DnD group's first encounter with Owlbears... [Archive] - Wizards Community

DnD group's first encounter with Owlbears... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Erhnam1982
08-24-07, 02:10 PM My friends and I have been playind DnD for a few months now. We play everyother week and we have PC ranging from lvl 4-6. The other night we encountered some Owlbears for the first time, and for teh first time had to use Grapple. Since none of us have ever used Grapple it wasn't that much fun. We finally got most of grapple down, but we did have some questions. Hopefully you guys can help us out here.

Just to make sure we understood it correctly, here's an example of the fight with a fighter (lets call him Zack) grappling against an owlbear:

The owlbear attacks Zack with a full-round attack, 2 claws and a bite. The first claw hits Zack. After damage is dealt, as a free action the owlbear attempts to grapple Zack. The steps of grapple are AoO, Grab, Hold, Maintain. The owlbear doesn't draw any AoO for attempting to grapple. A Grab is a melee touch attack, which I assume the owlbear doesn't need to make since it allready hit. Hold- the owlbear and Zack make opposed grapple checks, lets assume the owlbear wins. Maintain- the owlbear has to move into Zack's space to maintain the grapple.

Is all of that right? In our fight Zack had another PC on one side of him, and a wall on the other. We assumed that the owlbear couldn't maintain the grapple because it couldn't move into the square since on one side was a wall and the other was a PC.

Assuming there was nothing else around the owlbear would have moved into Zack's space and would then be grappling. Because the owlbear is doing a full attack he has two more attacks to make. His second claw and then his bite are both at -4, correct?

What happens if on the second claw attack the owlbear tries to pin Zack, and wins. What is the bonuses/penalties would his bite attack then have?

Also what would the bonus to outside attacks hitting Zack if he were pinned (or his penalties his AC)

The reason I ask is the PHB says two things:

The PHB on page 157 says that if you are pinned, "you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While pinned you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you."

But on page 151 in the table 'Armor Class Modifiers' there is a notation by pinned, which at the bottom says 'treat the defender's dexterity as 0 (-5 modifier)"

Sorry for the long post!
InkBlot
08-24-07, 02:48 PM If you are grappling then you lose your dexterity bonus to armor class against everybody except the person you are grappling with. If you get pinned, then you also take a -4 to armor class against everybody except the person you are grappling with. So Zack uses his Flat Footed AC minus 4, against everybody who isn't the owlbear.

Also, you might want to check out Rules Of The Game: All About Grappling (parts I (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a), II (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a), III (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a), and IV (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a)).
In general, monsters follow the same rules as PCs when conducting a grapple.

Monsters in a grapple may use their natural weapons, but only by using the “Attack Your Opponent” option (which applies a –4 penalty on the attack roll). When using the “Damage Your Opponent” option, the creature deals unarmed strike damage appropriate to its size (see Part 2 of this column)

Some options available while grappling (such as “Damage Your Opponent” and “Pin Your Opponent”) state that they may be used in place of an attack. The monster gets as many “attacks” in a full attack action as it would get if it were attacking with a weapon, based on its base attack bonus: +1 to +5, one attack; +6 to +10, two attacks; +11 to +15, three attacks, and +16 and up, four attacks. Each one after the first would suffer a cumulative –5 penalty on the roll (just like a character with a high BAB making multiple weapon attacks).
For example, a dire tiger (BAB +12) grappling a PC would be allowed three separate attempts to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, or pin its opponent; the second would take a –5 penalty on the grapple check, while the third would take a –10 penalty.

Improved Grab: The improved grab special attack allows a monster to make a grab attack as part of a regular melee attack with a particular natural weapon (usually a bite or claw). If the attack hits, the natural weapon deals damage normally, and the monster immediately makes an opposed check to establish a hold. The attack doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Since the attack already dealt damage when it hit, a successful hold deals no extra damage. Each successful grapple check the attacker makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. (This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.)

A creature with the improved grab special attack has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but it is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. This is handy for really big monsters, such as giant squids and krakens.

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space (rather than entering the foe's space). According to page 310 in the Monster Manual, the grabbed creature's involuntary movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A creature with the improved grab special attack and reach drags a grabbed foe a considerable distance.

A creature with the improved grab special attack can move without making an opposed grapple check, provided it can drag the opponent's weight. The creature's movement and the involuntary movement by anyone it drags along provokes attacks of opportunity normally.

