Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Silverblade The Enchanter 09-24-06, 01:16 PM	this has been bugging me for ages, in the DMG, page 216, table 7-3, a roll of 61 or higher gives FULL PLATE, ye tfull plate should be the rarest type of armour in a game and there are NO ROBES! There's no reason why robes can't have all the armour enhancements mentioned, it's illogical. Who makes magic items? arcane casters and divine casters. So why wouldn't wizards make +3 robes of Fire resistance, etc? IMHO, table 7-3 needs changed so that other amrour types are far more common (padded/leather/scale/chain/banded are way too rare), and there's a 30% or so chance for robe as the armour type. Logical? :)
Dalthbar 09-24-06, 01:29 PM	Robes aren't armor. That's why they're not listed in the armor table. Ask yourself this - if you didn't enchant a robe, what armor bonus would it give? The answer is "zero" - which is why it's not armor. Since they're not armor, they can't take armor enchantments. That's really the long and short of it.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-24-06, 03:58 PM	Too bad that answer doesn't make sense. Robes of the Archmagi give... Armor bonuses, that's right. I've always allowed robes to be enchanted as armor, but with Craft Wondrous Item. My players rarely take me up on the offer, though, since most mages realise that +1 - +5 AC at the levels you can get the bonuses is pretty lame. The special powers, though, make it better. I've made myself some Robes +1, Soulfire in a few campaigns.
Yaeri 09-24-06, 05:09 PM	Normal robes don't give a bonus to armour. so I too find they shouldn't be in the list of armours. However, I see them as giving an armour bonus that is negligable, and to me they fit the "armour slot". So I see no problem in being able to enchant a robe as if it were armour. A +5 robe would cost as much as bracers of armour +5, so I don't really see a balance problem, aside from that a padded armour (which is closest to the robes) would give a wizard a 5% spell failure chance.
Garonak 09-24-06, 06:52 PM	You could of course just give your wizard/sorcerer a mithral twilight shirt. Mithral lowers asf with 10% and so does Twilight (phb2 and Exalted deeds). I always alow robes to be fitted with armor properties. The price of the robe itself I usually put at ca 200. Prices for the abilities is the same as for a normal armor imo. I also allow for magic armor properties on bracers, but that's another story.
Krevon 09-24-06, 06:57 PM	Monk robes +5 with the heavy fortification ability shadow, slick element resistance....wow
Juzzman 09-24-06, 07:35 PM	Too bad that answer doesn't make sense. Robes of the Archmagi give... Armor bonuses, that's right. Bracers of armor give... Armor bonuses, that's right. As pointed out by other posters, without enchantments the items give no armor bonuses, so they are not 'armor', any more than a cocktail dress is armor. They are items of apparel that have been enchanted to protect the wearer. The chest slot is not exclusively for armor, it can be used for clothing, including clothing that has been enchanted, such as magical robes, vest of resistance and so fourth. This is why robes are not on the Armor table, and therefore the magical armor table. But there is no reason why you cannot create your own magical armor table, and even add to it every item that has or possibly could have an armor enchantment. It would probably be a very large table, with some duplication on the wonderous items table. It is also my understanding that armor/shield enchantments are just that, and so cannot be applied to something that is not armor/shield. I believe that it would be overly unbalanced to houserule the ability to put armor enchantments on robes, because it bypasses the whole spell failure mechanic, as well as giving normal mages access to enchantments that they wouldnt normaly get without reasonable inconvinience. While the +1 to +5 can be simulated by oither equipment, when you start adding other abilities balance fails. Shudders at the thought of the Plus one feathered, magic eating, acidic robes with the spikes +5 Defending fortunate last resort. :-) I hope that answers the OP's question. There are reasons for the absence, but he's the dm, so he can houserule if desired. Juz
Loki5654 09-24-06, 07:43 PM	Armor enchantments can only be applied to Masterwork Armors. Only Armor, Shields, and Weapons can be Masterworked. Robes do not appear on the Armor list. Therefore, Robes cannot be Masterworked. Therefore, Robes cannot be enchanted as Armor. Its the same logic used to show that a Monks fists cannot be enchanted as weapons.
Silverblade The Enchanter 09-24-06, 08:00 PM	To the nay sayers: yes, explain the robes of the Archmagi and the like then? ;) master work is merely extremely fine crafted, you can get very finely craftyed robes you know. Robes ARE armour, they just don't stop much damage beyond light chaffing ;) Unless of course, they were enchanted... Bracers of Armour give an ARMOUR bonus not an ENHANCEMENT bonus, big difference!
