Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anauroch 10-30-06, 04:16 PM	I am building a whip wielder and have a few questions concerning the way the disarm maneuver works in certain cases: First, a ranged disarm with a whip does not incur an AoO, correct? So improved disarm is no necessity at first? Second, would a normal opposed check for a 1st level urban ranger with Dex and weapon finesse 18 work the following way? Opposed attack rolls: +1 BAB +4 Dex +2 whip = +7? How about disarming ranged weapons? Do bows and crossbows get the +4 bonus for being used with two hands? There are arguments pro and con in my opinion... they would get the standard -4 for not being melee weapons, though... But how to handle the opposed attack roll? My character tries to rip a bow out of the hands of another character and that character gets his full attack bonus for that bow of his? Doesn't make sense imo. It should rather be his BAB + strength I guess... Thoughts? Thanks!
ReverseCausality 10-30-06, 04:32 PM	Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). Whips do incur AoOs as noted. However, if they aren't close enough to threaten you, no AoO will occur. Both sides make attack rolls with your respective weapons at whatever bonus is applied. That means the +7 as you mentioned, and I imagine that the archer gets to use his bonus exactly as it is also. Strength and Dexterity both make sense in different ways. Dexterity can spin the weapon, pull back, maintain a grip as the weapon slips around and all such. Similarly with the disarm attempt where the bow can be pulled back with a flourish while the whip is still wrapped around it. I'm not sure if bows would get the two-handed bonus, but I think crossbows should. Bows you usually have one hand on the string, so allowing two-handed bonus is questionable, but both hands are usually on the crossbow. It's an iffy question but that's what I'd go with.
draconic_swine 10-30-06, 05:19 PM	First, a ranged disarm with a whip does not incur an AoO, correct? So improved disarm is no necessity at first? Technically, an AoO does still occur, but as ReverseCausality said, if your opponent can't reach you, they can't actually make the AoO. Remember, though, if you're within the threat range of somebody else they still get an AoO against you for using a whip, and even taking Improved Disarm won't remove this AoO. Similarly, when you take Improved Disarm and disarm an opponent, if they can reach you, they will still get their AoO just for you using a whip. Second, would a normal opposed check for a 1st level urban ranger with Dex and weapon finesse 18 work the following way? Opposed attack rolls: +1 BAB +4 Dex +2 whip = +7? Assuming your Dexterity is 18 or 19, this is correct. How about disarming ranged weapons? Do bows and crossbows get the +4 bonus for being used with two hands? There are arguments pro and con in my opinion... they would get the standard -4 for not being melee weapons, though... But how to handle the opposed attack roll? My character tries to rip a bow out of the hands of another character and that character gets his full attack bonus for that bow of his? Doesn't make sense imo. It should rather be his BAB + strength I guess... RAW, both bows and crossbows are two-handed weapon, so they would both get the +4 bonus. Whether or not it's realistic is up to you, so feel free to houserule something. Also like ReverseCausality said, I can see the opposed disarm roll for a bow/crossbow to be used with either Dexterity (which is RAW, since attack bonuses for ranged weapons use Dexterity) or, as you suggest, Strength. I don't see a problem with substituting Strength, as long as you can still use Dexterity if you wish. That way it'd work like resisting a trip attempt, keeping the rules consistent.
Kimokeo 10-30-06, 09:29 PM	You want Improved Disarm if you want the extras with Disarming. +4 is a great bonus Ask the Dm about disarming at 5' like a regular disarm - this is questionable since you provoke as if you used a ranged weapon yet you don't provoke the AoO of a Disarm. I think the rules are against you but it doesn't hurt to ask beforehand. Use the whip with two hands for the extra +4
Iver Gearsham 10-31-06, 02:53 AM	There is a feat to use a ranged weapon in melee without provoking AOs. If your target can't use the AO a friend of his might. Arms & Equipment by Wotc has Sweeping, Disarming and Grasping weapon powers that should help you keep your edge at higher levels.
