Disarming while grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Disarming while grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarknessEternal
10-15-06, 02:23 PM If you are grappling an opponent and you try to disarm your opponent who is wielding an one-handed or two-handed weapon, does he even get to oppose you?

Since disarming is specifically an opposed attack roll, we have to assume that all modifiers for attack rolls would apply. Such modifiers in this condition would be you take a -4 for light weapons and that it is impossible with a one-handed or two-handed weapon.

Clearly, even were it possible to defend himself, there would have to be some sort of penalty. It shouldn't be easier for the grapplee to defend the disarm with a weapon he isn't even supposed to be able to use as compared to a light weapon, which definately has a penalty in a grapple.
Dheran
10-15-06, 03:01 PM If you are grappling an opponent and you try to disarm your opponent who is wielding an one-handed or two-handed weapon, does he even get to oppose you? You don't get to disarm your opponent in a simple grapple; that's not on the list of allowed actions. To be able to disarm someone you have to improve your grapple position to where you have your opponent pinned.If You’re Pinning an Opponent
You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt. A weapon being wielded counts as "well secured".
Vegepygmy
10-15-06, 03:24 PM A weapon being wielded counts as "well secured".It most certainly does not. Both the disarming and grappling rules make it quite clear that "well secured" items are things like rings and bracers that are not only worn, but difficult to remove. Calling an item that is simply being held in one's hand "well secured" strips the term of any useful meaning.

The grapple rules simply don't address the issue of disarming an opponent of an item that isn't well secured, except to say that you do not gain possession of an opponent's own light weapon when you use it to attack him. My ad hoc ruling on the matter would be that you can disarm a pinned opponent of a weapon in the same way you can remove a well secured item, except that the opponent would not gain a +4 bonus on his roll to resist.

But officially, it does not appear that you can do so at all.
Dheran
10-15-06, 04:45 PM A weapon being wielded counts as "well secured".
It most certainly does not. We'll have to disagree here. I think that the person holding onto a weapon with which they're defending their life is going to resist having it grabbed away from them with all their strength. A ring (which you consider "well secured") can be pulled off with a simple Sleight of Hand skill use, but a wielded weapon can't.
mvincent
10-15-06, 05:54 PM We'll have to disagree here.Vegepygmy appears to be correct. A regular disarm can be used in place of a melee attack, even in a grapple (i.e. the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm) say "As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent")

Trying to disarm a well secured item cannot be done with a regular disarm, but can be done if the opponent is pinned. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm):
"You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt. "
Dheran
10-15-06, 07:08 PM Vegepygmy appears to be correct. A regular disarm can be used in place of a melee attack, even in a grapple Sorry, not even in a grapple. A melee attack isn't one of the things you can do in a grapple. Here's the complete list:If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action).

Activate a Magic Item
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling.
Cast a Spell
Damage Your Opponent
Draw a Light Weapon
Escape from Grapple
Move
Retrieve a Spell Component
Pin Your Opponent
Break Another’s Pin
Use Opponent’s Weapon
mvincent
10-15-06, 08:05 PM Sorry, not even in a grapple. A melee attack isn't one of the things you can do in a grapple. Ok, Mr. Wrongy McIncorrectstein, I tried to use polite phrasing in my initial post but you evidently still aren't getting it.

1st: you were clearly incorrect about weapons being considered secure items (I'm assuming that you realized that and decided not to mention it again, but let me know if you need more details).

2nd: Per the 3.5 FAQ "you can disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or attack of opportunity)". The "Attack Your Opponent" option counts as a melee attack that can be replaced with one of these special attack options.
ShinAkuma2
10-15-06, 08:22 PM A melee attack isn't one of the things you can do in a grapple.
...
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions.
Attack Your Opponent

Did you read that list before posting it? You've contradicted yourself.

So long as you're using an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or a light weapon, you can make a melee attack that can be resolved as a disarm. You'll take a -4 for attacking while grappled, plus a -4 for disarming with a light weapon. Your opponent's opposed attack will also have a the -4 for grappling (so you could leave it out on both sides if you wanted to avoid a little math), plus the appropriate modifier for the size of his weapon.
DarknessEternal
10-15-06, 11:07 PM Your opponent's opposed attack will also have a the -4 for grappling (so you could leave it out on both sides if you wanted to avoid a little math), plus the appropriate modifier for the size of his weapon.
So, after all this, we're only back to my original question.

Since you can't attack with a one-handed or two-handed weapon in a grapple, are you allowed to resist a disarm while being grappled?

Someone being grappled and having a light weapon would take a -4 penalty on his opposed attack roll, since that's the modifier for attacking in a grapple. (this is in addition to the -4 he gets for opposing a disarm with a light weapon).

Since it's an opposed attack roll, why would someone with a one-handed or two-handed weapon even get to make one?
mvincent
10-15-06, 11:19 PM Since you can't attack with a one-handed or two-handed weapon in a grapple, are you allowed to resist a disarm while being grappled?Yes

Since it's an opposed attack roll, why would someone with a one-handed or two-handed weapon even get to make one?An opposed attack roll is actually different from an attack (i.e. no critical hits or automatic misses, does not require an action, etc.).
ShinAkuma2
10-15-06, 11:45 PM Since it's an opposed attack roll, why would someone with a one-handed or two-handed weapon even get to make one?

The same reason you can make an opposed attack roll with a bow, a potion, or a scroll: You have to have some chance of resisting.

