DINOSAUR HIDE ARMOR [Archive] - Wizards Community

DINOSAUR HIDE ARMOR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bigsnarf
06-07-07, 05:56 PM Would armor made from a T-rex be considered hide armor or something more tough like AC BONUS +5 with a max dex of +1?
Watchman
06-07-07, 06:13 PM I don't think the T-Rex had a particularly tough hide. Big pouncers like them primarily dish out damage rather than take it, after all.

Anyway, most dino scales would not be functionally different from, say, the tough back scales of a big crocodile (which, when you think about it, is actually a surviving dinosaur...) or similar.
bigsnarf
06-07-07, 06:24 PM SO should it just be hide armor that looks really wicked tough?
Watchman
06-07-07, 06:48 PM I'd actually say Leather. But if you added enough layers (presumably of less expensive and showy hide) it'd eventually get heavy and protective enough to count as Hide.

Incidentally, did you know people made scale armour out of pangolin hide too...? Now there's for showing off.
bigsnarf
06-07-07, 06:54 PM Whats a pangolin,is it a lizard?
Watchman
06-07-07, 06:58 PM No, not really (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangolin). Cute critters though.
bigsnarf
06-07-07, 07:22 PM They are cute.I can see a halfling barbarian wearing one as armor.
tarkin
06-08-07, 10:57 AM What you propose makes zero logical sense.

Here are a set of rule 1s for various things

Rule 1. for metal armors: Harder the metal = harder per inch = better armor.

Rule 1. for hides attached to their original creatures: THICKER hides = better armor. (That is, a Rhino has thick hide because it is quite literally 3 inches thick)

Rule 1. for making hide/leather armor: The thicker the hide the less you can move in it. If armor is too thick, your speed goes down (i.e. it counts as Heavy armor), your Max Dex drops VERY quickly, and your Skill penalty goes UP, very quickly. (That is, if you kill a rhino, the first thing you do is scrape that 3 inches down to 1/2 inch, or else no human could wear it.)

----------------

Now, look at existing leather/Hide armor.
Leather Armor: Light +2 AC Max Dex= 6, Penalty = 0
Hide Armor: Medium +3 AC Max Dex =4, Penalty = -3

Leather and Hide armor would typically be made from Bison (large cows) and Boars (pigs)

Bison Natural Armor: +4
Boar Natural Armor: +6

OK things we can figure out.

Important fact 1. Having a Natural armor of 6 is NOT going to give you anything better than normal Leather or Hide.

Important fact 2. In order to make Hide armor, we do a process called SCRAPING. This thins the hide down so that it is thin enough to wear and ONLY count as Medium armor instead of Heavy armor. It also raises the max dex and reduces the skill penalty. If we did not do this, we could not wear the armor.

important fact 3. To be even MORE effecient, we then process the hide a lot turning it into leather. While this process does soften it some, most people consider the tremodous increase in Max Dex, decrease in SKill penalty, and the change from Medium to Light Armor, to be worth the minor loss of AC.

------------------------------

Conclusions for making your own Special Hide/Leather armor.

1. Merely finding a creature with a high natural armor does NOTHING at all to help you. Those are common, and exist in the real world.

2. If you are willing to take an even lower max Dex and a skill penalty, and accept it as "Heavy Armor", you might be able to limit the scraping on Boar skin, (or any other creature with a +6 or higher Natural Armor). But I expect it will not be worth it. I.E. to get Hide Armor +4, you probably have to accept a Max Dex of 2, and a skill penalty of -5. Otherwise cavemen would have done that already.

3. The other concept would be to look for a creature that achieved a high Natural armor without having thick hides. Specifically, I would look for a creature that has a Natural Armor of 6 or greater and was SMALL or smaller.

You would of course have to kill many of those creatures and stich their skins to gether. But you might be able to achieve an Armor better than Hide armor. But don't expect it to be directly related to the Natural Armor of the creature.

