Diabolical! I'm being trip-locked! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Diabolical! I'm being trip-locked! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Spike_Fightwicky
02-23-06, 06:29 PM What are some decent ways to get out of being tripped? It seems as though I'm out of the battle as soon as I'm tripped.... If I get up, I provoke an AoO. If I crawl away, I provoke an AoO. If I just sit on my rump and pray for mercy, I'll likely get attacked at a -4 penalty to my AC. I can attack, but at a -4 penalty. Not only that, but it's likely that the one that tripped me can improved trip me on the AoO and waste my action. It seems not worth it to even TRY to do any action at all, and hope the enemy somehow moves out of reach.

Other than the "Attack while prone" feat, are there any other alternatives that might help? Suggestions for both PCs and NPCs would be helpful. It just seems like a very dull way to spend an encounter. It gets worse with monsters (or even players I suppose) that have Combat Reflexes. They can keep the entire opposing force tripped as long as they're within reach (which is likely, since doing anything that gets them out of reach will likely provoke an AoO and get them tripped again).
gimby
02-23-06, 06:37 PM Try the Prone Attack feat (CW)

Also note that as the AOO interupts your action you cannot be tripped while standing up.
Process is

Attempt to stand - Provoke AOO (still prone)
Attacker resolves AOO against prone target (gets +4 to hit as normal)
Target completes action (stands)

The only way to keep someone down is ready an action for them standing up.
Alcalientre
02-23-06, 07:56 PM Spike - he's wrong about the second part, like you probably already know. If someone trips you again on an attack of opportunity, you do fall back down.

I don't really have any suggestions. I don't know how to get out of all the ill effects of being tripped, aside from avoiding it in the first place.
Silimaure
02-23-06, 08:16 PM You realize that he can't trip you with an AoO you provoke from trying to get up? The AoO is before you stand.
Feroz
02-23-06, 08:17 PM Spike - he's wrong about the second part, like you probably already know. If someone trips you again on an attack of opportunity, you do fall back down.

I don't really have any suggestions. I don't know how to get out of all the ill effects of being tripped, aside from avoiding it in the first place.

Being tripped from the AoO does trip you up, but immediately after that, your getting up from prone happens, so you get back to your feet anyways. Either way, you end up back on your feet after you take the action to stand up.
WunderGoat
02-23-06, 08:26 PM Alcalientre, gimby is right. AoOs resolve before the action gets completed, and in this case, the person trying to get up is still on the ground and thus cannot get tripped. If it was the way you say it is, then spellcasters would get their spells off before taking the AoO, which obviously is not the case. That said, tripping is very very powerful. It robs your opponent of full round actions while you gain an attack and get to keep making full attacks without penalty. Downside is, trip does not work well against things bigger or stronger than you, and you generally have to use an weapon that is inferior at dealing damage.

Just a thought, you can get imp. grapple and take your opponent down next to you. Then you are both on the ground, but you probably have the advantage. The prone attack penalty only applies to the grab check, which is touch anyways. The grapple check is not subject to this penalty, as it is not an attack.
Feor
02-23-06, 08:35 PM Also, I don't know how permissible it is by RaW, but if I was your DM, nad you got knocked prone, and announced on your next turn "I take a swipe at his ankles" I'd certainly let you do it with no penalties. Trying to swing your weapon along at ground level to knock over your opponent isn't going to take much skill. Heck, I'd probably even let you roll against his Touch AC since you're not actually trying to get through any armor.
Birrak
02-23-06, 08:41 PM As a house rule I allow my players to stand without provoking AoO if they have attack prone feat and kip up.
Basis is they can get up quickly and go defensive while doing so.
gimby
02-23-06, 08:44 PM Just to confirm, from the FAQ:

When a character gets up from prone, when does the
attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone?
When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to
attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit.
In the other, he can make another trip attack.

