Disarm rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Disarm rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TruePaper
06-01-05, 07:13 AM Hey, would someone mind explainging the disarm rules to me?

I know that it Provokes a attack of op. but my DM wants it to add weapon AC to have a to hit role before a attack of op. then opposed attack rolls etc.

Is this generaly what DMs do? Is this as players okay? Maybe a simple break down in th rules will show me, but im just not making the conection.
NeueRegel
06-01-05, 07:30 AM The opponent's weapon doesn't get an AC. You two are making opposed attack rolls to represent superior/inferior swordplay +luck, to see if you can disarm.

Never forget that the game combat mechanics are super-simplified, an abstract way of approaching a complicated issue.

It gets more confusing in sunder rules. You make opposed weapon rolls with your respective weapons, and then can apply damage to the guy's shield...

Neue
Radijs
06-01-05, 07:56 AM Armor doesnt come in to play at all with disarm. You just both make an attack roll adding all applicable modifiers. If you win the roll the disarm is succesful. If you lose you both reroll and if you lose again your opponent has disarmed you. Pure and simple.
TruePaper
06-01-05, 10:12 AM Alrighty when i say AC i mean weapon modifyers like small weapons get a +4 due to there size or a great sord has a -4 etc.

Another question i have about disarming rules is when they try to disarm me if i fail. Does the size of there weapon then impede or help there attempt to disarm me? I assume it wouldn't help unless it was a spiked chain or a flail or a weapon of that mannor.
chocobochicken
06-01-05, 01:19 PM Here's what the rules say:

Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a –4 penalty on the roll.

So yes, your DM is following the rules. If you fail and the opponent attempts to disarm you, these exact same rules apply.
kjenks
06-01-05, 04:19 PM But there's nothing in the Disarm rules about adding the weapon's AC.

As chocobochicken says, that's step 2. Disarm is a three-step attack, similar to a regular two-step melee attack (where you roll an attack then you roll damage).

You can make a Disarm attack any time you can make a regular melee attack, including as part of a full attack, with two-weapon fighting, as an attack of opportunity (AoO), and as your single melee attack at the end of a charge.

Each time you try to Disarm during a full attack, your attack bonus is at successively lower increments (-5, -10, -15), but the defender keeps his full attack bonus for each of his opposed rolls, so it's harder to disarm on each iterative attack.

You can Disarm as an AoO, per footnote 7 of the combat actions table. You must follow all of the usual rules for AoOs.

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to disarm. (If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a disarm attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your disarm attempt fails.

That AoO must follow the usual rules for an AoO, where the target must threaten your square with a melee weapon to make the AoO, and the target must not be flat-footed, etc. So if you disarm the target using your reach weapon (whip, guisarme, whatever), he may not get an AoO. If you disarm a flat-footed opponent, he doesn't get an AoO (unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat).

You don't provoke an AoO from anybody else, just the target. (Unless you're using a whip to disarm. Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity from everybody who threatens you, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.)

Ironically, the defender can use this AoO to attempt to Disarm you. Since AoOs are resolved before the action which provokes them, you can enter into an "AoO Chain" where your opponent's Disarm attack itself provokes an AoO from you, and you can use that to Disarm him. This can continue until one of you runs out of AoOs. If you both have the Combat Reflexes feat and high Dex bonuses, this could take some time.

Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a –4 penalty on the roll.

The defender is almost always allowed to make an opposed roll even when he's flat-footed, denied his Dex bonus to AC, dazed, panicked, etc.

All of the usual bonuses and penalties which apply to melee attack rolls also apply to opposed Disarm attacks, like flanking, charging, higher ground, prone, morale bonuses (Bless spell, bardsong), luck bonuses (Prayer spell), insight bonuses (True Strike spell, psionics), enhancement bonuses on weapon, Skill Focus feat, various conditions (dazzled, shaken, etc.), etc.

If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent, but no bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to defend yourself from being disarmed.

In addition, some weapons give an unnamed bonus on Disarm checks (Spiked Chain, Dire Flail, Flail or Heavy Flail, Nunchaku, Ranseur, Sai, Whip).