Instead I would hope for something like Hide armor except it provides a +5 AC, without increasing/changing anything else
Watchman
06-08-07, 11:23 AM Uh, tark ? As far as a leather/hide/whatever armour's effect on mobility and stuff goes, the thickness is rather secondary to things like weight and cut, ie. how much it actually burdens the wearer and restricts his movements. Just pointing out.

But I'll agree that there in practice exists the normal tradeoff of "more protection = more weight and trouble". I've no damn idea how thick and heavy those seven-layer rhinoceros-hide cuirasses ancient Chinese charioteers used were, but I'm willing to bet price wasn't the only reason the infantry didn't touch the things.
bigsnarf
06-08-07, 05:36 PM OK,this is what Im going to do,Im going to just use hide armor that looks cool.Because we cant just go to the zoo and look at a T-Rex,we cant tell what the hide is like.I only asked cause I want some lost world nasty gobliniod tribe that hunts dinosaurs for food and materials for tools.Yes I know that a T-Rex is like huge and goblins are small,they just use the old"fool them into falling into a spiked pit"routine.
Watchman
06-08-07, 05:47 PM "Lure the big idiot over a cliff" ought to work too. I understand Big Rex is thought to have had all the cleverness of your average crocodile (on basis of general similarities of the brain cavity) - see food, attack food.

Anyway, reptilian scales haven't really changed one bit in zillion years at their baseline and I understand the fossils sometimes yield a pretty decent idea of what some dinos' hides were like. Colours, of course, are anyone's guess.
bigsnarf
06-08-07, 06:18 PM So hide armor is a safe bet?the more I think about it,predators dont normally have heavy hides,it was the herbivores that where the ones with heavy armor.I also dont want to make it too exotic,then the players would be hunting them for some type of superarmor that has the cheese factor template added to it.I just want the goblins to look nasty,ugly,and savage,which they are anyways,but these look coooooooool.They run around with hide armor,slings and clubs.If I make em to buff,then the goblins cant die in droves.Think of the old movie Zulu in a lost world setting with lots of tribes of goblins with populations in the tens of thousands.The players are like the Brits in the movie,stuck in between a rock and a hard place.Its one of those"how the heck do we get out of here alive?"adventures.The goblins breed like cockroaches and have infested the island,both above and below ground.
Watchman
06-08-07, 06:29 PM I'd say Leather were a safer bet in most configurations - these Gobbos sound like they'd be much more into light infantry/skirmish/guerilla style tactics, and the movement penalites of even Medium armour don't really fly well with that.

Stronger versions of the same basic armour - with multiple layers of leather, bone/horn reinforcements or scales, whatever - would presumably add up to Studded Leather and eventually Scale, but that latter would logically be rare and only used by "heavy hitter" specialists whose job is straight shock combat rather than freewheeling fast-paced melee and skirmishing. Elite "guard" warrior types and such.

And if you're going to be swarming hapless PCs with hordes of naty Gobbos, always keep in mind what devious uses Small stature can be put to. "Did these little bastards have to make their tunnels so low ?" :D
Edymnion
06-08-07, 06:32 PM SO should it just be hide armor that looks really wicked tough?Yes.
Even dragonhide only becomes a suit of masterwork hide armor when you use it, and I don't think a T-Rex has tougher hide than a dragon.
bondious
06-09-07, 04:14 AM Yes.
Even dragonhide only becomes a suit of masterwork hide armor when you use it, and I don't think a T-Rex has tougher hide than a dragon.

If that's all you want, then yeah. :rolleyes:

:D
jaelis
06-09-07, 08:23 AM On the other hand, if you wanted to make a suit of say +6 AC, Max dex 1, ACP -5 heavy armor from a dinosaur hide, you could always say that it has been alchemically treated to make it tougher. It would probably cost about 800 gp, and would automatically be masterwork.

