Dispelling a Headband of Intellect [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dispelling a Headband of Intellect [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Heironymus_Vann
02-18-05, 02:21 AM Let's assume I targeted dispel an enemy mage's headband of intellect (or an enemy cleric's periapt of wisdom)... the caster level isn't hard to beat (8th) especially with a greater dispel, so it's likely that I'll suppress it for 1-4 rounds.

This means two things:

1. He loses the int (or wis) bonus for 1-4 rounds, impacting his DCs and

2. He loses bonus spells provided by the int increase.

So here is the question: are the lost spells "gone"... that is, when the int bonus returns, do the spells return? or are they gone, as would happen with an enervation, not to return until they are rememorized?

I'm inclined to say they are "gone", not just temporarily suppressed, making it a very effective opening salvo against an enemy mage.

Thought?

HV
Nom
02-18-05, 05:22 AM I'm inclined to say: gone, as in his spells/day are reduced and he loses the same number of active spell slots (unused, if possible) until the bonus is restored (in 1d4 rounds).

Edit: Hmm, I totally misread your use of the word "gone". I disagree. Rather, the caster loses access to the relevant slots (uncast first) until the Int is restored.

The precedent for losing uncast first is negative levels (DMG pg 293), which causes the creature to lose access to a spell, and to slots on rememorisation. I don't know of a precedent for whether they are regained or not, except in that it seems inconsistent for a temporary reduction to directly cause permanent inconvenience once the reduction is removed.

Otherwise, you end up with the situation where a touch of idiocy (PH pg 294) may permanently wipe a caster's mind of many useful spells. In fact, the spell description is rather unhelpful here. It does say that the caster is unable to use spells for which they fail to meet the pre-reqs. It does not say that they lose spell slots, nor does it say that any slots lost are permanent. The only rules that specifically do cause slot loss are level loss or death.
Lord of Dorkness
02-18-05, 05:52 AM yeah, gone.
Keenath
02-18-05, 09:59 AM Nah, the spell slots are temporarily supressed as long as the headband is. It's overpowering otherwise, blowing up a bunch of your highest-level spells. You loose access when it gets supressed, then you get them back when your points rise again.
Krelios
02-18-05, 10:11 AM Actually you don't even lose the spells, you're score has a temporary penalty and the spells you have memorized are still there, you just can't cast them because you don't have the requisite Intelligence score. It's no different the using Dispel Magic on a wand. During the duration, the wand has spells in it that can't be used; once the duration expires the spells can be used again.
tarkin
02-18-05, 11:11 AM There are two issues:

Issue 1) I memorized a 5th level spell, but my Int is now 14. In this case, Krelios is correct, you have the spell, you just can't cast it.

Issue 2) I memorize 6 3rd level spells, in part because my Int was so high I had bonus 3rd levels spells. With my int down to 14 I get no Bonus 3rd level spells. Those spells are GONE.

Int/Wis/Char increases the maximum # of spells slots you can have prepared/available at any one time.

This means that if your int/wis/cha drops below, your brain can no longer support those extra spells and the energy goes away
Nom
02-18-05, 05:58 PM Does anyone else have comments on what the rules actually say, or just opinions stated as fact? I've not been able to find anything in the rulebooks about this, so I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else has, or even if they can make a reasonable argument based on precedent.

Strongly held opinions I can generate on my own. :)
Keenath
02-18-05, 07:25 PM Int/Wis/Char increases the maximum # of spells slots you can have prepared/available at any one time.

This means that if your int/wis/cha drops below, your brain can no longer support those extra spells and the energy goes away

Well, hold on a second. Wouldn't that unfairly penalize casters who prepare spells? Or do spontaneous casters lose spell slots that don't come back?

Actually, having thought about it, I think maybe it SHOULD cause casters to lose both prepared spells or slots, whichever you have.

Consider: Assume you have a party with two wizards. Would you allow this mess?

Caster A puts on a headband of intellect +6. He sleeps 8 hours while Caster B watches. Then he gets up and prepares his spells. He removes the headband, then hands it to B, who goes to sleep. 8 hours later, he gets up and prepares HIS spells. Now they trade the headband during the day, when either one needs access to the bonus spells.

