Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Enaloindir 01-04-05, 03:09 AM	Hello all, While browsing through the SRD, I noticed a weird discrepancy between the different energy types: fire, cold, acid, electricity and sonic. I fully agree that sonic is by far the most powerful energy type, simply because not a lot of monsters have sonic resistance while plenty of the MM monsters are resistant to one of the other energy types. This view is further supported by viewing the various orb spells from CA, the sonic orb does less damage when compared to the others (1d6 for sonic vs 1d8 for the other energy types). When you look at the epic SRD however (the epic weapon enhancements), Sonic Blast does exactly the same amount of damage as the other types (Acidic Blast, Lightning Blast,...) for exactly the same price. Furthermore, the Energy Substitution metamagic feat allows the switching of spells to deal sonic damage, again without a decrease in damage. Now, my question: what would you do? Alter the Energy Substitution feat and all sonic weapon properties to deal less damage (decrease the damage die size) Change the Orb spells so that all types deal the same amount of damage I'm leaning towards #1 myself, but I'd like the opinion of some fellow gamers/DMs :) Thanks for your input, Enaloindir
Shadow Blade 01-04-05, 06:02 AM	Furthermore, the Energy Substitution metamagic feat allows the switching of spells to deal sonic damage, again without a decrease in damage. In 3,5 the Energy Substitution metamagic feat doesn't allow you to choose sonic damage, only fire, cold, acid and electricity.
Enaloindir 01-04-05, 06:24 AM	according to the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/DivineAbilitiesandFeats.rtf), it does :confused: ENERGY SUBSTITUTION [METAMAGIC] Prerequisites: Any other metamagic feat, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks. Benefit: You choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. When employing a spell with the acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic designator, you can modify the spell to use your chosen type of energy instead. The altered spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level. The altered spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time the feat applies to a different type of energy.
Selvan 01-04-05, 07:42 AM	It's true that not many monsters have ways to bypass sonic-damage. NPCs however could just cast the 2nd lvl spell silence and be practically immune to any sonic-based damage. Is there any equivalent spell for the other energy-types? AFAIK - No.
digoraccoon 01-04-05, 08:36 AM	I was having a conversation similar to this with two of my players the other day. For our rules, Sonic damage is the concussive energy force of a medium hitting you (like fast moving air molecules). Sound is basically the vibration of a medium reaching your ears. We were debating if a Silence spell will protect you. So far our agreement is no, which means getting hit with sonic damage in a silent area simply means you don't hear it coming. :o It's okay, we also ruled that energy protection should also cover Sonic energy as a choice, so there's balance that way. :)
Enaloindir 01-04-05, 08:45 AM	Both protection from energy and resist energy offer sonic as one of their choices, so your house rule is 100% official. The fact that a silence spell protects against sonic attacks makes sense, but I can also see points against it... Most sonic attacks require the target to actually hear the sound to be affected. When looking at sound burst, the spell deals its damage even if the target is deaf. This means that sonic damage does not require the subject to hear the sound itself, supporting digoraccoon's rule that a silence spell does not interfere with sonic damage... Enaloindir
Egres 01-04-05, 09:00 AM	according to the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/DivineAbilitiesandFeats.rtf), it does :confused: Don't mind the SRD. The Complete Arcane presents the new version of the feat, and, as Shadow Blade said before, you can't now choose "Sonic".
tarkin 01-04-05, 12:47 PM	And any sonic effect that has a savingthrow is pretty much useless against a bard. (Assuming he has a decent Perform checks...) And most sonic weapon enchantments attract a lot of attention.... In truth, the weapon Enchantment I find the best is Frost. It is least likely for the DM to screw with you if you carry the blade out ready to use all the time. Flaming/Shock - DM: They see you a mile away Sonic- DM: They hear you a mile away. Acid- DM: you leave a trail stained scorch marks on the floor. Frost- DM: You want your heavy jacket.
