DM mod (bab +5 max) [Archive] - Wizards Community

DM mod (bab +5 max) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
slaveryISfreedom
10-22-06, 03:14 PM Hi all,

Some background; my DM decided that he didnt quite like the way dnd combat rules worked so he tweaked some things. The biggest tweak, imo, is the capping of BAB at 5 (at 20) for full bab classes, BAB+3 for rogues and such, and +2 for wizy's.

He justified this by removing ALL magic from the campaign, so no bracers of armor, or wizards, monsters(we'll be fighting other humans exclusively), etc. He also by converting weapon spec and greater weapon spec to +1 to atk bonus, and then +2(replaced previous) to atk bonus that stacked with weapon focus.

My main concern, as I'm playing a fighter, is that I'll get to higher level and I will be unable to hit anything, and vice versa. Would this be a valid concern or do you think that it will stay balanced.

I'm looking for feedback, and possible problems thatI can bring to his attention that neither he, nor I, noticed.

Thanks.

war is peace
narukagami
10-22-06, 03:31 PM Just play a fighter in fullplate with a tower shield, fight defensivly, and don't worry about hitting anything because you're just trying to prove a point.

Your DM should slowly realize he's a complete idiot.
Dalthbar
10-22-06, 03:51 PM I agree with the "complete idiot" opinion.

Have fun against high natural armor enemies. Have fun against high-dex enemies. Have fun against enemies in full plate w/ large shields. Have fun against teenie tiny things (that also will likely have high dexes).

Not all high ACs are magic-based.
slaveryISfreedom
10-22-06, 03:55 PM hmm, I was planning on going with a short sword, and a small shield (as its a light weapon for bashing).

I don't really want to make a char just so I could be weak, and prove that the rules suck. Mainly for 2 reasons, this DM is a good friend of mine (who's trying to do the best he can), and I've already broken a game 'proving a point' to a previous dm who ticked me off by ignoring the rules and creating a no plot/diablo/fight club type game.

He's not really that much of an idiot, but in previous games he's noticed that DND seems to be the most balanced at around levels 4-8 and so I think he's just trying to widen that level range.
Dalthbar
10-22-06, 03:58 PM Oh - and congratulate your DM on totally cutting the balls off of Power Attack and the host of feats that modify it. In addition to that, weakening every feat that doesn't "use" PA but has it as a pre-req.

Woot!
slaveryISfreedom
10-22-06, 04:26 PM I agree with the "complete idiot" opinion.

Have fun against high natural armor enemies. Have fun against high-dex enemies. Have fun against enemies in full plate w/ large shields. Have fun against teenie tiny things (that also will likely have high dexes).

Not all high ACs are magic-based.

true but, mostly we'll be fighting other humans. so high nat armor won't be an issue.

besides if you have a tower shield and full plate and 14 dex how high can your ac get? 27?

I'll bring up that point for PA being nearly worthless. Any other things I can bring to his attention?
Archangel62
10-22-06, 04:38 PM let's not forget feats with a BaB requirement. The biggest issue I can see here is that from now on the best strategy is simply to use alchemical items to destroy your foes. Plus, after a certain point no one can hit anyone else, especially with a few other powers.
Ryu Katsuragi
10-22-06, 04:43 PM Lets see...

Halfling +1AC
Dex 16 +3AC
Mithril full plate +9AC
Tower Shield +4AC
Shield Specialization (assuming some non-core) +1AC
Heavy Armour Optimization +1AC (I think the feat was)

29AC. In your DM's system, that means...

20th level Human Fighter = BAB+5. Strength 18 (+4). Masterwork Longsword (+1). Greater Weapon Focus (+2). Greater Weapon Specialization (+2) (If I understood the houseruling correctly)

So, against this opponent, the best human warrior could do is a 25% chance to hit. This is just a human.

Not to mention, this now makes characters like Monks (who depend on Bracers of Armour, Wisdom and Dexterity enhancements) unplayable (best you can get is AC18.)

I can't wait till you start fighting Ogres.
Azzy
10-22-06, 04:50 PM You might want to ask your DM, "Why play D&D at this point when there are quite a few other games out there that already do the no-magic thing without having to rewrite the game?"

Heck, there's the D20 Past (http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Products/?doc=177400000) supplement for D20 Modern (http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Products/?doc=881900000). Or, if you want something free, there's Fuzion (http://www.talsorian.com/software/fuzion.pdf), Action System (http://www.goldrushgames.com/files/ActionCoreFree.pdf) and GURPS Lite (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004).
Dalthbar
10-22-06, 04:51 PM Oh - defending weapons are totally fubar'ed as well.
jaelis
10-22-06, 04:56 PM Just play a spell caster.