Seraphine_Harmonium 09-24-06, 08:12 PM	Magic items like bracers of armor give armor bonus because they are enchanted with the Mage Armor Spell. This allows a non-armor item to give an armor bonus. Robes are not armor. However, I see no reason why you could not house-rule a robe that functions exactly as bracers of armor do. I would be very wary of letting the two stack however. Actually, since it's the same effect, just from two different sources both using the same spell, they cannot stack.
Juzzman 09-24-06, 08:18 PM	Bracers of Armour give an ARMOUR bonus not an ENHANCEMENT bonus, big difference! Using the pHB, Bracers of armor are a wonderous item that give an Armor bonus to ac, and robes of the Magi are a wonderous item that amongst other things give an armor bonus to ac. (The robes give an enhancement bonus to caster level checks, maybe that is where the confusion is?) So robes of the archmagi and such are clothing/jewelery/apparel that have a magical ability embued into them that gives an AC bonus. They are not of themsleves armor, but the magically provide an effect that is equivalent. If the magic fades, they no longer provide an armor bonus. I dont know how to make it much clearer. At the end of the day, We are only providing you with the answer to your question. If you dont like it, then you are free to class the robe as armor, with all the joys and perils that entails :-) Juz
Seraphine_Harmonium 09-24-06, 08:41 PM	Actually, there has already been a thread about why robes are not armor. The argument basically ended with the ruling that robes and other articles of clothing are not armor because if they were, monks could only use their abilities while buck naked. If a robe is armor, then a monk cannot wear monk's robes.
Bulletproof_Condom 09-24-06, 08:49 PM	This has been bugging me for ages; in the DMG, page 216, table 7-3, a roll of 61 or higher gives FULL PLATE, yet full plate should be the rarest type of armour in a game and there are NO ROBES!Full plate is only rare at low levels when no one can afford it. Once your backup weapon becomes more expensive than your hometown, full plate gets pretty common (unless you're in a party full of casters and finesse fighters). Also, just because robes occupy the same magic item slot as a suit of armor doesn't mean they are armor. Robes are wondrous items; they have a different price schedule, different abilities, and require Craft Wondrous Item (rather than Craft Magic Arms and Armor) to create. If you want a robe that has an armor bonus and no other abilities, that would be bracers of armor (another wondrous item) crafted to fill a different slot. Most DMs that understand the system will allow it.
Loki5654 09-24-06, 08:52 PM	To the nay sayers: yes, explain the robes of the Archmagi and the like then? ;) They are Robes with a built in mage armor effect. It is the mage armor effect providing the bonus, not the Robes. master work is merely extremely fine crafted, you can get very finely craftyed robes you know. Masterwork has a distinct in-game definition. Just because something is finely crafted does not make it Masterwork. The RAW provides no provisions for Masterwork clothing, you can have them as finely crafted as you want but the rules will never consider them Masterwork. Robes ARE armour, they just don't stop much damage beyond light chaffing ;) Unless of course, they were enchanted... Check your PHB again. There is no "Robes" entry in the Armor section of the Equipment chapter. Shoes and gloves don't appear on that chart either because they are not armor., simple enough? Bracers of Armour give an ARMOUR bonus not an ENHANCEMENT bonus, big difference! A suit of armor with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. So even if Robes of the Archmagi or Bracers of Armor were considered armor, you couldn't add armor enchantments because they don't have an enhancement bonus. In the case of Bracers, the Bracers themselves provide no Armor bonus. The enchantment does. In the case of Full Plate, the armor itself provides the Armor bonus and the enchantments are just enhancing what already exists. Question: If a person were to use permanency on their mage armor, would you allow them to enchant the mage armor as if it were armor? That would be the same thing as you are suggesting.
CradleofLife 09-24-06, 08:55 PM	Simple, because robes aren't armor. I mean let's face it, robes aren't going to protect you from anything. They just don't. Pieces of cloth vs.sword, yea my money's on the sword.
Loki5654 09-24-06, 08:59 PM	Also, just because robes occupy the same magic item slot as a suit of armor doesn't mean they are armor. Robes are wondrous items; they have a different price schedule, different abilities, and require Craft Wondrous Item (rather than Craft Magic Arms and Armor) to create. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. :bow: The very fact that they mention Robes separately on the old slot chart reinforces the fact that they are not armor. If they were armor, they wouldn't need to mention them separately from armor, would they? Hee hee, nekkid monks!
