Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jayzhee 11-24-06, 07:32 PM	Disarm, trip and sunder are all done in place of melee attacks. Does that mean I can do one of these actions as an Attack of Opportunity? If I have the Improved Trip feat, and my opponent provokes an AoO, can I use the opportunity to trip him then use the extra attack granted by Improved Trip? Could I use that extra attack to disarm the foe or sunder his weapon? Thanks a bazillion in advance!
Loki5654 11-24-06, 07:38 PM	Disarm, trip and sunder are all done in place of melee attacks. Does that mean I can do one of these actions as an Attack of Opportunity? Yes, but unless you have an Improved feat (e.g. Improved Disarm or Improved Trip) you will provoke an attack of opportunity. If I have the Improved Trip feat, and my opponent provokes an AoO, can I use the opportunity to trip him then use the extra attack granted by Improved Trip? Only if your Trip attempt succeeds. Could I use that extra attack to disarm the foe or sunder his weapon? Yes. Thanks a bazillion in advance! No problem.
Karak_Nechot 11-24-06, 10:49 PM	There's only one problem with sundering, though. As written, it is unclear if sunder is meant to be an attack, or a standard action. In the action table, it's listed as a standard action. in the sunder description, it's simply stated as a melee attack, with no specific action noted. Basically, if it's a standard action, you can't use it to make an AoO or the extra attack from Improves Trip. If it's an attack option, then it can be used just as Loki5654 stated. Frankly, I'm not sure which it is supposed to be, and WotC has not clarrified it.
draconic_swine 11-24-06, 10:53 PM	Hasn't it been stated somewhere that when a table and text contradict one another, the text takes precedence? At any rate, the same table says "Sunder a weapon (attack)" & "Sunder an object (attack)", which implies that it is indeed an attack. Besides, allowing you to sunder using an attack is hardly game-breaking.
Karak_Nechot 11-24-06, 11:00 PM	Hasn't it been stated somewhere that when a table and text contradict one another, the text takes precedence? The thing is, the table and the description DON'T contradict each other. The table lists it as a standard action, while the description doesn't say what sort of action it is at all. A very strict reading of the rules would indicate that sundering is a standard action, not something that replaces an attack. However, it's still a little unclear if that is the true intent. At any rate, the same table says "Sunder a weapon (attack)" & "Sunder an object (attack)", which implies that it is indeed an attack. And both are listed as Standard Actions, while other attack options are listed as Action Type Varies. If sunder were listed in the same section as disarm, grapple, or tripping an opponent, then it would not be an issue. However, as listed, it is an issue. Besides, allowing you to sunder using an attack is hardly game-breaking. Eh, I could see SOME potential in multiple sundering per round abuse, but, for the most part, I think you're right on that.
Jayzhee 11-24-06, 11:51 PM	The first line under Sunder (p. 158): "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or budgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding." That's what I was going by when I originally posted. I wasn't worried about sundering, though. I just included it because it seemed to work the same way as disarm and trip; I didn't look at the table.
draconic_swine 11-25-06, 12:02 AM	The thing is, the table and the description DON'T contradict each other. The table lists it as a standard action, while the description doesn't say what sort of action it is at all. A very strict reading of the rules would indicate that sundering is a standard action, not something that replaces an attack. However, it's still a little unclear if that is the true intent. As Jayzhee pointed out, a sunder attack is "a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon". The description seems to indicate pretty clearly to me that it's a melee attack and not a standard action. Also, tripping is "an unarmed melee attack" and disarming is "a melee attack". The description for all three is the same, so I don't see how sundering is any different from the other two, description-wise.
Karak_Nechot 11-25-06, 03:35 AM	Like I said, if it wasn't for the fact that the table lists sunder as standard actions, it would not be an issue. It's just that since it's seperated from the other attack options on the table, and, technically, the 'uses a melee attack' does not in fact specify an action that this is even debateable. Technically, the description of trip and disarm do not specify action types, just how the action is done. You have to use the table to get the action type.
Dheran 11-25-06, 04:53 AM	Check the FAQ. Sunder is available whenever you can make a melee attack, the same as trip and disarm (in response to a question about a monk using flurry of blows). Plus under "Special Attacks" it says:Sunder You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. A "melee attack" means that you can sunder as a standard action attack, as part of a full attack action, on an Attack of Opportunity, or whenever else a melee attack is permitted. This does contradict the erroneous extra entry listing "Sunder an object (attack)" on the "Standard Actions" table. Text always trumps table when there's a contradiction.