Anauroch 10-31-06, 09:16 AM	Thanks for the replies everyone! I'm actually going to use some 3.0 material - more specifically the whip-dagger and the Lasher PrC. The Lasher PrC grants an ability at 1st level which lets you use whips without suffering AoOs and may even make AoOs against enemies within 5' with a whip. The downside will probably be that my DM is going to go with the rules on needing mighty whips to deal extra damage for high strength... (whips do deal extra damage due to high strength in 3.5, right?) Concerning disarming ranged weapons: Hm... I am not sure if it actually should be so easy to resist a disarm attempt with a bow or crossbow in hand. Getting one's full attack bonus to the opposed attack roll sounds a bit harsh... And wielding a whip in two hands? Granted, it is a one-handed weapon and therefore could be wielded in two hands... but does this then grant the +4 bonus to disarm? It's quite a weird picture, using a whip with two hands... hm... Any more thoughts on this? :)
draconic_swine 10-31-06, 10:08 AM	The downside will probably be that my DM is going to go with the rules on needing mighty whips to deal extra damage for high strength... (whips do deal extra damage due to high strength in 3.5, right?) Concerning disarming ranged weapons: Hm... I am not sure if it actually should be so easy to resist a disarm attempt with a bow or crossbow in hand. Getting one's full attack bonus to the opposed attack roll sounds a bit harsh... And wielding a whip in two hands? Granted, it is a one-handed weapon and therefore could be wielded in two hands... but does this then grant the +4 bonus to disarm? It's quite a weird picture, using a whip with two hands... hm... Any more thoughts on this? :) In 3.5, since whips are one-handed weapons that a treated as ranged weapons for provoking and threatening, do get your full Strength bonus to damage. You can also use them to Power Attack, and wield them two-handed for 1.5x Strength damage and the extra +4 to disarm. All perfectly legal, RAW, although I agree it would look odd to wield a whip one-handed. I'd say not giving bow or crossbow wielders their full BAB to oppose a disarm is a bit harsh. They already don't threaten and provoke AoOs, so if they're already within reach of a melee opponent, they're already in a world of hurt.
Anauroch 10-31-06, 10:30 AM	In 3.5, since whips are one-handed weapons that a treated as ranged weapons for provoking and threatening, do get your full Strength bonus to damage. You can also use them to Power Attack, and wield them two-handed for 1.5x Strength damage and the extra +4 to disarm. All perfectly legal, RAW, although I agree it would look odd to wield a whip one-handed. Wow... on the other hand I am mixing 3.0 and 3.5 here - and in 3.5 there isn't a whip dagger or similar weapon which deals lethal damage, is there? Not that it really matters, but that would be the downside of the weapon in that case... I'd say not giving bow or crossbow wielders their full BAB to oppose a disarm is a bit harsh. They already don't threaten and provoke AoOs, so if they're already within reach of a melee opponent, they're already in a world of hurt. I don't want to change anything about the BAB. But imagine a ranger archer with high Dex and all that... he'd be incredibly hard to disarm! Even more so if his bow counts as a 2-handed weapon... that's why I thougt about switching Dex out for Str to add to BAB... On the other hand - the strong fighter with the crossbow might just be happy about this! :confused:
draconic_swine 10-31-06, 01:11 PM	I don't want to change anything about the BAB. But imagine a ranger archer with high Dex and all that... he'd be incredibly hard to disarm! Even more so if his bow counts as a 2-handed weapon... that's why I thougt about switching Dex out for Str to add to BAB... On the other hand - the strong fighter with the crossbow might just be happy about this! :confused: I misread what you said ... I thought you mean base attack bonus. My bad. If you want to keep it fair for everyone, do what I suggested earlier ... let each person choose whether they want to use Strength or Dexterity to resist being disarmed. The rule is already in place for resisting being tripped, so this wouldn't be too big a stretch.
crossp 10-31-06, 01:25 PM	The downside will probably be that my DM is going to go with the rules on needing mighty whips to deal extra damage for high strength... (whips do deal extra damage due to high strength in 3.5, right?) And wielding a whip in two hands? Granted, it is a one-handed weapon and therefore could be wielded in two hands... but does this then grant the +4 bonus to disarm? It's quite a weird picture, using a whip with two hands... hm... In 3.5 the whip is a melee weapon and functions thusly except where noted... so yes to adding strength. If your DM wants you to buy mighty whips, ask him to let you bypass needing weapon finesse. You could perhaps imagine using one hand to wrap the whip around the weapon in question, but using two hand to do the yanking. I'd recommend learning Imp. Trip as well. In most D&D games, less than half of your opponents will be carrying weapons.
Anauroch 10-31-06, 02:21 PM	The rule is already in place for resisting being tripped, so this wouldn't be too big a stretch. I'll have a look at the modifier I end up with... and then suggest something to my DM... :D You could perhaps imagine using one hand to wrap the whip around the weapon in question, but using two hand to do the yanking. I'd recommend learning Imp. Trip as well. In most D&D games, less than half of your opponents will be carrying weapons. Yeah, the two-handed yanking does fit the theme nicely... until later when he wields two whips (hopefully)... ;) Improved Trip is a bonus feat of the Lasher PrC at 2nd level (7th character level for my character). So I'll just go with Improved Disarm first... Note: There's only one other player playing and we aren't playing any premade modules, so I guess I'll be fine with disarm for quite a while... but it's not as if I am planning on relying on it... and I can still trip with the whip even without improved trip! :)