Divine Metamagic + Night Stick [Archive] - Wizards Community

Divine Metamagic + Night Stick [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
f00lb0y
03-02-07, 12:07 PM The Night Stick (Libris Mortis), grants +4 turning attempts while in possession. Two questions on this:
1) How many night sticks can a person possess and gain benefits from?

2) How long must the possessor NOT possess the Night Stick before they can reuse the item?

Problem is as follows: I've a player who insists on using/abusing the Divine Metamagic ( which uses turning attempts to fuel the spell-level cost of metamagic feats), with the Persistent Spell Metamagic feat (which increases a spells level by 6). His work-around on not having enough Turning Attempts is to purchase a whole slew of Nightsticks.
FrostHammer
03-02-07, 01:06 PM No definite answer on whether night sticks stack.

The solution: Ban Persistent Spell from working with DMM.
tarkin
03-02-07, 01:17 PM I just call Persistent spell an Epic metamagic feat. No other feat has such a high cost and honestly, I have only found two situations.

1. Persistent spell is too high a metamagic cost, so the players never use it.

2. Players find a way to lower Persistent Spell to a low cost, and then proceed to abuse the crap out of it.
Someone
03-02-07, 01:19 PM Just clarify DMM to only work with the cleric's own turning attempts, not those from an item. Of course, the player could get around this by simply taking the Extra Turning feat lots of times. Or picking up a cloak of charisma.

As an aside, what spell is he trying to make persistent? Persistent has a rather strict limitation on what spells it can effect, if I recall correctly.
f00lb0y
03-02-07, 01:53 PM I'm aware of the limitations to Persistent Spell, as well as the high cost. Also aware of the feats which cause Metamagic Feats to cost-less.

Stacking, the item creation requirement is Extra Turning, and as that does stack it would stand to reason that the item would also stack.

The real question isn't whether it's abusive or should be denied so much as How Many Night Sticks can be in possession - which comes down to the definition of Possession itself. If the item must be held in hand or just on their person, etc.

I suppose this is just one of those RAW (Rules as Written) combinations that will receive abuse. As the game in question is about RAW, I don't plan on denying anything regardless of abuse/cheese-factor.
ninja1
03-02-07, 03:02 PM 1) up to the maximum encumbrance limit for that character.

2) there is no such need to "not" possess the item before you are allowed to use it again the next day.
risner
03-02-07, 04:53 PM Also, if you ever lose possession of the item, you lose the turn attempts from your maximum until you are in possession of the item again. Check the item, there may also be an attunement period where you don't gain the benefit until a day or two.

Example:
Cleric with 6 turn attempts.

Adds two "Extra Turning" feats that grant 4 each (+8) for 14 total.

Uses 14 turn attempts.

Gives two E.T. rods away, down to 6 turns per day with 14 turns per day used.

Gets two different E.T. rods from another friend.

Back up to 14/day and 14 used today, so no new turning attempts even tho he has rods that came from someone else.
Nezkrul
03-03-07, 06:37 PM the easiest fix I've seen for DMM + Persistent + Nightstick combo is that the cleric who wishes to use a specific Nightstick (they are all devoted to one particular deity when made so he can't use them if they aren't for this deity) must first cast the Commune spell to "attune" himself to the particular Nightstick in order to use it from now on. Basically adding a hidden cost to equation, which also requires a small degree of roleplaying.

Persistent Spell is NOT an epic feat. Making it so is a houserule. It can start being applied to 0th level spells at 11th level.

If you have trouble with splat books, then run games that only use the core books.
Bopple
03-03-07, 06:59 PM There is no actual definition of 'possession' in D&D3.5.
DM has the every right to define it.
Ashen_Child
03-03-07, 11:06 PM Stacking, the item creation requirement is Extra Turning, and as that does stack it would stand to reason that the item would also stack.

Of course, bonuses from items are typically weaker than the spell/feat that they require. It would also render Extra Turning virtually useless.

I know the bonus is not given a type, but isn't it usually the case that bonuses from the same source don't stack? Even without divine metamagics, infinitely stacking non-slotted, permanent items seem to fall into the 'broken' catagory.

