Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 02-28-05, 12:47 PM	I began to question the uses of sunder when the disarm action exists. I will try to list the differences and see what everyone thinks. Disarm vs. Sunder Action Attack Standard (Arguable) Effect Lost Weapon Damaged Weapon or Shield Special Can be countered Lost Treasure So, the question is, why would any fighter specialize in sunders when disarms are easier to accomplish and don't destroy your treasure? As a DM, I feel bad any time I put "Improved Sunder" on my NPCs, just like I feel bad when I put "Cleave" and/or "Great Cleave" on them as well; it makes me feel like I'm making the NPC just to get them. I don't know what to offer to fix things, but I'd like to know if anyone else has come to this conclusion; that the special attacks are not balanced.
adnauseum 02-28-05, 01:11 PM	Anything sundered can be repaired, and you remove it for the duration of the fight. Disarm only removes it until it's picked back up. I don't have my books handy, but I believe the cost to repair a sundered item is half the cost to make it. I could be wrong about that. Disarm also requires a different set of abilities, as it branches from the expertise tree if I'm not mistaken, where sunder branches off the power attack tree. So it's safe to say smart fighters disarm, where brutes just break stuff. Rather than it being a question of one being better than the other, it seems it's more of a question of which fighter are you, the shifty swordmaster whose prowess leaves your opponent frustrated and in awe, or the brutal, bulging, fear invoking franken-beast who leaves splinters of .....everything...in his wake?
q'afuu 02-28-05, 01:12 PM	Nobody says the treasure the party recovers from adventures has to come from recovered weapons, or that they have to be counted against that. If your PCs routinely miss out on stuff because it gets sundered or burnt or otherwise damaged beyond repair, just make up for it by adding a little to the loot in the treasure chest or on the pagan altar or dragon hoard or whatever. Sundering might be a better choice than disarming for certain characters because of the different requirements for the Impr. Sunder and Impr. Disarm feats respectively (without these, neither tactic is really a good choice). Not every warrior character is willing to spend a feat on Combat Expertise and invest in a 13 Int instead of going with Power Attack and a 13 Str.
pres_man 02-28-05, 01:20 PM	Why sunder over disarm? Hydras :D :invasion:
tarkin 02-28-05, 01:22 PM	The reasons to take Sunder are: Adamantine weapons (Ignore hardness less than 20) You are limited in the amount of treasure you may take (Vow of Poverty) You can't use magic items --------------- But you are correct, it is a rare PC that actually has a good reason to take Sunder.
Sproik 02-28-05, 02:00 PM	I also like the intimidation value. At last we meet, human filth! Now we will fight to the de-SMASH clatter. Oh. Um. Let's talk about this... And of course disarming someone might be next to impossible because they've got a high attack bonus. And if you disarm them, they might be able to pick it up on their turn anyway. Then there are locking gauntlets to consider.
Ogre4Hire 02-28-05, 02:23 PM	Another Sunder reason: can be used with any Slashing or Bludgeoning weapon. Disarm attempts can only be made with a few different weapons.
Xeviat-DM 02-28-05, 07:31 PM	Another Sunder reason: can be used with any Slashing or Bludgeoning weapon. Disarm attempts can only be made with a few different weapons. No, some weapons grant a bonus to disarm checks. Which is another thing to note. If you're fighting someone with a high attack bonus, you're going to miss on Sunder and Disarm checks. Both manuvers are done by an opposed attack roll; the difference is if you win on Disarm you are automatically successful, while if you win on Sunder you still have to roll damage. If you break a magic weapon or shield, it looses it's magic. You can repair it, but it will be only a normal masterwork item. And the book seems to imply that Sunder is a standard action, not an attack action.
chocobochicken 02-28-05, 11:49 PM	Xeviat, you have this peculiar habit of comparing apples and oranges. ;) Just like the Two-Weapon/Two-Handed debate, Sunder vs. Disarm is more about catering to individualized character styles and less about perfect balance between the two tactics. An intelligent rogue will likely make good use out of taking Improved Disarm if he took CE to get Improved Feint (and besides, objects are immune to SA damage to make Sunder effective). On the other hand, a frenzied berserker who gets triple Power Attack bonuses may find it useful to reduce his opponents into making AoO-inducing unarmed attacks, and he certainly have the damage output to make this useful. There's no easy way to say one is universally better than the other. Also, I don't know where you got the impression that Sunder was a standard action, but the very first line for each action in the SRD is pretty specific: DISARM As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. TRIP You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. SUNDER You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. I don't see where there's much margin for differing interpretations on this one. Every special attack action listed in that chapter is pretty explicit about what type of action is required.
