dnd dmg pay system vs cost [Archive] - Wizards Community

dnd dmg pay system vs cost [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
vic
12-03-04, 04:16 PM From my DM
I was looking over the DMG's standard hirelings wages (also those extended lists found in the Arms & Equipment Guide) and a sudden thought occured to me.

The world/setting's economy could not run on these costs.

It would be fair to say that using the default wages that the economy is based on the silver piece. Even mercenaries don't start seeing gold pieces per day unless they are well equipped bugbears! (A&EG) However when you look at the cost of most things, prices are in the gold piece. I will illustrate my point with what I think is a poignant example.

Picture a quiet rural town by a calm lake, every morning the local men get into their small boats and row out to catch fish - they subsist on their catch, and should the gods treat them well and they bring in a good catch, they are able to sell what they don't need to those in the village who do not fish (grain farmers, goat herders, town priest etc) I would estimate that this fisherman would be a Lvl 1/2 Commoner. Now I would suggest that on a good day he could bring home dinner for his family, some fish guts/heads to feed their two pigs and maybe 2sp (give or take). A simple block and tackle would cost him 5 GOLD PIECES! How the hell is he affording that?! A more elaborate set of fishing tackle (presumably the equipment of a professional) would cost 20GP! Obviously you could say, "well he would just make the equipment himself etc etc etc" Let me give another example - the local farmer - his equipment costs over 20GP all up (including basics such as a hoe, rope, shovel, fence-hole digger etc) If you look at a 'skilled' person and they make (let's be generous) 10 silver pieces a day. They work six days a week. Have one day at church and then go back to work for another six days. 52 weeks, meaning 312 working days or a yearly income of 3120 silver pieces. A +1 magical longsword is 2315 gold pieces. That 'skilled' person would have to work nearly seven and a half years to earn that much money. Nevermind the fact that that money doesn't include living expenses etc.

Let's now take a craftsman, say a blacksmith. He will spend 30% of his income on buying raw materials. He also needs money to live. What's left over from that regular longsword he worked on for a few days? It sells in for 15 gold pieces. Five gold pieces go to the metal, say he lives comfortably with his wife and has one or two assistants. They make a couple gold pieces a day, there's another four gold. He and his wife live on the rest, 6 gold pieces or 60 silver. All that work for the sale of one sword that takes a few days to make.

The fact is that the cost of equipment is fairly decent for an adventurer (certainly priced reasonably for that Lvl 1 character with big dreams and a pocket full of starting money) There would not be a functioning society if wages were this low. Full stop - end of story.

As such I will be making all wages in my campaign setting slightly more realistically priced. I'm sorry to sort of 'spring' this on you - but it was not until now that I really sat down and looked at it - and saw the holes.

(Basically I have decided that all wages/hiring costs will go up one money class (eg - If its 5SP per day, its now 5GP per day; 2GP is now 2PP etc) however I imagine that some rules will have been changed already to accommodate this economic irregularity - so if upgrading the cost seems truly rediculous, we'll approach those on a case by case basis)

I posted this as I want peoples thoughts on this. I was wondering how has other people seen the basic costs of a commoner versus the basic cost for items.

If anyone could support the current pay system for the other side of the coin let me know, I'd be interested.
Pazuzumaki
12-03-04, 04:34 PM I thought it was obvious that the merchants just charged adventurers more because they could get away with it...but whatever.

Anyways, so long as you are going for realism, those peasants SHOULDN'T be able to afford their farmers tools. They're peasants, they work under a lord as virtual slaves to the land. And those "overpriced" tools are probobly passed down from their peasant forfathers who got it from the lord who ruled them. Sure, a lone fisherman can't earn enough money to buy half of the things he would need to make a living doing it, which is why there are fishing companys. I don't really get the point you were trying to make with the blacksmith, they are middle class and the figures you gave seem about fair.
vic
12-03-04, 04:40 PM I was thinking the farming impliment example was useful till I remembered a documentary the other night on the basic costs of running a farm. Thinking equality of equipment but not technology a basic farm to setup can cost around of $500,000 depending on the farm type.

