different damage multipliers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

different damage multipliers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
braethias
04-10-06, 06:33 PM so, i was toying aroudn with making a character, flipping through some books, and i had an epiphany! (angelic noises in BG.)

to my current knowledge, rhino hide multiplies charge damage by 2, and leap attack multiplies your power attack damage by 3. (i know they changed it, but i dont have access to what it is now, and i like the old version. so do all of my players. :P) and a critical hit from oh say... mercurial great sword (which is x4 if you dont know) would hurt. a lot.

les'say you roll a 10 for damage, add 7 for strength, and use a -20 penalty for power attack to add 40 damage. +2 for charge. 59 damage. (236 if you crit.)
(10+7+40+2=59)

well, with leap attack, the +40 becomes +120, (and with shock trooper, the -20 penalty to hit goes to a -20 penalty to AC until your next action because you charged while using power attack.) rhino hide doubles damage you do on a charge.
((10+7+(40x3)+2)x2=278, (or 1116 damage with a crit)

if you have 10 levels of frenzied berzerker(CW again.), your +2 damage for p.attack becomes +4 per -1 for two handers, so your damage is this;
((10+7+(80x3)+2)x2=518 damage (or 2072 if you crit)

that seems a little bit... high for a first round attack. especially since more often than not, my characters have pounce (from being feral) and can full attack with a charge. but its funny, none of the multipliers effect the same thing, (leap attack, rhino hide, critical blah blah blah.) and it only gets higher, with frenzy/rage/feats/stuff and other STR raising items.

is this legit? am i missing something? it may just be my lack of having updated, and if thats the case then whoopie, but seriously, 2k damage on a full attack? that'll drop any mob in the MM, MMII, (most) in the ELH, and quite a few dietys, even with DR 90. of course, i dont know if they changed the rhino hide and leap attack. (i heard they did in some errata or another)

and yes, i know about the 'two doublings equals a tripling and so forth' thing. the only reason i be confused, is that each of the multipliers multiplies something different.

someone check my math or correct me?

(books i have access to- PHB3/3.5 DMG3 SS/CW/MotW/ELH/MMI-II/DD)
aotrscommander
04-10-06, 07:18 PM I first assume you mean Rhino's Rush spell (from the Spell Compenduim; it may have been renamed if your using older sources). For this, most updated source, it states that the first charge attack you make deals double damage (Let's assume for a moment you DM rules that that means the first attack out of your Full Attack made by Pounce). That multiplier is like the damage for a critical multiplier, applied to all of the damage for the attack, so after all dice, Str and Power Attack have been factored in, you will have a final damage multiplier of x5 (not as you have been using x2 x 4 = x 8).

So your damage would be:

10 (roll) +7 (Str) +40 (20x2 Power Attack) multipled by 2 (not added!) This would result in 57 x 2 = 114 damage (285 on a crit).

As a DM, let me first say 'meep!'

As for the most updated version Leap Attack, the errata basically says that you deal +100% additional power attack damage (so you're dealing +20x2 +20x2) damage, rather than 20 x 3 x 2 (or 20x6). This interpretation is bourne out by the errata of the Improved and Supreme Power Attack features of the Frenzied Berserker (which I have pasted below)

Thus:

10 (roll) +7 (Str) +80 (20x4 Power Attack) multipled by 2 from Rhino's Rush (not added!) This would result in 97 x 2 = 194 damage (485 on a crit)

The Frenzied berseker power attacks have also been clarified:

Improved Power Attack: Beginning at 5th level, a
frenzied berserker deals +50% the normal damage from
her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when
using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker
wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +3 bonus on
damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty
she applies to her attack rolls.

Supreme:

Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied
berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use
of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using
the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a
two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls
(instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies
to her attack rolls.

Thus: (now with 20x4 Frenzied berserker +20x2 Leap attack)

10 (roll) +7 (Str) +120 (20x6 Power Attack) multipled by 2 from Rhino's Rush (not added!) This would result in 137 x 2 = 274 damage (685 on a crit).

That, while still a truly obscene amount of damage (and not counting a +5 Sword you ought to have by this point), is rather short of your origional maths.

But Frag damn, when I eventually make my Frenzied Berserker, I'll know what to do!

(I presume you're a multiclass Barbarian/ranger/berserker..)
braethias
04-12-06, 04:13 PM nah, i dont like to multiclass. so if i go down this path, its a barb 10/FB 10.

and if you get a +4 per -1 for p.attack, its not a multiplier, its just a +4 per -1. so wouldnt it be (+80x2) for 160? not much of a change, but still painful.