I could see an additional -4 tacked on due to the inability to properly weild the weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarknessEternal 10-15-06, 02:23 PM	If you are grappling an opponent and you try to disarm your opponent who is wielding an one-handed or two-handed weapon, does he even get to oppose you? Since disarming is specifically an opposed attack roll, we have to assume that all modifiers for attack rolls would apply. Such modifiers in this condition would be you take a -4 for light weapons and that it is impossible with a one-handed or two-handed weapon. Clearly, even were it possible to defend himself, there would have to be some sort of penalty. It shouldn't be easier for the grapplee to defend the disarm with a weapon he isn't even supposed to be able to use as compared to a light weapon, which definately has a penalty in a grapple.
Dheran 10-15-06, 03:01 PM	If you are grappling an opponent and you try to disarm your opponent who is wielding an one-handed or two-handed weapon, does he even get to oppose you? You don't get to disarm your opponent in a simple grapple; that's not on the list of allowed actions. To be able to disarm someone you have to improve your grapple position to where you have your opponent pinned.If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt. A weapon being wielded counts as "well secured".
Vegepygmy 10-15-06, 03:24 PM	A weapon being wielded counts as "well secured".It most certainly does not. Both the disarming and grappling rules make it quite clear that "well secured" items are things like rings and bracers that are not only worn, but difficult to remove. Calling an item that is simply being held in one's hand "well secured" strips the term of any useful meaning. The grapple rules simply don't address the issue of disarming an opponent of an item that isn't well secured, except to say that you do not gain possession of an opponent's own light weapon when you use it to attack him. My ad hoc ruling on the matter would be that you can disarm a pinned opponent of a weapon in the same way you can remove a well secured item, except that the opponent would not gain a +4 bonus on his roll to resist. But officially, it does not appear that you can do so at all.
Dheran 10-15-06, 04:45 PM	A weapon being wielded counts as "well secured". It most certainly does not. We'll have to disagree here. I think that the person holding onto a weapon with which they're defending their life is going to resist having it grabbed away from them with all their strength. A ring (which you consider "well secured") can be pulled off with a simple Sleight of Hand skill use, but a wielded weapon can't.
mvincent 10-15-06, 05:54 PM	We'll have to disagree here.Vegepygmy appears to be correct. A regular disarm can be used in place of a melee attack, even in a grapple (i.e. the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm) say "As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent") Trying to disarm a well secured item cannot be done with a regular disarm, but can be done if the opponent is pinned. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm): "You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt. "
Dheran 10-15-06, 07:08 PM	Vegepygmy appears to be correct. A regular disarm can be used in place of a melee attack, even in a grapple Sorry, not even in a grapple. A melee attack isn't one of the things you can do in a grapple. Here's the complete list:If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). Activate a Magic Item Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. Cast a Spell Damage Your Opponent Draw a Light Weapon Escape from Grapple Move Retrieve a Spell Component Pin Your Opponent Break Another’s Pin Use Opponent’s Weapon
mvincent 10-15-06, 08:05 PM	Sorry, not even in a grapple. A melee attack isn't one of the things you can do in a grapple. Ok, Mr. Wrongy McIncorrectstein, I tried to use polite phrasing in my initial post but you evidently still aren't getting it. 1st: you were clearly incorrect about weapons being considered secure items (I'm assuming that you realized that and decided not to mention it again, but let me know if you need more details). 2nd: Per the 3.5 FAQ "you can disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or attack of opportunity)". The "Attack Your Opponent" option counts as a melee attack that can be replaced with one of these special attack options.
ShinAkuma2 10-15-06, 08:22 PM	A melee attack isn't one of the things you can do in a grapple. ... When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Attack Your Opponent Did you read that list before posting it? You've contradicted yourself. So long as you're using an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or a light weapon, you can make a melee attack that can be resolved as a disarm. You'll take a -4 for attacking while grappled, plus a -4 for disarming with a light weapon. Your opponent's opposed attack will also have a the -4 for grappling (so you could leave it out on both sides if you wanted to avoid a little math), plus the appropriate modifier for the size of his weapon.
DarknessEternal 10-15-06, 11:07 PM	Your opponent's opposed attack will also have a the -4 for grappling (so you could leave it out on both sides if you wanted to avoid a little math), plus the appropriate modifier for the size of his weapon. So, after all this, we're only back to my original question. Since you can't attack with a one-handed or two-handed weapon in a grapple, are you allowed to resist a disarm while being grappled? Someone being grappled and having a light weapon would take a -4 penalty on his opposed attack roll, since that's the modifier for attacking in a grapple. (this is in addition to the -4 he gets for opposing a disarm with a light weapon). Since it's an opposed attack roll, why would someone with a one-handed or two-handed weapon even get to make one?
mvincent 10-15-06, 11:19 PM	Since you can't attack with a one-handed or two-handed weapon in a grapple, are you allowed to resist a disarm while being grappled?Yes Since it's an opposed attack roll, why would someone with a one-handed or two-handed weapon even get to make one?An opposed attack roll is actually different from an attack (i.e. no critical hits or automatic misses, does not require an action, etc.).
ShinAkuma2 10-15-06, 11:45 PM	Since it's an opposed attack roll, why would someone with a one-handed or two-handed weapon even get to make one? The same reason you can make an opposed attack roll with a bow, a potion, or a scroll: You have to have some chance of resisting. I could see an additional -4 tacked on due to the inability to properly weild the weapon.