Dexterity and Extra Actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dexterity and Extra Actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
barret3b
07-18-05, 01:55 AM I've always thought that if someone with incredible Dexterity should benifit from extra actions, somewhat like benfitting from the Haste spell. It makes sense, but would doing such a ting introduce balance problems? Wondering what people thought on this.
Androcus Divinicus
07-18-05, 01:59 AM I've always thought that if someone with incredible Dexterity should benifit from extra actions, somewhat like benfitting from the Haste spell.

You mean somewhat like benefitting from the Combat Reflexes Feat? You know what I think would be cool? If someone would invent a feat that'd let you make an extra number of AoO equal to your Dex modifier ... you know, because someone with incredible dexterity should benefit from it, shouldn't they?

Regards,
Justin.
James Wildspell
07-18-05, 02:16 AM I've always thought that if someone with incredible Dexterity should benefit from extra actions, somewhat like benefitting from the Haste spell. It makes sense, but would doing such a thing introduce balance problems? Wondering what people thought on this.

Combat Reflexes is a Feat that allows extra attacks of opportunity for high dexterity characters, and that is probably the best that you can find. As for any other extra actions in a combat round, not even the best dexterity score can alter the fact that you are talking about six seconds of time. :cool:

Higher dexterity already adds to initiative, and while that does not include any extra actions, it does make it more likely the high dexterity folks act first.
barret3b
07-18-05, 02:40 AM Yes I'm aware of both the feat and the the limit on time, but when I said incredible Dex, I mean incredible . Getting close to 40 and 50. Extra Attacks of opportunity hardly make up for the fact that the score is 4x to 5x that of a normal human and all you get is better aim and a better chance to go first.Heck, your land speed wouldn't even change. Likewise I think a penalty should be imposed on those with 1 and 2 Dexterity, you are steps away from being completely paralyzed and yet you can swing that Greatsword as well as you can on your best day?
Ranix
07-18-05, 03:07 AM Why do you need rules for something that should never, ever happen?

Seriously if a character in your campaign has 40 dex, you need to re-evaluate your playstyle. You don't have to be "epic" to be incredible, and you don't have to exceed the limit of the rules to have an "epic" campaign. Just lower the bar a little bit so the average person (even the average exceptional person) is far weaker than the players. If you just want more than you can do normally, just use the epic rules at levels 21-24.

IMHO, playing past 20 is silly. 40 dex is beyond silly. That's some dragonball Z bs right there. Is that even possible with a humanoid character?
James Wildspell
07-18-05, 03:13 AM Reflexes as represented by Dexterity scores do not alter time. Only magic can do that.
Vanigo
07-18-05, 03:13 AM Is that even possible with a humanoid character?
Yes. Very yes. Ask around on the CO boards; they've probably broken 100 on more than one occasion, pre-epic.
barret3b
07-18-05, 03:36 AM Well, I've been in some relatively high powered campaigns and have been playing for s short time(3-4 months). No, I'm not looking for some actual rule or reason to break a character to obscene heights, I just felt it made sense that having something that incredibly high would produce more than it does. I still don't see why being strong helps your aim(to a point, yes, but there should be a limit). >_>

So yeah, I guess I'll keep my newbie ideas to myself next time.
Bopple
07-18-05, 03:55 AM Yeah, your idea has some valid reasoning. Once, I had a similar idea.
But it's full of potential abuses, as you know.
Vaelan
07-18-05, 08:58 AM Dexterity is not speed.

Dexterity is hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance.

Please note that agility is not the same thing as speed, though they are often used as synonyms. Agility is the grace and efficiency of your movements.

If Dexterity were a measure of speed, Haste would increase your Dexterity.

Then there's the balance reasons. Dexterity is already one of the strongest stats.
barret3b
07-18-05, 09:13 AM Right, I see that now. I know that D&D is only a game, but why lump Speed as a racial thing? Running is in the freakin Olympics, kinda obvious all runners weren't made equal.
Bopple
07-18-05, 09:27 AM I guess, as you've said, because it is a game, and it is simpler.
Thorak
07-18-05, 10:09 AM Right, I see that now. I know that D&D is only a game, but why lump Speed as a racial thing? Running is in the freakin Olympics, kinda obvious all runners weren't made equal.
If speed translated to an ability, it wouldn't be Dex. It would be Strength. Strength is muscle power. Power to move your limbs faster than a weaker person. That's why you get bonuses to hit; not only can you smash through weaker blocks, you can actually swing your weapon and recover afterwards a great deal faster, meaning you spend less time out of balance and more time trying to smack the bad guy in the head.
Ranix
07-18-05, 12:55 PM If you were doing an Olympic type thing, the characters would be using the Run action, have special feats for it, and would probably be making Con checks for extended exertion.
BloodGod
07-18-05, 01:43 PM I see where you're coming from. Kind of like the concept. Except then you'd have to consider all the other high abilities. You could houserule it in your own campaign. Just make sure that if you give someone with an insane dex something, you give something to someone with a high intell or high str.