As for the 'abandoning and recovering', i'd treat it the same way as a temporary charisma boost (can't remember where i saw this, but you count the total number of uses that day against you current number of uses per day. Effectively you use the bonuses 'last' and thus can't just keep swapping out items for an infinite bonus).
ArchonJohn
03-04-07, 07:03 AM If he's running crazy with persistent magic and you want him to stop, send a creature with antimagic field after him.

It'll be funny, especially if the monster is faster then him.

Or have someone steal his sticks.

Or they run out of juice.

Or they were inferiorilly crafted.

Or *insert random death here*
TessarrianDM
03-04-07, 08:08 AM We have house-ruled that a nightstick must be held to function.

Also, keep in mind that a nightstick is a rod. The standard description of a rod from the DMG has them weighing 5 pounds apiece, and there is nothing in the description of the item to indicate otherwise. They could quickly weigh down a character.

Storing them in an extradimensional space (such as a bag of holding) would be ineffective. A Bag of Holding, Heward's Handy Haversack, and Quiver of Ehlonna all use the spell Leomund's Secret Chest in their creation, meaning that items placed in them are actually stored on the Ethereal Plane. As no magical attacks, including force effects, can be cast from the Ethereal Plane to affect a target on the Material Plane, it stands to reason that the magical effect generated by the nightstick could not cross into the Prime Material plane either.
Thiez
03-04-07, 08:28 AM Fair enough, but you'd only need to hold these sticks while casting your spells, right?

I'd just keep track of used 'charges' of the nightstick/day instead of 'used turnings'/day. Why? Well, a party of 4 clerics (or any number greater than 1, really) could share their nightsticks, making a single nightstick grant 4*4 = 16 extra turning attemps/day (assuming they all have the same deity).
Nezkrul
03-04-07, 12:24 PM Fair enough, but you'd only need to hold these sticks while casting your spells, right?

I'd just keep track of used 'charges' of the nightstick/day instead of 'used turnings'/day. Why? Well, a party of 4 clerics (or any number greater than 1, really) could share their nightsticks, making a single nightstick grant 4*4 = 16 extra turning attemps/day (assuming they all have the same deity).

this little "trick" requires the DM to define the term 'Possession'.
Merestil Haye
03-04-07, 01:15 PM Having checked the nightstick, it has no charges. It just raises the number of times the person in possession of it can turn undead.

As for defining possession - since it has no D& D definition, use regular English meanings. If the item is considered attended for the purposes of saving throws, then it is in a creature's possession. That's a perfectly adequate definition in D&D terms.

The FAQ explains how to manage the use of turning checks - you track the maximum number the creature can do per day, and the number used. It applies to every such variable-use ability.

Strictly speaking the multiple-nightstick abuse is legal. I prefer to require a period of attunement before the possessor can use the item in order to control it, rather than keep track of nightstick charges - much less bookkeeping.
JulesCARV
03-04-07, 01:50 PM I don't have Libris Mortis, but I don't see why multiple nightsticks should stack. They're the same item. Why should they stack any more than two Rings of Protection? Granted, it may grant an unnamed bonus, but unnamed bonuses from the same source still don't stack.

Maybe you could raise the number of turnings granted by a single nightstick, but if I were to allow that, I would make the cost for raising it quadratic. I.e., a nightstick that grants x turnings has a cost of 468.75*x^2. Maybe you can have a nightstick that grants twelve turnings, but that costs 67500 gp.
Ashen_Child
03-04-07, 04:47 PM Fair enough, but you'd only need to hold these sticks while casting your spells, right?

I'd just keep track of used 'charges' of the nightstick/day instead of 'used turnings'/day. Why? Well, a party of 4 clerics (or any number greater than 1, really) could share their nightsticks, making a single nightstick grant 4*4 = 16 extra turning attemps/day (assuming they all have the same deity).

I'd probably still go with the turnings/day since they can already do this with the sorcerer/bard's cloak of charisma. (+6 gives only 1 less turn attempt).

