Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 08-18-07, 10:03 PM	Contrary to what many might believe after watching Elektra (a terrible movie I had to watch because JG is hot), the primary purpose for using a sai is the defensive ability to disarm (especially a sword) your opponent. Why in D&D is it better to disarm using a quarterstaff? Being a 2-handed weapon, the quarterstaff adds +4 to disarm attempts. The sai has a +4 bonus to disarm, but it also suffers a -4 penalty for being a light weapon (effectively +0). This logic seems broken to me. The only reason anyone should want to use the sai is for disarming. But if another weapon does it better, the sai is completely useless. Am I misunderstanding the rules? Does the +4 to disarm bonus for the sai mean that it ignores the -4 for being light? Even if it did, I think the sai should have a better bonus than any other weapon for disarming. Afterall, it does little damage.
Propane 08-18-07, 11:26 PM	Pray for it to be more ligical in 4e.
Longarms 08-19-07, 03:20 AM	Granted it is an extremely small niche, but I believe there is a home for the sai as the best off hand disarming weapon. Its such a small niche as to possibly never be used, but it is there, I suppose.:cool:
Orenmir 08-19-07, 12:48 PM	Granted it is an extremely small niche, but I believe there is a home for the sai as the best off hand disarming weapon. Its such a small niche as to possibly never be used, but it is there, I suppose.:cool: I thought of that; and that it can be used in a grapple. But still, it should have a much higher disarm bonus in regular melee combat. Maybe a houserule: +8 to disarm (effectively +4), to at least make it equal that of a quarterstaff.
Watchman 08-19-07, 01:36 PM	You're going to have a wee bit of a hard time explaining where it actually gets enough leverage to equal a long stick held in two hands though. Which said, yeah, the disarm rules could do with some reviewing. :embarrass
BlackHalfDragon 08-19-07, 02:42 PM	Am I misunderstanding the rules? Does the +4 to disarm bonus for the sai mean that it ignores the -4 for being light? Even if it did, I think the sai should have a better bonus than any other weapon for disarming. Afterall, it does little damage. raw = +0 sense = +4
Tyler Do'Urden 08-19-07, 03:42 PM	Well obviously, the solution is to use a Large sai in two hands. +4 from the sai, +4 for two-handed weapon, -2 for wrong size category = +6 to disarm.
sensestaker 08-19-07, 05:40 PM	You're going to have a wee bit of a hard time explaining where it actually gets enough leverage to equal a long stick held in two hands though. Leverage is only part of the issue. Design is equally, if not more important. A quarterstaff is a smooth piece of wood-the only way you could disarm someone with it would be to bludgeon the weapon out of their hand. A sai, on the other hand, is designed with disarming in mind-you trap the opponants weapon between its tines and twist it away. The twisting would actually increase the effective leverage of the sai. I'd rule it gets a +8 bonus to disaming, giving it a +4 after the size penalty.
Khadmus 08-19-07, 05:42 PM	Well obviously, the solution is to use a Large sai in two hands. +4 from the sai, +4 for two-handed weapon, -2 for wrong size category = +6 to disarm. Just use a spiked chain or heavy flail then. +4 two-handed, +2 weapon,
Watchman 08-19-07, 06:17 PM	Leverage is only part of the issue. Design is equally, if not more important. A quarterstaff is a smooth piece of wood-the only way you could disarm someone with it would be to bludgeon the weapon out of their hand. A sai, on the other hand, is designed with disarming in mind-you trap the opponants weapon between its tines and twist it away. The twisting would actually increase the effective leverage of the sai. I'd rule it gets a +8 bonus to disaming, giving it a +4 after the size penalty.The ultimate point of the exercise, however, is to force the opponent's joints to try to twist in a way they're not designed to if he were to maintain a hold on his weapon. So far as I know achieving this is primarily a question of cunningly applied leverage; while a "forked" device that allows trapping the weapon between two lever points is certainly useful, just properly pushing the other guy's weapon in the direction you want with yours works right well too - and since that requires overcoming the other guy's arm strenght to at least some degree, the reach and two-handed leverage of staves and similar long weapons obviously have their uses here especially if he catches on to what you're trying to do fast enough and starts resisting. (It doesn't hurt that they allow you to try it from a relatively safe distance, and are more difficult to wrench from your grasp in return if things don't go as planned.)