Oh, I didn't see, there's no casters. Well OK. You're just not playing dnd. I guess if your DM is a competent game designer, it could still work out. But it sounds like a lot of work, and kind of a cheat if you signed on to play dnd.
Ogre4Hire
10-22-06, 05:46 PM Lets see...

Halfling +1AC
Dex 16 +3AC
Mithril full plate +9AC
Tower Shield +4AC
Shield Specialization (assuming some non-core) +1AC
Heavy Armour Optimization +1AC (I think the feat was)

29AC.

You forgot Combat Expertise. 33 AC (Full Plate is a +8 armor bonus)
DracoPhoenix
10-22-06, 05:57 PM Buy him a copy of dnd modern, and black out all the bits relating to guns.

that should achieve what he's after.

:)
(half serious suggestion)
[edit:]
unless theres a dnd medievil... is there?
Vanigo
10-22-06, 06:06 PM Buy him a copy of dnd modern, and black out all the bits relating to guns.

that should achieve what he's after.

:)
(half serious suggestion)
[edit:]
unless theres a dnd medievil... is there?I'm pretty sure there's a d20 Past.
Ryu Katsuragi
10-22-06, 06:36 PM I'm pretty sure there's a d20 Past.

There is, but as I remember, it doesn't relate to the Dark Ages. It starts from about the Age of Discovery, through to World War II or something. -Hasn't read in awhile-
RayOMan
10-22-06, 06:48 PM Have fun against high natural armor enemies.
Have fun against enemies in full plate w/ large shields.

Splash weapons. You just need to hit the square or line intersection close to the person and I believe the AC for that is 10.

Improved Grapple. Touch attacks negate all of this crap.

Have fun against high-dex enemies. Have fun against teenie tiny things (that also will likely have high dexes).

Improved Feint+High Bluff. Negate their Dex bonus and hit them all in the same round.
Johannixx
10-22-06, 07:22 PM Just play a fighter in fullplate with a tower shield, fight defensivly, and don't worry about hitting anything because you're just trying to prove a point.

Your DM should slowly realize he's a complete idiot.

Yep. No spells that require touch attacks, so you won't get as much penalty for being a lumbering tank. Load up on full plate, get a big shield, fight defensively, use Combat Expertise, and you will be invulnerable.
draconic_swine
10-22-06, 07:27 PM Splash weapons. You just need to hit the square or line intersection close to the person and I believe the AC for that is 10.

True, but the splash weapons in the PHB only deal 1 point of damage unless it's a direct hit. That's a lot of splash weapons needed to kill something.
Ogre4Hire
10-22-06, 08:17 PM Well, it's not like you'll be saving up for some big expensive magic it, is it?
draconic_swine
10-22-06, 09:57 PM That's also true, but if it's a low-powered campaign fighting mostly human foes, I also doubt they're gonna be encountering hoards of treasure.

Besides, how boring would that be? There'll be no iterative attacks, so combat with splash items would end up being everyone just standing there, throwing a single flask per round unless they've taken a feat (which, by the way, would be pretty much required as everyone would end up taking to increase their output). Woo! There wouldn't even be much movement - so what if I lob a flask of acid and move away? You can just move after me and end up the same distance away. Nothing's changed.

No, splash weapons would be a bad idea.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
10-22-06, 10:01 PM Also keep in mind that this means that no one will ever get more than one attack, unless you use TWF.
narukagami
10-22-06, 10:43 PM There'll be no iterative attacks, so combat with splash items would end up being everyone just standing there, throwing a single flask per round unless they've taken a feat (which, by the way, would be pretty much required as everyone would end up taking to increase their output). Woo! There wouldn't even be much movement - so what if I lob a flask of acid and move away? You can just move after me and end up the same distance away. Nothing's changed. So in the end, the DM in question has turned D&D into a crappy Final Fantasy tabletop game. :rolleyes:

DM: "You see some enemies, now everyone get in a line and take turns trying to hit your opponents. Nevermind the fact you're heros of epic proportions or anything. Wait, nevermind, you're not really heros of epic proportions at all, because I decided it was somehow a good idea to take away your ability to hit the broadside of a barn."

