Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azerith24 08-06-07, 02:21 PM	I can't find any rules on the hardness of diamond as a material. Assuming that you could transmute a pre-crafted suit of armor or weapon into diamond, what would the hardness be? Would there be any special qualities? What would it weigh? I don't want to assume its harder than adamantine, and I most definitely don't want to wing it at the risk of throwing balance off the game. While I'm asking what would be the price per pound? Also, lol, does anyone know the price per pound of adamantine?
Eikre 08-06-07, 02:26 PM	Knowing that Adamantine is pretty damned hard, and that Diamond, while also pretty damned hard is prone to damage anyway, I'd say you could simply treat them as the same material. Though, I'd say a diamond weapon probably wouldn't be as utilitarian as an Adamantine one. When it chips, as it inevitably will, you really won't have much of a way to repair it.
Legdiwena 08-06-07, 02:31 PM	Some spells require crushed diamonds, so would assume it isn't that hard to destroy.
RobbyPants 08-06-07, 02:43 PM	Solid diamond wouldn't be all that good anyway. When people use diamonds for industrial use, they use small pieces of it attached to another material. A solid diamond blade would be rediculously brittle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_tool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_tool) I would just use adamantine. There are already rules in place for it, it's cheaper, and more "feasible".
tarkin 08-06-07, 02:45 PM	Diamonds are not that difucult to cut. D20 uses the word hardness in a very different manner than geologists do. In addition, diamonds, being composed of the exact same carbon that coal is made from, are flamable. This was originally proven when someone used a large magnifing glass system to burn one. What diamons are usefull for in real life is abrasion. I.E. We make diamond files to use to smoothing things make abrasive diamond impregnated drills to cut through things. If you want to be realistic, I would probably make a saw, not armor. Failing a saw, a weapon would still make more sense then armor.
Azerith24 08-06-07, 02:49 PM	The reason I ask is because an npc im my game is a magister, but my players aren't dumb. I'm looking for the best material to make a staff from that isn't going to weigh a lot, (8 str)
Kouk 08-06-07, 03:26 PM	The reason I ask is because an npc im my game is a magister, but my players aren't dumb. I'm looking for the best material to make a staff from that isn't going to weigh a lot, (8 str) What's wrong with Darkwood (or allowing mithral)? I really doubt players are going to want to Sunder a staff, and with that STR it won't be hard to Disarm him of it. They can Ready an action to Disarm him while he is casting a spell (if they fight), and while one of his hands is off the staff, I think you could easily rule he can't be wielding the weapon well enough for an Attack of Opportunity against an attacker. But that is more dangerous than necessary.
Azerith24 08-06-07, 03:51 PM	What's wrong with Darkwood (or allowing mithral)? I really doubt players are going to want to Sunder a staff, and with that STR it won't be hard to Disarm him of it. They can Ready an action to Disarm him while he is casting a spell (if they fight), and while one of his hands is off the staff, I think you could easily rule he can't be wielding the weapon well enough for an Attack of Opportunity against an attacker. But that is more dangerous than necessary. Well, he has mind over matter(int for str checks) mithral I considered but i wanted something harder, that didn't weigh a lot
Watchman 08-06-07, 04:49 PM	Diamonds, although extremely hard, are unfortunately also dreadfully fragile due to the molecular tensions inherent in their crystalline structure. Put one on hard floor and stomp on it, and it'll probably break (assuming hard-soled footwear that is). Put one on an anvil and hit with a hammer, and guess what ? It breaks. It's helpful to think of it as sort of glass or high-carbon steel taken to an extreme; practically impossible to scratch (and able to scratch any other material), but shatters if you look at it funny.
Howland Reed 08-06-07, 05:16 PM	As far as the weight of adamantine... The price of an adamantine weapon is +3000 gp. 300 of that is assumed to be the cost of mastercrafting it, and let's add another 200 for the fact that maybe adamantine requires some extra work involved in the crafting. That leaves 2500. If you take a look at most weapons in the PH, metal weight (of blade/head/what have you) is in the 2-4 lb. range. The exception here is 2-handed weapons, but I think most people who compare weights of real weapons think those are unrealistically heavy anyway, so I'm willing to discount those. That gives you a price per pound of somewhere between 500 and 1250 gp per pound. BUT... If you look at the costs for adamantine armor, you get different figures. Light is 5000...figure 500-1000 for crafting costs, 4000-4500 material costs, divided by 25 lb. for a chain shirt...that gives you 150-200 gp per pound in round numbers. Medium is 10,000...figure 9000 of that is materials, chainmail is 40 lb., that gives you around 200-250 gp per pound. Heavy is 15,000...figure 12-14,000 is materials, plate is 50 lb., that gives you 250-300 gp per pound. So you're looking at prices varying between 150 and 1250 gp per pound. Consistency, huh? :) You've got 2 options: --adamantine weapons are overpriced. --adamantine armor is underpriced. Pick whichever one goes best for your campaign world, then set an appropriate price per pound, and you're good. Oh, or option 3: ignore the inconsistency, and either don't allow your players to buy/sell adamantine ingots or else price 'em however you want. It's unrealistic, but satisfyingly simple. Final note: If you think the weights of 2-handed weapons are realistic, that could give you a price of around 300 gp per pound, which dovetails with the heavy armor price. But you're still picking and choosing your data, and this doesn't prevent the inconsistency. Final Final note: Adamantine ammo is +300, right? What's an arrowhead weigh, an ounce or two? That gives a price of 2500-5000 gp per pound. Go figure.