sensestaker 08-19-07, 06:45 PM	I agree with you that the size of and strength that you can put behind a quarterstaff can be a significant advantage, but I believe that advantage is matched by the design of the sai. You yourself said it The ultimate point of the exercise, however, is to force the opponent's joints to try to twist in a way they're not designed to if he were to maintain a hold on his weapon. So far as I know achieving this is primarily a question of cunningly applied leverage Try using a staff to cunningly apply leverage. :rolleyes: This is easily tried first hand. Give your friend a stick. Try to knock the stick out of their hand with another (straight) stick. Then try to wrest it free with a forked stick. Skillful technique should easily match brute strength. There's a reason that one is a simple weapon and one is an exotic weapon.
Watchman 08-19-07, 08:56 PM	Try using a staff to cunningly apply leverage.:rolleyes: You'd be surprised at the extent to which staves can be used as levers to twist people in ways Momma Nature didn't mean them to, methinks. This is easily tried first hand. Give your friend a stick. Try to knock the stick out of their hand with another (straight) stick. Then try to wrest it free with a forked stick. Skillful technique should easily match brute strength.You don't knock it (although AFAIK it's possible to smack an item off someone's hands like that, you'd probably be better off just hitting the hand instead... and in this sort of thing staff wins sai hands down anyway); you twist it. If you can push the weapon around in a kind of circular arc, you can maneuver the other guy to a posture where his joints lock up and he'll be forced to let go. Of course you need to know what you're doing, and pull it off before he can react effectively (assuming he knows how of course). More difficult to do if he's holding with both hands of course, since there's two set of joints literally mirrored - something that screws up one set may not have too much effect on the other, and it doesn't do that much good if you can only force one of his hands off the weapon. Mind you, this problem persists regardless of what you're doing the twisting with. Nonetheless, you're essentially pulling a joint lock technique on the other guy. And joint locks like levers. In this case you're specifically seeking to use his weapon as a lever against his wrist if I'm not mistaken, and so long as you can use your weapon to manipulate his appropriately it matters not one whit what exactly you're using; outside structural differences the fundamental principles are the same whether you're using a sword, staff or knife. Methinks you're slightly misreading the tactical function of tined short weapons such as jittes, sai and assorted parrying daggers though. They're not really so much for disarming the other guy (although it's a bonus if you can pull that off, naturally) as for binding his weapon so you can do something nasty to him in the meantime. Why do you think these things are so commonly paired up with either another weapon of the same type or some other ? You bind the enemy's weapon, largely paralyzing him for a moment, and finish him off with the other weapon (or punch him in the face and grapple him into submission, or whatever). The somewhat elaborate basket hilts of rapiers could be used to the same effect AFAIK, as well as some types of shield bosses (like the peculiar old Anglo-Saxon "cone and disk" design). Anyway, I do agree that the current disarming rules are more than a little questionable. IMO the size-based modifier doesn't really make sense and should be dropped entirely; two-handers still ought to get some sort of inherent bonus due to their superior leverage though. Ideally this should be equal to the bonus specialist "disarming" weapons get, so that a specialist one-hander would be the equal of a non-specialist two-hander, with the rare specialist two-hander (something similar to a trident in shape presumably, although a lot of polearms have something sticking out at right angles that ought to also be useful for this sort of thing) naturally being the king. I don't incidentally really understand why the fig sai would be an Exotic weapon. It's a damn sharp metal rod with a handle (à la icepick or long dagger) you stab people with ferchrissakes; the tines that make it useful for twisting things out of peoples' hands shouldn't really alter this fact one bit. Martial prof, Light, dagger damage stats, not throwable, and whatever the standard disarm bonus now was sounds IMHO like a decent enough stat line.
