Do Cold Iron, Adamantine, Mithral and Alchemical Silver rust? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do Cold Iron, Adamantine, Mithral and Alchemical Silver rust? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DX2052
07-09-07, 03:59 PM Topic.
GMforPowergamers
07-09-07, 04:17 PM my 2 cents, with no backing at all...

Cold iron is iron, treat it as such,
Silver I belive rusts,
Mythral I would say no becuse I am a huge tolken fan and just say no (Hope you weren't looking for a good reason)
Adamntine i am unsure how I would handle it
Grandmaster_Kane
07-09-07, 04:19 PM all are magic metals and none of them rust naturally
JellyPooga
07-09-07, 04:23 PM Cold Iron is...well, Iron. It rusts.

Silver doesn't 'rust' as such (it does corrode), but Alchemical Silver is just a veneer on a steel weapon. It's reasonable to assume that the steel core could rust.

Mithral is (as far as I'm aware) a special kind of silver alloyed to weapons-grade iron to make a better steel. I'd say it could rust.

Adamantine is a super-hard metal of meteoric origin (I think). Whether this rusts or not is completely in the air.

My preference (as in this is how I play it) would be as follows:

Cold Iron: Rusts
Alchemical Silver: Rusts (internally, so to speak)
Mithral: Doesn't Rust
Adamantine: Doesn't Rust

But then, add an enchantment bonus to any of them and it stops rusting (as far as I'm concerned, that's part of the reason that you have an enhancement bonus for magical weapons -it doesn't deteriorate, so the edge/overall quality is kept far better than any mundane weapon)
oracle71
07-09-07, 04:38 PM You can probably assume that adamantine and mithral are at least as resistant to non-magical corrosion as high quality stainless steel is. As for magic weapons, they should be resistant. After all, if they weren't, there wouldn't be any ancient magical swords for every PC everywhere to quest for.
tarkin
07-09-07, 04:41 PM You guys are missing his main point.

I bet he is not talking about natural rust. That is something that pretty much no one cares about.

He is asking about the Rust Monster, the Rusting Grasp spell and similar effects.

The Rusting Grasp spell says any iron or iron alloy. To me that includes Cold Iron and silver coated iron, but not adamantine or mithral.

But the Rust Monster is MORE powerfull. It specifically states it can eat precious metals, such as gold and silver.

Rust monster can eat Mithral and Adamantine, in addition to Cold Iron and the alchemical silver coated iron.
JellyPooga
07-09-07, 04:49 PM You guys are missing his main point.

I we are, then he should have been more specific. :P
draconic_swine
07-09-07, 05:00 PM Agreed with tarkin with regards to the rust monster and rusting grasp.

As to naturally rusting, I've never given it any thought, but I don't suppose I'd allow either adamantine or mithral to rust, what with them being "super" metals. Nor would I allow weapons that have alchemical silver to rust "internally", since rust only occurs when the metal comes into contact with oxygen, and if the weapon has been coated with alchemical silver it's been sealed against oxygen. Just as you can rust proof your car, you can also rust proof your weapons, apparently :P
Kursk
07-09-07, 06:09 PM Do Cold Iron, Adamantine, Mithral and Alchemical Silver rust?

The way I play it:

Cold Iron = Yes
Silver = as real silver
Adamantine & Mithral = No.
JellyPooga
07-09-07, 07:00 PM Nor would I allow weapons that have alchemical silver to rust "internally", since rust only occurs when the metal comes into contact with oxygen, and if the weapon has been coated with alchemical silver it's been sealed against oxygen. Just as you can rust proof your car, you can also rust proof your weapons, apparently :P

Although the main part of an Alchemically silvered weapon will indeed be rustproofed, I get the impression that not all of it will be...e.g. the part of a dagger that is within the handle (the 'tang' is it?). I can envision an ancient alchemically silvered sword that although the blade appears usably fine (if tarnished), the wooden handle has rotted away and when someone picks it up the hilt just disintegrates to reveal that it is, in fact, practically a silver tube full of rust...