Krevon 09-24-06, 08:59 PM	I do allow them in my game, along with magic tattoos.....its just finding and affording the items and services
FeceMan 09-24-06, 10:03 PM	'Tis a shame that bracers of armor can't be "bracers of armor +8 +5".
Krevon 09-24-06, 10:40 PM	haha....would that be the equivelant to having a blind spot?
scienceman47 09-25-06, 12:50 AM	Its good that robes are not armor. Only monks need robes, every caster picks up the damn twilight crap, so for them, its a blessing. And because robes can tolerate just about any sort of enhancement that a wondrous item can handle(the robe says for associated enhancements "multiple effects", and has had everything under the sun) you can give your monk any number of goodness. Consider slapping a natural armor bonus and a spell like ability three times a day. Or a deflection, and a use of dimension door, or anything like that.
The_One_True_Boris 09-25-06, 01:37 AM	Glamer some twilight armor. Ta-da! The only one who doesn't know you're not wearing a robe is you!
angryman 09-25-06, 01:39 AM	Er, monks can't wear armour, right? So if monks wear a robe, they lose a lot of their monk abilities unless robes are not armour. Monks can wear robes, therefore robes are not armour. Or something.
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-25-06, 11:10 AM	Two things about this thread suprise me. First, no one has suggested making a robe that functions as armor, something like; Reinforced Robes, Light Armor Cost: 300 Gp* Armor: +1 Max Dex: +4 ACP: -1 ASF: 0% Weight: 5lb Crafted from alchemically enhanced silk, reinforced robes are made to acconmidate arcane spellcasters who feel they need a little extra protection. Note: reinforced robes cost 2x to masterwork due to the alchemical crafting process. Considering the AC/Max Dex ratio, no one would buy this except for arcane spellcasters. ------ Secondly, that no one mentioned the A&EG, with it's option rule for bracer's of armor that offer armor; Page 130. True it's not that great an answer, ut it could help. The way it works is aside from the +8 bonus offered by the bracer's, you can add up to an additional +5 worth of special abilities (and I'd guess you can add the straight cost abilities too). Reading it over, it doesn't say whether you could exchange any of the armor bonus for special abilities, but I don't think I'd allow it myself. Hope this helps.
Yaeri 09-25-06, 11:28 AM	The lowest armour option for the wizard in core is padded armour. Now let's look at the differences between enchanted padded armour and a robe used as armour. Both give a +5 armour bonus. +4 padded armour. costs: 16150 arcane spell failure: 5% donning and removing takes a minute. +5 robes costs: 25150 arcane spell failure:0% Donning and removing takes ??? This can easily be ruled to also take a minute and is a negligable factor either way. So what's the main difference? The padded armour gives a 5% arcane spell failure chance. The robes cost an enhancement bonus more. (because padded armour starts at AC1 and robes at AC0). Now I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was some armour enhancement somewhere that gives -5% spell failure or more, for the price of a +1enhancement. It sure doesn't seem overpowered to me. Or are there other balancing factors that I'm missing? PS: On the subject of robes being in the armour tables, I agree that they shouldn't be there, as then everything should be in those tables. A simple hat for example, could also be considered granting a negligable AC bonus.