Constrict: Creatures with the constrict special attack deal extra damage when grappling. Most creatures with this attack usually also have the improved grab special attack. A creature deals extra constriction damage when it first grabs a foe and establishes a hold. If the creature later makes a grapple check to deal damage to a creature in its grasp, it deals damage from the natural weapon it uses in the attack (if any) and extra constriction damage as well.
BW0222
08-24-07, 03:47 PM Erhnam1982

The owlbear attacks Zack with a full-round attack, 2 claws and a bite. The first claw hits Zack. After damage is dealt, as a free action the owlbear attempts to grapple Zack. The steps of grapple are AoO, Grab, Hold, Maintain. The owlbear doesn't draw any AoO for attempting to grapple. A Grab is a melee touch attack, which I assume the owlbear doesn't need to make since it allready hit. Hold- the owlbear and Zack make opposed grapple checks, lets assume the owlbear wins. Maintain- the owlbear has to move into Zack's space to maintain the grapple.

Everything is good, except the last part. Creatures with improved grab don't enter their opponents squares -- they pull their opponent into their squares. This movement does not provoke an AoO. In most cases, improved grab only operates against creatures one or more sizes smaller than the creature (unless otherwise stated in the monsters description) -- although the large owlbear's improved grab works fine with a medium sized fighter.

Is all of that right? In our fight Zack had another PC on one side of him, and a wall on the other. We assumed that the owlbear couldn't maintain the grapple because it couldn't move into the square since on one side was a wall and the other was a PC.

Again, with improved grap, the fighter is pulled into the owlbear's squares.

Assuming there was nothing else around the owlbear would have moved into Zack's space and would then be grappling. Because the owlbear is doing a full attack he has two more attacks to make. His second claw and then his bite are both at -4, correct?

Yes.

What happens if on the second claw attack the owlbear tries to pin Zack, and wins. What is the bonuses/penalties would his bite attack then have?

He can't. Improved grab only helps start a grapple. However, instead of attacking with his natural weapons, he can trade them in for grapple checks -- which take only an attack action.

If the owlbears first attack succeeding in grappling the fighter (besides normal damage), it could either continue claw and bite attacks (at -4) or it could trade one or more of them to make an opposed grapple check to pin the fighter. If it pins the fighter, it can no longer attack with weapons (including its remaining bite) -- although it may make opposed grapple check to do normal grapple damage (1d4+strength for a large creature).

Also what would the bonus to outside attacks hitting Zack if he were pinned (or his penalties his AC)

No dex (for being grappled), -4 to AC (for being pinned), plus change of hitting random creature when using ranged attacks (for being grappled).

I don't believe if you check that that footnote applies to grappled creatures. That would be a helpless creature -- asleep, held, bound, etc.
Erhnam1982
08-25-07, 03:52 PM I don't believe if you check that that footnote applies to grappled creatures. That would be a helpless creature -- asleep, held, bound, etc.

On pg 151 of the PHB under the chart 'Armor Class Modifiers':

Defenders... Melee Ranged

Pinned -4[4] +0[4]

The notation [4] at the bottom of the chart reads, "[4] Treat the defender's Dexterity as 0 (-5 modifier). Rogues can sneak attack helpless or pinned defenders. See also Helpless Defenders, page 153."

Grappling says that a pinned character is not helpless, but the table clearly says that a pinned character's dex is treated as 0. That's what I'm confused on...
Mojo_Rat
08-25-07, 04:03 PM being helpless and dex being at 0 are two different things. If the pinned character were helpless you could coup de grace him.
BW0222
08-25-07, 04:10 PM Erhnam1982

The notation [4] at the bottom of the chart reads, "[4] Treat the defender's Dexterity as 0 (-5 modifier). Rogues can sneak attack helpless or pinned defenders. See also Helpless Defenders, page 153."

Grappling says that a pinned character is not helpless, but the table clearly says that a pinned character's dex is treated as 0. That's what I'm confused on...

If you are pinned, you are held immoble for one round, but are not helpless.

According to the table, your dex does drops to 0 (and they get a +4 to hit you in melee). Nothing in the text disputes this -- although it doesn't mention it specifically, except to mention that you are held immoble.

