Dex Penalty to AC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dex Penalty to AC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MasterOfPsychic
03-01-05, 05:44 PM I read the Monster Manual 2, and ended up looking at the Reason Stealer, they was pretty cool, and had a great AC: 5 (-5 Dex)

In other words, nothing but a dex of 1. Furthermore: Touch: 5 AC, Flat-footed: 5 AC...

But, when you are caugth flat-footed you loose your dex bonus to AC: in other words, it ough have 10 ac when caught flat-footed.

But, then again, Higher AC flat-footed than when not - Who would want Uncanny Dodge?

I just find it pretty funny that it is better to be caugh flat-footed if your Dex is low, dont you guys?
Inigo Carmine
03-01-05, 05:56 PM No, when you are caught flat footed you lose your dex bonus to AC. This things flat footed AC is still 5 then.
MasterOfPsychic
03-01-05, 06:04 PM Sure, that sounds more logical...
But anyway, it sounds unlogic that you can accually be easier to hit from less than NO dex... Think of it
evangelion1010
03-01-05, 08:38 PM Its been debated several times before, and the usual arguement is that while if unaware, quick characters can't react in a favorable way, clumsy characters somehow can, but only in an adverse way. This applies to armor and max dex bonuses too.

The example usually is an arrow hitting character A (high dex) and character B (low dex). Character A can react enough not to make himself easier to hit, while character B can't react at all, or in an attempt to get out of the way, he exposes himself more.

I personally don't think it makes sense, but rules wise thats the fairest way to do it.

If you wanted a different system, i'd say you subtract half your dex mod, rounded up from your AC. Either that or you could subtract a flat number, (like 4) meaning that the low dex character has a very good chance of being hit, and the high dex character has a slightly better chance than if he was flat footed.
chocobochicken
03-02-05, 08:23 AM But anyway, it sounds unlogic that you can accually be easier to hit from less than NO dex... Think of it

I think you are confusing the Dex bonus with the Dex score. A Dex penalty is not "less than no dex," it is less than average. Having no Dex at all means a Dex score of 0, in which case you cannot move at all -- you stand perfectly still.

In the situation of flat-footed AC, a flat-footed person still retains fluid motion and can react to a small degree against an attack, like instinctively flinching away at something caught in their peripheral vision. This is also why a flat-footed character could not be considered a helpless defender for the purpose of a coup de grace.
Egres
03-02-05, 09:14 AM In the situation of flat-footed AC, a flat-footed person still retains fluid motion and can react to a small degree against an attack, like instinctively flinching away at something caught in their peripheral vision. This is also why a flat-footed character could not be considered a helpless defender for the purpose of a coup de grace.Right.

Notice also that flat-footed character, with the Combat Reflexes feat, could even make AoO, in this way showing that they aren't helpless at all.
MasterOfPsychic
03-02-05, 09:52 AM I mean, does it make sense that a char that is flat-footed, EG. NO TRYING TO DODGE, dodges BETTER than a char with low dex trying to dodge....
Egres
03-02-05, 10:09 AM I mean, does it make sense that a char that is flat-footed, EG. NO TRYING TO DODGE, dodges BETTER than a char with low dex trying to dodge....
Incorrect.

He retains the abilty to dodge as a cha with a Dex score of 10.

He simply can't benefit of a high Dex score.

He's dodgin, but not better than the average human.
tarkin
03-02-05, 10:50 AM The basic problem is that WoTC wanted Dex AC to mathematically appear to work like the other stats, but set it up so that it really did not.

The truth is that your AC is NOT 10 + your (Dex -10)/2

Instead your AC is 5 + (Dex/2)

Clumsy people do NOT suddenly jump in front of the arrow - i.e. their dex does not force them to make themselves easier to hit. Instead, they are so clumsy that they can not even do the regular amount of dodging that an average person does to get the base AC of 10.
q'afuu
03-02-05, 10:55 AM I mean, does it make sense that a char that is flat-footed, EG. NO TRYING TO DODGE, dodges BETTER than a char with low dex trying to dodge.... Such a character isn't dodging. It's just benefiting from armour, miscellaneous bonuses and from the defense it's putting up (the base 10 AC). The low Dex char can't put up as good a defense, but that doesn't mean it's dodging any better.
Ogre4Hire
03-02-05, 02:29 PM The basic problem is that WoTC wanted Dex AC to mathematically appear to work like the other stats, but set it up so that it really did not.

The truth is that your AC is NOT 10 + your (Dex -10)/2

Instead your AC is 5 + (Dex/2)

Clumsy people do NOT suddenly jump in front of the arrow - i.e. their dex does not force them to make themselves easier to hit. Instead, they are so clumsy that they can not even do the regular amount of dodging that an average person does to get the base AC of 10.