All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that
trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When
you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s
getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot
be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after
he gets up, however.
Alcalientre
02-23-06, 09:10 PM Oh well. I guess by the rules I'm wrong, but whatever the RAW or FAQ says, if you get your feat knocked out from under you while standing up in my games, you would fall back down again.
Ashok_Lal
02-23-06, 09:20 PM Birrak As a house rule I allow my players to stand without provoking AoO if they have attack prone feat and kip up.
Basis is they can get up quickly and go defensive while doing so.

This is not a house rule having prone fighting allows you to avoid the -4 on AC and kip up entitles you to stand up as a free action without a AoO.
Darkwolf_childe
02-23-06, 10:56 PM Well, if you want to avoid the whole getting-tripped-then-tripped-some-more fiasco I'd suggest that your PC learn to tumble, stay out of trip range, use cover (or magic such as Bigby's hands spells) or get a polearm and take some of the polearm feats described in the Dragon Compendium which give you bonuses to balancing and resisting trip attacks. Dwarves are also good.
Black Mantha
02-24-06, 07:05 AM Even if the AoO from standing up trips you again, you can still crawl away, right? You might be damaged, but it doesn't interrupt the action. Then you can take another move action to stand up outside of threatened space. The problem is where he then charges and trips you again...
Spike_Fightwicky
02-24-06, 08:10 AM Looks like we were doing it wrong. The way we were doing it, the AoO happened not so much before the action happened, but as it was happening (just before finishing). We figured the the act that provoked the AoO provoked it during the action but before it finishes, not before (logically, if I'm trying to stand up, he attacks me as I'm trying standing up, not right before I attempt to stand up, thus if he trips me, I'm right back on the ground).

Of course now this seems a whole lot easier to deal with now :D (Not that it's remotely easy... a dire wolf still ruins entire turns). Thanks for your help everyone!
Alcalientre
02-24-06, 12:06 PM We figured the the act that provoked the AoO provoked it during the action but before it finishes, not before (logically, if I'm trying to stand up, he attacks me as I'm trying standing up, not right before I attempt to stand up, thus if he trips me, I'm right back on the ground).

See, this makes sense, and this is how I play, whatever the rules say. Why would the opponent AoO you if you haven't moved yet?

So, how it is is like this right?
1)You start the action
2)Opponent starts AoO
3)Opponent finishes AoO
4)You finish the action

Now, if the opponent starts reacting right after you start your action, theres a good chance that you'll finish your action before he actually hits you. Logically, it would be like this
1)You start the action
2)Opponent starts AoO
3)You finish the action
4)Opponent finishes AoO

That makes more sense to me, I don't know about everyone else.
jaelis
02-24-06, 12:18 PM See, this makes sense, and this is how I play, whatever the rules say. Why would the opponent AoO you if you haven't moved yet?

So, how it is is like this right?
1)You start the action
2)Opponent starts AoO
3)Opponent finishes AoO
4)You finish the action

Now, if the opponent starts reacting right after you start your action, theres a good chance that you'll finish your action before he actually hits you. Logically, it would be like this
1)You start the action
2)Opponent starts AoO
3)You finish the action
4)Opponent finishes AoO

That makes more sense to me, I don't know about everyone else.

Well, you could do it that way, but as pointed out earlier, spellcasters would get their spell off before your AoO had a chance to disrupt them.
And you couldn't attack a character moving away from you, because he would be gone before your attack landed. I think the game plays better the way it is.

Don't worry about the realism to much, this is all kind of an abstraction anyway.
Alcalientre
02-24-06, 12:49 PM Yeah, I see your point. It makes sense one way sometimes and the other way the rest of the time. Since WotC is obviously not going to devote pages to exactly how AoO's work in every possible situation, I guess they had to make a general rule, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go by it when it doesn't make sense.
mvincent
02-24-06, 12:58 PM Oh well. I guess by the rules I'm wrong, but whatever the RAW or FAQ says, if you get your feat knocked out from under you while standing up in my games, you would fall back down again.As always: play as you like. But at least note that this house rule could allow some unbalancing side effects which you may not have considered.

Example: AoO's are most commonly provoked by an opponent moving out of a threatened area. If these were conducted after the provoking action, many of them would be invalidated (since they now couldn't reach the target).
tarkin
02-24-06, 01:32 PM And even just using your own house rule that an AoO can trip someone when they get up so that they stay down, that itself is INCREDIBALLY abusive.