Per the PH rules for opposed rolls, ties go to the one with the higher bonus, so if I have a +4, you have a +3, and we both get a total of 17, I win. If we both have +5 and we both get a total of 17, we re-roll.

The Main 3.5e FAQ has some more rules about Disarm with a one-handed weapon held in two hands. The old 3e FAQ had an entry saying that the Disarm attacker has an auto-success on a natural 20 and an auto-failure on a natural 1, but natural 20/1 doesn't mean anything special for the Disarm defender, but it's not clear that this still applies in 3.5e.

Step Three: Consequences. If you beat the defender, the defender is disarmed. If you attempted the disarm action unarmed, you now have the weapon. If you were armed, the defender’s weapon is on the ground in the defender’s square.

If you fail on the disarm attempt, the defender may immediately react and attempt to disarm you with the same sort of opposed melee attack roll. His attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from you. If he fails his disarm attempt, you do not subsequently get a free disarm attempt against him.

And if the defender's weapon is on the ground in his square, you can reach into his square and pick it up (move action, provokes AoOs, but if the other guy is disarmed, he probably won't threaten you and can't make an AoO). (Assuming you have at least a 5 ft. reach.)
mvincent
06-01-05, 05:14 PM So yes, your DM is following the rules.I think Truepaper was implying that his DM would make it harder to disarm a small weapon (since it's a small target) rather than easier (as per the rules).
Bantam
06-01-05, 08:10 PM The DM seems to be getting the disarm rules mixed up with disarming ranged weapons in D20 Modern or Star Wars RPG.
Zieg
06-01-05, 08:27 PM I agree with MVincent. Normally bigger weapons and bigger opponents are more difficult to disarm in D&D, while smaller weapons and smaller opponents are easier to disarm. If your DM is doing the opposite, his not following the rules for D&D.

