Destroying Magic items with Fireballs ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Destroying Magic items with Fireballs ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Melik
08-29-06, 04:35 PM OK well this issue arose in my last game. My character, a gnome beguiler, got hit by 4 fireballs and failed his save on 2 of them. Well we just started using the fireball damagin gear etc. ((newish DM)) We debated some of the rules but then worked out most of them except what is the CL progression for the Wondorous Items that increase in Bonus I.e 2 4 6 8 etc. Is it the same base CL 8 or does it rise with level?

Ended up losing most of my gear except my armor and a cloak of resistance :( dang magical containers breaking with nice gear in them
Derren S.
08-29-06, 04:45 PM Don't forget that your gear only takes damage from area spells when you roll a 1, not when you generally fail a save.
Vegepygmy
08-29-06, 04:49 PM It's not limited to area spells, Derren. It's any magical attack that can harm objects.
Jerks
08-29-06, 04:52 PM If memory serves me correctly (which it often does not), items that progress in effectiveness have a minimum caster levels for each step up the chain. So a ring of wizbang +1 might have a minimum caster level 5th, while a ring of wizbang +2 might be caster level 8th.

Check each item description in the DMG for more detail and to see if I'm just making this all up.
Inigo Carmine
08-29-06, 06:28 PM Unless specifically targetted (ie shatter) or a spell that specifically harms equipment (mordenkainen's disjunction), equipment only takes damage when you roll a nat 1 on a reflex save. And even then, only one piece of equipment takes damage. The DMG has rules for this, and the table to find out which piece of equipment is damaged.
Nom
08-29-06, 07:23 PM Unless specifically targetted (ie shatter) or a spell that specifically harms equipment (mordenkainen's disjunction), equipment only takes damage when you roll a nat 1 on a reflex save. And even then, only one piece of equipment takes damage.... And even then, it gets a save. And even then, it still applies hardness and reduced energy damage as normal for an item.

Rules for affecting items are on PH pg 177, though might be duplicated in the DMG. Rules for applying damage to items are in PH chapter 9.
Melik
08-30-06, 08:42 AM unless the spell or effect says otherwise we were reading in one of the books a s well. Which fireball does state ignites all combustable materials on the person and low melting points melts. I did roll two ones, however, so I had to make saves and those failed =/ Can you point me to where the CL raises ? the book only had CL 8 under the italics littel blurbs below the item info. Thanks a million in advance!!
Nom
08-30-06, 09:10 AM unless the spell or effect says otherwise we were reading in one of the books a s well. Which fireball does state ignites all combustable materials on the person and low melting points melts.No, it doesn't. What fireball actually states is (PH pg 231, emphasis mine):
... Unattended objects also take this damage.

...

The fireball sets fire to combustible objects within the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, ... . If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier, ...Note those key words: "unattended objects". fireball neither explicitly or implicitly says that it overrides the normal rules for attended items. The later paragraph simply elaborates on unattended item damage.
I did roll two ones, however, so I had to make saves and those failed =/Well, worst case that's two items, one for each of the fireball that you rolled a natural 1 against. Although if one of those items was a heward's handy haversack or a bag of holding that might be unpleasant. Considering that such items are last on the list ("10th anything else"), you'd have to be near-naked for them to even be threatened.

Can you point me to where the CL raises ? the book only had CL 8 under the italics littel blurbs below the item info. Thanks a million in advance!!New paragraph for new question, please.
except what is the CL progression for the Wondorous Items that increase in Bonus I.e 2 4 6 8 etc. Is it the same base CL 8 or does it rise with level?You've just discovered one of the big problems with the "typical CL" figures in the DMG. They aren't the minimum CL (see DMG pg 215 errata), they're just a CL value that may or may not resemble the actual minimum CL.

For items which have a "creator's caster level must be 2x / 3x / ... the bonus", just use the minimum CL that matches that criteria and the minimum CL of spells used. For the ability score boosters, there is unfortunately no such rule. Thus, the minimum CL for any ability score booster is technically 3 (minimum needed for bull's strength or whatever).
Tequila_Sunrise
08-30-06, 09:48 AM Like Nom said, there's no CL progression for ability boosters...which is weird. (A lower level caster can create a +6 booster item but not a +5 weapon!?)

I wasn't aware of any rules about fireballs damaging equipment worn/held by the target. I always just wrote this weirdness off as just another idiosyncricy of magic, like the fact that Charm person can charm anybody below 8' tall but nobody above 8' tall. Doesn't make much sense but neither does the 'only 1 item gets burnt on a nat 1' rule.
tarkin
08-30-06, 10:51 AM The charm person thing is not a height, but a mental thing.

If a human gets a feet to make them over 8 ft tall, but still stays a human, they would be charmable.