Trip is already a powerfull ability, as shown by the guy's response above. You trip someone then all your allies (and your additional attacks) at +4 to hit.

If you let a trip on someone getting up knock them down again, then Trip just became an EPIC power feat. You trip them once and then they stay down.

Combined with Improved Trip, you get a free attack after you trip someone, so it becomes:

Trip and take free attack at +4 to hit.
They try to get up, you trip them again, then take a free attack at +4 to hit.
Then they can't get up, and have already used up their move action, so they are screwed and only get a single attack on you.
You take your FULL attack on them.

continue forever.

Trip is super-strong already, house ruling to make it stronger than it is, is something that only a Power Gamer would consider (not that there is anything wrong with being a Power Gamer - just be aware of what you are doing.)
InkBlot
02-24-06, 02:10 PM While prone you can tumble 5 feet away, out of the reach of most creatures, as a move action. You can always crawl 5 feet as a move action while prone, and the DC for tumbling full-speed (5 feet in this case) is 25. The downside is that this practically ends your turn.

Also consider that, since getting up from prone is a move-equivalent action instead of actual movement, after standing up you can still five-foot-step. So stand up, five-foot-step away, and throw a tanglefoot bag on your enemy so he/she/it can't five-foot-step up to you. A touch attack is easy to make, and even if your enemy saves vs. being glued to the floor it/she/he still can't 5-foot-step because of the movement penalty.

Alternatively, a common house-rule is to allow a person to get up without provoking an AoO if they do it as a full round action.
Saric
02-24-06, 02:16 PM Steadfast boots in the arms and equipment guide... immunity to trips/bull rush