But I do want to alert you not to approach your DM too angry when you talk with him about this subject. Using the rules as he is doing does have some logic to it, a DM has the right to interpret the rules as he sees fit. The last thing I would want is to sound like a rules lawyer to my DM. Instead call him for a particular chat and talk about the problem, that would be a perfect solution.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TruePaper 06-01-05, 07:13 AM	Hey, would someone mind explainging the disarm rules to me? I know that it Provokes a attack of op. but my DM wants it to add weapon AC to have a to hit role before a attack of op. then opposed attack rolls etc. Is this generaly what DMs do? Is this as players okay? Maybe a simple break down in th rules will show me, but im just not making the conection.
NeueRegel 06-01-05, 07:30 AM	The opponent's weapon doesn't get an AC. You two are making opposed attack rolls to represent superior/inferior swordplay +luck, to see if you can disarm. Never forget that the game combat mechanics are super-simplified, an abstract way of approaching a complicated issue. It gets more confusing in sunder rules. You make opposed weapon rolls with your respective weapons, and then can apply damage to the guy's shield... Neue
Radijs 06-01-05, 07:56 AM	Armor doesnt come in to play at all with disarm. You just both make an attack roll adding all applicable modifiers. If you win the roll the disarm is succesful. If you lose you both reroll and if you lose again your opponent has disarmed you. Pure and simple.
TruePaper 06-01-05, 10:12 AM	Alrighty when i say AC i mean weapon modifyers like small weapons get a +4 due to there size or a great sord has a -4 etc. Another question i have about disarming rules is when they try to disarm me if i fail. Does the size of there weapon then impede or help there attempt to disarm me? I assume it wouldn't help unless it was a spiked chain or a flail or a weapon of that mannor.
chocobochicken 06-01-05, 01:19 PM	Here's what the rules say: Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a –4 penalty on the roll. So yes, your DM is following the rules. If you fail and the opponent attempts to disarm you, these exact same rules apply.
kjenks 06-01-05, 04:19 PM	But there's nothing in the Disarm rules about adding the weapon's AC. As chocobochicken says, that's step 2. Disarm is a three-step attack, similar to a regular two-step melee attack (where you roll an attack then you roll damage). You can make a Disarm attack any time you can make a regular melee attack, including as part of a full attack, with two-weapon fighting, as an attack of opportunity (AoO), and as your single melee attack at the end of a charge. Each time you try to Disarm during a full attack, your attack bonus is at successively lower increments (-5, -10, -15), but the defender keeps his full attack bonus for each of his opposed rolls, so it's harder to disarm on each iterative attack. You can Disarm as an AoO, per footnote 7 of the combat actions table. You must follow all of the usual rules for AoOs. Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to disarm. (If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a disarm attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your disarm attempt fails. That AoO must follow the usual rules for an AoO, where the target must threaten your square with a melee weapon to make the AoO, and the target must not be flat-footed, etc. So if you disarm the target using your reach weapon (whip, guisarme, whatever), he may not get an AoO. If you disarm a flat-footed opponent, he doesn't get an AoO (unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat). You don't provoke an AoO from anybody else, just the target. (Unless you're using a whip to disarm. Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity from everybody who threatens you, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.) Ironically, the defender can use this AoO to attempt to Disarm you. Since AoOs are resolved before the action which provokes them, you can enter into an "AoO Chain" where your opponent's Disarm attack itself provokes an AoO from you, and you can use that to Disarm him. This can continue until one of you runs out of AoOs. If you both have the Combat Reflexes feat and high Dex bonuses, this could take some time. Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a –4 penalty on the roll. The defender is almost always allowed to make an opposed roll even when he's flat-footed, denied his Dex bonus to AC, dazed, panicked, etc. All of the usual bonuses and penalties which apply to melee attack rolls also apply to opposed Disarm attacks, like flanking, charging, higher ground, prone, morale bonuses (Bless spell, bardsong), luck bonuses (Prayer spell), insight bonuses (True Strike spell, psionics), enhancement bonuses on weapon, Skill Focus feat, various conditions (dazzled, shaken, etc.), etc. If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent, but no bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to defend yourself from being disarmed. In addition, some weapons give an unnamed bonus on Disarm checks (Spiked Chain, Dire Flail, Flail or Heavy Flail, Nunchaku, Ranseur, Sai, Whip). Per the PH rules for opposed rolls, ties go to the one with the higher bonus, so if I have a +4, you have a +3, and we both get a total of 17, I win. If we both have +5 and we both get a total of 17, we re-roll. The Main 3.5e FAQ has some more rules about Disarm with a one-handed weapon held in two hands. The old 3e FAQ had an entry saying that the Disarm attacker has an auto-success on a natural 20 and an auto-failure on a natural 1, but natural 20/1 doesn't mean anything special for the Disarm defender, but it's not clear that this still applies in 3.5e. Step Three: Consequences. If you beat the defender, the defender is disarmed. If you attempted the disarm action unarmed, you now have the weapon. If you were armed, the defender’s weapon is on the ground in the defender’s square. If you fail on the disarm attempt, the defender may immediately react and attempt to disarm you with the same sort of opposed melee attack roll. His attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from you. If he fails his disarm attempt, you do not subsequently get a free disarm attempt against him. And if the defender's weapon is on the ground in his square, you can reach into his square and pick it up (move action, provokes AoOs, but if the other guy is disarmed, he probably won't threaten you and can't make an AoO). (Assuming you have at least a 5 ft. reach.)
mvincent 06-01-05, 05:14 PM	So yes, your DM is following the rules.I think Truepaper was implying that his DM would make it harder to disarm a small weapon (since it's a small target) rather than easier (as per the rules).
Bantam 06-01-05, 08:10 PM	The DM seems to be getting the disarm rules mixed up with disarming ranged weapons in D20 Modern or Star Wars RPG.
Zieg 06-01-05, 08:27 PM	I agree with MVincent. Normally bigger weapons and bigger opponents are more difficult to disarm in D&D, while smaller weapons and smaller opponents are easier to disarm. If your DM is doing the opposite, his not following the rules for D&D. But I do want to alert you not to approach your DM too angry when you talk with him about this subject. Using the rules as he is doing does have some logic to it, a DM has the right to interpret the rules as he sees fit. The last thing I would want is to sound like a rules lawyer to my DM. Instead call him for a particular chat and talk about the problem, that would be a perfect solution.