Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jason Snyder 08-25-05, 08:59 AM	It is evident that the concept of "flat footed AC" is meant to indicate what a character's AC is without the ability to dodge blows. In other words, the character is standing there, fairly immobile, and the only thing resisting attacks is the target's natural/worn armor. Fair enough. If one has a low dexterity, they take a penalty to AC, presumably because they are clumsy in dodging out of the way. Fair enough. But wait, lets think about this. Fighter A (dex 10, breastplate) is flat footed and is just standing there. His AC is (10 + 3) = 13. Fighter B (dex 5, breastplate) is NOT flat footed and is trying to dodge. His AC is (10+3-3) = 10 The only way to interpret this is that not only is a low dex person not good at dodging - he's actively dodging INTO enemy attacks! 1) I point this out primarily because it's silly. It's one thing to not be good at getting out of the way, it's another to jump into sword blows. Even moving around randomly and spasmodically is bound to be harder to hit than standing motionless. 2) the rules say that being flat footed results in you losing your dex bonus. Does this also mean you lose your dex penalty? The only thing sillier than actively dodging into attacks is doing so when your compatriots are all surprised and not dodging. e.g. The giant spider drops from above onto the party, as the rogue, bard, ranger all stand there surprised and immobile, the equally surprised but clumsy warrior actively leaps into the spiders mouth. Odd. 3) Ok so lets say that to avoid the silliness of #2, we say that when a person if flat footed, they don't take their dex penalty. The target in question is just standing there (just like people with dex bonuses) and has to rely on natural/worn armor. If that's the case, the guy with the dex penalty has a motivation to always be flat-footed. Why couldn't he just not try to dodge and just stand there immobile? Of course, one could argue that no one could steel themselves to just stand there when a blow is coming, but the clumsy guy still has a motivation to find some way to immobilize themselves and lose their dex penalty. 4) Does the maximum dex bonus from heavy armor also apply to the maximum negative dex penalty? I don't see an explicit ruling, but I assume that the answer is no. But is that fair? Heavy armor has a maximum dex bonus presumably because a person can't dodge well while wearing heavy armor. Fair enough. But if they couldn't dodge out of the way due to high dex, they shouldn't be able to jump into the way with a low dex. I.e. if Splint mail (max dex bonus 0) is so heavy and clumsy that a speedy guy can't dodge in it, then how is it flexible enough that a guy with a 3 dex takes a big AC penalty for his clumsiness? He must be really determined to be able to squeeze out -4 ac when the armor is so heavy that most people can't dodge in it. I know the answer to all these points are game balance, game balance, game balance. The other answer is "fireballs aren't real either, so don't complain about unrealistic rules". But come on, that's kinda silly. Jason
primemover003 08-25-05, 09:47 AM	Firstly a Breastplate provides a +5 armor bonus, not +3 (that's it's max dex). You never lose a Penalty to Dex, you only lose the Bonus to Dex when flat footed... so yes a Clumbsy person is going to be easier to hit while flatfooted. That's why it's called a Penalty. A character with a Dex penalty isn't leaping into blows, that visualization is what is silly here. They're just extraordinarily easy to hit. Flat-footed or not they're gonna have a lower Ac than normal due to their suboptimal Dex score. No Armor's Max Dex does not have a lower limit. Again creatures with low Dex are not Jumping in the way of blows, they're just incredibly easy to hit.
Nom 08-25-05, 09:56 AM	Firstly, it's a mechanic, not a model. Game balance and playability is more important than "reality". Note that even a flat-footed opponent has limited ablity to dodge, and is assumed to do so. Compare with helpless AC, which is Dex of 0 (-5) and an additional -4 penalty. Even when you are flat-footed, you are making some attempt to avoid the blow. Some people are naturally clumsy, and will mis-read, mis-judge or otherwise make it worse for themselves. Or maybe they are just quite slow to respond. Others are extremely quick. That sudden pause before your adrenaline kicks in is obviously a much greater penalty for those who are naturally good at dodging than for those who don't dodge much anyway. Why cap it at +0? It's as good a number as any, and few PCs will have a Dex below 10, and fewer below 8.