There is nothing wrong with changing the way combat works to improve things. Take a look at the OGL Conan rules. But he definatly did not, beyond the shadow of a doubt, improve anything, in the least.
Archangel62
10-22-06, 10:44 PM Aside from THAT problem if he really wanted to do this he needs to switch over to armor as DR. Either way the fights are gonna drag on but at least this time the game won't break down into 'I can't hit anything, nothing can hit me, what's the point.'
PhaedrusXY
10-22-06, 11:11 PM This is ridiculous. Buy him a copy of Unearthed Arcana. There are some reasonably balanced rules modifications in there that change the way armor works, etc. Heck, he can even look at the stuff online (http://www.d20srd.org/) until he gets a copy of the book, since it is OGL (It is in the Variant Rules section).
Seerow
10-22-06, 11:18 PM Halfling +1AC
Dex 16 +3AC
Mithril full plate +9AC
Tower Shield +4AC
Shield Specialization (assuming some non-core) +1AC
Heavy Armour Optimization +1AC (I think the feat was)

29AC. In your DM's system, that means...

20th level Human Fighter = BAB+5. Strength 18 (+4). Masterwork Longsword (+1). Greater Weapon Focus (+2). Greater Weapon Specialization (+2) (If I understood the houseruling correctly)

So, against this opponent, the best human warrior could do is a 25% chance to hit. This is just a human.

Not to mention, this now makes characters like Monks (who depend on Bracers of Armour, Wisdom and Dexterity enhancements) unplayable (best you can get is AC18.)

1) Instead of Fighter20, let's look at a Fighter4/Barbarian16. Since you're using noncore for the Halfling, we'll go noncore for the Fighter. You get MWM and Greater Rage. You also have +5 strength from levels, but since we don't have magic and are assuming a starting 18, we'll make that a +4, the other +1 going somewhere else.

So your strength ends up at 18+4(levels)+6(rage)=28. +9. +4 from your feats, +13. +5 from BAB, +18. +1 from Masterwork, +19. vs AC29 is 50%

But wait! Shield Specialization doesn't work with Tower Shields! So the Halfling loses 1 AC (assuming he keeps the Tower Shield, as that's still 4 AC vs 3 AC), so it's +19 vs AC28. Get rid of the noncore feats and it's +16 vs AC27.

Any way you spin it, it's 45%-55% chance of hitting

As for the monk...

Halfling Monk. (since we're assuming high stats)
Dex:20
Wis: 17

After levels, it's Dex24, Wis18.

10+7(Dex)+4(wis)+5(Monk)+1(size)=27 AC. Matches your full plate/tower shield just fine.
Omega the Powerfull
10-22-06, 11:24 PM I've played once with a crazy DM that created new "rules" for D&D. In his conception the characters started at level 1/4 - and the max level was the fifth.

He wold us that to be a fifth level character would be almost unbelievable in his world. I didn't like the idea but played anyway.

It all started in the basic tavern. I was playing with a rogue, the basic pickpocketing kind of guy. And I've tried to pickpocket a old man in the bar. I did pretty well in the dice and the DM roled a 2, but somehow the guy noticed it.

I a world where the 5th is the max level that wouldn't be right. Don't need to say that a major diccussion took place and I never played with again....

Well what I got to say is that if the world live by the same rules OK if not It sucks
Salla
10-22-06, 11:24 PM Hi all,

Some background; my DM decided that he didnt quite like the way dnd combat rules worked so he tweaked some things. The biggest tweak, imo, is the capping of BAB at 5 (at 20) for full bab classes, BAB+3 for rogues and such, and +2 for wizy's.

He justified this by removing ALL magic from the campaign, so no bracers of armor, or wizards, monsters(we'll be fighting other humans exclusively), etc. He also by converting weapon spec and greater weapon spec to +1 to atk bonus, and then +2(replaced previous) to atk bonus that stacked with weapon focus.

My main concern, as I'm playing a fighter, is that I'll get to higher level and I will be unable to hit anything, and vice versa. Would this be a valid concern or do you think that it will stay balanced.

I'm looking for feedback, and possible problems thatI can bring to his attention that neither he, nor I, noticed.

Thanks.

war is peace

Actually, while I am very much on the 'complete idiot' line of thought, I'd like some more information here ... what, precisely, doesn't he like about the way combat works? Knowing what he finds so unbalanced/bothersome would go a long way towards coming up with advice and counterarguments.

Of course, if his only statement is 'I just don't', then drop him like a rabid ferret.
Ryu Katsuragi
10-22-06, 11:32 PM 1) Instead of Fighter20, let's look at a Fighter4/Barbarian16. Since you're using noncore for the Halfling, we'll go noncore for the Fighter. You get MWM and Greater Rage. You also have +5 strength from levels, but since we don't have magic and are assuming a starting 18, we'll make that a +4, the other +1 going somewhere else.

