Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kaldrin 05-27-05, 01:42 PM	Having recently engaged in Epic D&D on our current campaign, I've come under the realization that there's an engineered disparity between Range, Melee and Spell combat. Now, I understand that range has a significant advantage over melee in a general principle. In practise, however, it seems to be that my 27th level ranger is completely useless on far more occasions than the prestige-class-ridden fighter is, who is a straight meleer. I've also noted on several occasions how some epic level opponents seem to be dogmeat for the epic wizard in the group. What can we do about this? As a ranged attacker I don't have access to any of the fancy criticals (not that it matters, because 90% of the epic stuff we face is immune), and the specialized range attacks are limited to such a short range it's literally laughable to take them and expect to find any use in times that matter. Don't get me wrong, until 20th I was more or less holding my own. With up to 6 ranged attacks each round I'd whittle away at the big bad guys while the minions were being taken out by the rest of the group. Often the ranged attacks were what made the difference between victory and defeat. But, in Epic ranged combat dies an ugly, frothing death and I'm relegated to a support role, if I can do anything at all. There's got to be some way to enhance ranged abilities for Epic that don't get negated by retardely low level spells or simple abilities. Any ideas what an epic ranger is to do?
tarkin 05-27-05, 02:06 PM	1) Have you taken any Prestige Classes? Some of the archer prestige classes have POWERFULL abilities when they max out. 2) SWARM OF ARROWS [EPIC] is basically a whirlwind against every foe within 30ft. 3) Rangers are SPELLCASTERS. Get a couple of feats to make use of your spellcasting abilities. Say a quickened Hunter's Mercy (auto hit and auto-threaten a critical, normally this first level ranger's spell acts like True Strike you cast it now then make use of it next round - but quickened makes it POWERFULL) 4) Archery always has the advantage of offering an array of creature specific arrows. I.E. You could carry Holy Arrows, Axiomatic and Anarchic arrows. Now switch to Holy Power, Axiomatic Power and Anarchic Power.
Nephlite 05-27-05, 02:10 PM	Having recently engaged in Epic D&D on our current campaign, I've come under the realization that there's an engineered disparity between Range, Melee and Spell combat. Now, I understand that range has a significant advantage over melee in a general principle. In practise, however, it seems to be that my 27th level ranger is completely useless on far more occasions than the prestige-class-ridden fighter is, who is a straight meleer. I've also noted on several occasions how some epic level opponents seem to be dogmeat for the epic wizard in the group. What can we do about this? As a ranged attacker I don't have access to any of the fancy criticals (not that it matters, because 90% of the epic stuff we face is immune), and the specialized range attacks are limited to such a short range it's literally laughable to take them and expect to find any use in times that matter. Don't get me wrong, until 20th I was more or less holding my own. With up to 6 ranged attacks each round I'd whittle away at the big bad guys while the minions were being taken out by the rest of the group. Often the ranged attacks were what made the difference between victory and defeat. But, in Epic ranged combat dies an ugly, frothing death and I'm relegated to a support role, if I can do anything at all. There's got to be some way to enhance ranged abilities for Epic that don't get negated by retardely low level spells or simple abilities. Any ideas what an epic ranger is to do? Level 27 means you spot rank is around 30 so if you took 10 you got 40 result9not counting wis bonus) Penalty -1 per 5 feet. 100 feet is -20 so at 100 feet away you got 20 result. Basically you should be able to spot enemies long before they can even see a bit of you. A lv 27 Wizard has max spot 15 cross rank. He can barely see you and that is only if he builds up his cross skills. Sure, if they wizard "can" spot you he mignt destroy you, but he has no chance seeing you. Rangers are stealthy/ambushing dudes! Use your stealth. Never played Epic, but you need to relearn basics of stealth. If they can't see yu than they can't frag you.
kaldrin 05-27-05, 02:47 PM	1) Have you taken any Prestige Classes? Some of the archer prestige classes have POWERFULL abilities when they max out. I'm working on a campaign-modified Order of the Bow right now.. only 3rd level. From everything I can see, despite having some unique abilities, quite a few of the bow PCs are quite... ancillary, not range-defining. Added to that, our GM won't allow quite a few of the prestige classes listed in books. He's trying to limit classes for some reason to mainly those of the PHB. I have no idea why. There are a few exceptions... mostly his own special PCs or those brought in by especially convincing players. 2) SWARM OF ARROWS [EPIC] is basically a whirlwind against every foe within 30ft. 30' is pretty useless for me. Going with the stealth motif of the ranger, I'm rarely within 100' when I do shoot (I've only been within 30' of an enemy once in 27 levels). I feel that Swarm is such a one-off, situational power, it's not worth loosing an epic slot on. 3) Rangers are SPELLCASTERS. Get a couple of feats to make use of your spellcasting abilities. Say a quickened Hunter's Mercy (auto hit and auto-threaten a critical, normally this first level ranger's spell acts like True Strike you cast it now then make use of it next round - but quickened makes it POWERFULL) That would be great... if I knew what Hunter's Mercy was. We use the PHB for 90% of the allowed spells too. Added to that, to gain Automatic Quicken, don't you have to be able to cast 9th level spells? Though that was a PR... 4) Archery always has the advantage of offering an array of creature specific arrows. I.E. You could carry Holy Arrows, Axiomatic and Anarchic arrows. Now switch to Holy Power, Axiomatic Power and Anarchic Power. This is a good idea and I've started to supplement my quiver with a few unique ideas, such as an arrow of Dispelling for those pesky Wind Walls/spell-like effects. I have no idea what Axiomatic or Anarchic arrows would do though...
kaldrin 05-27-05, 02:54 PM	Never played Epic, but you need to relearn basics of stealth. If they can't see yu than they can't frag you. I think you need to play epic and figure out how useless stealth is once people start being able to use life-sight and tremor sense and all that crud. Epic enemies have a lot of that, in addition to ungodly (or perhaps godly) movements and reach. There's a lot you're not taking into account.
crazysamaritan 05-27-05, 02:55 PM	He was advising you take the feat to gain another spell slot, then quicken spell. Prep it as quickened. The spell I think is in comp. adv. the arrows increase damage against Lawful/Chaotic creatures.
