Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haiprek 11-16-06, 12:20 PM	So why were Katana threads banned? I'm new to the boards so I missed it.
Coralwand 11-16-06, 12:24 PM	Well, in the hour or so I've been reading the forum (just registered today) I've seen upwards of eight or nine katana threads... in an hour. On one day. Not to mention the uranium katana thread alone is enough reason for me.
dokesa 11-16-06, 12:35 PM	Because some people get caught up in the historical accuracy of katanas being masterwork bastard swords. The two sides would get quite mad at each other.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-16-06, 12:51 PM	Officially, in D&D 3.5, a katana is mechanically identical to masterwork bastard sword. It still looks like a katana, it just has the same stats as a MW bastard sword in price, weight, damage, proficiency, etc. The entirety of the argument can be summed up in four words: "That's not good enough." People disagree with one or more aspects of what I've just said (crit should be higher, damage should be lower, katanas shouldn't always be masterwork, etc.) and spend 30 pages trying to convince people that their opinion is more correct than everybody else's. About 10 posts in, people will start citing, at length, various aspects of history or various aspects of anime or various aspects of Mythbusters to aid their opinion, but to no avail. And I can't stop saying "bastardwork master sword" in my head, so I think this post is over.
Salla 11-16-06, 01:38 PM	Officially, in D&D 3.5, a katana is mechanically identical to masterwork bastard sword. It still looks like a katana, it just has the same stats as a MW bastard sword in price, weight, damage, proficiency, etc. The entirety of the argument can be summed up in four words: "That's not good enough." People disagree with one or more aspects of what I've just said (crit should be higher, damage should be lower, katanas shouldn't always be masterwork, etc.) and spend 30 pages trying to convince people that their opinion is more correct than everybody else's. About 10 posts in, people will start citing, at length, various aspects of history or various aspects of anime or various aspects of Mythbusters to aid their opinion, but to no avail. And I can't stop saying "bastardwork master sword" in my head, so I think this post is over. You win the thread. :)
Garonak 11-16-06, 01:39 PM	Officially, in D&D 3.5, a katana is mechanically identical to masterwork bastard sword. It still looks like a katana, it just has the same stats as a MW bastard sword in price, weight, damage, proficiency, etc. The entirety of the argument can be summed up in four words: "That's not good enough." People disagree with one or more aspects of what I've just said (crit should be higher, damage should be lower, katanas shouldn't always be masterwork, etc.) and spend 30 pages trying to convince people that their opinion is more correct than everybody else's. About 10 posts in, people will start citing, at length, various aspects of history or various aspects of anime or various aspects of Mythbusters to aid their opinion, but to no avail. And I can't stop saying "bastardwork master sword" in my head, so I think this post is over. Just remember that all the guys that participate(sp?) in those discussions are katana experts, they either own a real one, are trained in it, have held one once or know someone that knows *everything* about them... Cracks me up EVERY time.
draconic_swine 11-16-06, 04:03 PM	You forgot about the flaming that always pops up. You really need to carry a fire extinguisher with you when venturing into these threads.
Azdraugnor 11-16-06, 04:33 PM	Draconic_swine, a katana is a masterwork bastard sword. The rules make no mention of the flaming property.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-16-06, 04:37 PM	Flaming Bastardwork Master Sword, ACTIVATE!
Yaeri 11-16-06, 06:08 PM	Just remember that all the guys that participate(sp?) in those discussions are katana experts, they either own a real one, are trained in it, have held one once or know someone that knows *everything* about them... Cracks me up EVERY time. Don't forget the ones who've seen the video's of someone splitting a tank with a katana. You'd expect with so many martial arts and weapons experts in one thread the issue would be resolved quickly. But strangely enough they all say something different and the discussion keeps on going. But anyway, a friend of a friend of my cousin's ex-girlfriend is a katana expert and he sais they do indeed 1D10 damage.
Watchman 11-16-06, 06:33 PM	More cheese, Gromit ?
narukagami 11-16-06, 08:51 PM	Flaming Bastardwork Master Sword, ACTIVATE! Seriously, why would anyone even bother with a katana when they can get a Bastardwork Master Sword?