Exactly.
MasterOfPsychic
03-02-05, 03:44 PM then, my only question is:
How can a guy that don't know he's getting hit at, use his dodging abillities enough to qualify for a dex of average?

I mean, if someone stabbed you in the back during the curch meeting, you would not be dodging even a little bit, no mather how much or little dex you have...
chocobochicken
03-02-05, 04:27 PM Because they're still capable of motion, and have the opportunity for a last-minute reaction to the attack.

An invisible attacker magically reappears just as he launches his attack, and the previously unaware target jerks a little as the attack is landed. A fighter who lost the initiative has just enough time to flinch, and an arrow bounces off his armor where his neck had been just a moment before. A goblin jumps out of the bushes to surprise a merchant traveler, who immediately panics on sight. And someone at a church meeting gives a startled jump when they feel something touch their back unexpectedly, possibly before the dagger has a chance to penetrate cloth and skin. In all these instances, the target can't react to his fullest ability, but he's certainly not standing still to make it any easier for the attacker to strike with certain precision.

And while these examples might not seem balanced at first, don't forget that other bonuses are often factored into these situations. The invisible attacker gets a +2 bonus to his attack because his opponent has less time to react than normal. And the church backstabber could possibly get a +2 circumstantial bonus to his attack, as the target does not consider himself in active combat and perhaps considered the attacker a friend.
gbnogkfs
03-05-05, 12:44 PM when the rules speak about "modifier", it's either the bonus or the penalty: "ignore the modifier" means you do not apply it, whatever it might be.

when the rules speak about "bonus", it's only the positive modifier: "ignore the bonus" means you do not apply the modifier if it's positive, but you do keep it if it's negative.
:teach:

Also check the strenght damage modifier for 2wf / 2hf :cool:
Egres
03-05-05, 04:57 PM when the rules speak about "modifier", it's either the bonus or the penalty: "ignore the modifier" means you do not apply it, whatever it might be.

when the rules speak about "bonus", it's only the positive modifier: "ignore the bonus" means you do not apply the modifier if it's positive, but you do keep it if it's negative.
:teach:

Also check the strenght damage modifier for 2wf / 2hf :cool:
gbnogkfs is right.

From the SRD:

The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasterOfPsychic 03-01-05, 05:44 PM	I read the Monster Manual 2, and ended up looking at the Reason Stealer, they was pretty cool, and had a great AC: 5 (-5 Dex) In other words, nothing but a dex of 1. Furthermore: Touch: 5 AC, Flat-footed: 5 AC... But, when you are caugth flat-footed you loose your dex bonus to AC: in other words, it ough have 10 ac when caught flat-footed. But, then again, Higher AC flat-footed than when not - Who would want Uncanny Dodge? I just find it pretty funny that it is better to be caugh flat-footed if your Dex is low, dont you guys?
Inigo Carmine 03-01-05, 05:56 PM	No, when you are caught flat footed you lose your dex bonus to AC. This things flat footed AC is still 5 then.
MasterOfPsychic 03-01-05, 06:04 PM	Sure, that sounds more logical... But anyway, it sounds unlogic that you can accually be easier to hit from less than NO dex... Think of it
evangelion1010 03-01-05, 08:38 PM	Its been debated several times before, and the usual arguement is that while if unaware, quick characters can't react in a favorable way, clumsy characters somehow can, but only in an adverse way. This applies to armor and max dex bonuses too. The example usually is an arrow hitting character A (high dex) and character B (low dex). Character A can react enough not to make himself easier to hit, while character B can't react at all, or in an attempt to get out of the way, he exposes himself more. I personally don't think it makes sense, but rules wise thats the fairest way to do it. If you wanted a different system, i'd say you subtract half your dex mod, rounded up from your AC. Either that or you could subtract a flat number, (like 4) meaning that the low dex character has a very good chance of being hit, and the high dex character has a slightly better chance than if he was flat footed.
chocobochicken 03-02-05, 08:23 AM	But anyway, it sounds unlogic that you can accually be easier to hit from less than NO dex... Think of it I think you are confusing the Dex bonus with the Dex score. A Dex penalty is not "less than no dex," it is less than average. Having no Dex at all means a Dex score of 0, in which case you cannot move at all -- you stand perfectly still. In the situation of flat-footed AC, a flat-footed person still retains fluid motion and can react to a small degree against an attack, like instinctively flinching away at something caught in their peripheral vision. This is also why a flat-footed character could not be considered a helpless defender for the purpose of a coup de grace.
Egres 03-02-05, 09:14 AM	In the situation of flat-footed AC, a flat-footed person still retains fluid motion and can react to a small degree against an attack, like instinctively flinching away at something caught in their peripheral vision. This is also why a flat-footed character could not be considered a helpless defender for the purpose of a coup de grace.Right. Notice also that flat-footed character, with the Combat Reflexes feat, could even make AoO, in this way showing that they aren't helpless at all.
MasterOfPsychic 03-02-05, 09:52 AM	I mean, does it make sense that a char that is flat-footed, EG. NO TRYING TO DODGE, dodges BETTER than a char with low dex trying to dodge....
Egres 03-02-05, 10:09 AM	I mean, does it make sense that a char that is flat-footed, EG. NO TRYING TO DODGE, dodges BETTER than a char with low dex trying to dodge.... Incorrect. He retains the abilty to dodge as a cha with a Dex score of 10. He simply can't benefit of a high Dex score. He's dodgin, but not better than the average human.
tarkin 03-02-05, 10:50 AM	The basic problem is that WoTC wanted Dex AC to mathematically appear to work like the other stats, but set it up so that it really did not. The truth is that your AC is NOT 10 + your (Dex -10)/2 Instead your AC is 5 + (Dex/2) Clumsy people do NOT suddenly jump in front of the arrow - i.e. their dex does not force them to make themselves easier to hit. Instead, they are so clumsy that they can not even do the regular amount of dodging that an average person does to get the base AC of 10.
q'afuu 03-02-05, 10:55 AM	I mean, does it make sense that a char that is flat-footed, EG. NO TRYING TO DODGE, dodges BETTER than a char with low dex trying to dodge.... Such a character isn't dodging. It's just benefiting from armour, miscellaneous bonuses and from the defense it's putting up (the base 10 AC). The low Dex char can't put up as good a defense, but that doesn't mean it's dodging any better.
Ogre4Hire 03-02-05, 02:29 PM	The basic problem is that WoTC wanted Dex AC to mathematically appear to work like the other stats, but set it up so that it really did not. The truth is that your AC is NOT 10 + your (Dex -10)/2 Instead your AC is 5 + (Dex/2) Clumsy people do NOT suddenly jump in front of the arrow - i.e. their dex does not force them to make themselves easier to hit. Instead, they are so clumsy that they can not even do the regular amount of dodging that an average person does to get the base AC of 10. Exactly.
MasterOfPsychic 03-02-05, 03:44 PM	then, my only question is: How can a guy that don't know he's getting hit at, use his dodging abillities enough to qualify for a dex of average? I mean, if someone stabbed you in the back during the curch meeting, you would not be dodging even a little bit, no mather how much or little dex you have...
chocobochicken 03-02-05, 04:27 PM	Because they're still capable of motion, and have the opportunity for a last-minute reaction to the attack. An invisible attacker magically reappears just as he launches his attack, and the previously unaware target jerks a little as the attack is landed. A fighter who lost the initiative has just enough time to flinch, and an arrow bounces off his armor where his neck had been just a moment before. A goblin jumps out of the bushes to surprise a merchant traveler, who immediately panics on sight. And someone at a church meeting gives a startled jump when they feel something touch their back unexpectedly, possibly before the dagger has a chance to penetrate cloth and skin. In all these instances, the target can't react to his fullest ability, but he's certainly not standing still to make it any easier for the attacker to strike with certain precision. And while these examples might not seem balanced at first, don't forget that other bonuses are often factored into these situations. The invisible attacker gets a +2 bonus to his attack because his opponent has less time to react than normal. And the church backstabber could possibly get a +2 circumstantial bonus to his attack, as the target does not consider himself in active combat and perhaps considered the attacker a friend.
gbnogkfs 03-05-05, 12:44 PM	when the rules speak about "modifier", it's either the bonus or the penalty: "ignore the modifier" means you do not apply it, whatever it might be. when the rules speak about "bonus", it's only the positive modifier: "ignore the bonus" means you do not apply the modifier if it's positive, but you do keep it if it's negative. :teach: Also check the strenght damage modifier for 2wf / 2hf :cool:
Egres 03-05-05, 04:57 PM	when the rules speak about "modifier", it's either the bonus or the penalty: "ignore the modifier" means you do not apply it, whatever it might be. when the rules speak about "bonus", it's only the positive modifier: "ignore the bonus" means you do not apply the modifier if it's positive, but you do keep it if it's negative. :teach: Also check the strenght damage modifier for 2wf / 2hf :cool: gbnogkfs is right. From the SRD: The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty.