Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morval 08-26-07, 07:09 AM	I apologize if this is an obvious question and I'm just missing the answer, but here it goes. I also searched the forum, but didn't really find anything. As per p155 PHB Disarm: "As a melee attack you may attempt to disarm your opponent." "If the item you are attempting to disarm isn't a melee weapon (for instance a bow or a wand), the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty..." ------ My question is what would the opposed attack roll be if the defender had a bow or even worse a wand? Does he get his full ranged attack bonuses with a bow or is he opposing the disarm attack as if he was using the bow as a club in melee? Does he use his DEX or his STR? What about the wand? Does the defender simply get his BAB only (plus the penalty of course). Or am I simply missing something here and making a big fuss out of nothing? :) Thanks, Konrad
Malek2991 08-26-07, 08:36 AM	It would be an opposed melee attack roll, so it would use your base attack bonus and your STR modifier as well as any other applicable modifiers.
Dheran 08-26-07, 11:47 AM	My question is what would the opposed attack roll be if the defender had a bow or even worse a wand? Does he get his full ranged attack bonuses with a bow or is he opposing the disarm attack as if he was using the bow as a club in melee? Does he use his DEX or his STR? What about the wand? Does the defender simply get his BAB only (plus the penalty of course). Or am I simply missing something here and making a big fuss out of nothing? :) Here's what you're missing, Konrad:Improvised Weapons Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. Using a bow as a melee weapon equates to using an improvised club (as you surmised), but a wand is way too light to qualify:Wands A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick. Physical Description A typical wand is 6 inches to 12 inches long and about ¼ inch thick, and often weighs no more than 1 ounce. Because it's so light there aren't any comparable D&D weapons. My suggestion is to treat a wand as doing only 1d2 damage at medium size, and 1d1 (that is, just 1 point only) at small size, doing piercing damage. Due to the very light weight your only offensive use would be to jab at an enemy's soft spots. As improvised melee weapons you'd use STR rather than DEX for the opposed roll -- although Weapon Finesse would apply to the wand (if you had the feat) because it's a light weapon.
Kouk 08-26-07, 12:54 PM	I apologize if this is an obvious question and I'm just missing the answer, but here it goes. I also searched the forum, but didn't really find anything. As per p155 PHB Disarm: "As a melee attack you may attempt to disarm your opponent." "If the item you are attempting to disarm isn't a melee weapon (for instance a bow or a wand), the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty..." ------ My question is what would the opposed attack roll be if the defender had a bow or even worse a wand? Does he get his full ranged attack bonuses with a bow or is he opposing the disarm attack as if he was using the bow as a club in melee? Does he use his DEX or his STR? What about the wand? Does the defender simply get his BAB only (plus the penalty of course). Or am I simply missing something here and making a big fuss out of nothing? :) Thanks, Konrad It is an opposed melee attack roll. BAB + STR (or DEX with Weapon Finesse), and you get a -4 for using a non-weapon. Bows are often described as being improvised clubs, and clubs can't benefit from Weapon Finesse.
Morval 08-26-07, 02:52 PM	It is an opposed melee attack roll. BAB + STR (or DEX with Weapon Finesse), and you get a -4 for using a non-weapon. Bows are often described as being improvised clubs, and clubs can't benefit from Weapon Finesse. I thank everyone for their excellent answers and quick response. I've still got some questions though :) Does the person doing the disarming get all of their regular to hit bonuses (BAB, STR, magic weapon?, etc.) or is it stricktly BAB + STR vs BAB +STR (usually)? Thanks again Konrad
Morval 08-26-07, 03:10 PM	It is an opposed melee attack roll. BAB + STR (or DEX with Weapon Finesse), and you get a -4 for using a non-weapon. Bows are often described as being improvised clubs, and clubs can't benefit from Weapon Finesse. So the defender's -4 mentioned in the disarm is really the -4 mentioned in improvised weapons I would assume, they don't get -8 in total :) Could you also not assume that the +4 bonus for defenders wielding two-handed weapons would apply to a bow? I say this becuase I think the bonus is more for how many hands you have on the item at the time of the attempted disarm, not how heavy or large the item is? Also a bow is a bit closer to a Staff than a club I would say in the way you would use it if you had to. I don't think anyone would swing a 6' lonbow with one hand. The damage would be less than a quarter staff and of course its an improvied weapon so you get a -4. Konrad
Kouk 08-26-07, 03:45 PM	So the defender's -4 mentioned in the disarm is really the -4 mentioned in improvised weapons I would assume, they don't get -8 in total :) I'm really not entirely sure myself, but if you do stack them, then Disarms are pretty much guaranteed against non-weapons. I think there should be a little challenge at least heh. Could you also not assume that the +4 bonus for defenders wielding two-handed weapons would apply to a bow? I say this becuase I think the bonus is more for how many hands you have on the item at the time of the attempted disarm, not how heavy or large the item is? Also a bow is a bit closer to a Staff than a club I would say in the way you would use it if you had to. I don't think anyone would swing a 6' lonbow with one hand. The damage would be less than a quarter staff and of course its an improvied weapon so you get a -4. The bonuses +4 for a two handed weapon is based mostly on the weapon size rather than how you are holding it, because a 2-handed weapon is a category of weapon on the weapon chart. A big two-handed sword swung at the same speed would have more momentum, is the reasoning I suppose. I think a decent houserule might be to allow a +4 bonus on your roll to resist a Disarm though, if you are holding a 1 handed weapon with both hands. Light weapons can't be wielded with 2 hands, so that isn't even an option. Improvised weapons are tough to pin down if they don't spell out what they count as (such as arrows and bolts) so just decide on something. The base damage would be the same whether you chose club or quarterstaff though, and I doubt you could use TWF with a bow. If you have a free hand, I think it would be silly not to use both on a bow, just for the extra damage in the off-chance you score a hit with it in melee, and if there was some benefit to be had I imagine you would use both hands whenever possible to resist a Disarm of your bow. I would just apply the -4 for being an improvised (not a melee weapon) weapon and not consider how many hands you were using on it though. There is the elvencraft bow I believe, in Races of the Wild, which is a bow that can be used like a club with no penalties for being an improvised weapon, so there is that precedent for it. Personally I don't think a normal (non-elvencraft) bow should even do 1d6 damage, as it is fairly thin and flexible, maybe 1d4, but it usually isn't worth getting that in-depth with it.
Morval 08-26-07, 04:19 PM	I'm really not entirely sure myself, but if you do stack them, then Disarms are pretty much guaranteed against non-weapons. I think there should be a little challenge at least heh. The bonuses +4 for a two handed weapon is based mostly on the weapon size rather than how you are holding it, because a 2-handed weapon is a category of weapon on the weapon chart. A big two-handed sword swung at the same speed would have more momentum, is the reasoning I suppose. I think a decent houserule might be to allow a +4 bonus on your roll to resist a Disarm though, if you are holding a 1 handed weapon with both hands. Light weapons can't be wielded with 2 hands, so that isn't even an option. Improvised weapons are tough to pin down if they don't spell out what they count as (such as arrows and bolts) so just decide on something. The base damage would be the same whether you chose club or quarterstaff though, and I doubt you could use TWF with a bow. If you have a free hand, I think it would be silly not to use both on a bow, just for the extra damage in the off-chance you score a hit with it in melee, and if there was some benefit to be had I imagine you would use both hands whenever possible to resist a Disarm of your bow. I would just apply the -4 for being an improvised (not a melee weapon) weapon and not consider how many hands you were using on it though. There is the elvencraft bow I believe, in Races of the Wild, which is a bow that can be used like a club with no penalties for being an improvised weapon, so there is that precedent for it. Personally I don't think a normal (non-elvencraft) bow should even do 1d6 damage, as it is fairly thin and flexible, maybe 1d4, but it usually isn't worth getting that in-depth with it. Great info, but I think we are looking at it from the wrong direction. Its not how