happy gaming!
zelf_gale
02-24-06, 03:27 PM The special combat options in the PHB for increasing your AC when attacking at a penalty or not attacking at all may help you get back on your feet without taking any hits.
mvincent
02-24-06, 04:11 PM Another tip is to have your highest AC character provoke the AoO from the tripper so that it is not available when you try to stand (assuming they don't have combat reflexes).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spike_Fightwicky 02-23-06, 06:29 PM	What are some decent ways to get out of being tripped? It seems as though I'm out of the battle as soon as I'm tripped.... If I get up, I provoke an AoO. If I crawl away, I provoke an AoO. If I just sit on my rump and pray for mercy, I'll likely get attacked at a -4 penalty to my AC. I can attack, but at a -4 penalty. Not only that, but it's likely that the one that tripped me can improved trip me on the AoO and waste my action. It seems not worth it to even TRY to do any action at all, and hope the enemy somehow moves out of reach. Other than the "Attack while prone" feat, are there any other alternatives that might help? Suggestions for both PCs and NPCs would be helpful. It just seems like a very dull way to spend an encounter. It gets worse with monsters (or even players I suppose) that have Combat Reflexes. They can keep the entire opposing force tripped as long as they're within reach (which is likely, since doing anything that gets them out of reach will likely provoke an AoO and get them tripped again).
gimby 02-23-06, 06:37 PM	Try the Prone Attack feat (CW) Also note that as the AOO interupts your action you cannot be tripped while standing up. Process is Attempt to stand - Provoke AOO (still prone) Attacker resolves AOO against prone target (gets +4 to hit as normal) Target completes action (stands) The only way to keep someone down is ready an action for them standing up.
Alcalientre 02-23-06, 07:56 PM	Spike - he's wrong about the second part, like you probably already know. If someone trips you again on an attack of opportunity, you do fall back down. I don't really have any suggestions. I don't know how to get out of all the ill effects of being tripped, aside from avoiding it in the first place.
Silimaure 02-23-06, 08:16 PM	You realize that he can't trip you with an AoO you provoke from trying to get up? The AoO is before you stand.
Feroz 02-23-06, 08:17 PM	Spike - he's wrong about the second part, like you probably already know. If someone trips you again on an attack of opportunity, you do fall back down. I don't really have any suggestions. I don't know how to get out of all the ill effects of being tripped, aside from avoiding it in the first place. Being tripped from the AoO does trip you up, but immediately after that, your getting up from prone happens, so you get back to your feet anyways. Either way, you end up back on your feet after you take the action to stand up.
WunderGoat 02-23-06, 08:26 PM	Alcalientre, gimby is right. AoOs resolve before the action gets completed, and in this case, the person trying to get up is still on the ground and thus cannot get tripped. If it was the way you say it is, then spellcasters would get their spells off before taking the AoO, which obviously is not the case. That said, tripping is very very powerful. It robs your opponent of full round actions while you gain an attack and get to keep making full attacks without penalty. Downside is, trip does not work well against things bigger or stronger than you, and you generally have to use an weapon that is inferior at dealing damage. Just a thought, you can get imp. grapple and take your opponent down next to you. Then you are both on the ground, but you probably have the advantage. The prone attack penalty only applies to the grab check, which is touch anyways. The grapple check is not subject to this penalty, as it is not an attack.
Feor 02-23-06, 08:35 PM	Also, I don't know how permissible it is by RaW, but if I was your DM, nad you got knocked prone, and announced on your next turn "I take a swipe at his ankles" I'd certainly let you do it with no penalties. Trying to swing your weapon along at ground level to knock over your opponent isn't going to take much skill. Heck, I'd probably even let you roll against his Touch AC since you're not actually trying to get through any armor.
Birrak 02-23-06, 08:41 PM	As a house rule I allow my players to stand without provoking AoO if they have attack prone feat and kip up. Basis is they can get up quickly and go defensive while doing so.
gimby 02-23-06, 08:44 PM	Just to confirm, from the FAQ: When a character gets up from prone, when does the attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone? When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit. In the other, he can make another trip attack. All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however.
Alcalientre 02-23-06, 09:10 PM	Oh well. I guess by the rules I'm wrong, but whatever the RAW or FAQ says, if you get your feat knocked out from under you while standing up in my games, you would fall back down again.
Ashok_Lal 02-23-06, 09:20 PM	Birrak As a house rule I allow my players to stand without provoking AoO if they have attack prone feat and kip up. Basis is they can get up quickly and go defensive while doing so. This is not a house rule having prone fighting allows you to avoid the -4 on AC and kip up entitles you to stand up as a free action without a AoO.
Darkwolf_childe 02-23-06, 10:56 PM	Well, if you want to avoid the whole getting-tripped-then-tripped-some-more fiasco I'd suggest that your PC learn to tumble, stay out of trip range, use cover (or magic such as Bigby's hands spells) or get a polearm and take some of the polearm feats described in the Dragon Compendium which give you bonuses to balancing and resisting trip attacks. Dwarves are also good.
Black Mantha 02-24-06, 07:05 AM	Even if the AoO from standing up trips you again, you can still crawl away, right? You might be damaged, but it doesn't interrupt the action. Then you can take another move action to stand up outside of threatened space. The problem is where he then charges and trips you again...