Flay Crimsonwind 11-16-06, 10:14 PM	Seriously, why would anyone even bother with a katana when they can get a Bastardwork Master Sword?Word. Course I'd have to get two for my TWF rogue. :D
j_gunder 11-16-06, 10:15 PM	Do you know what we call katana over here in Japan? Swords. Over-romanticized katana fanboys need to get over themselves. That's not to say that there weren't some masterfully-crafted katanas throughout the course of history...but people seem to think, for some reason, that a single-edged, slightly-curved blade should be capable, mechanically, of out-classing European-based sword designs. Not the case, my disillusioned friends. Masterworked bastard sword sounds about right to me. I live near Seki, actually, which is one of the only places in Japan that still manufactures bona fide katana...it's funny to watch the number of foreigners, usually Americans, that walk away from the twice-a-year sword festivals boasting that they bought "the real deal" for 200USD. 90% of the swords sold there are mass-produced in India...though it is possible to buy the real thing. Not for cheaper than 300-400USD, usually, for the lowest quality. I also laugh when the same Americans try to cut stuff with their newly-purchased piece of crap and nick the blade, as if they thought the blade wouldn't be damaged hitting a tree. I hate people, but they are entertaining.
Majick 11-17-06, 12:56 AM	...I hate people, but they are entertaining. Wow, someone's angry at the world :P
j_gunder 11-17-06, 02:21 AM	And today I'm in a GOOD mood. Your riposte made me smile, though.:P
Archangel62 11-17-06, 02:30 AM	Meh, I just like my translation from 2nd edition 1d8 18-20X2. Some people prefer masterwork bastard sword, whatever works for people. I like my design, they like theirs, as said before, whatever.
Salla 11-17-06, 02:57 AM	Meh, I just like my translation from 2nd edition 1d8 18-20X2. Some people prefer masterwork bastard sword, whatever works for people. I like my design, they like theirs, as said before, whatever. So long as you don't go for the '6d10, 15-20/x4 crit, attacks as a touch attack' version someone posted ...
Tyler Do'Urden 11-17-06, 02:58 AM	Seriously, why would anyone even bother with a katana when they can get a Bastardwork Master Sword? It shoots beams of illegitimate energy when you're at full health.
Archangel62 11-17-06, 04:41 AM	So long as you don't go for the '6d10, 15-20/x4 crit, attacks as a touch attack' version someone posted ... If I did that the weapon would obviously be a magical artifact with an ego so obscene that it wields whoever is holding it...that and I would have to hammergun myself several times to remove the stupid.
Archangel62 11-17-06, 04:42 AM	It shoots beams of illegitimate energy when you're at full health. but only if you're an elf and wearing a funny green hat.
VonRichthofen 11-17-06, 04:55 AM	Didn't you realize it yet? The most capable blademasters in the entire universe hang out at this very board. And that's the reason they hang out on some nerd-game's web board: they are the best - they need absolutely no exercise any longer. If you'd hear them boasting about their own capabilities on some of those threads, you'd most certainly wet your pants. Must of them do quite obviously & simply suffer from severe cases of anime-derived delusions. Same goes for the katana: If you but dare to doubt I can cleave an Abrams Mk II battle tank in twain with my katana, you're in for some seriously irate sword-god-in-my-dreams. Honestly, I tried with realism first as well, tried to convince them of simple physics. Stupid me. Should have known better. Nowadays, I just leave it alone. Best not to bother - much good will it do to you.
Garonak 11-17-06, 08:53 AM	I got the ultimate proof that Bastard sword is better than a katana: Me and my brother played MK: Armageddon, he made a guy with a katana, I made one with a bastard sword. I won. No further proof required.
VonRichthofen 11-17-06, 09:03 AM	I got the ultimate proof that Bastard sword is better than a katana: Me and my brother played MK: Armageddon, he made a guy with a katana, I made one with a bastard sword. I won. No further proof required. A scientific approach at last...
jaelis 11-17-06, 10:57 AM	See, this is the actual reason they got banned. Katana threads have a tendency to veer off topic and become silly. Now it has become self-reinforcing, and everybody just starts acting silly from the get-go. No reason to ban them though. Silly threads are fun in moderation.