'sides, i've house ruled that i wont do anything the players can't do, and they get to decide what they can do. they argue that a crit multiplier is added last, like the rhino hide, so they end up with some high numbers. of course, i can use it against them to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
braethias 04-10-06, 06:33 PM	so, i was toying aroudn with making a character, flipping through some books, and i had an epiphany! (angelic noises in BG.) to my current knowledge, rhino hide multiplies charge damage by 2, and leap attack multiplies your power attack damage by 3. (i know they changed it, but i dont have access to what it is now, and i like the old version. so do all of my players. :P) and a critical hit from oh say... mercurial great sword (which is x4 if you dont know) would hurt. a lot. les'say you roll a 10 for damage, add 7 for strength, and use a -20 penalty for power attack to add 40 damage. +2 for charge. 59 damage. (236 if you crit.) (10+7+40+2=59) well, with leap attack, the +40 becomes +120, (and with shock trooper, the -20 penalty to hit goes to a -20 penalty to AC until your next action because you charged while using power attack.) rhino hide doubles damage you do on a charge. ((10+7+(40x3)+2)x2=278, (or 1116 damage with a crit) if you have 10 levels of frenzied berzerker(CW again.), your +2 damage for p.attack becomes +4 per -1 for two handers, so your damage is this; ((10+7+(80x3)+2)x2=518 damage (or 2072 if you crit) that seems a little bit... high for a first round attack. especially since more often than not, my characters have pounce (from being feral) and can full attack with a charge. but its funny, none of the multipliers effect the same thing, (leap attack, rhino hide, critical blah blah blah.) and it only gets higher, with frenzy/rage/feats/stuff and other STR raising items. is this legit? am i missing something? it may just be my lack of having updated, and if thats the case then whoopie, but seriously, 2k damage on a full attack? that'll drop any mob in the MM, MMII, (most) in the ELH, and quite a few dietys, even with DR 90. of course, i dont know if they changed the rhino hide and leap attack. (i heard they did in some errata or another) and yes, i know about the 'two doublings equals a tripling and so forth' thing. the only reason i be confused, is that each of the multipliers multiplies something different. someone check my math or correct me? (books i have access to- PHB3/3.5 DMG3 SS/CW/MotW/ELH/MMI-II/DD)
aotrscommander 04-10-06, 07:18 PM	I first assume you mean Rhino's Rush spell (from the Spell Compenduim; it may have been renamed if your using older sources). For this, most updated source, it states that the first charge attack you make deals double damage (Let's assume for a moment you DM rules that that means the first attack out of your Full Attack made by Pounce). That multiplier is like the damage for a critical multiplier, applied to all of the damage for the attack, so after all dice, Str and Power Attack have been factored in, you will have a final damage multiplier of x5 (not as you have been using x2 x 4 = x 8). So your damage would be: 10 (roll) +7 (Str) +40 (20x2 Power Attack) multipled by 2 (not added!) This would result in 57 x 2 = 114 damage (285 on a crit). As a DM, let me first say 'meep!' As for the most updated version Leap Attack, the errata basically says that you deal +100% additional power attack damage (so you're dealing +20x2 +20x2) damage, rather than 20 x 3 x 2 (or 20x6). This interpretation is bourne out by the errata of the Improved and Supreme Power Attack features of the Frenzied Berserker (which I have pasted below) Thus: 10 (roll) +7 (Str) +80 (20x4 Power Attack) multipled by 2 from Rhino's Rush (not added!) This would result in 97 x 2 = 194 damage (485 on a crit) The Frenzied berseker power attacks have also been clarified: Improved Power Attack: Beginning at 5th level, a frenzied berserker deals +50% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +3 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls. Supreme: Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls. Thus: (now with 20x4 Frenzied berserker +20x2 Leap attack) 10 (roll) +7 (Str) +120 (20x6 Power Attack) multipled by 2 from Rhino's Rush (not added!) This would result in 137 x 2 = 274 damage (685 on a crit). That, while still a truly obscene amount of damage (and not counting a +5 Sword you ought to have by this point), is rather short of your origional maths. But Frag damn, when I eventually make my Frenzied Berserker, I'll know what to do! (I presume you're a multiclass Barbarian/ranger/berserker..)
braethias 04-12-06, 04:13 PM	nah, i dont like to multiclass. so if i go down this path, its a barb 10/FB 10. and if you get a +4 per -1 for p.attack, its not a multiplier, its just a +4 per -1. so wouldnt it be (+80x2) for 160? not much of a change, but still painful. 'sides, i've house ruled that i wont do anything the players can't do, and they get to decide what they can do. they argue that a crit multiplier is added last, like the rhino hide, so they end up with some high numbers. of course, i can use it against them to.