Silverblade The Enchanter 09-25-06, 12:12 PM	Ok, let's look at this logically: 1) Robes don't have AC, so enhancement bonuses can't work (can't enhance 0). But you can give them a deflection bonus (as per rings of Protection) or an armour bonus (as per Bracers of Armour). 2) There is no damn good logical reason robes can't have resistances, shadow, silent moves, invulnerability (something wizards would love!) and such like effects. Can you see any good reason why a wizard wouldn't make a Robe of Invulnerability and Fire Resistance to give himself DR 5/magic and Fire Resistance 10, if he had the required feats and spells? If he can do that for a suit of armour he can not use, why the heck would he not make robes he can use, than armour he can't? ;)
Kusari_Gamer 09-25-06, 12:50 PM	Ok, let's look at this logically... Rule #1 Never let logic get in the way of munchkinism. :cool:
Silverblade The Enchanter 09-25-06, 01:18 PM	Rule #1 Never let logic get in the way of munchkinism. :cool: Oddly enough I don't liek munchkinism and I hate the way 3.5 often is extolled AS a munchkin's dream...grrr. Again, why would a wizard not make a robe of invulnerability and fire resistance, or other such combination? You can do it for chainmail, plate, but not a costly robe...eh? The random table for armour types is based on game mechanics not logic. Full plate should be very rare, chain shirts, leather/studded leather, breastplates, scalemail should be miles more common, with variations for regional differences that a DM can note. Similarly if you are in a magic rich world like the Realms, magical robes should also be a common form of magical "armour". WhHy would wizards be limited to "robes of archmagi", "robe of eyes" etc and not less expensive, more practical robes like "armour +2, light fortification", "Armour +1,Acid Resistance, Fire Resistance", "Invulnerability" and so on, hm? :)
Yaeri 09-25-06, 02:08 PM	I can see why people would argue against it from a "robes aren't armour" point of view, but Rule #1 Never let logic get in the way of munchkinism. I can't see the munchkinism in having -5% arcane spell failure cost a +1enhancement bonus. (See my previous post for details)
calvinNhobbes 09-25-06, 03:03 PM	I disagree that magic full plate should be much rarer than other armor types. If you were a powerful ruler or hero and commisioned a wizard to make you magic armor, what would you pick? Full plate mail or splint mail? You'd pick the best, right?
Chrono Nexus 09-25-06, 03:14 PM	I disagree that magic full plate should be much rarer than other armor types. If you were a powerful ruler or hero and commisioned a wizard to make you magic armor, what would you pick? Full plate mail or splint mail? You'd pick the best, right? Neither, chain shirt all the way.
Echo_that_Pains 09-25-06, 03:17 PM	Magic items like bracers of armor give armor bonus because they are enchanted with the Mage Armor Spell. This allows a non-armor item to give an armor bonus. Robes are not armor. However, I see no reason why you could not house-rule a robe that functions exactly as bracers of armor do. I would be very wary of letting the two stack however. Actually, since it's the same effect, just from two different sources both using the same spell, they cannot stack. I agree 100% with this. It is my belief that the bracers of armor were intended for characters that did not have armor to wear. It would be really stupid if one were to see a warrior wandering around in +2 fullplate with +2 bracers of armor on. It is a waste of time, money, resources, gear slot, etc to duplicate any effect that will not stack anyway. Casters on the other hand that do not gain any benefit from wearing armor can compensate by wearing the bracers instead and gaining the same effect. Since bracers of armor were probably not intended for fighters/armor wearing people, who else would they be intended for if not the casters?
Garonak 09-25-06, 05:07 PM	1: Yaeri, Twilight armor ability lowers Spellfailure with 10% at the cost of +1. It's in PHB2 (under Duskblade) and in Exalted Deeds. 2: Have any of you guys heard of something called AD&D Second Edition? It's this weird game with elves and magic and dragons and robes with fire resistance, AC bonuses and such. They even made some computer games based on this game of all games, Baldur's Gate (with Adventurer's Robe which gave a +1 bonus AC), Tales of the Sword Coast, Baldur's Gate 2, Throne of Bhaal, Icewind Dale 1, Heart of Winter. Not to mention all those older games which I'm to young to remember. You should be able to give robes magical AC bonuses, whether it's armor bonus, deflection bonus or otherwise. And you should also be able to give robes other magical properties. Someone was nagging about logic. What's logic got to do with anything in DnD? Come on, people don't usually keep to five foot squares when they move around in real life do they? It's magic, it's supposed to do anything you want it to do (as long as you have the right caster level). By the way, I understand ThAC0.:D
Yaeri 09-25-06, 05:20 PM	1: Yaeri, Twilight armor ability lowers Spellfailure with 10% at the cost of +1. It's in PHB2 (under Duskblade) and in Exalted Deeds. Ah voila. Thank you. I knew there had to be something like this. So robes with armor enhancements, cost more than leather armour with the twilight ability, yet give exactly the same benefits. Yet, robes being used as such, (a suboptimal choice) are called munchkinny by some on this thread. A wizard with no armour proficiencies can choose between: a) twilight leather armour (2AC, no ACP, no spell failure) cost: 1150 b) +2 robes (2AC, no ACP, no spell failure) cost: 4150 I see absolute not how option b could be munchkinism. It better fits the flavour of a wizard for an increase in cost. Even if the ones who call it munchkinism would argue that the twilight ability should only give -5% instead of -10% or be overpowered, then the robes and armour still would only be the same price.