...just my vision though...
ArcTan
07-10-07, 12:26 AM all are magic metals and none of them rust naturally

No, they're not. None of them are made by magic (as far as we know) and none of them lose their properties in an AMF.

Cold iron, in particular, is just iron that's been worked with physical force at low temperatures rather than heating and casting it. "Alchemical" silver seems to just be a way to alloy or plate silver onto a steel weapon to make it suitable for fighting with. Mithral and adamantine are imaginary, but mithril, which mithral is based on, explicitly does not rust, and there seems no particular reason to assume adamantine would.
ArcTan
07-10-07, 12:34 AM Mithral is (as far as I'm aware) a special kind of silver alloyed to weapons-grade iron to make a better steel. I'd say it could rust.

The D&D books, as far as I'm aware, never refer to it as having to do with silver in any way. In Tolkien, a common term for mithril was "truesilver", but this was in reference to its color and to the idea that it was *better* than regular silver, not that it was in any way a form or alloy of silver -- simply that it was similar but superior to silver in its rarity and beauty.

Adamantine is a super-hard metal of meteoric origin (I think). Whether this rusts or not is completely in the air.

The core D&D books give no origin of adamantine, though I think one is mentioned somewhere in Forgotten Realms materials.

However, the fantasy metal "adamant" on which adamantine is based (like the "adamantine gates of hell") is used in mythology or folklore to talk about divine or magical metallic structures known for their eternal, unchanging nature -- which implies that it's not only indestructible but cannot be corroded.

Both of these features influenced the naming of the real-life mineral "adamantine", a form of "corundum", and the gem "diamond", whose name is related to "adamant". Galadriel's "adamant ring" in LotR, for instance, is clearly a diamond ring.

The idea that adamantine is meteoric probably comes from people ascribing magic properties to lodestones and incorrectly assuming that magnetic iron was magical in its imperviousness as well as its magnetic properties. One could, of course, incorporate this into D&D if one so chose.

In the end I would say that my ruling about mithral and adamantine is simply based on the fact that hardness applies to acid damage, which is generally how D&D represents all forms of quick-acting chemical corrosion, and mithral and adamantine's higher hardness makes them hard to dissolve in acid -- thus one might conclude they're also probably unreactive in ordinary rusting reactions. (Though *not* the magical rust used by Rust Monsters.)
Mogarth_Warheart
07-10-07, 12:55 AM I would say yes to all but thats just cause i think it gives the character flavor by having them do something such as an absent minded warrior might have a rather rust spotted sword while the keen eyed fighter will have a well oiled sword.
Lord_Zeb
07-10-07, 02:09 AM Cold iron = rusts, if not tended to. As normal iron.

Silvered = can be magically rusted as iron-alloy, but do not rust in general due to metallic coating.

Mithral = do not rust. Mithral is also Titanium, not silver alloy.

Adamantite = do not rust, it's basically the hardest metal in a fantasy world, for which I know of no metal in Our world that it can correspond to.

Magical metal = protected from normal rust effects, but might be affected by spells according to the spell's description.

Rust monster = Prefer ferrous metals, but can destroy any metal. Magical objects just get a DC 17 Reflex save. Metal weapons are destroyed if used on the rust monster, without save.
Silverblade The Enchanter
07-10-07, 12:30 PM 1) Mithril/Mithral and adamantine are FANTASY metals, not real ones. Thus, they can have any damned properties the DM wants ;)
-I say both are utterly uncorrodable, except if something says it specifically can affect 'em...they are mythical metals, and should be kept that way, not merely "crunch rules", but "roleplaying" comes to play. But that's me as DM.
-My view is that mithril is extremely light harder than steel but uncorrodable and extremely tough (high tensile strength way beyond steel), it's divine as it were. Adamant is unutterably hard and strong, only deities, old dragons and the like can damage it, it's the counter point of mithril.