So your strength ends up at 18+4(levels)+6(rage)=28. +9. +4 from your feats, +13. +5 from BAB, +18. +1 from Masterwork, +19. vs AC29 is 50%

But wait! Shield Specialization doesn't work with Tower Shields! So the Halfling loses 1 AC (assuming he keeps the Tower Shield, as that's still 4 AC vs 3 AC), so it's +19 vs AC28. Get rid of the noncore feats and it's +16 vs AC27.

Ahh. Thanks for pointing this out. ^^ Forgot a few things which have been mentioned on this board.

AC28
Ranks in Tumble 5, +6AC when fighting defensively (I think it is), which I think stacks with Combat Expertise.
AC34. ^^' Dodge, against that Fighter/Barbarian, +1.
AC35.
Necropolitan
10-22-06, 11:52 PM Of course, if his only statement is 'I just don't', then drop him like a rabid ferret.

So... screaming like a psychopath and flailing around arterial bleeding?
Salla
10-22-06, 11:54 PM So... screaming like a psychopath and flailing around arterial bleeding?

B.I.N.G.O.
Necropolitan
10-22-06, 11:58 PM B.I.N.G.O.

Sounds like a bad prom date.
Iry
10-23-06, 01:52 AM Did he nerf rangers? Because if he didn't, then Rangers just got a whole heck of a lot juicier with Favored Enemy (Human)
slaveryISfreedom
10-23-06, 02:17 AM ...I'd like some more information here ... what, precisely, doesn't he like about the way combat works? Knowing what he finds so unbalanced/bothersome would go a long way towards coming up with advice and counterarguments.

The reasoning behind this is because in previous games that he and i have played together, we had a dm that focused on combat... like 4.5 hours of combat out of every 5 hours of play, and that last .5 hour was finding out xp and begging for more...(it was hard not to shoot ourselves in the head, and yea we gave him alot of grief but he hasn't and won't change). anyway what we both noticed was that around levels 4-12? dnd combat is at its most balanced. at least thats what we saw when playing the aforementioned campaign. so he figured if he stunts the growth to around where it was in those levels then we might be able to play the whole game in a more balanced set.

oh also he wanted his players to focus more on maneuvers/stances/counters/grapple/trip/etc than straight up attacks.

I hope that answered your question.

Did he nerf rangers? Because if he didn't, then Rangers just got a whole heck of a lot juicier with Favored Enemy (Human)

Nope, rangers are still the same.. and yeah favored enemy human ... hehe

aside from that, I was talking with him, and filtering out your "he's an idiot" response and just telling him the valid points you guys brought up. It sounds like hes going to flip it back to normal bab.

thanks for your responses.:)
Ryu Katsuragi
10-23-06, 02:27 AM dnd combat is at its most balanced. at least thats what we saw when playing the aforementioned campaign. so he figured if he stunts the growth to around where it was in those levels then we might be able to play the whole game in a more balanced set.

oh also he wanted his players to focus more on maneuvers/stances/counters/grapple/trip/etc than straight up attacks.

Then it completely unbalances itself, and becomes extremely boring. Could you imagine repeatedly hacking at, and only hitting with one attack a turn at (25%) chance to hit?

Not to mention, as your levels improve, so does your HP. So much having fun trying to wittle down a 180HP opponent with a 2d6+6 greatsword which barely hits.

Also, he wants to focus on grapples? That's based on BAB, so soon, people'll either give up because they can't win, or the fight will just be 'I grapple, maintain grapple, auto-damage, grapple'
slaveryISfreedom
10-23-06, 02:43 AM Then it completely unbalances itself, and becomes extremely boring. Could you imagine repeatedly hacking at, and only hitting with one attack a turn at (25%) chance to hit?

Not to mention, as your levels improve, so does your HP. So much having fun trying to wittle down a 180HP opponent with a 2d6+6 greatsword which barely hits.

Also, he wants to focus on grapples? That's based on BAB, so soon, people'll either give up because they can't win, or the fight will just be 'I grapple, maintain grapple, auto-damage, grapple'

nod both good points
SunTzuWarmaster
10-23-06, 01:51 PM Another point:

He wants you to focus on Sunder+Grapple+Trip+Bull Rush?
Ask him why you can't take Combat Brute (Sundering most notable) and Shock Trooper (Bull Rushing most notable), seeing as they require a BAB of +6 :weep:
narukagami
10-23-06, 03:00 PM The reasoning behind this is because in previous games that he and i have played together, we had a dm that focused on combat... like 4.5 hours of combat out of every 5 hours of play, and that last .5 hour was finding out xp and begging for more. So to fix this he changed the system so that one, single combat will last 4.5 hours of a 5 hour session?