Silverblade The Enchanter 09-25-06, 07:06 PM	I disagree that magic full plate should be much rarer than other armor types. If you were a powerful ruler or hero and commisioned a wizard to make you magic armor, what would you pick? Full plate mail or splint mail? You'd pick the best, right? You overlook the fact of CULTURE and technological levels ;) A game world maybe RoOman, Viking, Celtic, Mayan or some other style of culture and technology, therefore, plate mail could simply not exist, be exceedingly rare etc. Another huge factor is...taste and practicality! *winks at Chrono Nexus* he hit that right off...what would the ruller really want? Remember, scale mail was highly prized even when Roman banded armour was much better, because it looked beautiful. That's a fact from real life. So in some cultures, heavy armour would be down right impractical or deadly (on ships, light cavalry, forest, desert etc) You are a desert bedoiun ruler of great power, what would you rather have, +5 full plate of moderate fortification, or +2 Robes of Fire Resistance? Folk need to get out of the idea of "game mechanics means you must get lots of heavy plate!" It depends entirely on the setting, technology, culture, tastes, and who's making all this armour. Why the heck would wizards make expensive armour for everyone but themselves...that simply doens't make sense. They could make Bracers of Armour, or Robes of Armour, as they preffer by tastes and need. garonak *nod* :) And in Dungeons and Dragons Online and Neverwinter Nights you get magic "armour-type" robes, because the developers realized it would screw over arcane casters by not giving them that kind of item in extensive play testing= being gimped, and it's illogical. On the whole it doens't mean arcane casters = uber munchkins, they still have lousy ACs etc etc, it just helps them versus lesser enemies, and arcane attacks, like Fire Resist Robes and so on, plus it's entirely logical. Special robes like Robes of the Magi should be in the same table as armour because they are worn in the same slot as armour thus they ARE armour. :)
Stormonu 09-25-06, 08:12 PM	Why not make a "magical clothing" table, with some overlap of certain magical armor abilities. I don't see a Robe of Armor +5 being any more overpowered than Bracers of Armor +5, and you couldn't use both, because they don't stack. Clothing can be enchanted to provide an armor bonus. The bonuses are armor bonuses, never rise above +5*, and do not stack with regular armor bonuses nor enhancement bonuses from magic armor. * Either modify Bracers of armor not to grant a bonus greater than +5, or rule they are special items that can go up to a +8 armor bonus Table IIA - Clothing Item Base Price +1 clothing 1,000 gp +2 clothing 4,000 gp +3 clothing 9,000 gp +4 clothing 16,000 gp +5 clothing* 25,000 gp +6 clothing* 36,000 gp +7 clothing* 49,000 gp +8 clothing* 64,000 gp +9 clothing* 81,000 gp +10 clothing* 100,000 gp * Item can't actually have bonuses this high. Use these lines to determine prices when special abilities are added in. Magical Clothing does not need to provide an armor bonus to be enmagicked. The table above is provided for those clothing items enmagicked to have an armor bonus. Table IA - Random Clothing Type D100 Roll Clothing Type 01-10 Boots (Feet Slot) 11-25 Bracers (Arm Slot) 26-30 Cape (Cloak Slot) 31-40 Cloak (Cloak Slot) 41-50 Gauntlets (Hands Slot) 51-57 Gloves (Hands Slot) 58-62 Hat (Head Slot) 63-67 Mantle (Cloak Slot) 68-70 Pants (Feet Slot*) 71-75 Robe (Robe Slot) 76-80 Shirt (Chest Slot) 81-87 Shoes (Feet Slot) 88-94 Vest (Chest Slot) 95-98 Specific Clothing 99-00 Special ability and roll again * Or perhaps add a "pants" slot to the character. Table II - Clothing Special Abilities Special Ability Base Price Modifier Fortification, Light +1 bonus** Slick* +3,750 gp Shadow* +3,750 gp Silent Moves* +3,750 gp Spell Resistance (13) +2 bonus