(PS - That is just renaming dragonhide banded armor.)
bigsnarf
06-09-07, 08:27 AM OK,leather for goblins,and the hide is for hobgoblins.Im not giving bugbears anything but a wicker shield and warpaint,there tough without armor and they need to real sneaky.Like I said,if I make them too tough the PC's will get slaughtered.Which may just happen anyways if they dont use their brains.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bigsnarf 06-07-07, 05:56 PM	Would armor made from a T-rex be considered hide armor or something more tough like AC BONUS +5 with a max dex of +1?
Watchman 06-07-07, 06:13 PM	I don't think the T-Rex had a particularly tough hide. Big pouncers like them primarily dish out damage rather than take it, after all. Anyway, most dino scales would not be functionally different from, say, the tough back scales of a big crocodile (which, when you think about it, is actually a surviving dinosaur...) or similar.
bigsnarf 06-07-07, 06:24 PM	SO should it just be hide armor that looks really wicked tough?
Watchman 06-07-07, 06:48 PM	I'd actually say Leather. But if you added enough layers (presumably of less expensive and showy hide) it'd eventually get heavy and protective enough to count as Hide. Incidentally, did you know people made scale armour out of pangolin hide too...? Now there's for showing off.
bigsnarf 06-07-07, 06:54 PM	Whats a pangolin,is it a lizard?
Watchman 06-07-07, 06:58 PM	No, not really (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangolin). Cute critters though.
bigsnarf 06-07-07, 07:22 PM	They are cute.I can see a halfling barbarian wearing one as armor.
tarkin 06-08-07, 10:57 AM	What you propose makes zero logical sense. Here are a set of rule 1s for various things Rule 1. for metal armors: Harder the metal = harder per inch = better armor. Rule 1. for hides attached to their original creatures: THICKER hides = better armor. (That is, a Rhino has thick hide because it is quite literally 3 inches thick) Rule 1. for making hide/leather armor: The thicker the hide the less you can move in it. If armor is too thick, your speed goes down (i.e. it counts as Heavy armor), your Max Dex drops VERY quickly, and your Skill penalty goes UP, very quickly. (That is, if you kill a rhino, the first thing you do is scrape that 3 inches down to 1/2 inch, or else no human could wear it.) ---------------- Now, look at existing leather/Hide armor. Leather Armor: Light +2 AC Max Dex= 6, Penalty = 0 Hide Armor: Medium +3 AC Max Dex =4, Penalty = -3 Leather and Hide armor would typically be made from Bison (large cows) and Boars (pigs) Bison Natural Armor: +4 Boar Natural Armor: +6 OK things we can figure out. Important fact 1. Having a Natural armor of 6 is NOT going to give you anything better than normal Leather or Hide. Important fact 2. In order to make Hide armor, we do a process called SCRAPING. This thins the hide down so that it is thin enough to wear and ONLY count as Medium armor instead of Heavy armor. It also raises the max dex and reduces the skill penalty. If we did not do this, we could not wear the armor. important fact 3. To be even MORE effecient, we then process the hide a lot turning it into leather. While this process does soften it some, most people consider the tremodous increase in Max Dex, decrease in SKill penalty, and the change from Medium to Light Armor, to be worth the minor loss of AC. ------------------------------ Conclusions for making your own Special Hide/Leather armor. 1. Merely finding a creature with a high natural armor does NOTHING at all to help you. Those are common, and exist in the real world. 2. If you are willing to take an even lower max Dex and a skill penalty, and accept it as "Heavy Armor", you might be able to limit the scraping on Boar skin, (or any other creature with a +6 or higher Natural Armor). But I expect it will not be worth it. I.E. to get Hide Armor +4, you probably have to accept a Max Dex of 2, and a skill penalty of -5. Otherwise cavemen would have done that already. 3. The other concept would be to look for a creature that achieved a high Natural armor without having thick hides. Specifically, I would look for a creature that has a Natural Armor of 6 or greater and was SMALL or smaller. You would of course have to kill many of those creatures and stich their skins to gether. But you might be able to achieve an Armor better than Hide armor. But don't expect it to be directly related to the Natural Armor of the creature. Instead I would hope for something like Hide armor except it provides a +5 AC, without increasing/changing anything else
