Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Flatliner 09-23-04, 03:39 PM	First time Poster, so please be gentle. Ok here is the situation i require help with. A melee character(ranger/paly etc..) squares off agains a spellcaster in the woods with lots of tree's and obstructions. The melee character wants to prevent the spellcaster from getting off spells, but cannot risk getting in a graple with the spellcaster due to other factors. My questions regarding the situation are as follows. How can the melee character have a decent change of stoping the mage from casting spells, ie forcing a concentration check. Lets assume the following. Mage and shall we say.. a Fighther are adjacent to each other in a rather heavily wooded area with a fair amount of obstructions. For the sake of the argument lets say the wizard has initiative and neither of them are flatfooted. The mage has several options. He can move 5 feet back and get off a spell, or move 30 feet and cast a spell but be subjected to an AoO. (In this case he does not have to make a concentration check because the AoO is caused by leaving threatened square, not casting... Right?) To me a smart wizard would move 30 feet away and take the AoO rather than letting the fighter get his full attack. Then even if the fighter readys and action, in a place with lots of obstruction such as the woods, he will not be able to charge the wizard to attempt to disrupt the spell.. THe way I see it is in this, rather common situation, the wizard gets off pretty lightly due to the rules. He can cast spells with impunity and all the fighter character can do is get in 1 AoO and a regular attack every round. A heavily armoured clearic could be popping off powerfull spells every round like this and be able to survive quite long before his HP run out. It seems to me, distracting spellcasters is really hard... Am I missing something? Thanks for all your comments. Flatliner.
FenixNightShade 09-23-04, 03:44 PM	First, realize that the first 5 feet are free, and that if you do hit with an AoO caused by casting a spell, the Concentration DC is equal to damage dealt. Read up on Readying, you can ready a distraction, i'm not sure if that's a free action, but that makes the caster have to roll Concentration.
Dunbar 09-23-04, 03:53 PM	The fighter has several more options. 1. with his AoO he could trip. A successful trip is really bad news for the wizard. He can choose to trip later also when he charges and attacks the wizard. Getting up from prone provokes an AoO as well. 2. With his AoO he could grapple. Being grappled is generally bad news for wizards. He can also choose to charge and grapple later if the wizard move away. 3. He could switch to a ranged weapon and ready an action to disrupt the wizard's spell. I'm sure there are more, but these are a good start. Also, he can use cover to his advantage as well; most spells will require line of sight and line of effect. If there are enough obstructions he could get into a position where the wizard can't cast spells on him directly, though he still might be vulnerable to, say, a well placed fireball. Of course, at higher levels, a fighter is most probably going to be toast when up against a primary spellcaster in a one on one fight, but that's just how the cookie crumbles.
tarkin 09-23-04, 04:13 PM	If the wizard has the initiatve, it is generally too late for the fighter to do anything. The wizard can take the 5ft step back then cast the spell freely. The fighter would not be able to do anything to stop him, unless he had reach. But if the fighter had initiative he can 1) ready an action to attack when the mage starts to cast spells via a ranged weapons, (assuming the mage does not reach full cover from trees) or 2) trip the mage then make additional attacks. The Mage being down, can not get up, move and cast a spell, he must cast the spell where he is, taking the AoO for casting.
Flatliner 09-23-04, 05:15 PM	Thanks to all who commented. The trip option to me seems to work the best. It limits the mages ability escape the Full attack option, and also makes it imposible for the mage to escape a readied action to distance him/herself from the fighter. In most cases, with a few power attacks via the full attack option the mage will go down in 1 or 2 rounds. So it pretty much comes down to fighters saves vs the mages Hp. Last question however... If the mage standing next to the fighter chooses to move 30 and THEN cast a spell, and the fighter chooses to attack with his AoO (for damage rather than trip) does the mage still need to make a Concentration check? Seems a bit tricky to me. The AoO occured because of movemnt outside of a threatend space on the mages turn, but NOT at the specific moment he casts the spell. Once again thanks. THis really is going to help out our campaign. Flatliner
FitzNighteyes 09-23-04, 05:45 PM	2) trip the mage then make additional attacks. The Mage being down, can not get up, move and cast a spell, he must cast the spell where he is, taking the AoO for casting.Why can't he: Stand from Prone (AoO) 5ft step back Cast spell Note that it is debatable (lets not have it in this thread though) if the AoO on Stand from Prone can be used to Trip again, or if it has any effect, so this may be a way to cast without taking the AoO during casting. Of course, the mage could instead just cast the spell defensively while lying on the ground (Concentration Check DC 15+ spell level isn't that hard to make).
FitzNighteyes 09-23-04, 05:47 PM	If the mage standing next to the fighter chooses to move 30 and THEN cast a spell, and the fighter chooses to attack with his AoO (for damage rather than trip) does the mage still need to make a Concentration check?No. He does not take damage while casting the spell, so no concentration check. The AoO that caused the damage happened while moving (the first square of movement most likely).