I still stand by my "complete idiot" stance. Even if it was accidental idiocy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
slaveryISfreedom 10-22-06, 03:14 PM	Hi all, Some background; my DM decided that he didnt quite like the way dnd combat rules worked so he tweaked some things. The biggest tweak, imo, is the capping of BAB at 5 (at 20) for full bab classes, BAB+3 for rogues and such, and +2 for wizy's. He justified this by removing ALL magic from the campaign, so no bracers of armor, or wizards, monsters(we'll be fighting other humans exclusively), etc. He also by converting weapon spec and greater weapon spec to +1 to atk bonus, and then +2(replaced previous) to atk bonus that stacked with weapon focus. My main concern, as I'm playing a fighter, is that I'll get to higher level and I will be unable to hit anything, and vice versa. Would this be a valid concern or do you think that it will stay balanced. I'm looking for feedback, and possible problems thatI can bring to his attention that neither he, nor I, noticed. Thanks. war is peace
narukagami 10-22-06, 03:31 PM	Just play a fighter in fullplate with a tower shield, fight defensivly, and don't worry about hitting anything because you're just trying to prove a point. Your DM should slowly realize he's a complete idiot.
Dalthbar 10-22-06, 03:51 PM	I agree with the "complete idiot" opinion. Have fun against high natural armor enemies. Have fun against high-dex enemies. Have fun against enemies in full plate w/ large shields. Have fun against teenie tiny things (that also will likely have high dexes). Not all high ACs are magic-based.
slaveryISfreedom 10-22-06, 03:55 PM	hmm, I was planning on going with a short sword, and a small shield (as its a light weapon for bashing). I don't really want to make a char just so I could be weak, and prove that the rules suck. Mainly for 2 reasons, this DM is a good friend of mine (who's trying to do the best he can), and I've already broken a game 'proving a point' to a previous dm who ticked me off by ignoring the rules and creating a no plot/diablo/fight club type game. He's not really that much of an idiot, but in previous games he's noticed that DND seems to be the most balanced at around levels 4-8 and so I think he's just trying to widen that level range.
Dalthbar 10-22-06, 03:58 PM	Oh - and congratulate your DM on totally cutting the balls off of Power Attack and the host of feats that modify it. In addition to that, weakening every feat that doesn't "use" PA but has it as a pre-req. Woot!
slaveryISfreedom 10-22-06, 04:26 PM	I agree with the "complete idiot" opinion. Have fun against high natural armor enemies. Have fun against high-dex enemies. Have fun against enemies in full plate w/ large shields. Have fun against teenie tiny things (that also will likely have high dexes). Not all high ACs are magic-based. true but, mostly we'll be fighting other humans. so high nat armor won't be an issue. besides if you have a tower shield and full plate and 14 dex how high can your ac get? 27? I'll bring up that point for PA being nearly worthless. Any other things I can bring to his attention?
Archangel62 10-22-06, 04:38 PM	let's not forget feats with a BaB requirement. The biggest issue I can see here is that from now on the best strategy is simply to use alchemical items to destroy your foes. Plus, after a certain point no one can hit anyone else, especially with a few other powers.
Ryu Katsuragi 10-22-06, 04:43 PM	Lets see... Halfling +1AC Dex 16 +3AC Mithril full plate +9AC Tower Shield +4AC Shield Specialization (assuming some non-core) +1AC Heavy Armour Optimization +1AC (I think the feat was) 29AC. In your DM's system, that means... 20th level Human Fighter = BAB+5. Strength 18 (+4). Masterwork Longsword (+1). Greater Weapon Focus (+2). Greater Weapon Specialization (+2) (If I understood the houseruling correctly) So, against this opponent, the best human warrior could do is a 25% chance to hit. This is just a human. Not to mention, this now makes characters like Monks (who depend on Bracers of Armour, Wisdom and Dexterity enhancements) unplayable (best you can get is AC18.) I can't wait till you start fighting Ogres.
Azzy 10-22-06, 04:50 PM	You might want to ask your DM, "Why play D&D at this point when there are quite a few other games out there that already do the no-magic thing without having to rewrite the game?" Heck, there's the D20 Past (http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Products/?doc=177400000) supplement for D20 Modern (http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Products/?doc=881900000). Or, if you want something free, there's Fuzion (http://www.talsorian.com/software/fuzion.pdf), Action System (http://www.goldrushgames.com/files/ActionCoreFree.pdf) and GURPS Lite (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG31-0004).