Slick, Improved* +15,000 gp Shadow, Improved* +15,000 gp Silent Moves, Improved* +15,000 gp Acid Resistance +18,000 gp Cold Resistance +18,000 gp Electricity Resistance +18,000 gp Fire Resistance +18,000 gp Sonic Resistance +18,000 gp Ghost Touch +3 bonus** Invulnerability +3 bonus** Fortification, Moderate +3 bonus** Spell Resistance (15) +3 bonus Wild +3 bonus** Slick, Greater +33,750 gp Shadow, Greater +33,750 gp Silent Moves, Greater +33,750 gp Acid Resistance, improved +42,000 gp Cold Resistance, improved +42,000 gp Electricity Resistance, imp +42,000 gp Fire Resistance, Improved +42,000 gp Sonic Resistance, Improved +42,000 gp Spell Resistance (17) +3 bonus Etherealness +49,000 gp Undead Controlling +49,000 gp Fortification, Heavy +5 bonus** Spell Resistance (19) +5 bonus Acid Resistance, greater +66,000 gp Cold Resistance, greater +66,000 gp Electricity Resistance, greater +66,000 gp Fire Resistance, greater +66,000 gp Sonic Resistance, greater +66,000 gp * Must be the outmost garment to be effective. Clothing that provides a bonus to a skill does not stack with other types of clothing or armor of the same type. Items with the same energy resistance do not stack; instead, use the item with the greatest resistance ** The item must have at least a +1 armor bonus to have this ability Table III - Specific Clothing Items Item Cost Bracers of Armor +1 to +8 1,000 gp to 64,000 gp Cloak of Resistance +1 to +5 1,000 gp to 25,000 gp Hat of Disguise 1,800 gp Robe of Bones 2,400 gp Boots of Elvinkind 2,500 gp Cloak of Elvinkind 2,500 gp Cloak of Charisma +2 to +6 4,000 gp to 36,000 gp Gauntlets of Ogre Power 4,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +2 to +6 4,000 gp to 36,000 gp Headband of Intellect +2 to +6 4,000 gp to 36,000 gp Slippers of Spider Climbing 4,800 gp Bracers of Archery, Lesser 5,000 gp Vest of Escape 5,200 gp Boots of Springing & Striding 5,500 gp Gloves of Swimming & Climbing 6,250 gp Robe of Useful Items 7,000 gp Cloak of the Manta Ray 7,200 gp Boots of Levitation 7,500 gp Gloves of Storing 10,000 gp Cape of the Monutebank 10,080 gp Guantlet of Rust 11,500 gp Boots of Speed 12,000 gp Belt, Monk's 13,000 gp Cloak of Arachnida 14,000 gp Belt of Dwarvenkind 14,900 gp Belt of Giant Strength +4 to +6 16,000 gp to 36,000 gp Boots, Winged 16,000 gp Cloak of Displacement, minor 24,000 gp Bracers of Archery, greater 25,000 gp Cloak of the Bat 26,000 gp Robe of Scintillating colors 27,000 gp Robe of Blending 30,000 gp Boots of Teleportation 49,000 gp Cloak of Displacement, major 50,000 gp Cloak of Etherealness 55,000 gp Robe of Stars 58,000 gp Robe of the Archmagic 75,000 gp Mantle of Faith 76,000 gp Mantle of Spell Resistance 90,000 gp Robe of Eyes 120,000 gp These would just be the items out of the SRD/DMG. I hope this rather overlong list gives people some ideas for making clothing into its own chart.
Loki5654 09-25-06, 08:21 PM	Why not make a "magical clothing" table, with some overlap of certain magical armor abilities. I don't see a Robe of Armor +5 being any more overpowered than Bracers of Armor +5, and you couldn't use both, because they don't stack. <giant table deleted> These would just be the items out of the SRD/DMG. I hope this rather overlong list gives people some ideas for making clothing into its own chart. But if you're going to start house-ruling, everything and anything is possible. It would be simpler just to say "New House Rule: All clothing is armor!" Sorry Monks.
angryscrub 09-25-06, 08:56 PM	Or perhaps it would just be easiest to say that masterwork robes that add +whatevergp to the cost can be enchanted as armor, even though they're not actually armor? I mean, really, are there people that think monks are so broken that this would just make them too powerful? I can't really figure out what the concern is here. If someone wants to house rule this, can someone give some concrete way this would break game balance?
