Disarming or Sundering with a reach weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Disarming or Sundering with a reach weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BlackFiend
10-19-04, 05:43 PM If you use a reach weapon to disarm or sunder, do these provoke attacks of opportunity? I would assume no, if you parallel this to trip attacks. If it does indeed provoke, as I believe it would...could they actually attack in the first place?

Assume neither character have the feats Improved Sunder or Improved Disarm.

For an example: A large size ice devil attempts to disarm a axewielding barbarian. The barbarian is 10' away from the ice devil.

To resolve this the following occurs:
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. The Ice Devil provoke an attack of opportunity from the barbarian. However, the defender’s attack of opportunity is incapable of doing any damage since he has no reach!

Can we assume the disarm attempt succeeds and we move on to steps 2 & 3 (opposed rolls & consequences?) since the defender is, in all instances, unable to deal damage?

The only thing I can think of is that the Barbarian can attempt to use the AoO to in turn sunder or disarm the reach weapon? But since the barbarian doesn't have improved sunder or disarm, it would in turn, provoke an AoO from the Ice Devil!

(My head is spinnning, world is twirling...please help!)
Hypersmurf
10-19-04, 06:01 PM If you use a reach weapon to disarm or sunder, do these provoke attacks of opportunity?

You provoke an Attack of Opportunity for taking certain actions in a threatened square.

If you take the Disarm action, but you are not in a threatened square, no AoO is provoked.

-Hyp.
Thorak
10-19-04, 07:36 PM Hypersmurf is perfectly correct. The inevitable people who will insist they can somehow threaten your weapon are houseruling.
BlackFiend
10-20-04, 08:51 AM So...using a reach weapon to sunder or disarm is as if you had the improved disarm or sunder, you just don't get the +4 associated bonus.

Sweeeet.
Egres
10-20-04, 09:01 AM So...using a reach weapon to sunder or disarm is as if you had the improved disarm or sunder, you just don't get the +4 associated bonus.

Sweeeet.
Try to Disarm an Ogre and you will find where the difference lies. ;)
BlackFiend
10-20-04, 09:03 AM Achhhh...touche.
Zherog
10-20-04, 11:21 AM Hypersmurf is perfectly correct. The inevitable people who will insist they can somehow threaten your weapon are houseruling.

You can however, ready an action to attack the weapon when it comes within reach - not nearly the same thing, of course.

This is one good thing about a whip. While you are unable to do damage, you can trip and/or disarm your opponents before they have a chance to close and threaten.
tarkin
10-20-04, 11:30 AM Hypersmurf is correct, but left out an important piece of information.

If you attempt to Sunder/disarm without the appropriate feats, you trigger an AoO against you, but only from people that are threatening you. If your opponent can not attack you, they are not threatening you, so they can not take an AoO against you.

However, the person being attacked in this manner may still take NON-AoO attacks against you. When you Disarm, without the Improved Disarm feat (from the SRD Special Attacks section):

If you fail on the disarm attempt, the defender may immediately react and attempt to disarm you with the same sort of opposed melee attack roll. His attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from you. If he fails his disarm attempt, you do not subsequently get a free disarm attempt against him.

This is in addition to the AoO for disarming, and is itself NOT an AoO. As such, it happens even if you are not threatening them, so the victim of a Reach Disarm still gets to do it.

If the Disarmer had the Improved Disarm attempt, it would have negated the "failed disarm revenge disarm"
Tony Vargas
10-20-04, 12:10 PM If you use a reach weapon to disarm or sunder, do these provoke attacks of opportunity? Of course they do - but, if you're not in the other guy's threatened area, he can't take it. Some DMs will bend the rules and let you take the AoO against the weapon. (It makes sense: if someone's poking at you with a ransuer, you could try to hit it.) The problem with that, is that Disarm & Sunder (about the only things you can do to a weapon) also provoke AoOs... (Which also makes sense: if someone's poking at you with a ransuer and you stop trying to parry it, and instead swing at the haft, you could get poked) That AoO could just be used to disarm or sunder (and, you can't 'chain' AoOs, so that's where it ends), and you're right back were you started (but, really, with a greater chance of you being sans weapon when it's all resolved). So, really, all allowing AoOs vs weapons when you can't threaten the wielder does is give an advantage to the character who has the Improved Disarm or Sunder feat (since, attacker or AoO-taking defender, they don't provoke)... which is fairly minor, really, and maybe not entirely undesireable...
BlackFiend
10-20-04, 01:45 PM Tony...that was one confusing post, man. Hard to read and follow.
Ease up on the parentheses and throw in a few paragraphs.

Help me out...I have no idea what point you are really trying to get across.

Tarkin -
Your point is duly noted. Thats a basic rule of tripping and disarming...that the target has the chance to do it back. Not true with sunder however, which really helps me to boil down my strategy.

I'm trying to figure out my tactic against archers and such. They are a vulnerability for me. So if I spring attack the archer and sunder his bow, I am solid! No AoO, and no opposed attack roll since it (the defenders bow) is not a melee weapon.