Dalthbar 10-22-06, 04:51 PM	Oh - defending weapons are totally fubar'ed as well.
jaelis 10-22-06, 04:56 PM	Just play a spell caster. Oh, I didn't see, there's no casters. Well OK. You're just not playing dnd. I guess if your DM is a competent game designer, it could still work out. But it sounds like a lot of work, and kind of a cheat if you signed on to play dnd.
Ogre4Hire 10-22-06, 05:46 PM	Lets see... Halfling +1AC Dex 16 +3AC Mithril full plate +9AC Tower Shield +4AC Shield Specialization (assuming some non-core) +1AC Heavy Armour Optimization +1AC (I think the feat was) 29AC. You forgot Combat Expertise. 33 AC (Full Plate is a +8 armor bonus)
DracoPhoenix 10-22-06, 05:57 PM	Buy him a copy of dnd modern, and black out all the bits relating to guns. that should achieve what he's after. :) (half serious suggestion) [edit:] unless theres a dnd medievil... is there?
Vanigo 10-22-06, 06:06 PM	Buy him a copy of dnd modern, and black out all the bits relating to guns. that should achieve what he's after. :) (half serious suggestion) [edit:] unless theres a dnd medievil... is there?I'm pretty sure there's a d20 Past.
Ryu Katsuragi 10-22-06, 06:36 PM	I'm pretty sure there's a d20 Past. There is, but as I remember, it doesn't relate to the Dark Ages. It starts from about the Age of Discovery, through to World War II or something. -Hasn't read in awhile-
RayOMan 10-22-06, 06:48 PM	Have fun against high natural armor enemies. Have fun against enemies in full plate w/ large shields. Splash weapons. You just need to hit the square or line intersection close to the person and I believe the AC for that is 10. Improved Grapple. Touch attacks negate all of this crap. Have fun against high-dex enemies. Have fun against teenie tiny things (that also will likely have high dexes). Improved Feint+High Bluff. Negate their Dex bonus and hit them all in the same round.
Johannixx 10-22-06, 07:22 PM	Just play a fighter in fullplate with a tower shield, fight defensivly, and don't worry about hitting anything because you're just trying to prove a point. Your DM should slowly realize he's a complete idiot. Yep. No spells that require touch attacks, so you won't get as much penalty for being a lumbering tank. Load up on full plate, get a big shield, fight defensively, use Combat Expertise, and you will be invulnerable.
draconic_swine 10-22-06, 07:27 PM	Splash weapons. You just need to hit the square or line intersection close to the person and I believe the AC for that is 10. True, but the splash weapons in the PHB only deal 1 point of damage unless it's a direct hit. That's a lot of splash weapons needed to kill something.
Ogre4Hire 10-22-06, 08:17 PM	Well, it's not like you'll be saving up for some big expensive magic it, is it?
draconic_swine 10-22-06, 09:57 PM	That's also true, but if it's a low-powered campaign fighting mostly human foes, I also doubt they're gonna be encountering hoards of treasure. Besides, how boring would that be? There'll be no iterative attacks, so combat with splash items would end up being everyone just standing there, throwing a single flask per round unless they've taken a feat (which, by the way, would be pretty much required as everyone would end up taking to increase their output). Woo! There wouldn't even be much movement - so what if I lob a flask of acid and move away? You can just move after me and end up the same distance away. Nothing's changed. No, splash weapons would be a bad idea.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-22-06, 10:01 PM	Also keep in mind that this means that no one will ever get more than one attack, unless you use TWF.
narukagami 10-22-06, 10:43 PM	There'll be no iterative attacks, so combat with splash items would end up being everyone just standing there, throwing a single flask per round unless they've taken a feat (which, by the way, would be pretty much required as everyone would end up taking to increase their output). Woo! There wouldn't even be much movement - so what if I lob a flask of acid and move away? You can just move after me and end up the same distance away. Nothing's changed. So in the end, the DM in question has turned D&D into a crappy Final Fantasy tabletop game. :rolleyes: DM: "You see some enemies, now everyone get in a line and take turns trying to hit your opponents. Nevermind the fact you're heros of epic proportions or anything. Wait, nevermind, you're not really heros of epic proportions at all, because I decided it was somehow a good idea to take away your ability to hit the broadside of a barn." There is nothing wrong with changing the way combat works to improve things. Take a look at the OGL Conan rules. But he definatly did not, beyond the shadow of a doubt, improve anything, in the least.