jaelis 08-19-07, 10:15 PM	I don't incidentally really understand why the fig sai would be an Exotic weapon. It's a damn sharp metal rod with a handle (à la icepick or long dagger) you stab people with ferchrissakes; the tines that make it useful for twisting things out of peoples' hands shouldn't really alter this fact one bit. Martial prof, Light, dagger damage stats, not throwable, and whatever the standard disarm bonus now was sounds IMHO like a decent enough stat line. Statistically, none of the monk weapons are worth being exotics. I think that the idea is that they are exotic just because they are unusual. (For instance, there's no difference between a kama and a sickle.)
dknight100 08-19-07, 11:41 PM	I think its a combination of not being "usual" and that they are infact, monk weapons, capable of being flurried with. I'm not saying i like that thats why they're exotic, just thats the key difference between a kama and a sickle, one can be flurried. Suffice to say, I'm not a fan of class conditional modifiers on a weapon, especially not for making them exotic, which is a status that for most weapons, just isn't worth it. The exotics really worth taking (from core): Urgosh, Gnomish Hooked Hammer, Spiked Chain. The double weapons in general are almost worth it, but really i would only spend a feat for the double weapons that provide multiple types of damage, for which the Urgosh and the GHH are really nice - multiple types of damage, and special abilities (set against charge with the spear of an urgosh, trip with a hooked hammer)
Holy_Beholder 08-20-07, 12:47 PM	You'd be surprised at the extent to which staves can be used as levers to twist people in ways Momma Nature didn't mean them to, methinks. You don't knock it (although AFAIK it's possible to smack an item off someone's hands like that, you'd probably be better off just hitting the hand instead... and in this sort of thing staff wins sai hands down anyway); you twist it. If you can push the weapon around in a kind of circular arc, you can maneuver the other guy to a posture where his joints lock up and he'll be forced to let go. Of course you need to know what you're doing, and pull it off before he can react effectively (assuming he knows how of course). I can attest to that, I have done that. I used a spear against a two handed axe, stuck it under the curve, and sent it flying around 15 feet after the second twist circle. On a sword it is much more difficult, although hand whacking works well(or you know stabbing them from out of range) although if it has a basket hilt you might be able to pull it off. I have done that it works.
wonlee76 08-20-07, 02:07 PM	I'm probably the only one who believes the Sai is fine as is. Its the best flurryable light disarm weapon in the game (though this doesn't mean it should be exotic but meh... monks have exotic weapon proficiencies "just because" WOTC says so). Of course a monk could use a Quarterstaff two handed but if its a dex based monk with low strength (ie. +5 or higher difference between Dex and Str), the sai is the better choice. The other benefit of Sai is its metal so you can have it made out of cold iron, adamantite or alchemical silver (of if you really want to let loose, Shadowstriking weapon enhancement) for DR purposes while a quarterstaff doesn't get that minor benefit. Nothing like carrying around a +5 Collision Shadowstriking Sai for disarming and/or to deal with pesky DR that my unarmed strikes can get pass.
Orenmir 08-20-07, 04:18 PM	Its the best flurryable light disarm weapon in the game. You finally hit home. I'm trying to build a grappling monk, and improved disarm seems like the logical choice at 6th level. Although I can see the quarterstaff as a better flurryable (is that a word?) and disarming weapon, the sai is the best grappable (since we're making up words) and disarming weapon. I'll probably wind up using both. I'd use the quarterstaff to disarm my opponent of a light weapon before a grapple. And, I'd use the sai to disarm one- and two- handed weapons during a grapple. That being said, I don't see myself using the sai much because my opponent can't even use a one- or two- handed weapon during a grapple. Any flaws in my strategy?