That's horribly abusive and munchkin. But is it really that much different? Supressed or removed, the headband's effects have disappeared, and the benefits ought to vanish as well... Just one of the weaknesses of stat-boosting items, I guess...
Draco_Whitewind
02-19-05, 02:57 AM if a wizard ever removed it, they would lose spells, but indeed, the headband of inteleect adds capability to casting, not just bonus spells. he would lose whatever spells he prepared "extra" since he aquired the item, which might already be expent, thus meaning his DCs may just drop.
it really based on if the memorization is explicit. as a DM, if he was smart enough to list them those are the breaks, I am have done that with spells that may be lost, but otherwise, if the NPC/PC wasn't marked for what spells were where, it should just be random. remember spells lost like this cannot be restored with pearls of power however, since when it comes back, it's like they were never there in the first place.
~Draco
Nom
02-19-05, 08:49 AM Consider: Assume you have a party with two wizards. Would you allow this mess?

Caster A puts on a headband of intellect +6. He sleeps 8 hours while Caster B watches. Then he gets up and prepares his spells. He removes the headband, then hands it to B, who goes to sleep. 8 hours later, he gets up and prepares HIS spells. Now they trade the headband during the day, when either one needs access to the bonus spells.Yes. Though you've still made it too easy on them.

Firstly, they need the headband for 9 hours apiece, 8 of rest and at least 1 of preparation. So there goes 18 hours; only 6 remain to do anything useful.

Second, uncast spells are lost first (precedent - negative energy drain). So as soon as they take the headband off, they lose a bunch of uncast spells. That's going to get very inconvenient very quickly, especially in a tactical situation, not to mention various AoOs and whatnot for passing the headband around like a pair of idiots.

Finally, I'd rule that the benefits of over-preparation vanish at the next preparation time, so if they want to keep this up they'll need another 18 hour cycle.

In addition, I would start hitting my mages with fatigue penalties if they thought they could frequently sleep at random times during the day and still count as "fully rested".

So while the tactic is theoretically possible, the amount of times it would actually be useful becomes vanishingly small.
Draco_Whitewind
02-19-05, 03:21 PM Personally, this is not negaive levels. they are NOT having spells forcibly removed. that's what negative levels are. they are merely loosing the capability to memorize more. it's an indrect bonus. the item grants them a bonus to intelligence. let's say the headband granted them just ONE bonus spell for 9th level. (28 int, 22 base) now the wizard is 17th level, and has one base 9th level spell. there is a difference between a spell they always have, and a bonus spell. if they prepare a spell in the bonus slot, cast it, and remove the item, they lose only the potential to memorize a bonus spell, which they no longer have memorized.
~Draco
BW0222
02-19-05, 06:55 PM The question was already answered on the wild shape/polymorph question. A druid with an amulet of wisdom wildshaping into a form unable to wear it (separate arguement), her wisdom returns to normal. Bonus spell slots from your higher wisdom are lost - beginning with unfilled slots.

When you return to your normal form, you gain the wisdom back. You get the bonus "slots" back, but they are unfilled. You need to wait until your next pray/study period to refill them.