2) Silver in real life corrodes, it doesn't "rust" as iron does but it does oxidize and iirc sulfur and other things go for it badly, hence it goes black. That's why gold and silver were alloyed to make electrum, because it's harder than gold, which is way too soft, and won't corrode like silver.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DX2052 07-09-07, 03:59 PM	Topic.
GMforPowergamers 07-09-07, 04:17 PM	my 2 cents, with no backing at all... Cold iron is iron, treat it as such, Silver I belive rusts, Mythral I would say no becuse I am a huge tolken fan and just say no (Hope you weren't looking for a good reason) Adamntine i am unsure how I would handle it
Grandmaster_Kane 07-09-07, 04:19 PM	all are magic metals and none of them rust naturally
JellyPooga 07-09-07, 04:23 PM	Cold Iron is...well, Iron. It rusts. Silver doesn't 'rust' as such (it does corrode), but Alchemical Silver is just a veneer on a steel weapon. It's reasonable to assume that the steel core could rust. Mithral is (as far as I'm aware) a special kind of silver alloyed to weapons-grade iron to make a better steel. I'd say it could rust. Adamantine is a super-hard metal of meteoric origin (I think). Whether this rusts or not is completely in the air. My preference (as in this is how I play it) would be as follows: Cold Iron: Rusts Alchemical Silver: Rusts (internally, so to speak) Mithral: Doesn't Rust Adamantine: Doesn't Rust But then, add an enchantment bonus to any of them and it stops rusting (as far as I'm concerned, that's part of the reason that you have an enhancement bonus for magical weapons -it doesn't deteriorate, so the edge/overall quality is kept far better than any mundane weapon)
oracle71 07-09-07, 04:38 PM	You can probably assume that adamantine and mithral are at least as resistant to non-magical corrosion as high quality stainless steel is. As for magic weapons, they should be resistant. After all, if they weren't, there wouldn't be any ancient magical swords for every PC everywhere to quest for.
tarkin 07-09-07, 04:41 PM	You guys are missing his main point. I bet he is not talking about natural rust. That is something that pretty much no one cares about. He is asking about the Rust Monster, the Rusting Grasp spell and similar effects. The Rusting Grasp spell says any iron or iron alloy. To me that includes Cold Iron and silver coated iron, but not adamantine or mithral. But the Rust Monster is MORE powerfull. It specifically states it can eat precious metals, such as gold and silver. Rust monster can eat Mithral and Adamantine, in addition to Cold Iron and the alchemical silver coated iron.
JellyPooga 07-09-07, 04:49 PM	You guys are missing his main point. I we are, then he should have been more specific. :P
draconic_swine 07-09-07, 05:00 PM	Agreed with tarkin with regards to the rust monster and rusting grasp. As to naturally rusting, I've never given it any thought, but I don't suppose I'd allow either adamantine or mithral to rust, what with them being "super" metals. Nor would I allow weapons that have alchemical silver to rust "internally", since rust only occurs when the metal comes into contact with oxygen, and if the weapon has been coated with alchemical silver it's been sealed against oxygen. Just as you can rust proof your car, you can also rust proof your weapons, apparently :P
Kursk 07-09-07, 06:09 PM	Do Cold Iron, Adamantine, Mithral and Alchemical Silver rust? The way I play it: Cold Iron = Yes Silver = as real silver Adamantine & Mithral = No.
JellyPooga 07-09-07, 07:00 PM	Nor would I allow weapons that have alchemical silver to rust "internally", since rust only occurs when the metal comes into contact with oxygen, and if the weapon has been coated with alchemical silver it's been sealed against oxygen. Just as you can rust proof your car, you can also rust proof your weapons, apparently :P Although the main part of an Alchemically silvered weapon will indeed be rustproofed, I get the impression that not all of it will be...e.g. the part of a dagger that is within the handle (the 'tang' is it?). I can envision an ancient alchemically silvered sword that although the blade appears usably fine (if tarnished), the wooden handle has rotted away and when someone picks it up the hilt just disintegrates to reveal that it is, in fact, practically a silver tube full of rust... ...just my vision though...