Flatliner 09-23-04, 07:18 PM	How do you rule with distracting spellcasters when readied actions are concerned. I understand that the readied action immediatly preceeds the actual causitive event. SO lets say your fighter readies and action to disrupt the spellcaster. Some senarios... a)If the mage moves 5' and casts. The warrior steps in and slices forcing a Con check. Correct? b)If the mage moves 30' The warrior get his AoO when he tries to leave the threatend square(Move causes Aoo). He can then try and trip the wizard. If the trip succeds, and the mage still wishes to cast a spell, he will be well withing range of the Readied attack of the warrior, (Likelly forcing a Con check) which is activated when Correct? If this is the case, once a warrior has closed in, it will be quite tough for a mage to get off his spells with a warrior with a readied action/AoO Trip combo. The improved trip feat seems like a great choice(+4) for taking care of pesky mages. C) If the mage decides to stay and make a melee attack, (Like a cleric or F/M spellcaster would) do you still get your readied attack? The term disrupt seems vague, but i guess you could use it to apply to almost any standard action that the oponent tries to take. WOW this is complicated.. Or am I making it complex? :) THanks to all again. Flatliner
ride1wheel 09-23-04, 07:42 PM	[QUOTE=FitzNighteyes]Why can't he: 5ft step back /QUOTE] His movement is hinderered, so he can't take a 5 ft step.
FenixNightShade 09-23-04, 07:54 PM	First: You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance. So you can't stand (move action) and take a 5ft step Next: Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks So you can trip on an AoO, but they get one as well (See Improved Trip for no AoO) and when they get up, you AoO before they stand, so you still get +4 to hit. Oh and Readying is a standard action and You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round Withdraw: Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square These are all important things to consider, also realize that if you use a ranged weapon, they usually do not threaten after you've fired your shot. Get Quick Draw, or an Enlarge Person potion or Exotic (spiked chain) so that you can have a 10 ft range or the ability to change weapons quickly. If I was a cleric going up against a fighter, i wouldn't mind if the fighter gets in too close, just 5ft step, cast Hold Person, and then Coup de Grace on next turn Oh, btw all this is 3.5 :D
FitzNighteyes 09-23-04, 07:55 PM	Hindered by what? Did I miss a terrain hinderance somewhere?
FitzNighteyes 09-23-04, 07:57 PM	Standing is not movement. You can stand and take a 5ft step in the same round.
Flatliner 09-23-04, 08:10 PM	Standing is not movement. You can stand and take a 5ft step in the same round. I would tend to agree with this. Otherwise any Move action other than ACTUALLY moving would prevent the 5' step as well. EX: A first level wizard with BAB of 0 can draw a weapon(move) attack (standard) and take his 5' step. I think is comes down to semantics of how you interpret the wording... Is standing considered movement? Not in the horizontal plane/Grid map that I consider movement. But i agree it really is open to interpretation. Flatliner.
Flatliner 09-23-04, 08:20 PM	First: Oh and Readying is a standard action and You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round Oh, btw all this is 3.5 :D Great points, thanks. I also appriciate that you could charge a mage down as readied action. However a smart caster would likely try and find a way to maintain line of sight,(like sitting around a corner) but prevent charge access because there is not a clear path. I really think the charge rulling is too restrictive, it really hampers melee characters. I am considering combining regular movement with certain charges in my campaign. Ex: Fighter moves 10 feet north, then charge 20' east to the mage. Limiting these types of charges to 30'total or less AND must have at least 10 of charge space. I dont think this can be done in the current rules. Flatliner
FenixNightShade 09-24-04, 12:44 AM	From the 3.5 SRD Stand Up Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity. If you want to house rule different, but I'm assuming this guy is using the rules as is from the PHB/SRD. Now you can always give up your standard action to move (hence double move) so you can stand and move, but the 5ft step action can not be taken if you have moved/taken a move action if I'm understanding this, plus you have to think that this all occurs in 6 seconds, 3 seconds to stand up, then you have 3 left to move and attack... that just doesn't seem kosher to me. Addon: Complete Warrior has a feat that allows you to make one 90 degree or less change in movement while charging, so you could charge around corners with that. (If you character had reason to suspect there was something around the corner)
FitzNighteyes 09-24-04, 02:29 AM	Stand Up Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity.Move Action. Not movement. And the rule on 5ft steps are that you can take one as long as you do no other movement for the round. Since you didn't have any movement (you used a move action, which is completely different), you can 5ft step. So, house rule all you want, but by the PHB and SRD, you can Stand from Prone, 5ft step and Cast a Spell all in one round.
Kakerate 09-24-04, 12:28 PM	Just cast as a fighter to save you the armorless troble that wizards have. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=312649 Now you can do major damage.
The Legendary Two Sandals 09-24-04, 03:49 PM	since you did put rought terrian in this scinero, brush i belive it was every one must spend 2 squares of movement to move 1 square thus you cannot take a 5 foot step.
FitzNighteyes 09-24-04, 05:25 PM	since you did put rought terrian in this scinero, brush i belive it was every one must spend 2 squares of movement to move 1 square thus you cannot take a 5 foot step.True, if there is rough terrain. I didn't interpret Flatliner's original post that way though.