Loss of your key ability score can have massive consequences. Curse, poison, disease, etc. can all drop one's primary spellcasting ability and loss of any bonus spell slots naturally follows.
tarkin
02-20-05, 09:46 AM Sorcerors are treated the same as Wizards - if you temporarily lose a stat, the bonus level slots are unusable.
runestar
02-21-05, 08:02 AM I would say for spellcasters, spellcaster ability loss means you lose the slot and the spell in the slot. Even if you regain the slot later on, it can only be used after 8 hours of rest, as in the case for sorcs. I noticed in games like baldurs gate2, when your sorc lvs up, you do not immediately gain access to new slots, but must rest first. It sounds fair.
digoraccoon
02-21-05, 08:32 AM I would say for spellcasters, spellcaster ability loss means you lose the slot and the spell in the slot. Even if you regain the slot later on, it can only be used after 8 hours of rest, as in the case for sorcs. I noticed in games like baldurs gate2, when your sorc lvs up, you do not immediately gain access to new slots, but must rest first. It sounds fair.
I agree with this method, it's also what I use for situations when a player "levels up" during the day and then needs access to his spells before the day is up. The slots are unusuable until the character gets rest.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Heironymus_Vann 02-18-05, 02:21 AM	Let's assume I targeted dispel an enemy mage's headband of intellect (or an enemy cleric's periapt of wisdom)... the caster level isn't hard to beat (8th) especially with a greater dispel, so it's likely that I'll suppress it for 1-4 rounds. This means two things: 1. He loses the int (or wis) bonus for 1-4 rounds, impacting his DCs and 2. He loses bonus spells provided by the int increase. So here is the question: are the lost spells "gone"... that is, when the int bonus returns, do the spells return? or are they gone, as would happen with an enervation, not to return until they are rememorized? I'm inclined to say they are "gone", not just temporarily suppressed, making it a very effective opening salvo against an enemy mage. Thought? HV
Nom 02-18-05, 05:22 AM	I'm inclined to say: gone, as in his spells/day are reduced and he loses the same number of active spell slots (unused, if possible) until the bonus is restored (in 1d4 rounds). Edit: Hmm, I totally misread your use of the word "gone". I disagree. Rather, the caster loses access to the relevant slots (uncast first) until the Int is restored. The precedent for losing uncast first is negative levels (DMG pg 293), which causes the creature to lose access to a spell, and to slots on rememorisation. I don't know of a precedent for whether they are regained or not, except in that it seems inconsistent for a temporary reduction to directly cause permanent inconvenience once the reduction is removed. Otherwise, you end up with the situation where a touch of idiocy (PH pg 294) may permanently wipe a caster's mind of many useful spells. In fact, the spell description is rather unhelpful here. It does say that the caster is unable to use spells for which they fail to meet the pre-reqs. It does not say that they lose spell slots, nor does it say that any slots lost are permanent. The only rules that specifically do cause slot loss are level loss or death.
Lord of Dorkness 02-18-05, 05:52 AM	yeah, gone.
Keenath 02-18-05, 09:59 AM	Nah, the spell slots are temporarily supressed as long as the headband is. It's overpowering otherwise, blowing up a bunch of your highest-level spells. You loose access when it gets supressed, then you get them back when your points rise again.
Krelios 02-18-05, 10:11 AM	Actually you don't even lose the spells, you're score has a temporary penalty and the spells you have memorized are still there, you just can't cast them because you don't have the requisite Intelligence score. It's no different the using Dispel Magic on a wand. During the duration, the wand has spells in it that can't be used; once the duration expires the spells can be used again.
tarkin 02-18-05, 11:11 AM	There are two issues: Issue 1) I memorized a 5th level spell, but my Int is now 14. In this case, Krelios is correct, you have the spell, you just can't cast it. Issue 2) I memorize 6 3rd level spells, in part because my Int was so high I had bonus 3rd levels spells. With my int down to 14 I get no Bonus 3rd level spells. Those spells are GONE. Int/Wis/Char increases the maximum # of spells slots you can have prepared/available at any one time. This means that if your int/wis/cha drops below, your brain can no longer support those extra spells and the energy goes away
Nom 02-18-05, 05:58 PM	Does anyone else have comments on what the rules actually say, or just opinions stated as fact? I've not been able to find anything in the rulebooks about this, so I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else has, or even if they can make a reasonable argument based on precedent. Strongly held opinions I can generate on my own. :)