-BG
DisposableHero_
07-18-05, 02:01 PM IMHO, playing past 20 is silly. 40 dex is beyond silly. That's some dragonball Z bs right there. Is that even possible with a humanoid character?Yes. Very yes. Ask around on the CO boards; they've probably broken 100 on more than one occasion, pre-epic.
Too accentuate this point.

Tiefling Psion (egoist) 12 (ECL 13 character)

Metamorphosis into a Kelvezu setting your base dex to 30, Manifest Psychofeedback to increase your Dex by 10 while taking -2 to your other 5 ability scores. You have a dex of 40 at level 13 using only the SRD and no gear.

Now a Human Psion 20 under an evil greater visage of the deity then metamorphosised into a Kelvezu then put under the effects of Psychofeedback at 20th level, minute form, wearing gloves of dex +6 has a dexterity of 72, so as you can see Vanigo is not exaggerating by saying that 100 is easily within the realm of possibility.
Malibu Trojan
07-18-05, 02:53 PM Right, I see that now. I know that D&D is only a game, but why lump Speed as a racial thing? Running is in the freakin Olympics, kinda obvious all runners weren't made equal.
If two characters are in a race or one is chasing the other (and they have the same speed), the PHB (or maybe it was the DMG) says to make Dexterity checks to see who gets the advantage. If it's a long term race (days long), it says to use Constitution checks instead.

Dexterity doesn't allow you more actions, but it does make you harder to hit (higher AC), so it does tip the ratio of [ opponent's hits : your hits ] more in your favor; effectively, it's not more actions, but it's more hits.
barret3b
07-18-05, 06:02 PM If two characters are in a race or one is chasing the other (and they have the same speed), the PHB (or maybe it was the DMG) says to make Dexterity checks to see who gets the advantage. If it's a long term race (days long), it says to use Constitution checks instead.

This sounds interesting, does anyone know where this is for sure?

And the only reason I brought up the Olympics is the fact that running should of been dealt with on an individual basis. I would of given a racial intelligence before I gave a racial running speed.(No that it would be a good idea in the least, just making a point)
weasel fierce
07-18-05, 08:07 PM multiple attacks are handled by the BAB system, while other actions are not really considered much.

That being said, if you are regularly playing with elements that are way outside the scope of the published game, just make up what you need. Maybe 1 action per full 25 or 30 points ?
Alternatively, you could make it 1 per 10 points of Dexterity above 25 ?
StevenO
07-18-05, 11:45 PM If you want to relate speed and Dexterity I would do so by using the the Dex modifier as a modifier to the base speed of a characters with average Dex. I'd also round all speed down to the nearest 5 feet so you don't actually start getting a speed bonus until your dex is racial average + 10. That means a human with Dex 20 has a base move 35 but an elf needs Dex 22 to match that speed. Using racial averages keep this bonus balanced for creatures that are naturally fast and dexterous. If for you dex is 10 below racial average you slow down 5' as well to a minimum of 5'.

As for taking extra actions I'm against that as a high dex already has more advantages than any other ability score.
Malibu Trojan
07-20-05, 12:33 AM This sounds interesting, does anyone know where this is for sure?
Ah, I found it: page 20 of the DMG, under "Evasion and Pursuit." I won't quote it here, I've got things to do tonight and don't have time to type it up :D
James Wildspell
07-20-05, 01:17 AM A long time ago, in a game far, far away, I came up with a "footrace" speed. Please note that this formula is not intended to change the movement rate for any creature, and it only applies to Humanoid, Medium creatures. I have modified it here for 3.5, rather than AD&D.
________________________________________ ___________________________
Dash Speed = 30 + 1/2 Dex modifier + Str modifier +/- d3
Miler Speed = 30 + Str modifier + 1/2 Con modifier +/- d2
Distance Runner Speed = 30 + Con modifier + 1/2 Str modifier +/- 1

All negative modifiers are doubled.
Dash = up to 3x normal movement rate distance
Miler = distances above Dash, up to 2 miles
Distance Runner = over Miler distance to 6 miles
________________________________________ ___________________________
That is my stab at the numbers for competetive running. It doesn't directly respond to the O.P., but may help in the "Olympics" scenario. And I may take another stab at the numbers later, but it is very late, and I need some sleep. :cool:
barret3b
07-20-05, 03:56 PM Wow, thanks for the ideas everyone, and thanks for the page on pursuit, they are all quite helpful. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
barret3b 07-18-05, 01:55 AM	I've always thought that if someone with incredible Dexterity should benifit from extra actions, somewhat like benfitting from the Haste spell. It makes sense, but would doing such a ting introduce balance problems? Wondering what people thought on this.
Androcus Divinicus 07-18-05, 01:59 AM	I've always thought that if someone with incredible Dexterity should benifit from extra actions, somewhat like benfitting from the Haste spell. You mean somewhat like benefitting from the Combat Reflexes Feat? You know what I think would be cool? If someone would invent a feat that'd let you make an extra number of AoO equal to your Dex modifier ... you know, because someone with incredible dexterity should benefit from it, shouldn't they? Regards, Justin.
James Wildspell 07-18-05, 02:16 AM	I've always thought that if someone with incredible Dexterity should benefit from extra actions, somewhat like benefitting from the Haste spell. It makes sense, but would doing such a thing introduce balance problems? Wondering what people thought on this. Combat Reflexes is a Feat that allows extra attacks of opportunity for high dexterity characters, and that is probably the best that you can find. As for any other extra actions in a combat round, not even the best dexterity score can alter the fact that you are talking about six seconds of time. :cool: Higher dexterity already adds to initiative, and while that does not include any extra actions, it does make it more likely the high dexterity folks act first.
barret3b 07-18-05, 02:40 AM	Yes I'm aware of both the feat and the the limit on time, but when I said incredible Dex, I mean incredible . Getting close to 40 and 50. Extra Attacks of opportunity hardly make up for the fact that the score is 4x to 5x that of a normal human and all you get is better aim and a better chance to go first.Heck, your land speed wouldn't even change. Likewise I think a penalty should be imposed on those with 1 and 2 Dexterity, you are steps away from being completely paralyzed and yet you can swing that Greatsword as well as you can on your best day?
Ranix 07-18-05, 03:07 AM	Why do you need rules for something that should never, ever happen? Seriously if a character in your campaign has 40 dex, you need to re-evaluate your playstyle. You don't have to be "epic" to be incredible, and you don't have to exceed the limit of the rules to have an "epic" campaign. Just lower the bar a little bit so the average person (even the average exceptional person) is far weaker than the players. If you just want more than you can do normally, just use the epic rules at levels 21-24. IMHO, playing past 20 is silly. 40 dex is beyond silly. That's some dragonball Z bs right there. Is that even possible with a humanoid character?
James Wildspell 07-18-05, 03:13 AM	Reflexes as represented by Dexterity scores do not alter time. Only magic can do that.
Vanigo 07-18-05, 03:13 AM	Is that even possible with a humanoid character? Yes. Very yes. Ask around on the CO boards; they've probably broken 100 on more than one occasion, pre-epic.
barret3b 07-18-05, 03:36 AM	Well, I've been in some relatively high powered campaigns and have been playing for s short time(3-4 months). No, I'm not looking for some actual rule or reason to break a character to obscene heights, I just felt it made sense that having something that incredibly high would produce more than it does. I still don't see why being strong helps your aim(to a point, yes, but there should be a limit). >_> So yeah, I guess I'll keep my newbie ideas to myself next time.
Bopple 07-18-05, 03:55 AM	Yeah, your idea has some valid reasoning. Once, I had a similar idea. But it's full of potential abuses, as you know.
Vaelan 07-18-05, 08:58 AM	Dexterity is not speed. Dexterity is hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance. Please note that agility is not the same thing as speed, though they are often used as synonyms. Agility is the grace and efficiency of your movements. If Dexterity were a measure of speed, Haste would increase your Dexterity. Then there's the balance reasons. Dexterity is already one of the strongest stats.
barret3b 07-18-05, 09:13 AM	Right, I see that now. I know that D&D is only a game, but why lump Speed as a racial thing? Running is in the freakin Olympics, kinda obvious all runners weren't made equal.
Bopple 07-18-05, 09:27 AM	I guess, as you've said, because it is a game, and it is simpler.
Thorak 07-18-05, 10:09 AM	Right, I see that now. I know that D&D is only a game, but why lump Speed as a racial thing? Running is in the freakin Olympics, kinda obvious all runners weren't made equal. If speed translated to an ability, it wouldn't be Dex. It would be Strength. Strength is muscle power. Power to move your limbs faster than a weaker person. That's why you get bonuses to hit; not only can you smash through weaker blocks, you can actually swing your weapon and recover afterwards a great deal faster, meaning you spend less time out of balance and more time trying to smack the bad guy in the head.