q'afuu 08-25-05, 10:03 AM	Fighter A (dex 10, breastplate) is flat footed and is just standing there. His AC is (10 + 3) = 13. Fighter B (dex 5, breastplate) is NOT flat footed and is trying to dodge. His AC is (10+3-3) = 10 The only way to interpret this is that not only is a low dex person not good at dodging - he's actively dodging INTO enemy attacks! Your comparison is a bit off. Compare fighter B when not flatfooted and using his Dexterity for defense to his best ability (AC 12, breastplate gives +5 to AC) with fighter B when flatfooted and therefore not using his Dexterity for defense, at least not to his best ability (exact same AC). Since their ACs are the same, you can hardly conclude that trying to use his Dex is actually lowering the fighter's AC. It doesn't actually do anything, because he's so inept at it.
Inigo Carmine 08-25-05, 10:22 AM	The only way to interpret this is that not only is a low dex person not good at dodging - he's actively dodging INTO enemy attacks! As others have pointed out, this is where your misconception is. The easiest you are to hit in D&D is when your dex is 0 (you are completely immobile). Someone dodging into your blows would make them even easier to hit, therefore for someone to be actively dodging into blows, they would actually have to have a negative dex score, not just a negative dex modifier.
Jason Snyder 08-25-05, 11:45 AM	Yep, I'm wrong as far as my examples and the rules go. I thought that flatfooted meant that you couldn't really dodge at all. Oops. :embarrass That explains most of my misunderstanding, but here's another weirdness: A silenced, invisible rogue, sneaks up behind a completely unsuspecting guard who is standing there perfectly still. He attacks the guard who's completely oblivious. The guard uses his flat-footed AC, which apparently (according to the posts above) involve some minimum of dodging. How? Psychic powers detecting the rogue's blade coming for him? If the guard truly has no idea that the rogue is there and that the blade is coming, his effective dex should be 0. Note, I realize that those are the rules and that's just the way it is, I'm just observing an oddity. Jason
Inigo Carmine 08-25-05, 12:12 PM	here's another weirdness: A silenced, invisible rogue, sneaks up behind a completely unsuspecting guard who is standing there perfectly still. He attacks the guard who's completely oblivious. The guard uses his flat-footed AC, which apparently (according to the posts above) involve some minimum of dodging. How? Psychic powers detecting the rogue's blade coming for him? If the guard truly has no idea that the rogue is there and that the blade is coming, his effective dex should be 0. Note, I realize that those are the rules and that's just the way it is, I'm just observing an oddity. Jason If the rogue was silenced, the guard actualy should notice him coming when all of the sudden everything goes completely quiet. He wouldn't be able to find the rogue, but he would realize something was about to go down. A guard that stands completely rigidly still is not very effective, and probably just for show. If someone was stupid enough to try and guard like that, I probably would allow the attacker a bonus ontop of the normal ones, or a "competance penalty" to the person standing stock still. Also, the rogue in your case gets an extra +2 to hit for being invisible, because it's even harder to dodge your attacks.
q'afuu 08-25-05, 12:22 PM	That explains most of my misunderstanding, but here's another weirdness: A silenced, invisible rogue, sneaks up behind a completely unsuspecting guard who is standing there perfectly still. If he's standing *perfectly still*, you could treat him as paralyzed for purposes of Dex to AC (Dex 0, -5 to AC). ;) Anyway, even a completely unsuspecting and utterly surprized guard has a chance to react instinctively when the rogue strikes. More to the point, guards usually don't pretend to be statues (barring being on duty outside Buckingham Palace or something).
TLStarfighter 08-25-05, 12:25 PM	Dexterity is also a measure of how you move and carry yourself. A character with a dexterity penalty is especially bad at this. They are more likely to stumble, more likely to slouch, and more likely to simply leave vulnerable parts of their body open to attack, because they lack they grace, poise, and fluidity of movement that even characters with a dex score of 10 seem to posses.
ShinAkuma2 08-25-05, 12:37 PM	Note that you act as if your Dex score is no higher than 10 when you're flat-footed (hence no higher than 0 bonus). This basically means you can dodge no faster than an average human (given that an average human has 10-11 down the board). So, when flat-footed, you cannot act any faster than an average human would, due to surprise. If your dex is extremely low, then you just move that much slower.