Watchman 06-08-07, 11:23 AM	Uh, tark ? As far as a leather/hide/whatever armour's effect on mobility and stuff goes, the thickness is rather secondary to things like weight and cut, ie. how much it actually burdens the wearer and restricts his movements. Just pointing out. But I'll agree that there in practice exists the normal tradeoff of "more protection = more weight and trouble". I've no damn idea how thick and heavy those seven-layer rhinoceros-hide cuirasses ancient Chinese charioteers used were, but I'm willing to bet price wasn't the only reason the infantry didn't touch the things.
bigsnarf 06-08-07, 05:36 PM	OK,this is what Im going to do,Im going to just use hide armor that looks cool.Because we cant just go to the zoo and look at a T-Rex,we cant tell what the hide is like.I only asked cause I want some lost world nasty gobliniod tribe that hunts dinosaurs for food and materials for tools.Yes I know that a T-Rex is like huge and goblins are small,they just use the old"fool them into falling into a spiked pit"routine.
Watchman 06-08-07, 05:47 PM	"Lure the big idiot over a cliff" ought to work too. I understand Big Rex is thought to have had all the cleverness of your average crocodile (on basis of general similarities of the brain cavity) - see food, attack food. Anyway, reptilian scales haven't really changed one bit in zillion years at their baseline and I understand the fossils sometimes yield a pretty decent idea of what some dinos' hides were like. Colours, of course, are anyone's guess.
bigsnarf 06-08-07, 06:18 PM	So hide armor is a safe bet?the more I think about it,predators dont normally have heavy hides,it was the herbivores that where the ones with heavy armor.I also dont want to make it too exotic,then the players would be hunting them for some type of superarmor that has the cheese factor template added to it.I just want the goblins to look nasty,ugly,and savage,which they are anyways,but these look coooooooool.They run around with hide armor,slings and clubs.If I make em to buff,then the goblins cant die in droves.Think of the old movie Zulu in a lost world setting with lots of tribes of goblins with populations in the tens of thousands.The players are like the Brits in the movie,stuck in between a rock and a hard place.Its one of those"how the heck do we get out of here alive?"adventures.The goblins breed like cockroaches and have infested the island,both above and below ground.
Watchman 06-08-07, 06:29 PM	I'd say Leather were a safer bet in most configurations - these Gobbos sound like they'd be much more into light infantry/skirmish/guerilla style tactics, and the movement penalites of even Medium armour don't really fly well with that. Stronger versions of the same basic armour - with multiple layers of leather, bone/horn reinforcements or scales, whatever - would presumably add up to Studded Leather and eventually Scale, but that latter would logically be rare and only used by "heavy hitter" specialists whose job is straight shock combat rather than freewheeling fast-paced melee and skirmishing. Elite "guard" warrior types and such. And if you're going to be swarming hapless PCs with hordes of naty Gobbos, always keep in mind what devious uses Small stature can be put to. "Did these little bastards have to make their tunnels so low ?" :D
Edymnion 06-08-07, 06:32 PM	SO should it just be hide armor that looks really wicked tough?Yes. Even dragonhide only becomes a suit of masterwork hide armor when you use it, and I don't think a T-Rex has tougher hide than a dragon.
bondious 06-09-07, 04:14 AM	Yes. Even dragonhide only becomes a suit of masterwork hide armor when you use it, and I don't think a T-Rex has tougher hide than a dragon. If that's all you want, then yeah. :rolleyes: :D
jaelis 06-09-07, 08:23 AM	On the other hand, if you wanted to make a suit of say +6 AC, Max dex 1, ACP -5 heavy armor from a dinosaur hide, you could always say that it has been alchemically treated to make it tougher. It would probably cost about 800 gp, and would automatically be masterwork. (PS - That is just renaming dragonhide banded armor.)
bigsnarf 06-09-07, 08:27 AM	OK,leather for goblins,and the hide is for hobgoblins.Im not giving bugbears anything but a wicker shield and warpaint,there tough without armor and they need to real sneaky.Like I said,if I make them too tough the PC's will get slaughtered.Which may just happen anyways if they dont use their brains.