Basically, creatures over 8ft tall 'evolved' from a different base creature than those under 8 ft tall.

Their minds are built differently, and charm person spells don't work on them.

That natural 1 thing is harder to explain.
Vegepygmy
08-30-06, 01:05 PM Unless specifically targetted (ie shatter) or a spell that specifically harms equipment (mordenkainen's disjunction), equipment only takes damage when you roll a nat 1 on a reflex save.Why do people insist on reading words into the rules that aren't there?

First, Derren S. says it's area spells, and now Inigo says it's "on a reflex save." Nope, it's any save you fail on a natural 1.

Now, will you all stop pressing my "nitpick" button, please? ;)
tarkin
08-30-06, 01:20 PM Most will saves don't affect objects.

Many Fort saves don't affect objects either.

But yes, it is 'any' save, not just the reflex ones.
Tequila_Sunrise
08-30-06, 02:29 PM The charm person thing is not a height, but a mental thing.

If a human gets a feet to make them over 8 ft tall, but still stays a human, they would be charmable.

Basically, creatures over 8ft tall 'evolved' from a different base creature than those under 8 ft tall.

Their minds are built differently, and charm person spells don't work on them.

That natural 1 thing is harder to explain.

Please don't nitpick because it doesn't add anything to the discussion. My point was that it doesn't make intuitive sense that a charm spell should work on most humanoids but doesn't apply to those that are abstractly defined as 'giants' whose 3 basic differences from other human-shaped creatures is their big size, great strength and stupidity. It's a spell idiosyncricy, like spells not damaging objects except in certain limited circumstances.
Melik
08-31-06, 09:19 AM So the list of items that we went down was done wrongly ? I rolled the failed saves then we proceeded to roll destructions save for all my combustables, I.e the Haversack my Headband, hand of the mage and a couple more items I forget. Even though fireball is AE it still only kills one magic item ?
Wren
08-31-06, 10:23 AM Could someone with the time please just give us a step by step break down on how it SHOULD be done. That'll solve the problem I think.
fatal error
08-31-06, 01:07 PM Items Surviving after a Saving Throw

Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal.

If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.

1) You roll a 1 on a save against a spell that can harm items.
2) You determine the four most likely to be damaged items.
3) Determine randomly (1d4) which item is affected.
4) That item rolls a saving throw against the spell.
5) That item takes the effects of whatever the spell does (assuming it failed the save).