ArcTan 07-10-07, 12:26 AM	all are magic metals and none of them rust naturally No, they're not. None of them are made by magic (as far as we know) and none of them lose their properties in an AMF. Cold iron, in particular, is just iron that's been worked with physical force at low temperatures rather than heating and casting it. "Alchemical" silver seems to just be a way to alloy or plate silver onto a steel weapon to make it suitable for fighting with. Mithral and adamantine are imaginary, but mithril, which mithral is based on, explicitly does not rust, and there seems no particular reason to assume adamantine would.
ArcTan 07-10-07, 12:34 AM	Mithral is (as far as I'm aware) a special kind of silver alloyed to weapons-grade iron to make a better steel. I'd say it could rust. The D&D books, as far as I'm aware, never refer to it as having to do with silver in any way. In Tolkien, a common term for mithril was "truesilver", but this was in reference to its color and to the idea that it was better than regular silver, not that it was in any way a form or alloy of silver -- simply that it was similar but superior to silver in its rarity and beauty. Adamantine is a super-hard metal of meteoric origin (I think). Whether this rusts or not is completely in the air. The core D&D books give no origin of adamantine, though I think one is mentioned somewhere in Forgotten Realms materials. However, the fantasy metal "adamant" on which adamantine is based (like the "adamantine gates of hell") is used in mythology or folklore to talk about divine or magical metallic structures known for their eternal, unchanging nature -- which implies that it's not only indestructible but cannot be corroded. Both of these features influenced the naming of the real-life mineral "adamantine", a form of "corundum", and the gem "diamond", whose name is related to "adamant". Galadriel's "adamant ring" in LotR, for instance, is clearly a diamond ring. The idea that adamantine is meteoric probably comes from people ascribing magic properties to lodestones and incorrectly assuming that magnetic iron was magical in its imperviousness as well as its magnetic properties. One could, of course, incorporate this into D&D if one so chose. In the end I would say that my ruling about mithral and adamantine is simply based on the fact that hardness applies to acid damage, which is generally how D&D represents all forms of quick-acting chemical corrosion, and mithral and adamantine's higher hardness makes them hard to dissolve in acid -- thus one might conclude they're also probably unreactive in ordinary rusting reactions. (Though not the magical rust used by Rust Monsters.)
Mogarth_Warheart 07-10-07, 12:55 AM	I would say yes to all but thats just cause i think it gives the character flavor by having them do something such as an absent minded warrior might have a rather rust spotted sword while the keen eyed fighter will have a well oiled sword.
Lord_Zeb 07-10-07, 02:09 AM	Cold iron = rusts, if not tended to. As normal iron. Silvered = can be magically rusted as iron-alloy, but do not rust in general due to metallic coating. Mithral = do not rust. Mithral is also Titanium, not silver alloy. Adamantite = do not rust, it's basically the hardest metal in a fantasy world, for which I know of no metal in Our world that it can correspond to. Magical metal = protected from normal rust effects, but might be affected by spells according to the spell's description. Rust monster = Prefer ferrous metals, but can destroy any metal. Magical objects just get a DC 17 Reflex save. Metal weapons are destroyed if used on the rust monster, without save.
Silverblade The Enchanter 07-10-07, 12:30 PM	1) Mithril/Mithral and adamantine are FANTASY metals, not real ones. Thus, they can have any damned properties the DM wants ;) -I say both are utterly uncorrodable, except if something says it specifically can affect 'em...they are mythical metals, and should be kept that way, not merely "crunch rules", but "roleplaying" comes to play. But that's me as DM. -My view is that mithril is extremely light harder than steel but uncorrodable and extremely tough (high tensile strength way beyond steel), it's divine as it were. Adamant is unutterably hard and strong, only deities, old dragons and the like can damage it, it's the counter point of mithril. 2) Silver in real life corrodes, it doesn't "rust" as iron does but it does oxidize and iirc sulfur and other things go for it badly, hence it goes black. That's why gold and silver were alloyed to make electrum, because it's harder than gold, which is way too soft, and won't corrode like silver.