Oh, and they only benifit from the 'exploit' once they're down to their last turning attempts per day: and that's when they get their persistant spells dispelled and a swarm of undead on their backs

Personally, i think the cleric with a sack full of nightsticks will probably be a greater threat: even if he is limmited to holding them, he can still just keep trading them out.
Kratch
03-04-07, 05:14 PM A human cleric who takes the feat quicken, repeat, twin and chain, along with the DMM versions of those same spells can effectively cast 3-6 gates (depending on how you allow metamagic stacking) and 28-156 save or dies (again depending on how you allow stacking) with a single round of casting. And he could easily do this 6-7 times per day (depending on his domains chosen) and still have all his 7th and bellow spells, which could also be twined, repeated and chained. And he can do all this with the only stat demands being wisdom and maybe str (to carry the sticks, presuming you don't allow possession to include a haversack and/or bags of holding), meaning he can do it with a cha of 8 (or less if rolling).

I can appreciate your desire to play by the rules as best you can, but sometimes, houserules need to be made when using multiple splatbooks.
Merestil Haye
03-04-07, 07:00 PM I don't have Libris Mortis, but I don't see why multiple nightsticks should stack. They're the same item. Why should they stack any more than two Rings of Protection? Granted, it may grant an unnamed bonus, but unnamed bonuses from the same source still don't stack.Because, fundamentally, Nightsticks don't give a bonus!

The word "bonus" is conspicuous by it's absence from the text of the item. They just do what they say. Allow the possessor to turn undead four more times per day. This is not any form of bonus. Hence the rules on bonuses stacking don't apply to it.
Dheran
03-04-07, 07:34 PM I know the bonus is not given a type, but isn't it usually the case that bonuses from the same source don't stack? The stacking rules are a lot more limited than that:Stacking Effects

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). Turning attempts isn't on the list of "bonuses or penalties" to which the stacking limits apply. So there's no rules limit to the number of Nightsticks a character can benefit from. A DM can add such a limit, of course, but that's only a house rule.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork
03-04-07, 11:33 PM Just clarify DMM to only work with the cleric's own turning attempts, not those from an item. Of course, the player could get around this by simply taking the Extra Turning feat lots of times. Or picking up a cloak of charisma.

As an aside, what spell is he trying to make persistent? Persistent has a rather strict limitation on what spells it can effect, if I recall correctly.
Persenal Spells. Which by Chain Spell can target more people, plus all the really good buffs are persenal buffs.

the easiest fix I've seen for DMM + Persistent + Nightstick combo is that the cleric who wishes to use a specific Nightstick (they are all devoted to one particular deity when made so he can't use them if they aren't for this deity) must first cast the Commune spell to "attune" himself to the particular Nightstick in order to use it from now on. Basically adding a hidden cost to equation, which also requires a small degree of roleplaying.

Persistent Spell is NOT an epic feat. Making it so is a houserule. It can start being applied to 0th level spells at 11th level.

If you have trouble with splat books, then run games that only use the core books.
First you start off talking about how you house rule a fix for the night sticks, then you finish by telling them to run core games and not house rule.

I think you started with a good post, then you gave it all up to make a passing flame/rant at people. Why do you even post here?

If he's running crazy with persistent magic and you want him to stop, send a creature with antimagic field after him.

It'll be funny, especially if the monster is faster then him.
Or have someone steal his sticks.
Or they run out of juice.
Or they were inferiorilly crafted.
Or *insert random death here*
Use use the 6th level wiz/sor spell that steals buffs. Or the 9th level version that steals anything.

We have house-ruled that a nightstick must be held to function.

Also, keep in mind that a nightstick is a rod. The standard description of a rod from the DMG has them weighing 5 pounds apiece, and there is nothing in the description of the item to indicate otherwise. They could quickly weigh down a character.

Storing them in an extradimensional space (such as a bag of holding) would be ineffective. A Bag of Holding, Heward's Handy Haversack, and Quiver of Ehlonna all use the spell Leomund's Secret Chest in their creation, meaning that items placed in them are actually stored on the Ethereal Plane. As no magical attacks, including force effects, can be cast from the Ethereal Plane to affect a target on the Material Plane, it stands to reason that the magical effect generated by the nightstick could not cross into the Prime Material plane either.

Good point out on the bag, most think they can just throw in in their pag of holding.

Strictly speaking the multiple-nightstick abuse is legal. I prefer to require a period of attunement before the possessor can use the item in order to control it, rather than keep track of nightstick charges - much less bookkeeping.

Attuement is nothing. Your just delaying the uberness that will come.
Ban it or think of something better.

***

First off, as the DM you can limit stuff. Do it.
Start with a fix that you should have already have done. Clerics have to worship deities. There, you fixed the Undeath/Planning problem, if there really is a way to claim a deity can have both domains point out the deity don't. Problem one solved. Next, try limited magic items in your game like a "real" world does. No wizard is going to have 12 of them in stock, you'll be lucky if the wizard even has one. The church may stock a few up, but few means less than 10 to me. Theres no way they will give them all up to one selfish PC who refuses to leave any left over for the chruchs local saviors.

Next, ditch Southen Magician. It's a forgotten realms feat that will allow the cleric to applie devine metamagic (persistant spell) on arcane based spells. If your not running a FR based game it's not even a home rule to ban it. You have to house rule to allow it in and don't forget that.

The last thing to "nerfing" a night stick without changing a single thing is to use a wizard on him. Complete Scoundrel has a spell called "Steal Spell" that works kinda like a greater dispel spell. Only it can target one creature and area hit all their buffs. Dispeling the buffs this way instead givers the dispeler the buffs. In one fateful turn your uber cleric loses eveything and now has you face a uber wizard. The SpC I believe has a 9th level dispel that does the same thing, but can area target anything in 20 feet. Which fixes the chained buffs too.

If your PC's use a dozen splat books and find some powerful combo then try spending a few moments looking into a book or two to counter it. They spent hours finding how something and used the metaknowledge to create it, don't sit thing thinking you can just read off the stats listed for a Balor in the MM1 and post here claiming their broken. Turn the tables and use a splat booked monster on them. It only takes one Feral 9-headed Hydra with Soul Eater levels to change their minds about claiming they can splatbook and become gods vs whatever you make. I already pointed out how to nerf their entire persistant spell setup with a 11th level sorcerer/wizard just by using one spell from one book. Surly you can find other ways.

***
Edit, Heres a way to fix them with core only vs splat book.

Human, Rogue 5, 18 dex, maxed ranks in Sleight of Hand. On an 8 or higher he steals their stick. IF the cleric spots them that don't mean the rogue's check failed, it just means they were seen doing it. Give the rogue a few more levels and he can search a backpack for the items without the cleric ever knowing. It could be random theft, or the BBEG got a 10 on his knowledge check and decided to try and stack the odds against the heros. Part of his cunning plan was to prevent the cleric form going super sayian evey morning with a poorly staged pick pocket act.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
f00lb0y 03-02-07, 12:07 PM	The Night Stick (Libris Mortis), grants +4 turning attempts while in possession. Two questions on this: 1) How many night sticks can a person possess and gain benefits from? 2) How long must the possessor NOT possess the Night Stick before they can reuse the item? Problem is as follows: I've a player who insists on using/abusing the Divine Metamagic ( which uses turning attempts to fuel the spell-level cost of metamagic feats), with the Persistent Spell Metamagic feat (which increases a spells level by 6). His work-around on not having enough Turning Attempts is to purchase a whole slew of Nightsticks.
FrostHammer 03-02-07, 01:06 PM	No definite answer on whether night sticks stack. The solution: Ban Persistent Spell from working with DMM.
tarkin 03-02-07, 01:17 PM	I just call Persistent spell an Epic metamagic feat. No other feat has such a high cost and honestly, I have only found two situations. 1. Persistent spell is too high a metamagic cost, so the players never use it. 2. Players find a way to lower Persistent Spell to a low cost, and then proceed to abuse the crap out of it.
Someone 03-02-07, 01:19 PM	Just clarify DMM to only work with the cleric's own turning attempts, not those from an item. Of course, the player could get around this by simply taking the Extra Turning feat lots of times. Or picking up a cloak of charisma. As an aside, what spell is he trying to make persistent? Persistent has a rather strict limitation on what spells it can effect, if I recall correctly.
f00lb0y 03-02-07, 01:53 PM	I'm aware of the limitations to Persistent Spell, as well as the high cost. Also aware of the feats which cause Metamagic Feats to cost-less. Stacking, the item creation requirement is Extra Turning, and as that does stack it would stand to reason that the item would also stack. The real question isn't whether it's abusive or should be denied so much as How Many Night Sticks can be in possession - which comes down to the definition of Possession itself. If the item must be held in hand or just on their person, etc. I suppose this is just one of those RAW (Rules as Written) combinations that will receive abuse. As the game in question is about RAW, I don't plan on denying anything regardless of abuse/cheese-factor.
ninja1 03-02-07, 03:02 PM	1) up to the maximum encumbrance limit for that character. 2) there is no such need to "not" possess the item before you are allowed to use it again the next day.
risner 03-02-07, 04:53 PM	Also, if you ever lose possession of the item, you lose the turn attempts from your maximum until you are in possession of the item again. Check the item, there may also be an attunement period where you don't gain the benefit until a day or two. Example: Cleric with 6 turn attempts. Adds two "Extra Turning" feats that grant 4 each (+8) for 14 total. Uses 14 turn attempts. Gives two E.T. rods away, down to 6 turns per day with 14 turns per day used. Gets two different E.T. rods from another friend. Back up to 14/day and 14 used today, so no new turning attempts even tho he has rods that came from someone else.
Nezkrul 03-03-07, 06:37 PM	the easiest fix I've seen for DMM + Persistent + Nightstick combo is that the cleric who wishes to use a specific Nightstick (they are all devoted to one particular deity when made so he can't use them if they aren't for this deity) must first cast the Commune spell to "attune" himself to the particular Nightstick in order to use it from now on. Basically adding a hidden cost to equation, which also requires a small degree of roleplaying. Persistent Spell is NOT an epic feat. Making it so is a houserule. It can start being applied to 0th level spells at 11th level. If you have trouble with splat books, then run games that only use the core books.
Bopple 03-03-07, 06:59 PM	There is no actual definition of 'possession' in D&D3.5. DM has the every right to define it.
Ashen_Child 03-03-07, 11:06 PM	Stacking, the item creation requirement is Extra Turning, and as that does stack it would stand to reason that the item would also stack. Of course, bonuses from items are typically weaker than the spell/feat that they require. It would also render Extra Turning virtually useless. I know the bonus is not given a type, but isn't it usually the case that bonuses from the same source don't stack? Even without divine metamagics, infinitely stacking non-slotted, permanent items seem to fall into the 'broken' catagory. As for the 'abandoning and recovering', i'd treat it the same way as a temporary charisma boost (can't remember where i saw this, but you count the total number of uses that day against you current number of uses per day. Effectively you use the bonuses 'last' and thus can't just keep swapping out items for an infinite bonus).
ArchonJohn 03-04-07, 07:03 AM	If he's running crazy with persistent magic and you want him to stop, send a creature with antimagic field after him. It'll be funny, especially if the monster is faster then him. Or have someone steal his sticks. Or they run out of juice. Or they were inferiorilly crafted. Or insert random death here