So...Sunder the bow using the reach weapon, disarm the non-fighter types with weak bab, keep tripping fighter types , reducing thier full attack routines to efforts of frustration.
Joram
10-20-04, 02:04 PM I'm trying to figure out my tactic against archers and such. They are a vulnerability for me. So if I spring attack the archer and sunder his bow, I am solid! No AoO, and no opposed attack roll since it (the defenders bow) is not a melee weapon.

If you dont have imroved sunder you still provoke an AoO, but moving away from the defender doesn't.
FitzNighteyes
10-20-04, 02:18 PM If you dont have imroved sunder you still provoke an AoO, but moving away from the defender doesn't.Not against someone using a bow.
Joram
10-20-04, 02:24 PM Not against someone using a bow.
Shoot... You're right.
But are you sure you'll break a bow with one hit, even if you hit him?
BlackFiend
10-20-04, 02:40 PM You kidding me, a bow has a hardness of 5 and 5 hit points!

If I get my admantine scimitar on him for one good strike I'd smash it to bits, since admantine bypasses the hardness 5.

Heck...with the guisarme I get 2d4+2 damage, plus 1.5 str bonus (Str 24). Not even including all the nasty boosts I've got worked up...

And thats against what...
AC 10 + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character!

All I have to do is tempt him to come in closer for the point blank bonus...then BLAMMM! Whoooaaa!

He'll rue the day he came within 60' of the mad monk/dervish.
Tony Vargas
10-20-04, 03:28 PM Tony...that was one confusing post, man. Hard to read and follow.
Ease up on the parentheses and throw in a few paragraphs.
Heh. At least I avoided nested parentheticals...

Of course attempting to Sunder or Disarm with a reach weapon provokes an AoO - but, if you're not in the other guy's threatened area, he can't take it.

Some DMs will bend the rules and let you take the AoO against the weapon, though. If someone's poking at you with a ransuer, it's reasonable that you could try to hit it, so it's not an outlandish idea.

The problem with that, is that attacking a weapon would be a Disarm or Sunder, which also provoke an AoO. That AoO could just be used to disarm or sunder, and you're back where you started. So, really, all allowing AoOs vs reach weapons when you can't threaten the wielder does is give an advantage to the character who has the Improved Disarm or Sunder feat... which is fairly minor, really, and maybe not entirely undesireable.
Hypersmurf
10-20-04, 03:46 PM That AoO could just be used to disarm or sunder (and, you can't 'chain' AoOs...

You can if you have Combat Reflexes...