Craith 01-04-05, 01:16 PM	In the description of Silence in the PHB are examples against what it protects. One of those things is the Horn of Blasting, which does 5d6 sonic damage normally. So I'd rule that Silence would protect against all sonic based damage Craith
Avalongod 01-04-05, 01:20 PM	I was having a conversation similar to this with two of my players the other day. For our rules, Sonic damage is the concussive energy force of a medium hitting you (like fast moving air molecules). Sound is basically the vibration of a medium reaching your ears. We were debating if a Silence spell will protect you. So far our agreement is no, which means getting hit with sonic damage in a silent area simply means you don't hear it coming. :o It's okay, we also ruled that energy protection should also cover Sonic energy as a choice, so there's balance that way. :) that makes no sense at all. :noway: All sound is essentially waves in air or other medium. Yes concussions are extremely violent and sudden waves, but they are nontheless waves, the same waves that produce all forms of sound. A spell which eliminated one, would eliminate all such waves, no matter amplitude or frequency, unless the spell descriptor specified (such as endur elements does).
Vorel-Aurixsveargith 01-04-05, 01:43 PM	Our DMs view is that a sonic weapon doesn't do the damage from bursting your ear drums (which is pretty damaging, but once they burst, they burst) unless it says it deafens you. Our view is silence stops sound from moving through the air, but not other substances. What the weapon is actually doing is setting up a harmonic resonance in your body and those vibrations are what is doing the damage. (Most things don't do well having their bodies trying to fly apart) Basically, if you were to strike the weapon on a creature in an area of silence it would feel but not hear the effect. Silence stops the vibrations of the air, not everything else. Your actualy mileage may vary.
mvincent 01-04-05, 02:08 PM	according to the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/DivineAbilitiesandFeats.rtf), it does :confused:Energy substitution is listed in the divine feats section, which seems to be intended for Deities only, i.e. "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats." If you are using them for normal PC's, be aware that they could be overpowering (or at least a bit out of date, being a carryover from 3.0). Also note: in 3.5 the Miniatures Handbook contains a feat (Elemental Substitution?) that seems intended to be a replacement for Energy substitution. It's similar, but doesn't allow sonic damage.
Obi-Wan Shinobi 01-04-05, 02:54 PM	dont forget that sonic damage also does FULL damage versus inanimate objects. cant open that chest?? blast it with sonic orb. acid damage is also full. electricity and fire are at half damage and cold at one quarter.
Enaloindir 01-05-05, 01:49 AM	Energy substitution is listed in the divine feats section, which seems to be intended for Deities only, i.e. "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats." If you are using them for normal PC's, be aware that they could be overpowering (or at least a bit out of date, being a carryover from 3.0). Also note: in 3.5 the Miniatures Handbook contains a feat (Elemental Substitution?) that seems intended to be a replacement for Energy substitution. It's similar, but doesn't allow sonic damage. I thought the general feats in the divine section could be added to "normal" general feats, seeing that most of them also appear in other books (Sharp-shooting, Power Critical, Superior Expertise, Hold the Line,...). Since I only added Energy Substitution from that part of the SRD, it won't be much touble to just replace it with Elemental Substitution. I don't have the Miniatures Handbook, so I didn't know that Energy Substitution was "replaced" by Elemental Substitution. Perhaps I'll allow Elemental Substitution to create sonic spells, but with a loss in damage (so a sonic substituted fireball would do 1d4/lvl damage) Enaloindir
Enaloindir 01-05-05, 01:51 AM	In truth, the weapon Enchantment I find the best is Frost. It is least likely for the DM to screw with you if you carry the blade out ready to use all the time. Flaming/Shock - DM: They see you a mile away Sonic- DM: They hear you a mile away. Acid- DM: you leave a trail stained scorch marks on the floor. Frost- DM: You want your heavy jacket. Speaking of this: Do the rulebooks specify anywhere just what the sensory effects of these enhancements are? It's perfectly possible for a flaming weapon to emit no light, etc. How do you rule this in your games? Enaloindir
Loren Pechtel 01-06-05, 02:01 AM	that makes no sense at all. :noway: All sound is essentially waves in air or other medium. Yes concussions are extremely violent and sudden waves, but they are nontheless waves, the same waves that produce all forms of sound. A spell which eliminated one, would eliminate all such waves, no matter amplitude or frequency, unless the spell descriptor specified (such as endur elements does). I'm not sure on this. Many years ago I was pretty close to the launch point of a big fireworks display. (Well within what would be permitted in the US.) I clearly felt each shell going up but it was amazing how quiet the launches were. The shells bursting overhead were *MUCH* louder than the launches less than 100 feet from us, yet I felt an obvious thump (through the air--it was notable on my chest) from each launch and nothing from the bursts.