TessarrianDM 03-04-07, 08:08 AM	We have house-ruled that a nightstick must be held to function. Also, keep in mind that a nightstick is a rod. The standard description of a rod from the DMG has them weighing 5 pounds apiece, and there is nothing in the description of the item to indicate otherwise. They could quickly weigh down a character. Storing them in an extradimensional space (such as a bag of holding) would be ineffective. A Bag of Holding, Heward's Handy Haversack, and Quiver of Ehlonna all use the spell Leomund's Secret Chest in their creation, meaning that items placed in them are actually stored on the Ethereal Plane. As no magical attacks, including force effects, can be cast from the Ethereal Plane to affect a target on the Material Plane, it stands to reason that the magical effect generated by the nightstick could not cross into the Prime Material plane either.
Thiez 03-04-07, 08:28 AM	Fair enough, but you'd only need to hold these sticks while casting your spells, right? I'd just keep track of used 'charges' of the nightstick/day instead of 'used turnings'/day. Why? Well, a party of 4 clerics (or any number greater than 1, really) could share their nightsticks, making a single nightstick grant 4*4 = 16 extra turning attemps/day (assuming they all have the same deity).
Nezkrul 03-04-07, 12:24 PM	Fair enough, but you'd only need to hold these sticks while casting your spells, right? I'd just keep track of used 'charges' of the nightstick/day instead of 'used turnings'/day. Why? Well, a party of 4 clerics (or any number greater than 1, really) could share their nightsticks, making a single nightstick grant 4*4 = 16 extra turning attemps/day (assuming they all have the same deity). this little "trick" requires the DM to define the term 'Possession'.
Merestil Haye 03-04-07, 01:15 PM	Having checked the nightstick, it has no charges. It just raises the number of times the person in possession of it can turn undead. As for defining possession - since it has no D& D definition, use regular English meanings. If the item is considered attended for the purposes of saving throws, then it is in a creature's possession. That's a perfectly adequate definition in D&D terms. The FAQ explains how to manage the use of turning checks - you track the maximum number the creature can do per day, and the number used. It applies to every such variable-use ability. Strictly speaking the multiple-nightstick abuse is legal. I prefer to require a period of attunement before the possessor can use the item in order to control it, rather than keep track of nightstick charges - much less bookkeeping.
JulesCARV 03-04-07, 01:50 PM	I don't have Libris Mortis, but I don't see why multiple nightsticks should stack. They're the same item. Why should they stack any more than two Rings of Protection? Granted, it may grant an unnamed bonus, but unnamed bonuses from the same source still don't stack. Maybe you could raise the number of turnings granted by a single nightstick, but if I were to allow that, I would make the cost for raising it quadratic. I.e., a nightstick that grants x turnings has a cost of 468.75*x^2. Maybe you can have a nightstick that grants twelve turnings, but that costs 67500 gp.
Ashen_Child 03-04-07, 04:47 PM	Fair enough, but you'd only need to hold these sticks while casting your spells, right? I'd just keep track of used 'charges' of the nightstick/day instead of 'used turnings'/day. Why? Well, a party of 4 clerics (or any number greater than 1, really) could share their nightsticks, making a single nightstick grant 4*4 = 16 extra turning attemps/day (assuming they all have the same deity). I'd probably still go with the turnings/day since they can already do this with the sorcerer/bard's cloak of charisma. (+6 gives only 1 less turn attempt). Oh, and they only benifit from the 'exploit' once they're down to their last turning attempts per day: and that's when they get their persistant spells dispelled and a swarm of undead on their backs Personally, i think the cleric with a sack full of nightsticks will probably be a greater threat: even if he is limmited to holding them, he can still just keep trading them out.
Kratch 03-04-07, 05:14 PM	A human cleric who takes the feat quicken, repeat, twin and chain, along with the DMM versions of those same spells can effectively cast 3-6 gates (depending on how you allow metamagic stacking) and 28-156 save or dies (again depending on how you allow stacking) with a single round of casting. And he could easily do this 6-7 times per day (depending on his domains chosen) and still have all his 7th and bellow spells, which could also be twined, repeated and chained. And he can do all this with the only stat demands being wisdom and maybe str (to carry the sticks, presuming you don't allow possession to include a haversack and/or bags of holding), meaning he can do it with a cha of 8 (or less if rolling). I can appreciate your desire to play by the rules as best you can, but sometimes, houserules need to be made when using multiple splatbooks.
Merestil Haye 03-04-07, 07:00 PM	I don't have Libris Mortis, but I don't see why multiple nightsticks should stack. They're the same item. Why should they stack any more than two Rings of Protection? Granted, it may grant an unnamed bonus, but unnamed bonuses from the same source still don't stack.Because, fundamentally, Nightsticks don't give a bonus! The word "bonus" is conspicuous by it's absence from the text of the item. They just do what they say. Allow the possessor to turn undead four more times per day. This is not any form of bonus. Hence the rules on bonuses stacking don't apply to it.