Xeviat-DM 03-01-05, 02:26 AM	Also, I don't know where you got the impression that Sunder was a standard action, but the very first line for each action in the SRD is pretty specific: I don't see where there's much margin for differing interpretations on this one. Every special attack action listed in that chapter is pretty explicit about what type of action is required. Actually, there is a chart in the PHB for action types, and sunder is listed with the standard actions, not the attack actions where trip and disarm are listed. I personally treat sunder as an attack action in my games, but as of now the RAW seem to contradict me. As for apples and oranges, think of it from the fighter's perspective, you know, the one who has 18+ feats to spend? Having both improved disarm and improved sunder is well within their realm of ability. The only time improved sunder will ever be more useful is against shields. Perhaps the fact that you can be counter disarmed if you fail might be one thing. It just seems to me that, given the option, I would rather play a fighter with a bonus to disarm weapon and focus on disarm rather than spending a feat on improved sunder for that purpose. The mention of the hydra earlier did get me thinking, and it does serve other purposes, I'll admit to that. So perhaps they're fair, if one allows sunder to be performed with an attack action.
q'afuu 03-01-05, 06:02 AM	Actually, there is a chart in the PHB for action types, and sunder is listed with the standard actions, not the attack actions where trip and disarm are listed. I personally treat sunder as an attack action in my games, but as of now the RAW seem to contradict me. From the 3.5 Main FAQ, p. 28: Is sunder a special standard action or is it a melee attack variant? It has its own entry on the actions table, but the text describing it refers to it as a melee attack. Is sunder a melee attack only in the sense of hitting something with a melee weapon, or is sunder a true melee attack? Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive text for the Manyshot feat says). If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once, or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking and sundering. Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8-2: Actions in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder feat). You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or attack of opportunity).
Vatras 03-01-05, 02:31 PM	You can use Sunder on shields and weapons you do not want as loot...say a giants club.
meabolex 03-01-05, 03:10 PM	Gauntlet, locked 8 gp +5 lb. Gauntlet, Locked: This armored gauntlet has small chains and braces that allow the wearer to attach a weapon to the gauntlet so that it cannot be dropped easily. It provides a +10 bonus on any roll made to keep from being disarmed in combat. Removing a weapon from a locked gauntlet or attaching a weapon to a locked gauntlet is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The price given is for a single locked gauntlet. The weight given applies only if you’re wearing a breastplate, light armor, or no armor. Otherwise, the locked gauntlet replaces a gauntlet you already have as part of the armor. While the gauntlet is locked, you can’t use the hand wearing it for casting spells or employing skills. (You can still cast spells with somatic components, provided that your other hand is free.) Like a normal gauntlet, a locked gauntlet lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. So, for 8 measly gold, a melee character becomes practically undisarmable. +10 is, in most cases, as good as "forget about it." A PC focusing on disarm is at the mercy of the DM. Sunder is more difficult to prevent. Also, the weapon cannot be recovered.
Nyferto 03-02-05, 03:40 AM	It's mostly covered here, but it is tactical. It can be easier to sunder an item because you only role an opposed role when it comes sundering a sword or shield, anything else like an Arcane/Divine Focus and Sundering is the easiest option. If you disarm someone of a weapon - they might just pick it up again, if you sunder it - no-one gets to use it until repaired. At that point you might sunder an item for being too powerful, or it may be more vital to sunder a dangerous item. As said, Sunder is Str based, whilst Disarm can be purely dexterity focused with Weapon Finnesse. Both suffer some major disadvantages depending on the weapon size you're using though.
Wizard 03-02-05, 04:02 PM	You usually get at least an AoO out of disarm, as well as the prevention (for one round, anyway) of a full attack from the disarmed opponent. The whole "instant success" thing is nice as well. And that AoO can be used to stop them from picking up the weapon, as well. Note that you cannot disarm them of the weapon with the AoO they incur from picking it up---AoO's interrupt the normal flow of actions, so they haven't actually picked it up yet. The same applies to tripping---you can't trip someone w/the AoO they incur from standing up. But if you were to, say, grapple them while they were picking up their weapon... I'm playing a paladin in a duel with a fighter at the moment, and I've disarmed her of all but one weapon. I'm planning to disarm her of the last one, and then have the mount grapple her when she tries to pick one of them up.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 03-02-05, 04:18 PM	Let's not forget the combat brute tactical feat (complete warrior). It allow you to use sundering cleave (free attack after a successfull sunder). It makes sundering tacticaly usefull (negate the foe's weapon and attack at the same time) and is cool-looking as hell (with a mighty heave, you cut threw you foe's sword like butter to slice him from shoulder to waist...)