Gilean 01-06-05, 02:42 AM	D&D uses different rules from our world. Sonic effects aren't necessarily waves in the air. And if they are, would silence not block other wave motion too?
Obi-Wan Shinobi 01-06-05, 10:10 AM	Many years ago I was pretty close to the launch point of a big fireworks display. (Well within what would be permitted in the US.) I clearly felt each shell going up but it was amazing how quiet the launches were. The shells bursting overhead were *MUCH* louder than the launches less than 100 feet from us, yet I felt an obvious thump (through the air--it was notable on my chest) from each launch and nothing from the bursts. one reason you might not have heard the shells launch, but felt them is becasue not all sound can be HEARD. i can rememeber the exact point, but below 50 Hz, the ears of a human are unable to actually hear the sound, but it can be fealt within the body. stand next to a vehicle with a very high end stereo system and watch the subs kicking. you might not hear every note, but i bet you feal every one :)there used to be a cd you could purchase to test your stereo system, mostly used by those that would build systems for sound-offs. on this cd you could test really low and really high speaker responses, both out of the audial range of human hearing.
Zilvar 01-06-05, 11:15 AM	Basically, if you were to strike the weapon on a creature in an area of silence it would feel but not hear the effect. Silence stops the vibrations of the air, not everything else. Your actualy mileage may vary. Given that I feel that Silence is one of the most poorly written spells in the book, I'd have to say I like the idea. In theory, at least.
Keenath 01-06-05, 11:47 AM	one reason you might not have heard the shells launch, but felt them is becasue not all sound can be HEARD. i can rememeber the exact point, but below 50 Hz, the ears of a human are unable to actually hear the sound, but it can be fealt within the body. Well, then what's to keep the DM from declaring that the Silence spell only blanks out sounds within the range of human hearing? Sonic spells that are not specifically sound-based might still deal damage and be unblocked. Regardless, I've always thought Sonic was a bizarre energy type, and should be combined with Force to make a single type of energy.
Avalongod 01-06-05, 12:20 PM	i can rememeber the exact point, but below 50 Hz, the ears of a human are unable to actually hear the sound, but it can be fealt within the body. The lower limit is usually set around 20 Hz, although not all people may be able to hear sounds that low. You also wouldn't "feel" the sound in your body unless the decibels were pretty high.
Loren Pechtel 01-07-05, 12:57 AM	one reason you might not have heard the shells launch, but felt them is becasue not all sound can be HEARD. i can rememeber the exact point, but below 50 Hz, the ears of a human are unable to actually hear the sound, but it can be fealt within the body. But I felt them as a single thump to the chest. (The area most exposed to the energy and besides they were launching from a concrete slab that would have deflected most of the energy that would have hit my legs as it was about 3' above the ground.) It wasn't like a sound at all, it was a single pressure wave. What's the frequency of a pressure wave???? There's no repeat and therefore no frequency.
Avalongod 01-07-05, 01:05 AM	But I felt them as a single thump to the chest. (The area most exposed to the energy and besides they were launching from a concrete slab that would have deflected most of the energy that would have hit my legs as it was about 3' above the ground.) It wasn't like a sound at all, it was a single pressure wave. What's the frequency of a pressure wave???? There's no repeat and therefore no frequency. Sound has both frequency (measure in Hertz) and amplitude (measured in decibels). To speak in a simplified manner, the frequency (Hz.) determines the tone of the sound you hear (or don't hear if it is outside human limits), whereas decibels determines loudness. It is possible for a sound to either have a very high frequency (above 20,000Hz) or very low frequency (below 20 Hz) that would be entirely inaudible to human ears but still have very high decibels (say above 120). A sound who's frequency is outside of the range of human hearing, but still has high decibels could conceivably be "felt" as a pressure wave or a physical vibration, even though your ears don't hear anything. All forms of sound energy have a frequency (this is in essence the size of the sound wave), no matter the duration of the sound or "pressure wave" as you describe it.
Elendur 01-07-05, 01:22 AM	From the SRD: This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.Seems pretty clear cut that silence negates sonic spells. I never understood how acid was a type of energy.