much damage the weapon can do since its an opposed disarm attack. I don't think the amount of damage the weapon can do has anything to do with if the disarm is succesful or not. Light weapons can be used in two hands (p113 PHB), they just do not get any advantage on damage from your STR (x1.5). But doing damage does not really have anything to do with disarming or defending from a disrm. A quarterstaff is a two handed weapon and yet it only weighs 4lbs compared to a greatswords 8lbs or a greataxes 12lbs. I know a bow is not a "Two-handed" weapon, but it is used with two hands and I would say opposing a disarm try you woul hang on to it with your two hands. I do think that weight has some relationship to damage, but its not damage we are doing, but trying to take the weapon away from the defender. I know I'm getting too indepth and its just a game, but it bugs me when rules are not spelt out properly. :) Sometimes its almost as much fun debating the rules than it is playing. :) Konrad
Morval 08-26-07, 04:26 PM	Sort of on topic is a question about Sunder as well, probably should start a new thread. P158 PHB The weilder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on his roll, and a wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. Does this only apply to the attacker or to both attacker and defender? I'm assuming just the attacker the way its worded, but I don't see why it shouldn't apply to both. Although I don't see how you could sunder a dagger with a greatsword, but the above would give the attacker +4 and the defender a -4, a big advantage for the greatsword. A greatsword could of course sunder a dagger just sitting there on the ground, but actually connecting with a dagger wielded by someone in battle, sounds like fantasy....oh ya we are playing fantasy :) Konrad
Merestil Haye 08-26-07, 06:12 PM	The bonuses +4 for a two handed weapon is based mostly on the weapon size rather than how you are holding it, because a 2-handed weapon is a category of weapon on the weapon chart. A big two-handed sword swung at the same speed would have more momentum, is the reasoning I suppose.That turns out not to be the case. A one-handed weapon being wielded in two hands is treated as being a two-handed weapon, according to the rules. It would get the +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll. Light weapons can't be wielded with 2 hands, so that isn't even an option.That matters for wands - they count as light weapons because there is nothing lower than Light. In 3.0 Daggers used to be one category smaller than Shortswords, but that was abolished in the 3.5 conversion - they are now both Tiny objects. So is a wand. Treat it as any other light weapon for Disarm checks. Improvised weapons are tough to pin down if they don't spell out what they count as (such as arrows and bolts) so just decide on something. The base damage would be the same whether you chose club or quarterstaff though, and I doubt you could use TWF with a bow.The Elvencraft bows in Races of the Wild that are both bows and melee weapons. Longbows are equivalent to Quarterstaffs and Shortbows equivalent to clubs. Also, two hands are required to use a bow of any size - so they always get the bonus for two-handed weapon. They'd also get the improvised weapon penalty (unless they are elvencraft or an equivalent).
Morval 08-26-07, 06:13 PM	I found some clarification in the FAQ about light weapons, doesn't help totally. You can get a host of benefits from wielding a twohanded weapon, such as 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage (and twice your damage bonus from the Power Attack feat) and a +4 bonus on your opposed attack roll if someone tries to disarm you. So when is a weapon “twohanded?” For example, a lance is a two-handed weapon, right? But you can wield it in one hand when you’re mounted. Since the weapons table shows that a lance is a two-handed weapon, I get all the two-handed benefits no matter how I wield the lance, right? Wrong. Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook lists weapons as light, one-handed, or two-handed strictly as a matter of convenience. These size categories are always relative to the wielder’s size, as explained in some detail in the section on weapon size on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook (also see next question). When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon. Light weapons are an exception. If you wield a light weapon in two hands you get no advantage on damage (see page 113 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, you always take a –4 penalty on your opposed roll when you’re wielding a light weapon in a disarm attempt (when someone tries to D&D FAQ v.3.5 44 Update Version: 07/13/07 disarm you or you try to disarm someone) regardless of whether you wield it one- or two-handed
Kouk 08-26-07, 06:52 PM	The reason I was talking about damage was for the issue of trying to figure out a bow's stats as an improvised weapon. Ok, so elvencraft longbow counts as a staff and a shortbow as a club. I don't own that book so I didn't know for sure. About a bow: it always requires two hands to use, that is true. I was working on the assumption though, that you would only actually hold it with one hand, and your other hand would be holding an arrow (or nothing). Meaning, if someone was to Disarm you of your bow, you are only holding it with one hand. Bows aren't listed as "two handed weapons" they are listed as Ranged Weapons. If you were to use the bowstaff in melee as an improvised weapon, you would then probably use both hands directly on the bow, and then it would count as a two handed weapon. The FAQ ruling is interesting, it makes sense. Thanks for quoting that.