Azdraugnor 11-17-06, 02:45 PM	Me and my brother played MK: Armageddon, he made a guy with a katana, I made one with a bastard sword. I won. No further proof required. A single test is useless! I demand a statistically useful sample size before I can be convinced!
Grod_The_Giant 11-17-06, 03:04 PM	I don't have the book...but wouldn't there be something on them in Oriental Adventures? Or is that where the MW Bastard Sword comes from?
VonRichthofen 11-17-06, 03:19 PM	I don't have the book...but wouldn't there be something on them in Oriental Adventures? Or is that where the MW Bastard Sword comes from? Don't know wether they started it off there, but yes, the OA katana is a masterwork bastard sword.
THETUNNELRAT 11-17-06, 03:56 PM	I have seen trained martial artist handle one and all I can say is it looked nothing like a Bastard sword. The one one thing I notices was the thickness of the blade its nowhere near the BS. I can't see what the augment is about it jest looks like a bunch of players :banghead: about nothing ,but again logic has nothing to do with it. http://www.oddessy.com/MedievalWeapons/BastardSword.html http://http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/images/jt_katana I jest don't see it the Katana has a thinner and finer blade and would more closely resemble a Longsword with a bit of scimitar while a Bastard sword looks more like a short two-handed sword ie hand and a half sword. I could be jest using that pesky "Logic"again. My fix to all of this is make a new version of a katana and drop it. *note* A PC can use a Longsword in two hands or get one specially designed so he/she can , and a DM can rule that a longsword can be "folded" so it becomes shaper as the player uses it like a real katana with a folded blade.
Morotis 11-17-06, 04:06 PM	So long as you don't go for the '6d10, 15-20/x4 crit, attacks as a touch attack' version someone posted ... So if I do so much as to touch it I explode into thousands of tiny bits that explode into smaller bits.
GalaGalaxia 11-17-06, 04:08 PM	Not to mention the fact that a bastard sword is longer, and requires a bastard to craft.
Vestigial_Thumb 11-17-06, 04:15 PM	You must use greatswords to protect yourselves. I supply them. All you have to trade for it are your souls.
THETUNNELRAT 11-17-06, 04:30 PM	what ..no its more like a scimitar stretched out some because of the curve in its blade. The folded blade means that the creator of the weapon folds the steel over as he forges it to reduce the amount of carbon in the blade. The edge gets worn down with use and the edge gets finer not to the point of breaking tho. Ok in D&D terms it becomes vorpal after a long time if x amount of fold are made at creation. I believe the katana would be very costly and a master weapon smith capable of making one of this quality would be very difficult, but not impossible. If anyone can find a good reason this shouldn't or can't be done then please replay , because I will be doing this for a game. Thanks in advance.
Watchman 11-17-06, 04:52 PM	*sigh* ...I'm having a déjà vu here... ...fanboys... :weep:
THETUNNELRAT 11-17-06, 06:27 PM	funny, first of all I think the whole thread in dead and buried I wanted to put something out their to see how everyone would react to what I had to say. The thing about what a Katana is, isn't that important in a game were you can make a new weapon at the drop of a hat. Call it a Golden marmoset for all I care and say it dose 10D20 damage and X 30 on a critical the point is I want input and I got it , so thanks and Good night.
demon666fast 11-18-06, 12:34 AM	A guy once hit me with a real katana, and it dealt me exactly 1d10 pts of damage. I can't understand how ppl keep discussing this!!! The same guy also tried to make his katana a +1 weapon, with no success, so I came to the conclusion katanas are not masterwork!
Tyler Do'Urden 11-18-06, 02:25 AM	Maybe it was bastardwork.
epifreak 11-18-06, 03:09 AM	Just remember that all the guys that participate(sp?) in those discussions are katana experts, they either own a real one, are trained in it, have held one once or know someone that knows *everything* about them... Cracks me up EVERY time. Kind of like how those in crafting threads are all professional blacksmiths with precisely 243 years of experience. Roughly half will claim to be able to create a suit of functional, authentic chainmail, under conditions identical to the middle ages, in roughly 2 seconds. The other half claims that just such a suit of mail had been passed down from generation to generation in his family, all of whom had worked incessantly for the past millenium, without even reaching halfway. It's funny how internet forums breed expertise, isn't it? I wonder, if I started a thread about whether or not masterwork instruments were accurately represented mechanically, I'd see Steve Vai posting, because that would be beyond awesome.
