Post/Author/DateTime	Post
masterofmayhem 12-23-05, 01:07 AM	Mobs are (can be) good grapplers. But looking at the mob template, there seems to be no way for a mob to grapple, unless some idiot starts the grapple themselves (difficult, since you automatically fail to start a grapple with a creature two or more size categories larger than you). Actually, under Mob traits, it says that a mob cannot be grappled. So what the heck, man? Do mobs even have the option of grappling someone? If so, how? If not, why give them the "Expert Grappler" ability? And what about bullrushing and overruning? Why do mobs get these feats if they cannot do either? Also, mobs cannot make attacks of opportunity, right? Even if said mob is composed of axe wielding psychopaths, whose only goal in life is to slice things to bits? And what happens if a mob of undead is (partially) turned? Or, heaven forbid, the whole thing is somehow turned? Does the two negative levels thing come into play for each undead turned? And on the topic of negative levels, why does a mob take 2 negative levels for each individual creature incapacitated when there are forty-eight creatures, not fifteen? Oh, and one more thing. Can multiple mobs be in the same square, so that a character takes 10d6 damage, or even more? Would mobs take other mobs' damage? And on a non-mechanic issue to those who have used mobs before, did you find the mob to be a good encounter for your PCs?
Vahenir 12-23-05, 04:03 AM	I'll preface this by saying that I haven't read the Mob rules, since I don't yet own the DMGII, but I've heard something about it. Also, mobs cannot make attacks of opportunity, right? Even if said mob is composed of axe wielding psychopaths, whose only goal in life is to slice things to bits? What does the mental condition or preferred weapon of a mob have to do with its ability to take advantage of attacks of opportunity? The concept -- a snap decision and reflexive movement to attack, or the ability to use tactical skill to press an attack against a retreating foe, does seem rather antithetical to 'mob mentality.' I can fully understand why a mob wouldn't be able to take advantage of these rules. And what happens if a mob of undead is (partially) turned? Or, heaven forbid, the whole thing is somehow turned? Does the two negative levels thing come into play for each undead turned? Without having read the rules... well.. what does the description say? I would -imagine- that a mob is treated as a single creature for purposes of things like spells. That would mean you either turn the whole mob, or none of the mob. Not sure if something in the DMGII directly contradicts my opinion -- but it seems likely. I know there are swarm and similar types of rules in 3rd party products which clearly indicate that a 'swarm' or 'mob' or other type of group counts as a single creature for such purposes. And on the topic of negative levels, why does a mob take 2 negative levels for each individual creature incapacitated when there are forty-eight creatures, not fifteen? It may have something to do with a mob ceasing to be a mob once it's reduced to a certain amount of creatures, and is essentially then 'destroyed?' Oh, and one more thing. Can multiple mobs be in the same square, so that a character takes 10d6 damage, or even more? Would mobs take other mobs' damage? Without a special ability that says so.. I would assume not, since that type of scenario isn't possible within the normal rules (no creature can occupy the same square as another creature). And on a non-mechanic issue to those who have used mobs before, did you find the mob to be a good encounter for your PCs? I can say that when I first heard about the Mob rules I immediately thought it was a great idea for the types of campaigns I run and I'm definitely looking forward to trying them out (so I'll have to keep an eye on this thread to see what is said by those with more knowledge on the subject). Like I said.. this post could be entirely irrelevant or wrong, as I don't have the book. But I figured I'd throw out my assumptions and see what comes of it.
Lord Schpungus 12-23-05, 08:11 AM	I've read through the mob section, and I'd say you're pretty square on. I've used them in my game, and they're scary. Players don't take a bunch of commoners seriously, until they start getting seriously beaten. But if you know they're coming, you can plan tactics for them to be a cakewalk. Melee is not so good an idea, but ranged and spells work great.
masterofmayhem 12-23-05, 01:16 PM	What does the mental condition or preferred weapon of a mob have to do with its ability to take advantage of attacks of opportunity? The concept -- a snap decision and reflexive movement to attack, or the ability to use tactical skill to press an attack against a retreating foe, does seem rather antithetical to 'mob mentality.' I can fully understand why a mob wouldn't be able to take advantage of these rules. OK, yeah, that makes perfect sense. I was just trying to wrap my head around precisely why a mob couldn't make an attack of opportunity, even if a creature is wading through said mob. Without having read the rules... well.. what does the description say? I would -imagine- that a mob is treated as a single creature for purposes of things like spells. That would mean you either turn the whole mob, or none of the mob. Well, mobs are mostly like swarm, except for in a few respects. One of them is that individual creatures within a mob can be targeted. Any individual that is slain, knocked unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated gives a mob two negative levels. Using that rule makes a mob of skeletons pretty much useless, however. The 15th level cleric in my campaign can literally destroy two mobs with a single turn attempt. I don't want to nerf the cleric's abilities, but since undead are really one of the only options I have in the Tomb that has not been Opened in Ten Thousand Years . . . I just wanted to make sure that turning would affect a mob like I think it would (like I'm afraid it would ;)). It may have something to do with a mob ceasing to be a mob once it's reduced to a certain amount of creatures, and is essentially then 'destroyed?' Yeah, that does make a modicum of sense. A mob, like a swarm, breaks up when a certain percentage of the creatures have been incapacitated, which is determined by its hit dice. But with the "each dead creature gives a mob two negative levels" rule, killing 15 of the 48 creatures in a mob causes the mob to break up outright. And that's not even counting damage from, say, the fighter in my campaign that does around 200 damage with a full attack. Without a special ability that says so.. I would assume not, since that type of scenario isn't possible within the normal rules (no creature can occupy