-Hyp.
Gnarl
10-20-04, 03:47 PM *drools*

Euh, this same post with paragraphs :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlackFiend 10-19-04, 05:43 PM	If you use a reach weapon to disarm or sunder, do these provoke attacks of opportunity? I would assume no, if you parallel this to trip attacks. If it does indeed provoke, as I believe it would...could they actually attack in the first place? Assume neither character have the feats Improved Sunder or Improved Disarm. For an example: A large size ice devil attempts to disarm a axewielding barbarian. The barbarian is 10' away from the ice devil. To resolve this the following occurs: Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. The Ice Devil provoke an attack of opportunity from the barbarian. However, the defender’s attack of opportunity is incapable of doing any damage since he has no reach! Can we assume the disarm attempt succeeds and we move on to steps 2 & 3 (opposed rolls & consequences?) since the defender is, in all instances, unable to deal damage? The only thing I can think of is that the Barbarian can attempt to use the AoO to in turn sunder or disarm the reach weapon? But since the barbarian doesn't have improved sunder or disarm, it would in turn, provoke an AoO from the Ice Devil! (My head is spinnning, world is twirling...please help!)
Hypersmurf 10-19-04, 06:01 PM	If you use a reach weapon to disarm or sunder, do these provoke attacks of opportunity? You provoke an Attack of Opportunity for taking certain actions in a threatened square. If you take the Disarm action, but you are not in a threatened square, no AoO is provoked. -Hyp.
Thorak 10-19-04, 07:36 PM	Hypersmurf is perfectly correct. The inevitable people who will insist they can somehow threaten your weapon are houseruling.
BlackFiend 10-20-04, 08:51 AM	So...using a reach weapon to sunder or disarm is as if you had the improved disarm or sunder, you just don't get the +4 associated bonus. Sweeeet.
Egres 10-20-04, 09:01 AM	So...using a reach weapon to sunder or disarm is as if you had the improved disarm or sunder, you just don't get the +4 associated bonus. Sweeeet. Try to Disarm an Ogre and you will find where the difference lies. ;)
BlackFiend 10-20-04, 09:03 AM	Achhhh...touche.
Zherog 10-20-04, 11:21 AM	Hypersmurf is perfectly correct. The inevitable people who will insist they can somehow threaten your weapon are houseruling. You can however, ready an action to attack the weapon when it comes within reach - not nearly the same thing, of course. This is one good thing about a whip. While you are unable to do damage, you can trip and/or disarm your opponents before they have a chance to close and threaten.
tarkin 10-20-04, 11:30 AM	Hypersmurf is correct, but left out an important piece of information. If you attempt to Sunder/disarm without the appropriate feats, you trigger an AoO against you, but only from people that are threatening you. If your opponent can not attack you, they are not threatening you, so they can not take an AoO against you. However, the person being attacked in this manner may still take NON-AoO attacks against you. When you Disarm, without the Improved Disarm feat (from the SRD Special Attacks section): If you fail on the disarm attempt, the defender may immediately react and attempt to disarm you with the same sort of opposed melee attack roll. His attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from you. If he fails his disarm attempt, you do not subsequently get a free disarm attempt against him. This is in addition to the AoO for disarming, and is itself NOT an AoO. As such, it happens even if you are not threatening them, so the victim of a Reach Disarm still gets to do it. If the Disarmer had the Improved Disarm attempt, it would have negated the "failed disarm revenge disarm"
Tony Vargas 10-20-04, 12:10 PM	If you use a reach weapon to disarm or sunder, do these provoke attacks of opportunity? Of course they do - but, if you're not in the other guy's threatened area, he can't take it. Some DMs will bend the rules and let you take the AoO against the weapon. (It makes sense: if someone's poking at you with a ransuer, you could try to hit it.) The problem with that, is that Disarm & Sunder (about the only things you can do to a weapon) also provoke AoOs... (Which also makes sense: if someone's poking at you with a ransuer and you stop trying to parry it, and instead swing at the haft, you could get poked) That AoO could just be used to disarm or sunder (and, you can't 'chain' AoOs, so that's where it ends), and you're right back were you started (but, really, with a greater chance of you being sans weapon when it's all resolved). So, really, all allowing AoOs vs weapons when you can't threaten the wielder does is give an advantage to the character who has the Improved Disarm or Sunder feat (since, attacker or AoO-taking defender, they don't provoke)... which is fairly minor, really, and maybe not entirely undesireable...
BlackFiend 10-20-04, 01:45 PM	Tony...that was one confusing post, man. Hard to read and follow. Ease up on the parentheses and throw in a few paragraphs. Help me out...I have no idea what point you are really trying to get across. Tarkin - Your point is duly noted. Thats a basic rule of tripping and disarming...that the target has the chance to do it back. Not true with sunder however, which really helps me to boil down my strategy. I'm trying to figure out my tactic against archers and such. They are a vulnerability for me. So if I spring attack the archer and sunder his bow, I am solid! No AoO, and no opposed attack roll since it (the defenders bow) is not a melee weapon. So...Sunder the bow using the reach weapon, disarm the non-fighter types with weak bab, keep tripping fighter types , reducing thier full attack routines to efforts of frustration.
Joram 10-20-04, 02:04 PM	I'm trying to figure out my tactic against archers and such. They are a vulnerability for me. So if I spring attack the archer and sunder his bow, I am solid! No AoO, and no opposed attack roll since it (the defenders bow) is not a melee weapon. If you dont have imroved sunder you still provoke an AoO, but moving away from the defender doesn't.
FitzNighteyes 10-20-04, 02:18 PM	If you dont have imroved sunder you still provoke an AoO, but moving away from the defender doesn't.Not against someone using a bow.
Joram 10-20-04, 02:24 PM	Not against someone using a bow. Shoot... You're right. But are you sure you'll break a bow with one hit, even if you hit him?
BlackFiend 10-20-04, 02:40 PM	You kidding me, a bow has a hardness of 5 and 5 hit points! If I get my admantine scimitar on him for one good strike I'd smash it to bits, since admantine bypasses the hardness 5. Heck...with the guisarme I get 2d4+2 damage, plus 1.5 str bonus (Str 24). Not even including all the nasty boosts I've got worked up... And thats against what... AC 10 + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character! All I have to do is tempt him to come in closer for the point blank bonus...then BLAMMM! Whoooaaa! He'll rue the day he came within 60' of the mad monk/dervish.
Tony Vargas 10-20-04, 03:28 PM	Tony...that was one confusing post, man. Hard to read and follow. Ease up on the parentheses and throw in a few paragraphs. Heh. At least I avoided nested parentheticals... Of course attempting to Sunder or Disarm with a reach weapon provokes an AoO - but, if you're not in the other guy's threatened area, he can't take it. Some DMs will bend the rules and let you take the AoO against the weapon, though. If someone's poking at you with a ransuer, it's reasonable that you could try to hit it, so it's not an outlandish idea. The problem with that, is that attacking a weapon would be a Disarm or Sunder, which also provoke an AoO. That AoO could just be used to disarm or sunder, and you're back where you started. So, really, all allowing AoOs vs reach weapons when you can't threaten the wielder does is give an advantage to the character who has the Improved Disarm or Sunder feat... which is fairly minor, really, and maybe not entirely undesireable.
Hypersmurf 10-20-04, 03:46 PM	That AoO could just be used to disarm or sunder (and, you can't 'chain' AoOs... You can if you have Combat Reflexes... -Hyp.
Gnarl 10-20-04, 03:47 PM	drools Euh, this same post with paragraphs :)