VonRichthofen 11-18-06, 03:22 AM	I have seen trained martial artist handle one and all I can say is it looked nothing like a Bastard sword. The one one thing I notices was the thickness of the blade its nowhere near the BS. I can't see what the augment is about it jest looks like a bunch of players :banghead: about nothing ,but again logic has nothing to do with it. http://www.oddessy.com/MedievalWeapons/BastardSword.html http://http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/images/jt_katana I jest don't see it the Katana has a thinner and finer blade and would more closely resemble a Longsword with a bit of scimitar while a Bastard sword looks more like a short two-handed sword ie hand and a half sword. I could be jest using that pesky "Logic"again. My fix to all of this is make a new version of a katana and drop it. *note* A PC can use a Longsword in two hands or get one specially designed so he/she can , and a DM can rule that a longsword can be "folded" so it becomes shaper as the player uses it like a real katana with a folded blade. And here we go again. Was about time. Some fanboy shows up and spreads his strange thoughts on that folding the steel makes the blade any sharper. :D First, you should get your terminology right: Talking real-life, a longsword was always wielded with two hands. What you consider a longsword is actually an arming sword. Second, the folding of the steel is only needed to make crappy japanese steel into acceptable-good steel. If you already happen to have good steel (indian, european, p.e.), you don't need to fold. Third, you're getting the "folding" mixed up with the indeed long-forgotten process of producing damasc steel. (made from indian Woz steel in medieval Arabia, feared by the crusaders) Recent scientific approaches have shown it to contain carbon nano-tubes preserving particles of super hard iron-carbide (cementite) that indeed give the blade some self-sharpening qualities, combined with good flexibility and a saw-tooth profiled cutting edge. (visible only under the e-microscope) This was recently published by Prof. Peter Paufler, (Physics) of Dresden University/Germany, after passing excessive tests that inculded the disolving of a 17th-century damasc blade (well, parts of it) cuppled with high-resolution e-microscope research. The article published by the magazine "Nature" has it that this may well be the source of the blades' superior properties. Fourth, stupid me! ;) Here I am once again trying to apply logics to a subject that has absolutely nothing to do with it. I beg your pardon, ladies and gentlemen.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-18-06, 04:07 AM	Roughly half will claim to be able to create a suit of functional, authentic chainmail, under conditions identical to the middle ages, in roughly 2 seconds.I'm ignoring the 2 seconds part. This comment prompts me to point out what a tremendous pain in the ass it is to draw your own wire. Making rings out of wire is real straightforward, but making wire? It's so not worth the effort in this day and age when there's guys like this (http://theringlord.com). Also this...Recent scientific approaches have shown it to contain carbon nano-tubes preserving particles of super hard iron-carbide (cementite) that indeed give the blade some self-sharpening qualities, combined with good flexibility and a saw-tooth profiled cutting edge. (visible only under the e-microscope)...is really friggin' cool. I did not know that.
demon666fast 11-18-06, 04:55 AM	It's a shame so many people buying this idea that japanese weapons and crafting are somehow more sophisticated, complex and superior than other cultures'. I can't stop thinking how japanese swords, more specifically the katana, martial arts, fencing and other types of warfare are completely overestimated. The strongest punch is from boxe, the hardest kick is from muay-thai and tae kwon do, the deadliest grapplers are from brazilian jiu-jitsu, the coolest martial-philosophy blah-blah-blah is chinese, a well made germanic two-handed sword can cut you in half as easily as any well made katana, and trying to make a very poor and generic historical comparison between japanese and other cultures armies... thank god for them they live in an island. I have nothing against japan or its culture, quite the contrary, really! But regarding historical warfare technology, efficiency and sophistication, japan is faaaar behind in the list of the top100 killer world cultures from the past. Back on topic: the katana is just another sword.