Archangel62 10-22-06, 10:44 PM	Aside from THAT problem if he really wanted to do this he needs to switch over to armor as DR. Either way the fights are gonna drag on but at least this time the game won't break down into 'I can't hit anything, nothing can hit me, what's the point.'
PhaedrusXY 10-22-06, 11:11 PM	This is ridiculous. Buy him a copy of Unearthed Arcana. There are some reasonably balanced rules modifications in there that change the way armor works, etc. Heck, he can even look at the stuff online (http://www.d20srd.org/) until he gets a copy of the book, since it is OGL (It is in the Variant Rules section).
Seerow 10-22-06, 11:18 PM	Halfling +1AC Dex 16 +3AC Mithril full plate +9AC Tower Shield +4AC Shield Specialization (assuming some non-core) +1AC Heavy Armour Optimization +1AC (I think the feat was) 29AC. In your DM's system, that means... 20th level Human Fighter = BAB+5. Strength 18 (+4). Masterwork Longsword (+1). Greater Weapon Focus (+2). Greater Weapon Specialization (+2) (If I understood the houseruling correctly) So, against this opponent, the best human warrior could do is a 25% chance to hit. This is just a human. Not to mention, this now makes characters like Monks (who depend on Bracers of Armour, Wisdom and Dexterity enhancements) unplayable (best you can get is AC18.) 1) Instead of Fighter20, let's look at a Fighter4/Barbarian16. Since you're using noncore for the Halfling, we'll go noncore for the Fighter. You get MWM and Greater Rage. You also have +5 strength from levels, but since we don't have magic and are assuming a starting 18, we'll make that a +4, the other +1 going somewhere else. So your strength ends up at 18+4(levels)+6(rage)=28. +9. +4 from your feats, +13. +5 from BAB, +18. +1 from Masterwork, +19. vs AC29 is 50% But wait! Shield Specialization doesn't work with Tower Shields! So the Halfling loses 1 AC (assuming he keeps the Tower Shield, as that's still 4 AC vs 3 AC), so it's +19 vs AC28. Get rid of the noncore feats and it's +16 vs AC27. Any way you spin it, it's 45%-55% chance of hitting As for the monk... Halfling Monk. (since we're assuming high stats) Dex:20 Wis: 17 After levels, it's Dex24, Wis18. 10+7(Dex)+4(wis)+5(Monk)+1(size)=27 AC. Matches your full plate/tower shield just fine.
Omega the Powerfull 10-22-06, 11:24 PM	I've played once with a crazy DM that created new "rules" for D&D. In his conception the characters started at level 1/4 - and the max level was the fifth. He wold us that to be a fifth level character would be almost unbelievable in his world. I didn't like the idea but played anyway. It all started in the basic tavern. I was playing with a rogue, the basic pickpocketing kind of guy. And I've tried to pickpocket a old man in the bar. I did pretty well in the dice and the DM roled a 2, but somehow the guy noticed it. I a world where the 5th is the max level that wouldn't be right. Don't need to say that a major diccussion took place and I never played with again.... Well what I got to say is that if the world live by the same rules OK if not It sucks
Salla 10-22-06, 11:24 PM	Hi all, Some background; my DM decided that he didnt quite like the way dnd combat rules worked so he tweaked some things. The biggest tweak, imo, is the capping of BAB at 5 (at 20) for full bab classes, BAB+3 for rogues and such, and +2 for wizy's. He justified this by removing ALL magic from the campaign, so no bracers of armor, or wizards, monsters(we'll be fighting other humans exclusively), etc. He also by converting weapon spec and greater weapon spec to +1 to atk bonus, and then +2(replaced previous) to atk bonus that stacked with weapon focus. My main concern, as I'm playing a fighter, is that I'll get to higher level and I will be unable to hit anything, and vice versa. Would this be a valid concern or do you think that it will stay balanced. I'm looking for feedback, and possible problems thatI can bring to his attention that neither he, nor I, noticed. Thanks. war is peace Actually, while I am very much on the 'complete idiot' line of thought, I'd like some more information here ... what, precisely, doesn't he like about the way combat works? Knowing what he finds so unbalanced/bothersome would go a long way towards coming up with advice and counterarguments. Of course, if his only statement is 'I just don't', then drop him like a rabid ferret.