Tony Vargas 05-27-05, 03:21 PM	I don't think there's much hope of balancing the game at 'Epic' levels (or even much into double-digit levels, really). It's just the nature of the game, the higher you go, the more rules come into play (because there are more spells/items/feats/class abilities/etc being used), and the more chances there are for unintended synergies among them (ie loopholes). If the melee guys are doing well, and the casters are erasing the oppostion, and you're not, that just means they've found more of those loopholes than you have - so far. It may also just be the challenges you're facing. Running a high level game that's challenging, fair, and interesting to all involved is hard enough, Epic level would just be moreso.
tarkin 05-27-05, 05:07 PM	I like Order of the Bow, but there is NO way you should be at 3rd level. Order of the bow is a regular prestige Class. By the time you hit level 20, you should be 10th level, and looking at the EPIC version of the Order of the Bow. Working on your third level, YES, it will look weak. That is like trying to compare a 3rd level Wizards ability with an epic character. If you are an Epic character, you should have maxed out most regular prestige classes already. Anarchic = Chaos version of Holy, and Axiomatic = Law version of Holy effect. Hunter's Mercy was printed in Magic of Faerun, pg 101. Other spells printed for 3.5 you might like include entangle/briarweb stough, hawkeye, There are lots of ways to cast it quickened, I was thinking of the feet Automatic Quicken, but you can't learn that as you only know 9th level spells. Also, the spell is still good, even unquickened. Also, consider getting the Epic feats Bane of Enemies (all bows are treated as bane for your favored enemies) and Death of Enemies. Death Of Enemies [Epic] Prerequisites Bane of Enemies, Survival 30 ranks, five or more favored enemies. Benefit Any time you score a critical hit against one of your favored enemies, it must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ your ranger class level + your Wisdom modifier) or die instantly.
kaldrin 05-27-05, 05:30 PM	I think the biggest problem is that the basic ranged abilities are lacking on a lot of levels. I will admit there is the ability to carry around an arrow for every occasion, but you're limited with that regard to how much the character can carry. I've used up several dozen arrows fighting one epic creature. Carrying that many specialized arrows is a problem.
kaldrin 05-27-05, 05:44 PM	I like Order of the Bow, but there is NO way you should be at 3rd level. snip If you are an Epic character, you should have maxed out most regular prestige classes already. Why? Why should my effectiveness as a player and character be determined by min/maxing prestige classes? It only proves further that the basic classes and abilities are inadequate. I remember the days of yore when we had only the classes in the basic book to play with. Anarchic = Chaos version of Holy, and Axiomatic = Law version of Holy effect. Hunter's Mercy was printed in Magic of Faerun, pg 101. Other spells printed for 3.5 you might like include entangle/briarweb stough, hawkeye, Won't matter if I like them. It's up to the DM, I'm afraid. Also, consider getting the Epic feats Bane of Enemies (all bows are treated as bane for your favored enemies) and Death of Enemies. Yeah, I have considered those too. I would probably get bane, but Death would be a waste. Generally speaking we only fight in major battles and RP most of the other time. Of the battles 90% of the enemies are immune to crits. Seriously, I've been able to use my Improved Critical with the bow maybe 3 or 4 times. Now we're in Epic, so I expect I might get one more in the space of the next 40 levels or so. Not a good % chance for being able to use Death of Enemies.
Lord Schpungus 05-27-05, 07:10 PM	Why? Why should my effectiveness as a player and character be determined by min/maxing prestige classes? It only proves further that the basic classes and abilities are inadequate. I remember the days of yore when we had only the classes in the basic book to play with. [/idiotic chest thumping to pay respects to Tradition] You probably made some bad feat/skill choices along the way. Sorry, dude. That said, Cragtop Archer from Races of Stone really works with making range Special. You're also a generalist, I'm sure, whereas your fighter buddy is a specialist. Specialists trump generalists in their area of specialization. Take full stock of all your abilities (yes, that means spellcasting too).
kaldrin 05-27-05, 07:46 PM	[/idiotic chest thumping to pay respects to Tradition] You probably made some bad feat/skill choices along the way. Sorry, dude. That said, Cragtop Archer from Races of Stone really works with making range Special. Well, I did pick a few that are turning out to be wastes of time... but the DM has a system that lets you pay XP to buy feats. So, in the end, it's not a huge issue. You're also a generalist, I'm sure, whereas your fighter buddy is a specialist. Specialists trump generalists in their area of specialization. Take full stock of all your abilities (yes, that means spellcasting too). Being able to discuss it with others makes me think the problem with the campaign is that it's mostly RP in epic. It has been quite a while since I even made one of my generalist rolls. Sure, I've got survival 30. Big deal. I haven't had to even roll a d20 in 2 sessions now... :banghead: *can't wait for his own campaign to start*