Watchman 11-18-06, 05:31 AM	Funny detail is, Europeans were using that selfsame pattern-welding/folding process long before the Japanese had even swapped bronze for iron (and the Chinese took bronze weapon metallurgy to its highest heights, for that matter; the rustic Japanese stuck on their poor island never came even close). The Celts and Romans, and no doubt a few other contemporaries (the Iberians were famed metalworkers, and Central Asia rich in iron ore), both made some really topnotch blades that way, and the technique only eventually dropped out of use IIRC sometime during the late Migrations Period because better ironworking and manufacturing techniques developed rendered it somewhat superfluous. It was used to a limited degree a fair while longer for decorative purposes though. And the Japanese swords are supposed to be better because the poor raw iron they had to be made of necessitated the use of the folding technique to "dilute" weakening impurities and diffuse them more or less evenly across the blade ? Sure thing.
Garonak 11-18-06, 10:30 AM	I seem to remember that this thread was about making fun of all the retards that think they're katana experts... but somehow, they have come here, seen the title and just assumed that this was yet another 'what stats does a katana have'- thread... dang, people sure are stupid.
Watchman 11-18-06, 03:58 PM	Hey, I've my erudition and am not afraid to use it ! :ton:
VonRichthofen 11-18-06, 04:14 PM	... dang, people sure are stupid. At least I already admitted to it... Thus, no blaming me. I told you before! ;)
demon666fast 11-18-06, 04:21 PM	I seem to remember that this thread was about making fun of all the retards that think they're katana experts... but somehow, they have come here, seen the title and just assumed that this was yet another 'what stats does a katana have'- thread... dang, people sure are stupid. You have to accept that there are some retards that are indeed katana experts. It's not polite to call people stupid just because you disagree with their thoughts or assume they don't know what they are talking about. Stupidity IMO is to keep reading posts you consider to be stupid ;) And yes, I'm being stupid.
Rowan_Whispercloak 11-18-06, 04:52 PM	I don't have the book...but wouldn't there be something on them in Oriental Adventures? Or is that where the MW Bastard Sword comes from? In 3.0/3.5 the katana being a masterwork bastard sword (not a bastardwork mastersword that is inherently grants you the Ki Blast feat (and free uses) while at full hitpoints) came from the DMG the chapter about world build and the idea of using an Asian setting, on a slightly off topic subject that is also were the stats for a blowgun and a few other “exotic” weapon were first found in that/this edition.
Optimator 11-18-06, 05:26 PM	And here we go again. Was about time. Some fanboy shows up and spreads his strange thoughts on that folding the steel makes the blade any sharper. :D First, you should get your terminology right: Talking real-life, a longsword was always wielded with two hands. What you consider a longsword is actually an arming sword. Second, the folding of the steel is only needed to make crappy japanese steel into acceptable-good steel. If you already happen to have good steel (indian, european, p.e.), you don't need to fold. Third, you're getting the "folding" mixed up with the indeed long-forgotten process of producing damasc steel. (made from indian Woz steel in medieval Arabia, feared by the crusaders) Recent scientific approaches have shown it to contain carbon nano-tubes preserving particles of super hard iron-carbide (cementite) that indeed give the blade some self-sharpening qualities, combined with good flexibility and a saw-tooth profiled cutting edge. (visible only under the e-microscope) This was recently published by Prof. Peter Paufler, (Physics) of Dresden University/Germany, after passing excessive tests that inculded the disolving of a 17th-century damasc blade (well, parts of it) cuppled with high-resolution e-microscope research. The article published by the magazine "Nature" has it that this may well be the source of the blades' superior properties. Fourth, stupid me! ;) Here I am once again trying to apply logics to a subject that has absolutely nothing to do with it. I beg your pardon, ladies and gentlemen. This is one of the coolest posts I've read in days.
Ramble 11-18-06, 06:20 PM	Not to mention the fact that a bastard sword is longer, and requires a bastard to craft. Actually, any swordsmith could make a bastard sword, this myth was started by bastard weaponsmiths who didn't want to marry the mother of their children, "But honey, I want him to be able to make bastard swords. You know I love you but we can't get married..." :P Ramble.