So, your dex is 0 to others when you are pinned. You could be sneak attacked (which they could do when you are grappled anyway). However, someone can't coup-de-grace you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Erhnam1982 08-24-07, 02:10 PM	My friends and I have been playind DnD for a few months now. We play everyother week and we have PC ranging from lvl 4-6. The other night we encountered some Owlbears for the first time, and for teh first time had to use Grapple. Since none of us have ever used Grapple it wasn't that much fun. We finally got most of grapple down, but we did have some questions. Hopefully you guys can help us out here. Just to make sure we understood it correctly, here's an example of the fight with a fighter (lets call him Zack) grappling against an owlbear: The owlbear attacks Zack with a full-round attack, 2 claws and a bite. The first claw hits Zack. After damage is dealt, as a free action the owlbear attempts to grapple Zack. The steps of grapple are AoO, Grab, Hold, Maintain. The owlbear doesn't draw any AoO for attempting to grapple. A Grab is a melee touch attack, which I assume the owlbear doesn't need to make since it allready hit. Hold- the owlbear and Zack make opposed grapple checks, lets assume the owlbear wins. Maintain- the owlbear has to move into Zack's space to maintain the grapple. Is all of that right? In our fight Zack had another PC on one side of him, and a wall on the other. We assumed that the owlbear couldn't maintain the grapple because it couldn't move into the square since on one side was a wall and the other was a PC. Assuming there was nothing else around the owlbear would have moved into Zack's space and would then be grappling. Because the owlbear is doing a full attack he has two more attacks to make. His second claw and then his bite are both at -4, correct? What happens if on the second claw attack the owlbear tries to pin Zack, and wins. What is the bonuses/penalties would his bite attack then have? Also what would the bonus to outside attacks hitting Zack if he were pinned (or his penalties his AC) The reason I ask is the PHB says two things: The PHB on page 157 says that if you are pinned, "you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While pinned you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you." But on page 151 in the table 'Armor Class Modifiers' there is a notation by pinned, which at the bottom says 'treat the defender's dexterity as 0 (-5 modifier)" Sorry for the long post!
InkBlot 08-24-07, 02:48 PM	If you are grappling then you lose your dexterity bonus to armor class against everybody except the person you are grappling with. If you get pinned, then you also take a -4 to armor class against everybody except the person you are grappling with. So Zack uses his Flat Footed AC minus 4, against everybody who isn't the owlbear. Also, you might want to check out Rules Of The Game: All About Grappling (parts I (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a), II (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a), III (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a), and IV (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a)). In general, monsters follow the same rules as PCs when conducting a grapple. Monsters in a grapple may use their natural weapons, but only by using the “Attack Your Opponent” option (which applies a –4 penalty on the attack roll). When using the “Damage Your Opponent” option, the creature deals unarmed strike damage appropriate to its size (see Part 2 of this column) Some options available while grappling (such as “Damage Your Opponent” and “Pin Your Opponent”) state that they may be used in place of an attack. The monster gets as many “attacks” in a full attack action as it would get if it were attacking with a weapon, based on its base attack bonus: +1 to +5, one attack; +6 to +10, two attacks; +11 to +15, three attacks, and +16 and up, four attacks. Each one after the first would suffer a cumulative –5 penalty on the roll (just like a character with a high BAB making multiple weapon attacks). For example, a dire tiger (BAB +12) grappling a PC would be allowed three separate attempts to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, or pin its opponent; the second would take a –5 penalty on the grapple check, while the third would take a –10 penalty. Improved Grab: The improved grab special attack allows a monster to make a grab attack as part of a regular melee attack with a particular natural weapon (usually a bite or claw). If the attack hits, the natural weapon deals damage normally, and the monster immediately makes an opposed check to establish a hold. The attack doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Since the attack already dealt damage when it hit, a successful hold deals no extra damage. Each successful grapple check the attacker makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. (This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.) A creature with the improved grab special attack has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but it is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. This is handy for really big monsters, such as giant squids and krakens. When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space (rather than entering the foe's space). According to page 