Dheran 03-04-07, 07:34 PM	I know the bonus is not given a type, but isn't it usually the case that bonuses from the same source don't stack? The stacking rules are a lot more limited than that:Stacking Effects Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). Turning attempts isn't on the list of "bonuses or penalties" to which the stacking limits apply. So there's no rules limit to the number of Nightsticks a character can benefit from. A DM can add such a limit, of course, but that's only a house rule.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 03-04-07, 11:33 PM	Just clarify DMM to only work with the cleric's own turning attempts, not those from an item. Of course, the player could get around this by simply taking the Extra Turning feat lots of times. Or picking up a cloak of charisma. As an aside, what spell is he trying to make persistent? Persistent has a rather strict limitation on what spells it can effect, if I recall correctly. Persenal Spells. Which by Chain Spell can target more people, plus all the really good buffs are persenal buffs. the easiest fix I've seen for DMM + Persistent + Nightstick combo is that the cleric who wishes to use a specific Nightstick (they are all devoted to one particular deity when made so he can't use them if they aren't for this deity) must first cast the Commune spell to "attune" himself to the particular Nightstick in order to use it from now on. Basically adding a hidden cost to equation, which also requires a small degree of roleplaying. Persistent Spell is NOT an epic feat. Making it so is a houserule. It can start being applied to 0th level spells at 11th level. If you have trouble with splat books, then run games that only use the core books. First you start off talking about how you house rule a fix for the night sticks, then you finish by telling them to run core games and not house rule. I think you started with a good post, then you gave it all up to make a passing flame/rant at people. Why do you even post here? If he's running crazy with persistent magic and you want him to stop, send a creature with antimagic field after him. It'll be funny, especially if the monster is faster then him. Or have someone steal his sticks. Or they run out of juice. Or they were inferiorilly crafted. Or insert random death here Use use the 6th level wiz/sor spell that steals buffs. Or the 9th level version that steals anything. We have house-ruled that a nightstick must be held to function. Also, keep in mind that a nightstick is a rod. The standard description of a rod from the DMG has them weighing 5 pounds apiece, and there is nothing in the description of the item to indicate otherwise. They could quickly weigh down a character. Storing them in an extradimensional space (such as a bag of holding) would be ineffective. A Bag of Holding, Heward's Handy Haversack, and Quiver of Ehlonna all use the spell Leomund's Secret Chest in their creation, meaning that items placed in them are actually stored on the Ethereal Plane. As no magical attacks, including force effects, can be cast from the Ethereal Plane to affect a target on the Material Plane, it stands to reason that the magical effect generated by the nightstick could not cross into the Prime Material plane either. Good point out on the bag, most think they can just throw in in their pag of holding. Strictly speaking the multiple-nightstick abuse is legal. I prefer to require a period of attunement before the possessor can use the item in order to control it, rather than keep track of nightstick charges - much less bookkeeping. Attuement is nothing. Your just delaying the uberness that will come. Ban it or think of something better. * First off, as the DM you can limit stuff. Do it. Start with a fix that you should have already have done. Clerics have to worship deities. There, you fixed the Undeath/Planning problem, if there really is a way to claim a deity can have both domains point out the deity don't. Problem one solved. Next, try limited magic items in your game like a "real" world does. No wizard is going to have 12 of them in stock, you'll be lucky if the wizard even has one. The church may stock a few up, but few means less than 10 to me. Theres no way they will give them all up to one selfish PC who refuses to leave any left over for the chruchs local saviors. Next, ditch Southen Magician. It's a forgotten realms feat that will allow the cleric to applie devine metamagic (persistant spell) on arcane based spells. If your not running a FR based game it's not even a home rule to ban it. You have to house rule to allow it in and don't forget that. The last thing to "nerfing" a night stick without changing a single thing is to use a wizard on him. Complete Scoundrel has a spell called "Steal Spell" that works kinda like a greater dispel spell. Only it can target one creature and area hit all their buffs. Dispeling the buffs this way instead givers the dispeler the buffs. In one fateful turn your uber cleric loses eveything and now has you face a uber wizard. The SpC I believe has a 9th level dispel that does the same thing, but can area target anything in 20 feet. Which fixes the chained buffs too. If your PC's use a dozen splat books and find some powerful combo then try spending a few moments looking into a book or two to counter it. They spent hours finding how something and used the metaknowledge to create it, don't sit thing thinking you can just read off the stats listed for a Balor in the MM1 and post here claiming their broken. Turn the tables and use a splat booked monster on them. It only takes one Feral 9-headed Hydra with Soul Eater levels to change their minds about claiming they can splatbook and become gods vs whatever you make. I already pointed out how to nerf their entire persistant spell setup with a 11th level sorcerer/wizard just by using one spell from one book. Surly you can find other ways. * Edit, Heres a way to fix them with core only vs splat book. Human, Rogue 5, 18 dex, maxed ranks in Sleight of Hand. On an 8 or higher he steals their stick. IF the cleric spots them that don't mean the rogue's check failed, it just means they were seen doing it. Give the rogue a few more levels and he can search a backpack for the items without the cleric ever knowing. It could be random theft, or the BBEG got a 10 on his knowledge check and decided to try and stack the odds against the heros. Part of his cunning plan was to prevent the cleric form going super sayian evey morning with a poorly staged pick pocket act.