Millennium 09-25-06, 09:11 PM	Robes do not appear on the Armor list. Therefore, Robes cannot be Masterworked. Actually, you can make masterwork robes. You can make anything masterwork, if you so choose. Kings and high priests would be good candidates for masterwork robes. But masterworking robes doesn't turn them into armor, and therefore they don't get any armor bonus from that. Since masterwork robes are no more armor than ordinary robes, they cannot be enchanted as armor.
calvinNhobbes 09-25-06, 10:25 PM	You overlook the fact of CULTURE and technological levels ;) A game world maybe RoOman, Viking, Celtic, Mayan or some other style of culture and technology, therefore, plate mail could simply not exist, be exceedingly rare etc. Yes, you could come up with all sorts of off the wall reasons to explain anything, but the fact is the core rules are based off a Medieval European culture. If a Medieval Euroepan king wanted to commision armor for him to wear into battle, I'm guessing it won't be hide armor. The DMG treasure are based off this culture and technology. Personally as a DM, I have never used the random DMG tables to determine magic items. I simply provided a possible reason why the DMG treasure tables have a "disproportioned" chance of magic armor being full plate. If you don't like it, come up with your own reason. Like I said I don't use them anyway.
Loki5654 09-25-06, 10:31 PM	Actually, you can make masterwork robes. You can make anything masterwork, if you so choose. Kings and high priests would be good candidates for masterwork robes. No. According to the RAW, only weapons, armor, shields, and some tools can be Masterwork. Anything else is just "finely crafted". Masterwork means "finely crafted" and certain bonuses (e.g. +1 to hit or +2 to a skill check). But masterworking robes doesn't turn them into armor, and therefore they don't get any armor bonus from that. Since masterwork robes are no more armor than ordinary robes, they cannot be enchanted as armor. Agreed. If clothes are armor, so are shoes, gloves, hats, boxer shorts, etc. The line needs to be drawn and it is drawn in the PHB. Only items that appear on the Armor list are actually considered armor.
calvinNhobbes 09-25-06, 10:37 PM	I have never liked the idea of bracers of armor basically obsoleting heavy armor, or the idea of why wearing bracers that provide a magical force around you somehow make the full plate armor pointless. It is for this reason I decided to make magical effects that give AC armor or shield enhancement bonuses and nonmagical effects are armor or shield bonuses. Therefore bracers of armor or mage armor would stack with normal full plate, but not with themselves and only the highest enhancement bonus would be used if magic armor was also worn. Wearing a normal shield and casting a shield spell would give the bonus of both, but if you were using a magic shield the enhancement bonus would not stack with the shield spell.
pmurray@bigpond.com 09-25-06, 11:05 PM	this has been bugging me for ages, in the DMG, page 216, table 7-3, a roll of 61 or higher gives FULL PLATE, ye tfull plate should be the rarest type of armour in a game and there are NO ROBES! 'Cause fighers wouldn't be seen dead in them.
robertliguori 09-25-06, 11:33 PM	They exist. They're light armor with no ASF, and they function as either mithral chain shirts or padded armor with the Feycraft or Githcraft item templates added. Sorry Monks; they're still armor.
scienceman47 09-25-06, 11:41 PM	I honestly don't know how to respond to this thread. Its genuinely making me nauseous. I can't stand it. Robes are not armor. Robes are robes. You do nothing but screw monks out of something to go in the armor/robe slot if you make them anything else. They do not accept enchantments as armor does. They can instead accept any number of effects as a wondrous item would. Thats why they are robes. Only armor, as in real armor, can accept enhancement bonuses. It enhances inherent armor. that.. what... and the. . aodfiuaglkh,n ashfkjlash;lxfm Only things that give non magical armor bonuses are armor. That is all.
tiercel 09-26-06, 12:04 AM	in the DMG, page 216, table 7-3, a roll of 61 or higher gives FULL PLATE, ye tfull plate should be the rarest type of armour in a game...On a tangential issue.... I see at least that the non-optimal armors pretty much have only 1% chance to be masterwork/magic, but my beef comes in with the breastplate. Assuming that not all breastplates are mithral, why would you pick a (non-mithral) breastplate over a chain shirt to make magical? If you are a dwarf with Medium Armor Proficiency but without Heavy Armor Proficiency, then OK -- but is the hit to speed worth +1 AC (assuming your Dex never tops 16, even with enhancement bonuses, and assuming the additional -2 armor check penalty never means anything to you, and assuming that the extra 5 pounds of weight doesn't mean anything to you either)? Yet on the armor table, breastplates are almost as common as chain shirts. Pshaw. For that matter, given that chain shirts are useful to so many different kinds of character builds, it isn't tremendously obvious to me that full plate should be over twice as common as chain shirts. I'd think that they would be more on par (or even that there might be more chain shirts). We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.