Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pitiless_Interfector 02-23-07, 11:33 PM	After looking over the section on cursed items in the DMG, I realized that there were no guidelines for purposely constructing items with curses. True, specific items such as the scarab of death, the helm of opposite alignment, and the periapt of foul rotting have creation requirements and market prices assigned, but there are no guidelines to adding drawbacks or requirements to standard items such as a belt of giant strength or a staff of fire. A belt that provides a +6 enhancement bonus to strength but bestows a negative level on its wearer should cost significantly less than 36,000 gp, but the DMG provides no guidance as to what its price should be. I feel that there should be guidelines for this, but I doubt I have the mental acuity to determine what they are. But for discussion purposes, I'll list what thoughts I can. Common curses: (Note: This deals strictly with DMG curses. I know for a fact that the Arms and Equipment guide also has additional curses, but since I can't find my copy at present, someone'll probably need to post them in a reply, or some such) Delusion: This kind of item is utterly useless to a party, and as such I simply don't have anything to say about it. Opposite Effect or Target: These items are very, very tricky to generalize about. If the change in target or effect is harmful to the user or beneficial only to his enemies, then it's worthless to the party. But if its altered effect or target is useful, it in effect becomes a completely different magic item, and should be priced differently. The wand of lightning bolt that heals damage discussed in the DMG, for example, would be difficult to adjudicate. Either you could simply create a wand of some cure spell, in which case the item is simply a wand constructed with deceptive defenses against divination (probably worth something, but not much), or you have a wand that heals 5d6 points of damage to every creature in a 10-by-120-ft. line, which is far more powerful than a cure spell of identical level and is probably worth 50,000-75,000 or more gp, since you can aim the line to include multiple party members while excluding hostile creatures (in this case, lightning bolt actually is better than fireball). I really don't have much to say about this, other than that these items usually pose more problems than they're worth. Intermittent Functioning: There are three kinds of intermittently functioning items: unreliable, dependent, and uncontrolled. Unreliable: Each time someone attempts to use the item, there is a chance (anywhere from 1% to 10%, but usually 5%) that the item does not function, and the action and charges (if any) normally used to activate it are wasted. Personally, I think this should be relatively easy to price; the first thing to spring to mind would be to take the item's value, divide it by 100, multiply the quotient by the failure chance, and subtract the result from the item's normal value. Of course, I may be wrong on this one; making a staff of power unreliable reduces its effectiveness much more than making a ring of telekinesis unreliable, and for single-use items such as scrolls, I highly recommend not making them unreliable, because either they function as normal and act exactly like a noncursed scroll of the same sort, or they fail, and all the gold and XP that went into them is wasted. I'm not saying there won't be unreliable scrolls out there, I just don't think they'll be the sort of thing the party will encounter on their own very often or make for themselves. Dependent Items: These items are tricky. Making the discount a set percentage will likely just cause trouble, as they are highly dependent on the circumstances. Discounts should be given on a case-by-case basis, and even then only if the limitation provides a hindrance to the party. If an item can only be used underwater, for example, then it will almost certainly see near-zero use from an air-breathing party, but would provide minimal difficulties for a party of aquatic elves, who almost never venture out of the water. Depending on the campaign, they may receive a slight discount (5% would be pushing it), or none at all, if the campaign is set in an aquatic elf reef-city on the Elemental Plane of Water that faces a force of malenti infiltrators engaged in a shadow war of sabotage and assassination. And of course, a necklace of water breathing that only functions underwater is utterly redundant, and any player seeking to create such an item at a discount is a gear-munchkin who deserves to writhe in a shriver until his bones are rent and his life unraveled in a slow and painful fashion. Uncontrolled: These, too, are difficult to adjudicate. For items such as a wand of fireball, where any unwanted activation will probably cause significant damage to the wielder and his allies, this is a significant defect that should probably be worth a discount, especially if the random activations waste a charge. If they waste a charge, then they give the item a shelf-life. With a typical wand, having a 5% chance each day of randomly activating means that even if never used, it will become a nonmagical object in less than 3 years. If it is used on even a semiregular basis, it lasts considerably less. However, a ring of invisibility, which has no use limit, is unlikely to present much of a problem if it is uncontrolled. And keep in mind, uncontrolled items are supposed to go off at completely random times of the day. Usually, the DM has them go off during an important