Kouk 08-06-07, 05:16 PM	Well, he has mind over matter(int for str checks) mithral I considered but i wanted something harder, that didn't weigh a lot Don't forget that enchanting a weapon with enhancement bonuses also increases the Hardness and Hit Points.
Kursk 08-06-07, 06:50 PM	I can't find any rules on the hardness of diamond as a material. Assuming that you could transmute a pre-crafted suit of armor or weapon into diamond, what would the hardness be? Would there be any special qualities? What would it weigh? I don't want to assume its harder than adamantine, and I most definitely don't want to wing it at the risk of throwing balance off the game. While I'm asking what would be the price per pound? Also, lol, does anyone know the price per pound of adamantine? Hardness and toughness are two different things. I think glass and steel can have a similar hardness but I wouldn't make armor out of glass...
locustechpriest 08-06-07, 07:51 PM	Put one on an anvil and hit with a hammer, and guess what ? It breaks. Actually, no. Many gems will, but not diamonds. There was, in the deep past, a cultural belief that only gems capable of surviving a hammer blow were truly valuable. Diamonds were among the few not destroyed en mass. They can Ready an action to Disarm him while he is casting a spell. If he isn't casting defensively, they can just use the AoO to disarm him. Short of giving him a locked gauntlet on one hand (not good for flavoring a mage), smart players pretty much got him cornered if they get into melee, it seems. I am guessing this will be a magic staff rather than an enchanted quarterstaff. I would just go with mithral or darkwood.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-06-07, 10:39 PM	The Hardness of a diamond would probably be zero. They are not resistant at all to being crushed, shattered, broken, burned, et cetera. They just can't be cut easily. DnD hardness =/= Mohs hardness.
Watchman 08-06-07, 11:25 PM	Actually, no. Many gems will, but not diamonds. There was, in the deep past, a cultural belief that only gems capable of surviving a hammer blow were truly valuable. Diamonds were among the few not destroyed en mass.Sadly, that belief was simply the cause of the demise of many a perfectly fine diamond. I'm going to believe a certified goldsmith and gemmologist on this one, thank you.
ShinAkuma2 08-07-07, 12:34 AM	Indeed, the same structure that makes them hard to cut makes them easy to cleave (ie split along a grain).
marcus_antonius 08-07-07, 08:57 AM	Sorry to derail this thread for a short statement on adamantine and its pricing. You need to look at the item crafting "backwards" you assume adamantine is "just" very expensive, but inconsistantly so, because of the different weapon weights. Well look at it THIS way: The material is not "terribly" expensive on its own (still more valuable than most metals due to ist hardness, but i'll come to that soon). The true price of an adamantine weapon comes from the very fact that its so hard to work with. Even very skilled Weaponsmiths need months to complete even a "measly" dagger, because its so resistant. So you relly not pay the lump of adamantine, but the time a smith has put into crafting the weapon. The difference in price between crafting very simple weapons is depending party on their size, and their sheer mass of materials used. If you want to, think "Very-uber-super-extreme"-masterwork quality when buying an adamantine weapon. At least thats the level of skill a weaponsmith needs to craft one ;)
Kursk 08-07-07, 12:04 PM	Actually, no. Many gems will, but not diamonds. There was, in the deep past, a cultural belief that only gems capable of surviving a hammer blow were truly valuable. Diamonds were among the few not destroyed en mass. Kids, don't try this at home! Unless you want to make diamond dust for sanding purposes. ;)
lucas_william 08-08-07, 11:00 AM	If you are stilll looking for a diamond-like material check out Glassteel in Champions of Valor. Glassteel has increased hardness and light weight. Its usable with armor, shields, and weapons. In addition, it has a cost per pound.