Vorel-Aurixsveargith 01-07-05, 01:37 AM	D&D uses different rules from our world. Sonic effects aren't necessarily waves in the air. And if they are, would silence not block other wave motion too? Remember, there are 2 kinds of waves, Longitudinal Waves and Transverse waves. Light and other forms of electromagnetic energy (x-rays, gamma-rays, etc) are forms of transverse waves. Sound is a Longitudinal wave. Grab a slinky, give one end to a friend and hold the other, if you push your end towards your friend and watch the pulse move down the line you have made a longitudinal wave, like sound. Now wave the slinky up and down or back and forth. That's a transverse wave. Silence says it stops all sound and sonic attacks in the area. So Silence seems to stop all longitudinal waves, since what we can percieve as sound is different from what other creatures might. Interestingly the spell is amazingly powerful. If you cast Silence on yourself you become immune to some of the most powerful spells, such as Wail of the Banshee and Blasphemy. Not only protect yourself, but protect those within 20 ft of you! Near as I can tell, unless you try to center it on someone or something, there are no saving throws for it either, or spell resistance. Which means unless something has silent spell, it ain't gonna be casting jack. Get this spell and silence a really powerful spell and you just tipped the balance of power in your favor! Most critters don't have the silent spell feat. A wizard and cleric with silent spell and a Bard casting silence...damn...Spell casters become just this side of useless against you!
Vorel-Aurixsveargith 01-07-05, 01:45 AM	Seems pretty clear cut that silence negates sonic spells. I never understood how acid was a type of energy. It seems they are trying to do the 4 Elements (Fire Water Earth Air)...unfortuneatly it winds up being really screwy. Fire = Fire Cold = Water? (Even though there is no such thing as cold, only lack of heat) Acid = Earth Electricity = Air? (This doesn't make much sense to me) Sonic = Air I guess they just couldn't come up with a good Earth energy, although it seems to be Electricity would do just fine for energy damage, since of those only Acid isn't an energy type. Too bad they didn't go with something like the fundamental forces: Strong Force (The force that holds nuclei of atoms together) Weak Force (The force that holds electrons away from nuclei) Electromagnetic Gravity I think that's all of them. Then you could have had different particle attacks Gluons, Gravitrons, Photons, and whatever the weak force particle is. I can't remember it at the moment! :) (Wow, waaaaay too much Physics in my last 2 posts!)
Enaloindir 01-07-05, 02:04 AM	From the 3.5 SRD SOUND BURST Evocation [Sonic] Level: Brd 2, Clr 2 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area: 10-ft.-radius spread Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude partial Spell Resistance: Yes You blast an area with a tremendous cacophony. Every creature in the area takes 1d8 points of sonic damage and must succeed on a Fortitude save to avoid being stunned for 1 round. Creatures that cannot hear are not stunned but are still damaged. Arcane Focus: A musical instrument. When looking at this spell, it seems pretty obvious that creatures don't need to hear to take sonic damage. This would imply that silence protects against only against certain spells (such as wail of the banshee), but not neccessarily against spells that deal sonic damage dice. Enaloindir
kenichi 01-07-05, 09:57 AM	No, what the Sound burst spell says is the sound created is powerful enough to deal damage to creatures and even objects. It is very much a sonic blast that jars the body, shatters windows, and breaks glasses and bottles like in cartons where someone hits a high note and things shatter. If you can hear it also has a chance of stunning you. The Silence spell basically stops all types of sound vibrations in its area. This makes anything in the area immune to sound effect and damage because the Silence spell stops any sound waves from entering the area. This would also stop any sonic weapon enchantments because it would stop the sound vibrations in the weapon as soon as it enters the area. Silence also stops cloaker moans and yrthak howls, except for the explosion one directed at an object outside of the silence area (the sound explodes an object and the fragements are what deals the damage in this case). It is really simple, if the spell or effect has the [sonic] descriptor, deals sonic damage, or is language based then it does not affect someone in the Silence area, unless the spell or effect speciffically states it works through the Silence spell of course.