With the blacksmith you would have to assume he needs the assistants. I used to do some blacksmithing work when younger as a old friend of mine was a self professed blacksmith who made armour etc for the local medieval re-enactment lot and he could do most of the work by himself without too much trouble. You would assume that a sword a beaten piece of metal probably just beat into a general shape before being grinded for the rest, would only need one person. At most you'd pay little timmy from down the road who has polio and can't walk to stand or sit next to the bellows and pump cos well he doesn't have anything better to do and this gets him a copper a day.

The assistants would be working on other things, other items like farming equipment or being farriers making horseshoes. The example of steel is a bit off, the commoner would probably use copper or tin, steel for only the big adventurers and only through larger operations with possibly a number of 2 or more blacksmiths each with an assistant or apprentice. Working steel in the medievel shape of a basic sword takes little time, they were little more then flat pieces of metal in a general elongated shape with a sharpened edge, not these prismatic finely designed giant things you see in movies or shops these days.
Arlowat
12-03-04, 06:18 PM Somewhat off topic, but a block and tackle is not a tackle box. It's a winch and pulley for loading and hoisting. So only BIG fishing boats would need it.
sgingell
12-03-04, 06:32 PM The prices in the books don't stand up to anything more than the most casual scrutiny. My personal favorite example is as follows:

Imagine Ned. Ned is a manual laborer in a big fantasy city, he spends his days loading and unloading ships at the docks, hot thirsty work. At the end of the day Ned stops by a dockside tavern for two mugs of ale before heading home. Ned does this every day. According to the SDR this should all but bankrupt Ned.

How much of Ned's income does he spend on ale? 80%. The equivalent of a modern US worker who makes $6 an hour spending about $40 a day on a pair of $20 Budwiesers.

Ned earns 1 SP per day and a mug of ale costs 4 CP a day. This is a common problem, almost no RPG's get the costs of basics (food, shelter, clothing, etc...) right. Multiplying everyones wages by ten would be an improvement, a deeper fix for realism's sake would probably be more effort than it was worth. Unless of course your PC's want to run kingdoms and set tax rates and actually get into the gritty of trade policy that is... For stomping around dungeons it doesn't matter that the SDR's prices are, at best, strange.

-Stephen
masterofmayhem
12-03-04, 07:02 PM The Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=122)
:angel:
Shadowfax7
12-04-04, 05:28 AM The Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=122)
:angel:

AWESOME :D
vic
12-05-04, 02:34 AM yes and so very very true

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vic 12-03-04, 04:16 PM	From my DM I was looking over the DMG's standard hirelings wages (also those extended lists found in the Arms & Equipment Guide) and a sudden thought occured to me. The world/setting's economy could not run on these costs. It would be fair to say that using the default wages that the economy is based on the silver piece. Even mercenaries don't start seeing gold pieces per day unless they are well equipped bugbears! (A&EG) However when you look at the cost of most things, prices are in the gold piece. I will illustrate my point with what I think is a poignant example. Picture a quiet rural town by a calm lake, every morning the local men get into their small boats and row out to catch fish - they subsist on their catch, and should the gods treat them well and they bring in a good catch, they are able to sell what they don't need to those in the village who do not fish (grain farmers, goat herders, town priest etc) I would estimate that this fisherman would be a Lvl 1/2 Commoner. Now I would suggest that on a good day he could bring home dinner for his family, some fish guts/heads to feed their two pigs and maybe 2sp (give or take). A simple block and tackle would cost him 5 GOLD PIECES! How the hell is he affording that?! A more elaborate set of fishing tackle (presumably the equipment of a professional) would cost 20GP! Obviously you could say, "well he would just make the equipment himself etc etc etc" Let me give another example - the local farmer - his equipment costs over 20GP all up (including basics such as a hoe, rope, shovel, fence-hole digger etc) If you look at a 'skilled' person and they make (let's be generous) 10 silver pieces a day. They work six days a week. Have one day at church and then go back to work for another six days. 52 weeks, meaning 312 working days or a yearly income of 3120 silver pieces. A +1 magical longsword is 2315 gold pieces. That 'skilled' person would have to work nearly seven and a half years to earn that much money. Nevermind the fact that that money doesn't include living expenses etc. Let's now take a craftsman, say a blacksmith. He will spend 30% of his income on buying raw materials. He also needs money to live. What's left over from that regular longsword he worked on for a few days? It sells in for 15 gold pieces. Five gold pieces go to the metal, say he lives comfortably with his wife and has one or two assistants. They make a couple gold pieces a day, there's another four gold. He and his wife live on the rest, 6 gold pieces or 60 silver. All that work for the sale of one sword that takes a few days to make. The fact is that the cost of equipment is fairly decent for an adventurer (certainly priced reasonably for that Lvl 1 character with big dreams and a pocket full of starting money) There would not be a functioning society if wages were this low. Full stop - end of story. As such I will be making all wages in my campaign setting slightly more realistically priced. I'm sorry to sort of 'spring' this on you - but it was not until now that I really sat down and looked at it - and saw the holes. (Basically I have decided that all wages/hiring costs will go up one money class (eg - If its 5SP per day, its now 5GP per day; 2GP is now 2PP etc) however I imagine that some rules will have been changed already to accommodate this economic irregularity - so if upgrading the cost seems truly rediculous, we'll approach those on a case by case basis) I posted this as I want peoples thoughts on this. I was wondering how has other people seen the basic costs of a commoner versus the basic cost for items. If anyone could support the current pay system for the other side of the coin let me know, I'd be interested.
Pazuzumaki 12-03-04, 04:34 PM	I thought it was obvious that the merchants just charged adventurers more because they could get away with it...but whatever. Anyways, so long as you are going for realism, those peasants SHOULDN'T be able to afford their farmers tools. They're peasants, they work under a lord as virtual slaves to the land. And those "overpriced" tools are probobly passed down from their peasant forfathers who got it from the lord who ruled them. Sure, a lone fisherman can't earn enough money to buy half of the things he would need to make a living doing it, which is why there are fishing companys. I don't really get the point you were trying to make with the blacksmith, they are middle class and the figures you gave seem about fair.
vic 12-03-04, 04:40 PM	I was thinking the farming impliment example was useful till I remembered a documentary the other night on the basic costs of running a farm. Thinking equality of equipment but not technology a basic farm to setup can cost around of $500,000 depending on the farm type. With the blacksmith you would have to assume he needs the assistants. I used to do some blacksmithing work when younger as a old friend of mine was a self professed blacksmith who made armour etc for the local medieval re-enactment lot and he could do most of the work by himself without too much trouble. You would assume that a sword a beaten piece of metal probably just beat into a general shape before being grinded for the rest, would only need one person. At most you'd pay little timmy from down the road who has polio and can't walk to stand or sit next to the bellows and pump cos well he doesn't have anything better to do and this gets him a copper a day. The assistants would be working on other things, other items like farming equipment or being farriers making horseshoes. The example of steel is a bit off, the commoner would probably use copper or tin, steel for only the big adventurers and only through larger operations with possibly a number of 2 or more blacksmiths each with an assistant or apprentice. Working steel in the medievel shape of a basic sword takes little time, they were little more then flat pieces of metal in a general elongated shape with a sharpened edge, not these prismatic finely designed giant things you see in movies or shops these days.
Arlowat 12-03-04, 06:18 PM	Somewhat off topic, but a block and tackle is not a tackle box. It's a winch and pulley for loading and hoisting. So only BIG fishing boats would need it.
sgingell 12-03-04, 06:32 PM	The prices in the books don't stand up to anything more than the most casual scrutiny. My personal favorite example is as follows: Imagine Ned. Ned is a manual laborer in a big fantasy city, he spends his days loading and unloading ships at the docks, hot thirsty work. At the end of the day Ned stops by a dockside tavern for two mugs of ale before heading home. Ned does this every day. According to the SDR this should all but bankrupt Ned. How much of Ned's income does he spend on ale? 80%. The equivalent of a modern US worker who makes $6 an hour spending about $40 a day on a pair of $20 Budwiesers. Ned earns 1 SP per day and a mug of ale costs 4 CP a day. This is a common problem, almost no RPG's get the costs of basics (food, shelter, clothing, etc...) right. Multiplying everyones wages by ten would be an improvement, a deeper fix for realism's sake would probably be more effort than it was worth. Unless of course your PC's want to run kingdoms and set tax rates and actually get into the gritty of trade policy that is... For stomping around dungeons it doesn't matter that the SDR's prices are, at best, strange. -Stephen
masterofmayhem 12-03-04, 07:02 PM	The Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=122) :angel:
Shadowfax7 12-04-04, 05:28 AM	The Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=122) :angel: AWESOME :D
vic 12-05-04, 02:34 AM	yes and so very very true