310 in the Monster Manual, the grabbed creature's involuntary movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A creature with the improved grab special attack and reach drags a grabbed foe a considerable distance. A creature with the improved grab special attack can move without making an opposed grapple check, provided it can drag the opponent's weight. The creature's movement and the involuntary movement by anyone it drags along provokes attacks of opportunity normally. Constrict: Creatures with the constrict special attack deal extra damage when grappling. Most creatures with this attack usually also have the improved grab special attack. A creature deals extra constriction damage when it first grabs a foe and establishes a hold. If the creature later makes a grapple check to deal damage to a creature in its grasp, it deals damage from the natural weapon it uses in the attack (if any) and extra constriction damage as well.
BW0222 08-24-07, 03:47 PM	Erhnam1982 The owlbear attacks Zack with a full-round attack, 2 claws and a bite. The first claw hits Zack. After damage is dealt, as a free action the owlbear attempts to grapple Zack. The steps of grapple are AoO, Grab, Hold, Maintain. The owlbear doesn't draw any AoO for attempting to grapple. A Grab is a melee touch attack, which I assume the owlbear doesn't need to make since it allready hit. Hold- the owlbear and Zack make opposed grapple checks, lets assume the owlbear wins. Maintain- the owlbear has to move into Zack's space to maintain the grapple. Everything is good, except the last part. Creatures with improved grab don't enter their opponents squares -- they pull their opponent into their squares. This movement does not provoke an AoO. In most cases, improved grab only operates against creatures one or more sizes smaller than the creature (unless otherwise stated in the monsters description) -- although the large owlbear's improved grab works fine with a medium sized fighter. Is all of that right? In our fight Zack had another PC on one side of him, and a wall on the other. We assumed that the owlbear couldn't maintain the grapple because it couldn't move into the square since on one side was a wall and the other was a PC. Again, with improved grap, the fighter is pulled into the owlbear's squares. Assuming there was nothing else around the owlbear would have moved into Zack's space and would then be grappling. Because the owlbear is doing a full attack he has two more attacks to make. His second claw and then his bite are both at -4, correct? Yes. What happens if on the second claw attack the owlbear tries to pin Zack, and wins. What is the bonuses/penalties would his bite attack then have? He can't. Improved grab only helps start a grapple. However, instead of attacking with his natural weapons, he can trade them in for grapple checks -- which take only an attack action. If the owlbears first attack succeeding in grappling the fighter (besides normal damage), it could either continue claw and bite attacks (at -4) or it could trade one or more of them to make an opposed grapple check to pin the fighter. If it pins the fighter, it can no longer attack with weapons (including its remaining bite) -- although it may make opposed grapple check to do normal grapple damage (1d4+strength for a large creature). Also what would the bonus to outside attacks hitting Zack if he were pinned (or his penalties his AC) No dex (for being grappled), -4 to AC (for being pinned), plus change of hitting random creature when using ranged attacks (for being grappled). I don't believe if you check that that footnote applies to grappled creatures. That would be a helpless creature -- asleep, held, bound, etc.
Erhnam1982 08-25-07, 03:52 PM	I don't believe if you check that that footnote applies to grappled creatures. That would be a helpless creature -- asleep, held, bound, etc. On pg 151 of the PHB under the chart 'Armor Class Modifiers': Defenders... Melee Ranged Pinned -4[4] +0[4] The notation [4] at the bottom of the chart reads, "[4] Treat the defender's Dexterity as 0 (-5 modifier). Rogues can sneak attack helpless or pinned defenders. See also Helpless Defenders, page 153." Grappling says that a pinned character is not helpless, but the table clearly says that a pinned character's dex is treated as 0. That's what I'm confused on...
Mojo_Rat 08-25-07, 04:03 PM	being helpless and dex being at 0 are two different things. If the pinned character were helpless you could coup de grace him.
BW0222 08-25-07, 04:10 PM	Erhnam1982 The notation [4] at the bottom of the chart reads, "[4] Treat the defender's Dexterity as 0 (-5 modifier). Rogues can sneak attack helpless or pinned defenders. See also Helpless Defenders, page 153." Grappling says that a pinned character is not helpless, but the table clearly says that a pinned character's dex is treated as 0. That's what I'm confused on... If you are pinned, you are held immoble for one round, but are not helpless. According to the table, your dex does drops to 0 (and they get a +4 to hit you in melee). Nothing in the text disputes this -- although it doesn't mention it specifically, except to mention that you are held immoble. So, your dex is 0 to others when you are pinned. You could be sneak attacked (which they could do when you are grappled anyway). However, someone can't coup-de-grace you.