Ranix 07-18-05, 12:55 PM	If you were doing an Olympic type thing, the characters would be using the Run action, have special feats for it, and would probably be making Con checks for extended exertion.
BloodGod 07-18-05, 01:43 PM	I see where you're coming from. Kind of like the concept. Except then you'd have to consider all the other high abilities. You could houserule it in your own campaign. Just make sure that if you give someone with an insane dex something, you give something to someone with a high intell or high str. -BG
DisposableHero_ 07-18-05, 02:01 PM	IMHO, playing past 20 is silly. 40 dex is beyond silly. That's some dragonball Z bs right there. Is that even possible with a humanoid character?Yes. Very yes. Ask around on the CO boards; they've probably broken 100 on more than one occasion, pre-epic. Too accentuate this point. Tiefling Psion (egoist) 12 (ECL 13 character) Metamorphosis into a Kelvezu setting your base dex to 30, Manifest Psychofeedback to increase your Dex by 10 while taking -2 to your other 5 ability scores. You have a dex of 40 at level 13 using only the SRD and no gear. Now a Human Psion 20 under an evil greater visage of the deity then metamorphosised into a Kelvezu then put under the effects of Psychofeedback at 20th level, minute form, wearing gloves of dex +6 has a dexterity of 72, so as you can see Vanigo is not exaggerating by saying that 100 is easily within the realm of possibility.
Malibu Trojan 07-18-05, 02:53 PM	Right, I see that now. I know that D&D is only a game, but why lump Speed as a racial thing? Running is in the freakin Olympics, kinda obvious all runners weren't made equal. If two characters are in a race or one is chasing the other (and they have the same speed), the PHB (or maybe it was the DMG) says to make Dexterity checks to see who gets the advantage. If it's a long term race (days long), it says to use Constitution checks instead. Dexterity doesn't allow you more actions, but it does make you harder to hit (higher AC), so it does tip the ratio of [ opponent's hits : your hits ] more in your favor; effectively, it's not more actions, but it's more hits.
barret3b 07-18-05, 06:02 PM	If two characters are in a race or one is chasing the other (and they have the same speed), the PHB (or maybe it was the DMG) says to make Dexterity checks to see who gets the advantage. If it's a long term race (days long), it says to use Constitution checks instead. This sounds interesting, does anyone know where this is for sure? And the only reason I brought up the Olympics is the fact that running should of been dealt with on an individual basis. I would of given a racial intelligence before I gave a racial running speed.(No that it would be a good idea in the least, just making a point)
weasel fierce 07-18-05, 08:07 PM	multiple attacks are handled by the BAB system, while other actions are not really considered much. That being said, if you are regularly playing with elements that are way outside the scope of the published game, just make up what you need. Maybe 1 action per full 25 or 30 points ? Alternatively, you could make it 1 per 10 points of Dexterity above 25 ?
StevenO 07-18-05, 11:45 PM	If you want to relate speed and Dexterity I would do so by using the the Dex modifier as a modifier to the base speed of a characters with average Dex. I'd also round all speed down to the nearest 5 feet so you don't actually start getting a speed bonus until your dex is racial average + 10. That means a human with Dex 20 has a base move 35 but an elf needs Dex 22 to match that speed. Using racial averages keep this bonus balanced for creatures that are naturally fast and dexterous. If for you dex is 10 below racial average you slow down 5' as well to a minimum of 5'. As for taking extra actions I'm against that as a high dex already has more advantages than any other ability score.
Malibu Trojan 07-20-05, 12:33 AM	This sounds interesting, does anyone know where this is for sure? Ah, I found it: page 20 of the DMG, under "Evasion and Pursuit." I won't quote it here, I've got things to do tonight and don't have time to type it up :D
James Wildspell 07-20-05, 01:17 AM	A long time ago, in a game far, far away, I came up with a "footrace" speed. Please note that this formula is not intended to change the movement rate for any creature, and it only applies to Humanoid, Medium creatures. I have modified it here for 3.5, rather than AD&D. ________________________________________ ___________________________ Dash Speed = 30 + 1/2 Dex modifier + Str modifier +/- d3 Miler Speed = 30 + Str modifier + 1/2 Con modifier +/- d2 Distance Runner Speed = 30 + Con modifier + 1/2 Str modifier +/- 1 All negative modifiers are doubled. Dash = up to 3x normal movement rate distance Miler = distances above Dash, up to 2 miles Distance Runner = over Miler distance to 6 miles ________________________________________ ___________________________ That is my stab at the numbers for competetive running. It doesn't directly respond to the O.P., but may help in the "Olympics" scenario. And I may take another stab at the numbers later, but it is very late, and I need some sleep. :cool:
barret3b 07-20-05, 03:56 PM	Wow, thanks for the ideas everyone, and thanks for the page on pursuit, they are all quite helpful. :D