Mirtek 01-07-05, 02:49 PM	Energy substitution is listed in the divine feats section, which seems to be intended for Deities only, i.e. "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats." If you are using them for normal PC's, be aware that they could be overpowering (or at least a bit out of date, being a carryover from 3.0). Also note: in 3.5 the Miniatures Handbook contains a feat (Elemental Substitution?) that seems intended to be a replacement for Energy substitution. It's similar, but doesn't allow sonic damage. Actually no, the divine feats are no new feats at all, but merely a collection from various other supplements. They're only added in DDG/F&P, that a DM could run a deity with one of these feats, without having to also own the supplement the feat originally came from. All these feats, including Energy substitution, are from other supplements meant for players (e.g. Energy substitution is from Tome&Blood)
mvincent 01-07-05, 04:19 PM	All these feats, including Energy substitution, are from other supplements meant for players (e.g. Energy substitution is from Tome&Blood)Tome & Blood was for 3.0, making (as I mentioned) the feat potentially unbalancing (or at least out of date) for 3.5. The Complete Arcane book would be the 3.5 equivalent for Tome & Blood (I'm told it presents the same feat without the sonic option)
Vorel-Aurixsveargith 01-07-05, 04:41 PM	No, what the Sound burst spell says is the sound created is powerful enough to deal damage to creatures and even objects. It is very much a sonic blast that jars the body, shatters windows, and breaks glasses and bottles like in cartons where someone hits a high note and things shatter. BTW, you can break things with a very low note as well. There are 2 ways to destroy things using sound. 1 is the volume, or the strength of the pulse hitting it. If you hit something hard enough it shatters, basically when sound does this the air is hitting with enough force to shatter things. The other thing, that comes from hitting high notes, is actually setting up a harmonic resonance within the object matching it's natural resonance. When this happens instead of the pulse being diminished within the object it is amplified. In some cases the wave can be so powerful the object will beging to pulse and this causes rigid objects to break. This is why a note can shatter things. For an example of the resonance damage, I believe it was the Tacoma's Narrow Bridge that was a flexible suspension bridge. Unfortuneatly when the wind blew through the narrows and through the bridge it approached the necessary frequency. One particularly windy day it was strong enough it hit the proper resonance and the bridge collapsed, quite spectarcuarly. [/physics lesson] How does this apply to sonic damage? This is how you can have stealthy sonic weapons. Anyway, sonic damage, while not resisted by most creatures really isn't all that much more powerful. So you can get past most resistances, whoop-de-do, most things that have multiple resistances tend to have plenty of hit points and will be doing damage of their own. And as we have said, Silence stops all sonic attacks. Fine by me. In other words, a 2nd level spell can stop even a +5 Keen Screaming Sonic Burst Thundering Scythe from doing 2d4+5+2d6 19-20/x4 +A crap load of damage from doing nearly as much damage.
Loren Pechtel 01-07-05, 11:56 PM	Sound has both frequency (measure in Hertz) and amplitude (measured in decibels). To speak in a simplified manner, the frequency (Hz.) determines the tone of the sound you hear (or don't hear if it is outside human limits), whereas decibels determines loudness. It is possible for a sound to either have a very high frequency (above 20,000Hz) or very low frequency (below 20 Hz) that would be entirely inaudible to human ears but still have very high decibels (say above 120). A sound who's frequency is outside of the range of human hearing, but still has high decibels could conceivably be "felt" as a pressure wave or a physical vibration, even though your ears don't hear anything. All forms of sound energy have a frequency (this is in essence the size of the sound wave), no matter the duration of the sound or "pressure wave" as you describe it. I agree that sound can be inaudible. However, in this case we are talking about a shockwave created by the detonation of the low explosive used to loft the shells. Do shockwaves have frequency??
Loren Pechtel 01-07-05, 11:58 PM	Interestingly the spell is amazingly powerful. If you cast Silence on yourself you become immune to some of the most powerful spells, such as Wail of the Banshee and Blasphemy. Not only protect yourself, but protect those within 20 ft of you! Near as I can tell, unless you try to center it on someone or something, there are no saving throws for it either, or spell resistance. Which means unless something has silent spell, it ain't gonna be casting jack. Get this spell and silence a really powerful spell and you just tipped the balance of power in your favor! Most critters don't have the silent spell feat. A wizard and cleric with silent spell and a Bard casting silence...damn...Spell casters become just this side of useless against you! I think this is the point of the auto-silent epic feat.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 01-08-05, 12:47 AM	I agree that sound can be inaudible. However, in this case we are talking about a shockwave created by the detonation of the low explosive used to loft the shells. Do shockwaves have frequency?? If something has a wavelength and a speed of propagation, it has a frequency. One could---I suspect---calculate a wavelength for a shockwave, and measure a speed of travel. Ergo, they have a frequency. Audible sound can come as a single pulse---that just means it'll be a really short sound, not that it isn't a sound.