Keenath 02-18-05, 07:25 PM	Int/Wis/Char increases the maximum # of spells slots you can have prepared/available at any one time. This means that if your int/wis/cha drops below, your brain can no longer support those extra spells and the energy goes away Well, hold on a second. Wouldn't that unfairly penalize casters who prepare spells? Or do spontaneous casters lose spell slots that don't come back? Actually, having thought about it, I think maybe it SHOULD cause casters to lose both prepared spells or slots, whichever you have. Consider: Assume you have a party with two wizards. Would you allow this mess? Caster A puts on a headband of intellect +6. He sleeps 8 hours while Caster B watches. Then he gets up and prepares his spells. He removes the headband, then hands it to B, who goes to sleep. 8 hours later, he gets up and prepares HIS spells. Now they trade the headband during the day, when either one needs access to the bonus spells. That's horribly abusive and munchkin. But is it really that much different? Supressed or removed, the headband's effects have disappeared, and the benefits ought to vanish as well... Just one of the weaknesses of stat-boosting items, I guess...
Draco_Whitewind 02-19-05, 02:57 AM	if a wizard ever removed it, they would lose spells, but indeed, the headband of inteleect adds capability to casting, not just bonus spells. he would lose whatever spells he prepared "extra" since he aquired the item, which might already be expent, thus meaning his DCs may just drop. it really based on if the memorization is explicit. as a DM, if he was smart enough to list them those are the breaks, I am have done that with spells that may be lost, but otherwise, if the NPC/PC wasn't marked for what spells were where, it should just be random. remember spells lost like this cannot be restored with pearls of power however, since when it comes back, it's like they were never there in the first place. ~Draco
Nom 02-19-05, 08:49 AM	Consider: Assume you have a party with two wizards. Would you allow this mess? Caster A puts on a headband of intellect +6. He sleeps 8 hours while Caster B watches. Then he gets up and prepares his spells. He removes the headband, then hands it to B, who goes to sleep. 8 hours later, he gets up and prepares HIS spells. Now they trade the headband during the day, when either one needs access to the bonus spells.Yes. Though you've still made it too easy on them. Firstly, they need the headband for 9 hours apiece, 8 of rest and at least 1 of preparation. So there goes 18 hours; only 6 remain to do anything useful. Second, uncast spells are lost first (precedent - negative energy drain). So as soon as they take the headband off, they lose a bunch of uncast spells. That's going to get very inconvenient very quickly, especially in a tactical situation, not to mention various AoOs and whatnot for passing the headband around like a pair of idiots. Finally, I'd rule that the benefits of over-preparation vanish at the next preparation time, so if they want to keep this up they'll need another 18 hour cycle. In addition, I would start hitting my mages with fatigue penalties if they thought they could frequently sleep at random times during the day and still count as "fully rested". So while the tactic is theoretically possible, the amount of times it would actually be useful becomes vanishingly small.
Draco_Whitewind 02-19-05, 03:21 PM	Personally, this is not negaive levels. they are NOT having spells forcibly removed. that's what negative levels are. they are merely loosing the capability to memorize more. it's an indrect bonus. the item grants them a bonus to intelligence. let's say the headband granted them just ONE bonus spell for 9th level. (28 int, 22 base) now the wizard is 17th level, and has one base 9th level spell. there is a difference between a spell they always have, and a bonus spell. if they prepare a spell in the bonus slot, cast it, and remove the item, they lose only the potential to memorize a bonus spell, which they no longer have memorized. ~Draco
BW0222 02-19-05, 06:55 PM	The question was already answered on the wild shape/polymorph question. A druid with an amulet of wisdom wildshaping into a form unable to wear it (separate arguement), her wisdom returns to normal. Bonus spell slots from your higher wisdom are lost - beginning with unfilled slots. When you return to your normal form, you gain the wisdom back. You get the bonus "slots" back, but they are unfilled. You need to wait until your next pray/study period to refill them. Loss of your key ability score can have massive consequences. Curse, poison, disease, etc. can all drop one's primary spellcasting ability and loss of any bonus spell slots naturally follows.
tarkin 02-20-05, 09:46 AM	Sorcerors are treated the same as Wizards - if you temporarily lose a stat, the bonus level slots are unusable.
runestar 02-21-05, 08:02 AM	I would say for spellcasters, spellcaster ability loss means you lose the slot and the spell in the slot. Even if you regain the slot later on, it can only be used after 8 hours of rest, as in the case for sorcs. I noticed in games like baldurs gate2, when your sorc lvs up, you do not immediately gain access to new slots, but must rest first. It sounds fair.
digoraccoon 02-21-05, 08:32 AM	I would say for spellcasters, spellcaster ability loss means you lose the slot and the spell in the slot. Even if you regain the slot later on, it can only be used after 8 hours of rest, as in the case for sorcs. I noticed in games like baldurs gate2, when your sorc lvs up, you do not immediately gain access to new slots, but must rest first. It sounds fair. I agree with this method, it's also what I use for situations when a player "levels up" during the day and then needs access to his spells before the day is up. The slots are unusuable until the character gets rest.