Ryu Katsuragi 10-22-06, 11:32 PM	1) Instead of Fighter20, let's look at a Fighter4/Barbarian16. Since you're using noncore for the Halfling, we'll go noncore for the Fighter. You get MWM and Greater Rage. You also have +5 strength from levels, but since we don't have magic and are assuming a starting 18, we'll make that a +4, the other +1 going somewhere else. So your strength ends up at 18+4(levels)+6(rage)=28. +9. +4 from your feats, +13. +5 from BAB, +18. +1 from Masterwork, +19. vs AC29 is 50% But wait! Shield Specialization doesn't work with Tower Shields! So the Halfling loses 1 AC (assuming he keeps the Tower Shield, as that's still 4 AC vs 3 AC), so it's +19 vs AC28. Get rid of the noncore feats and it's +16 vs AC27. Ahh. Thanks for pointing this out. ^^ Forgot a few things which have been mentioned on this board. AC28 Ranks in Tumble 5, +6AC when fighting defensively (I think it is), which I think stacks with Combat Expertise. AC34. ^^' Dodge, against that Fighter/Barbarian, +1. AC35.
Necropolitan 10-22-06, 11:52 PM	Of course, if his only statement is 'I just don't', then drop him like a rabid ferret. So... screaming like a psychopath and flailing around arterial bleeding?
Salla 10-22-06, 11:54 PM	So... screaming like a psychopath and flailing around arterial bleeding? B.I.N.G.O.
Necropolitan 10-22-06, 11:58 PM	B.I.N.G.O. Sounds like a bad prom date.
Iry 10-23-06, 01:52 AM	Did he nerf rangers? Because if he didn't, then Rangers just got a whole heck of a lot juicier with Favored Enemy (Human)
slaveryISfreedom 10-23-06, 02:17 AM	...I'd like some more information here ... what, precisely, doesn't he like about the way combat works? Knowing what he finds so unbalanced/bothersome would go a long way towards coming up with advice and counterarguments. The reasoning behind this is because in previous games that he and i have played together, we had a dm that focused on combat... like 4.5 hours of combat out of every 5 hours of play, and that last .5 hour was finding out xp and begging for more...(it was hard not to shoot ourselves in the head, and yea we gave him alot of grief but he hasn't and won't change). anyway what we both noticed was that around levels 4-12? dnd combat is at its most balanced. at least thats what we saw when playing the aforementioned campaign. so he figured if he stunts the growth to around where it was in those levels then we might be able to play the whole game in a more balanced set. oh also he wanted his players to focus more on maneuvers/stances/counters/grapple/trip/etc than straight up attacks. I hope that answered your question. Did he nerf rangers? Because if he didn't, then Rangers just got a whole heck of a lot juicier with Favored Enemy (Human) Nope, rangers are still the same.. and yeah favored enemy human ... hehe aside from that, I was talking with him, and filtering out your "he's an idiot" response and just telling him the valid points you guys brought up. It sounds like hes going to flip it back to normal bab. thanks for your responses.:)
Ryu Katsuragi 10-23-06, 02:27 AM	dnd combat is at its most balanced. at least thats what we saw when playing the aforementioned campaign. so he figured if he stunts the growth to around where it was in those levels then we might be able to play the whole game in a more balanced set. oh also he wanted his players to focus more on maneuvers/stances/counters/grapple/trip/etc than straight up attacks. Then it completely unbalances itself, and becomes extremely boring. Could you imagine repeatedly hacking at, and only hitting with one attack a turn at (25%) chance to hit? Not to mention, as your levels improve, so does your HP. So much having fun trying to wittle down a 180HP opponent with a 2d6+6 greatsword which barely hits. Also, he wants to focus on grapples? That's based on BAB, so soon, people'll either give up because they can't win, or the fight will just be 'I grapple, maintain grapple, auto-damage, grapple'
slaveryISfreedom 10-23-06, 02:43 AM	Then it completely unbalances itself, and becomes extremely boring. Could you imagine repeatedly hacking at, and only hitting with one attack a turn at (25%) chance to hit? Not to mention, as your levels improve, so does your HP. So much having fun trying to wittle down a 180HP opponent with a 2d6+6 greatsword which barely hits. Also, he wants to focus on grapples? That's based on BAB, so soon, people'll either give up because they can't win, or the fight will just be 'I grapple, maintain grapple, auto-damage, grapple' nod both good points
SunTzuWarmaster 10-23-06, 01:51 PM	Another point: He wants you to focus on Sunder+Grapple+Trip+Bull Rush? Ask him why you can't take Combat Brute (Sundering most notable) and Shock Trooper (Bull Rushing most notable), seeing as they require a BAB of +6 :weep:
narukagami 10-23-06, 03:00 PM	The reasoning behind this is because in previous games that he and i have played together, we had a dm that focused on combat... like 4.5 hours of combat out of every 5 hours of play, and that last .5 hour was finding out xp and begging for more. So to fix this he changed the system so that one, single combat will last 4.5 hours of a 5 hour session? I still stand by my "complete idiot" stance. Even if it was accidental idiocy.