the same square as another creature). It functions just like a swarm in this respect. Could two swarms occupy the same square? But more than one creature can definitely occupy a single square. After all, that's the only way a swarm or mob can attack. But there is, of course, exceptions such as entering the square of a creature three or more size categories larger than you, being grappled, using the giantbane tactical feat from the Complete Warrior, and so on. I can say that when I first heard about the Mob rules I immediately thought it was a great idea for the types of campaigns I run and I'm definitely looking forward to trying them out (so I'll have to keep an eye on this thread to see what is said by those with more knowledge on the subject). Oh, yeah, I love the idea. The image of commoners beating up on the PCs is such a beautiful one . . . But I'm more concerned about how it works, and whether or not it will be too easy/too difficult for my players, heh. I've read through the mob section, and I'd say you're pretty square on. I've used them in my game, and they're scary. Players don't take a bunch of commoners seriously, until they start getting seriously beaten. But if you know they're coming, you can plan tactics for them to be a cakewalk. Melee is not so good an idea, but ranged and spells work great. OK, so you've used mobs before? What are the grappling rules with regards to mobs? Are they allowed to start a grapple? I am really unsure about that. For one, I think I am seeing this creature not as a single creature, but as a bunch of creatures which could pile onto a PC, which is incorrect from a mechanics point of view, as a mob is only a single creature. And, yet, mobs have not only a listed grapple modifier, but they also have Expert Grappler, as well as improved bull rush and overrun . . . None of which can be used if the mob cannot make normal attacks, and is instead relegated to using only its mob attack. :confused:
Vahenir 12-23-05, 05:50 PM	Well, mobs are mostly like swarm, except for in a few respects. One of them is that individual creatures within a mob can be targeted. Any individual that is slain, knocked unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated gives a mob two negative levels. If that's the case, I would be inclined to treat them as a swarm -except- where this extra rule of targetting specific creatures comes into play. That would mean spells target the entire group as if it were one creature. It's not perfect, but I can't really say it's surprising that a 15th level cleric has no problem against a mob of petty undead. As a matter of fact, that seems thematically appropriate to me. If you want to change that, can't you just use more powerful creatures to make up the Mob? Using that rule makes a mob of skeletons pretty much useless, however. The 15th level cleric in my campaign can literally destroy two mobs with a single turn attempt. I don't want to nerf the cleric's abilities, but since undead are really one of the only options I have in the Tomb that has not been Opened in Ten Thousand Years . . . I wouldn't say "useless." I doubt there's a rule stating that the dissolution of the Mob immediately incapacitates ALL of its parts. Meaning, surviving skeletons could still attack on their own. They're just no longer part of a 'mob.' And, as above, is it not possible to advance the mob to be more powerful or larger? I would imagine, even if there isn't a printed guideline for it, a decent DM could cook up the necessary changes pretty quickly. Could two swarms occupy the same square? I don't believe so. But more than one creature can definitely occupy a single square. After all, that's the only way a swarm or mob can attack. But there is, of course, exceptions such as entering the square of a creature three or more size categories larger than you, being grappled, using the giantbane tactical feat from the Complete Warrior, and so on. True. But these are all special rules with special circumstances, none of which seem to apply to two mobs converging, and since there are no rules in the DMGII for combining mobs, I would say they cannot occupy the same space. However, that doesn't mean you can't cook up a -larger- mob than the rules presented in the DMGII account for.
masterofmayhem 12-23-05, 06:05 PM	If that's the case, I would be inclined to treat them as a swarm -except- where this extra rule of targetting specific creatures comes into play. That would mean spells target the entire group as if it were one creature. It's not perfect, but I can't really say it's surprising that a 15th level cleric has no problem against a mob of petty undead. As a matter of fact, that seems thematically appropriate to me. If you want to change that, can't you just use more powerful creatures to make up the Mob? Well, mobs themselves cannot be advanced. It's a new idea, and the kinks will likely be worked out later, but the way the CR works is simple. If the creatures that comprise the mob are CR 6 or less, than the mob is a CR 8. If the creatures are a CR 7 or more, adding the mob template increases the CR by 2. This leaves some cheesy loopholes, however, and I am ashamed to admit that I have decided to use one of them. I was going to have the skeletons inside have 5 HD. This means that a turning attempt from the cleric would only do 6-8 negative levels of damage, but this does not increase the mob's CR at all, which I find quite bothersome and rathe runrealistic. I wouldn't say "useless." I doubt there's a rule stating that the dissolution of the Mob immediately incapacitates ALL of its parts. Meaning, surviving skeletons could still attack on their own. They're just no longer part of a 'mob.' Yeah, that is something I had considered. But suddenly throwing in more creatures once the PCs have defeated the mob(s) would increase the EL of the encouter, making it not only more dangerous, but increasing the amount of experience they would be receiving drastically. As much sense as it makes, I was just planning on glossing over the fact that some of the skeletons would still be alive. On the other hand, it might make sense to have the remaining skeletons join the mobs that are still alive . . . this could be represented as a kind of "healing" for all the remaining, nearby, mobs. What do you think? However, that doesn't mean you can't cook up a -larger- mob than the rules presented in the DMGII account for. Well, the template, being a template, not a creature, does not allow that. In fact, the DMGII specifically says that larger mobs are simply more than one mob together, and I have no idea how I would go about making a larger mob, since the concept is rather new to me As a side note, the encounter I have planned is detailed here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=557812).