Spike_Fightwicky 02-24-06, 08:10 AM	Looks like we were doing it wrong. The way we were doing it, the AoO happened not so much before the action happened, but as it was happening (just before finishing). We figured the the act that provoked the AoO provoked it during the action but before it finishes, not before (logically, if I'm trying to stand up, he attacks me as I'm trying standing up, not right before I attempt to stand up, thus if he trips me, I'm right back on the ground). Of course now this seems a whole lot easier to deal with now :D (Not that it's remotely easy... a dire wolf still ruins entire turns). Thanks for your help everyone!
Alcalientre 02-24-06, 12:06 PM	We figured the the act that provoked the AoO provoked it during the action but before it finishes, not before (logically, if I'm trying to stand up, he attacks me as I'm trying standing up, not right before I attempt to stand up, thus if he trips me, I'm right back on the ground). See, this makes sense, and this is how I play, whatever the rules say. Why would the opponent AoO you if you haven't moved yet? So, how it is is like this right? 1)You start the action 2)Opponent starts AoO 3)Opponent finishes AoO 4)You finish the action Now, if the opponent starts reacting right after you start your action, theres a good chance that you'll finish your action before he actually hits you. Logically, it would be like this 1)You start the action 2)Opponent starts AoO 3)You finish the action 4)Opponent finishes AoO That makes more sense to me, I don't know about everyone else.
jaelis 02-24-06, 12:18 PM	See, this makes sense, and this is how I play, whatever the rules say. Why would the opponent AoO you if you haven't moved yet? So, how it is is like this right? 1)You start the action 2)Opponent starts AoO 3)Opponent finishes AoO 4)You finish the action Now, if the opponent starts reacting right after you start your action, theres a good chance that you'll finish your action before he actually hits you. Logically, it would be like this 1)You start the action 2)Opponent starts AoO 3)You finish the action 4)Opponent finishes AoO That makes more sense to me, I don't know about everyone else. Well, you could do it that way, but as pointed out earlier, spellcasters would get their spell off before your AoO had a chance to disrupt them. And you couldn't attack a character moving away from you, because he would be gone before your attack landed. I think the game plays better the way it is. Don't worry about the realism to much, this is all kind of an abstraction anyway.
Alcalientre 02-24-06, 12:49 PM	Yeah, I see your point. It makes sense one way sometimes and the other way the rest of the time. Since WotC is obviously not going to devote pages to exactly how AoO's work in every possible situation, I guess they had to make a general rule, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go by it when it doesn't make sense.
mvincent 02-24-06, 12:58 PM	Oh well. I guess by the rules I'm wrong, but whatever the RAW or FAQ says, if you get your feat knocked out from under you while standing up in my games, you would fall back down again.As always: play as you like. But at least note that this house rule could allow some unbalancing side effects which you may not have considered. Example: AoO's are most commonly provoked by an opponent moving out of a threatened area. If these were conducted after the provoking action, many of them would be invalidated (since they now couldn't reach the target).
tarkin 02-24-06, 01:32 PM	And even just using your own house rule that an AoO can trip someone when they get up so that they stay down, that itself is INCREDIBALLY abusive. Trip is already a powerfull ability, as shown by the guy's response above. You trip someone then all your allies (and your additional attacks) at +4 to hit. If you let a trip on someone getting up knock them down again, then Trip just became an EPIC power feat. You trip them once and then they stay down. Combined with Improved Trip, you get a free attack after you trip someone, so it becomes: Trip and take free attack at +4 to hit. They try to get up, you trip them again, then take a free attack at +4 to hit. Then they can't get up, and have already used up their move action, so they are screwed and only get a single attack on you. You take your FULL attack on them. continue forever. Trip is super-strong already, house ruling to make it stronger than it is, is something that only a Power Gamer would consider (not that there is anything wrong with being a Power Gamer - just be aware of what you are doing.)
InkBlot 02-24-06, 02:10 PM	While prone you can tumble 5 feet away, out of the reach of most creatures, as a move action. You can always crawl 5 feet as a move action while prone, and the DC for tumbling full-speed (5 feet in this case) is 25. The downside is that this practically ends your turn. Also consider that, since getting up from prone is a move-equivalent action instead of actual movement, after standing up you can still five-foot-step. So stand up, five-foot-step away, and throw a tanglefoot bag on your enemy so he/she/it can't five-foot-step up to you. A touch attack is easy to make, and even if your enemy saves vs. being glued to the floor it/she/he still can't 5-foot-step because of the movement penalty. Alternatively, a common house-rule is to allow a person to get up without provoking an AoO if they do it as a full round action.
Saric 02-24-06, 02:16 PM	Steadfast boots in the arms and equipment guide... immunity to trips/bull rush happy gaming!
zelf_gale 02-24-06, 03:27 PM	The special combat options in the PHB for increasing your AC when attacking at a penalty or not attacking at all may help you get back on your feet without taking any hits.
mvincent 02-24-06, 04:11 PM	Another tip is to have your highest AC character provoke the AoO from the tripper so that it is not available when you try to stand (assuming they don't have combat reflexes).