Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Good 06-10-05, 10:33 AM	So I understand that it's 5 then 15 feet for moving or counting diagnals. But I'm two diagnal squars away from someone who has 10 ft. reach, can I move in on the diagnals and attack him without the attack of opportunity? In other words, shouldn't you always attack people with reach along the diagnals to avoid attacks of opportunity? Also, can he attack me two diagnal squars away (10 ft reach, I'm 15 feet away). Does he get attack of opportunties if I cast a spell 2 diagnals away?
SureFoot 06-10-05, 10:54 AM	In 3.0, the rules for reach followed the same rules for distance--in other words, 10' reach meant you could NOT reach into the 10' diagonals, thus you COULD approach a creature with 10' reach on the diagonal and not provoke. In 3.5, that was changed (for the better, IMHO) so that reach is an exception to the "diagonal = 1.5 distance" rule. Thus, in 3.5, your 10' reach DOES extent into the diagonals, and you do, in fact, provoke an AoO for moving through them (successful Tuble check notwithstanding, naturally).
NeueRegel 06-10-05, 10:55 AM	Good question Good. I mean, Good, good question. I don't mean that it's really good, Good. Er, I mean that it was good of Good to bring up, for I've been wondering this for a good time too. Good gaming. Neue
tarkin 06-10-05, 11:10 AM	Smart people solve this easily. They don't use squares. Use Hexes. Problems solved.
NeueRegel 06-10-05, 11:19 AM	Hey Tarkin: If you use hexes, how do spells like lightning bolt travel? With squares, it's along a line, affecting all the squares along the line, right? How does that work with hexes? (I downloaded a hexgrid just now to look at). Neue
Beamup 06-10-05, 11:20 AM	Smart people solve this easily. They don't use squares. Use Hexes. Problems solved. And other problems created.
tarkin 06-10-05, 11:31 AM	The problems caused by Hexes fall into two categories: 1: smaller, less complex then the many you get from squares. 2: Things that also happen in Hexes, but people ignore. For example, the Lighting thing issue falls into category 2. Are you actually going to stand there and tell me that you only fire Lightning bolts North-South, or East-West??? OF COURSE NOT. You fire line attacks at any angle, If the guy you want to hit is two squares North of you and one square west of you, you aim the lightningbolt directly at him. A nother common 'problem' with hexes is the standard "My room doesn't fit." Your room will fit fine, if it shaped like the outline of the hexes? What that looks wierd to you? People wouldn't build like that? But you are fine requiring that all rooms in your entire world be set up in blocks of exactly5 ft? Rooms do not come in neat 5ft blocks. My bedroom at home is 12' 5" by 11' 3 inches. Just as I would apoximate on the squares by saying 10 x 10 (ignoring the extra 2' 5" length and extra 1' 3" width), we approximate it on the Hex Grid, having a disjoined croocked look. Both approximations are of equal value, you just notice one more then the other. Hexes are far superior to square grids. Just ask the military. Pretty much the only time they use a square grid to simulate battle is for firing solutions for artillery/etc. They certainly do NOT do it when trying to show movement of troops/boats/etc.
NeueRegel 06-10-05, 11:37 AM	I think that you took offense Tarkin, where none was meant; I asked as a complete hex-newbie, looking at the hexgrid for the very first time in my life; The lightning bolt thing just happened to be the second thing that sprang to mind, after, reach weapons/AoO's. I ask again: How do *you* adjudgicate a lightning bolt's path, and which hexes along the path's sides does it affect; I see two options, fired along a hex-corner or a hex face. Neue
tarkin 06-10-05, 11:56 AM	I did not take offense, (writing emails sometimes makes people seem more offended then they are) I just totally ignore the hexes when I am aiming the line. The distance it travels, is easily calculated afterwards by counting hexes it passes through. Any hex the lighting touches, it passes through completely and people in it must save/take damage. I find it works extremely well.
Deviston 06-10-05, 12:09 PM	I did not take offense, (writing emails sometimes makes people seem more offended then they are) I just totally ignore the hexes when I am aiming the line. The distance it travels, is easily calculated afterwards by counting hexes it passes through. Any hex the lighting touches, it passes through completely and people in it must save/take damage. I find it works extremely well. OH !! i have wanted xexes . . but why are they better than squares? please PM me all the benfits of hexes so i can bring them up to my group ::END SUBSCRIPTION::
tarkin 06-10-05, 01:04 PM	Benefits include the following: 1) Diagonal movement/reach/ranges are now easy to see, calculate, just count hexes. 2) Makes it far easier to draw circles and cones. The results are smoother and less jerky. 3) When you have a diagonal corridor, it is easier to realize what groups of forces actually block the corridor and what ones have holes in them. 4) Threat Zone is easier to see, negating the problem of people not realizing they would take an AoO.
Tony Vargas 06-10-05, 02:32 PM	I run champions, which uses hexes instead of a grid. They do have thier advatages, but they can also make it hard to count movement in some directions (just like squares can), and can be really annoying when you're working in rooms and corridors with right-angles (you get a lot of partial hexes) - and, it's not like humans don't make lots of structures with right angles...
ATynam 06-10-05, 03:02 PM	Grid, Whirlwind attack against eight foes. :) Hexes, Whirlwind attack against six foes. :( Used to play GURPS and Battletech alot and have had more than enough time on hexes to know that movement is better on a hex layout. The only reason our group still uses a square grid. Sentimental that we are the old battlemat is a tablecloth with a plastic sheet over the top. And there are few tablecloths that come with a hex pattern but many that come with a one inch grid pattern ;)
Nom 06-12-05, 11:10 AM	To the OP: 10 ft. reach (only) is a special rule, as listed in PH pg 149 and illustrated on the diagrams in the back of the DMG. For all other distances, standard counting is used. As to hex vs square, there are advantages and disadvantages to each. A diagonal is actually ~1.41, so the D&D system of counting every 2nd diagonal as 1.5 is about a close an approximation as you can get without using ugly numbers. Hex grids are more aesthetically pleasing when representing small circles, and allow precise distance calculations along 3 axes rather than 2. However, any significant deviation from these axes will result in a less accurate measurement than squares with 1.5 diagonals. You will note that the diagrams on pp 307-310 better approximate a true circle than a hex grid does, albeit at the cost of more complex calculations. A hex grid actually sacrifices an axis of movement. The 1.5 diagonal counting allows 4 axes of movement on a square grid, while a hex grid only supports 3. Both square and hex grids run into problems when calculating non-orthogonal sight-lines. A non-orthogonal hex line will always cross multiple alternating hex-lines, since the sides are not "straight". In contrast, a square line will never cross "backwards" once it has crossed into a new line. Some jagginess still appears with square grids as the angle becomes closer to 45 degrees. Both grids suffer the problem of people wanting a "direct" line between 2 points that are not supported by the grid's axes. This problem is disguised better on a square grid because of the extra axis and because people are used to thinking up-down-left-right and half-way between, while the common 90-degree angle is the worst case approximation on a hex grid. Essentially, the choice is between hexagons approximating circles (simple) and the less elegant but more accurate 1.5 diagonal counting on a square grid. If you draw a lot of circles, hex is probably more playable. If you do a lot of moving in straight-ish lines, a square grid will better support this.