At least, that's how it seems to work.
strenoth
08-31-06, 03:20 PM fatal error has it. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melik 08-29-06, 04:35 PM	OK well this issue arose in my last game. My character, a gnome beguiler, got hit by 4 fireballs and failed his save on 2 of them. Well we just started using the fireball damagin gear etc. ((newish DM)) We debated some of the rules but then worked out most of them except what is the CL progression for the Wondorous Items that increase in Bonus I.e 2 4 6 8 etc. Is it the same base CL 8 or does it rise with level? Ended up losing most of my gear except my armor and a cloak of resistance :( dang magical containers breaking with nice gear in them
Derren S. 08-29-06, 04:45 PM	Don't forget that your gear only takes damage from area spells when you roll a 1, not when you generally fail a save.
Vegepygmy 08-29-06, 04:49 PM	It's not limited to area spells, Derren. It's any magical attack that can harm objects.
Jerks 08-29-06, 04:52 PM	If memory serves me correctly (which it often does not), items that progress in effectiveness have a minimum caster levels for each step up the chain. So a ring of wizbang +1 might have a minimum caster level 5th, while a ring of wizbang +2 might be caster level 8th. Check each item description in the DMG for more detail and to see if I'm just making this all up.
Inigo Carmine 08-29-06, 06:28 PM	Unless specifically targetted (ie shatter) or a spell that specifically harms equipment (mordenkainen's disjunction), equipment only takes damage when you roll a nat 1 on a reflex save. And even then, only one piece of equipment takes damage. The DMG has rules for this, and the table to find out which piece of equipment is damaged.
Nom 08-29-06, 07:23 PM	Unless specifically targetted (ie shatter) or a spell that specifically harms equipment (mordenkainen's disjunction), equipment only takes damage when you roll a nat 1 on a reflex save. And even then, only one piece of equipment takes damage.... And even then, it gets a save. And even then, it still applies hardness and reduced energy damage as normal for an item. Rules for affecting items are on PH pg 177, though might be duplicated in the DMG. Rules for applying damage to items are in PH chapter 9.
Melik 08-30-06, 08:42 AM	unless the spell or effect says otherwise we were reading in one of the books a s well. Which fireball does state ignites all combustable materials on the person and low melting points melts. I did roll two ones, however, so I had to make saves and those failed =/ Can you point me to where the CL raises ? the book only had CL 8 under the italics littel blurbs below the item info. Thanks a million in advance!!
Nom 08-30-06, 09:10 AM	unless the spell or effect says otherwise we were reading in one of the books a s well. Which fireball does state ignites all combustable materials on the person and low melting points melts.No, it doesn't. What fireball actually states is (PH pg 231, emphasis mine): ... Unattended objects also take this damage. ... The fireball sets fire to combustible objects within the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, ... . If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier, ...Note those key words: "unattended objects". fireball neither explicitly or implicitly says that it overrides the normal rules for attended items. The later paragraph simply elaborates on unattended item damage. I did roll two ones, however, so I had to make saves and those failed =/Well, worst case that's two items, one for each of the fireball that you rolled a natural 1 against. Although if one of those items was a heward's handy haversack or a bag of holding that might be unpleasant. Considering that such items are last on the list ("10th anything else"), you'd have to be near-naked for them to even be threatened. Can you point me to where the CL raises ? the book only had CL 8 under the italics littel blurbs below the item info. Thanks a million in advance!!New paragraph for new question, please. except what is the CL progression for the Wondorous Items that increase in Bonus I.e 2 4 6 8 etc. Is it the same base CL 8 or does it rise with level?You've just discovered one of the big problems with the "typical CL" figures in the DMG. They aren't the minimum CL (see DMG pg 215 errata), they're just a CL value that may or may not resemble the actual minimum CL. For items which have a "creator's caster level must be 2x / 3x / ... the bonus", just use the minimum CL that matches that criteria and the minimum CL of spells used. For the ability score boosters, there is unfortunately no such rule. Thus, the minimum CL for any ability score booster is technically 3 (minimum needed for bull's strength or whatever).
Tequila_Sunrise 08-30-06, 09:48 AM	Like Nom said, there's no CL progression for ability boosters...which is weird. (A lower level caster can create a +6 booster item but not a +5 weapon!?) I wasn't aware of any rules about fireballs damaging equipment worn/held by the target. I always just wrote this weirdness off as just another idiosyncricy of magic, like the fact that Charm person can charm anybody below 8' tall but nobody above 8' tall. Doesn't make much sense but neither does the 'only 1 item gets burnt on a nat 1' rule.
tarkin 08-30-06, 10:51 AM	The charm person thing is not a height, but a mental thing. If a human gets a feet to make them over 8 ft tall, but still stays a human, they would be charmable. Basically, creatures over 8ft tall 'evolved' from a different base creature than those under 8 ft tall. Their minds are built differently, and charm person spells don't work on them. That natural 1 thing is harder to explain.
Vegepygmy 08-30-06, 01:05 PM	Unless specifically targetted (ie shatter) or a spell that specifically harms equipment (mordenkainen's disjunction), equipment only takes damage when you roll a nat 1 on a reflex save.Why do people insist on reading words into the rules that aren't there? First, Derren S. says it's area spells, and now Inigo says it's "on a reflex save." Nope, it's any save you fail on a natural 1. Now, will you all stop pressing my "nitpick" button, please? ;)
tarkin 08-30-06, 01:20 PM	Most will saves don't affect objects. Many Fort saves don't affect objects either. But yes, it is 'any' save, not just the reflex ones.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-30-06, 02:29 PM	The charm person thing is not a height, but a mental thing. If a human gets a feet to make them over 8 ft tall, but still stays a human, they would be charmable. Basically, creatures over 8ft tall 'evolved' from a different base creature than those under 8 ft tall. Their minds are built differently, and charm person spells don't work on them. That natural 1 thing is harder to explain. Please don't nitpick because it doesn't add anything to the discussion. My point was that it doesn't make intuitive sense that a charm spell should work on most humanoids but doesn't apply to those that are abstractly defined as 'giants' whose 3 basic differences from other human-shaped creatures is their big size, great strength and stupidity. It's a spell idiosyncricy, like spells not damaging objects except in certain limited circumstances.
Melik 08-31-06, 09:19 AM	So the list of items that we went down was done wrongly ? I rolled the failed saves then we proceeded to roll destructions save for all my combustables, I.e the Haversack my Headband, hand of the mage and a couple more items I forget. Even though fireball is AE it still only kills one magic item ?
Wren 08-31-06, 10:23 AM	Could someone with the time please just give us a step by step break down on how it SHOULD be done. That'll solve the problem I think.
fatal error 08-31-06, 01:07 PM	Items Surviving after a Saving Throw Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal. If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage. 1) You roll a 1 on a save against a spell that can harm items. 2) You determine the four most likely to be damaged items. 3) Determine randomly (1d4) which item is affected. 4) That item rolls a saving throw against the spell. 5) That item takes the effects of whatever the spell does (assuming it failed the save). At least, that's how it seems to work.
strenoth 08-31-06, 03:20 PM	fatal error has it. :)