encounter. Keep in mind that on the one-in-twenty days the item goes off uncontrolled, the probability of it going off at such a time is so slim as to be astronomical. Several such occurrences in a row are statistically equivalent to having your head spontaneously turning into a giant tomato larger than the known universe before you finish this sentence. See? Keep this in mind when pricing a discount. Requirements: These are just as tricky as intermittently-functioning items; perhaps even more so. Some of them are almost trivial, such as having to consume double the normal amount of food. Assuming the extra energy is transferred to the item and not stored in your dss as fat, this really doesn't present much of a problem, and, arguably, a simple clear spindle ioun stone mitigates the drawback entirely. Other requirements, such as changing your name or swearing fealty to a noble house or deity, will be more or less difficult to price depending on the campaign. Arguably, installing such a requirement would make the item more valuable in the grand scheme of things, as it cannot be used by those not associated with the noble house or religion, and thus making it an unattractive prospect for knowledgeable thieves (though the average crook wouldn't be able to tell what the item was, he still wouldn't be able to activate the item or sell it without elaborate preparation, which he probably won't be able to complete before discern location and greater planar ally rectify the loss. Drawback: These are probably the easiest to price, though still tricky. Some, such as "Character's hair grows 1 inch longer. Only happens once," probably aren't worth a discount. In fact, almost half the drawbacks listed on the table on DMG 273 are either trivial or have no effect on a character's statistics. Others, such as gaining a negative level, could probably be priced relatively easily (though not by me). It's getting late, and I have work I need to do, so I'll try to wrap this up. Completely Different Effect: Essentially, you're creating a totally different item with an inbuilt protection that misleads identify and detect magic. See Opposite Effect or Target, above. Keep in mind that creating a huge list of requirements that can only be feasibly met by the intended user of the item should probably be worth at least a slight discount. While a greater metamagic rod of Quicken Spell that only functions in the hands of a chaotic good female elf arcane spellcaster whose name is Mialee and who worships Corellon Larethian is functionally identical to a standard rod when in the hands of Mialee, the fact that nobody else can use the d@mn thing means that once she's created it, she can't sell it. So, in addition to the 6,800 XP she had to spend to create it (which she can't get back anyway), she won't be able to sell it and get back the 85,000 gp she spent to pay for the raw materials. That money is gone, and she can't change her mind. She has given up the ability to exchange the item for something else in the event of the prior item's utility diminishing, and in return has gotten the assurance that almost no one else who could possibly get their hands on it could use it, which (epic rogues with Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand), Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), and a scroll of superior invisibility aside) has no effect in combat. So, yes, this should warrant a very large discount, because it represents a significant sacrifice of gold, and, ultimately, flexibility. Its like Bill Gates exchanging all his money for Yugoslavian currency; since the country no longer exists, no one will try to steal it, but now the only thing its good for is swimming in. Of course, a magic item is generally a better investment than currency from a former Communist republic. If anybody has Arms and Equipment Guide, I'd appreciate a list of the curses in that book, so we can all discuss them together in the morning. Night-night! :zzz:
RavenDrake 02-24-07, 11:34 AM	I would have to say that I would never give a discount for a cursed item. There are enough abuses that get pushed around by the "Well, I've made it so only my class can use it, so I get a 30% discount" folk... To my mind there are only two kinds of cursed items, accidentally cursed and intentionally cursed. Accidentally cursed items were supposed to function properly to begin with, but don't, therefore they recieve no discount on the costs to produce them, though they may have a reduced market price value if thier haphazard function is discovered. Intentionally cursed items are made primarily to trick or weaken a foe... as such they have just as much usefulness(or more) as the standard item, and take additional resources, planning, and effort to create, meaning I'd apply a premium to thier costs before I'd discount them....
risner 02-25-07, 08:35 AM	Just like any creation, if it doesn't hinder the player it shouldn't be discounted. A cursed belt of +6 str that grants a negative level while worn doesn't hinder the player any more than a LA=1 race, so it shouldn't actually cost less. An item that progressively does Xd6 non lethal damage every day would hinder the player (one that can not be removed.) 1d6 on the 1st day, 2d6 on the 2nd, 99d6 on the 99th, etc. An item of this type may warrant a discount to buy or sale, but it may not warrant a discount to craft.
runestar 02-25-07, 08:48 AM	It's hard to properly price these curses since their impact may vary depending on who wields them. It might not be impossible to work around this curse, or perhaps even turn it into a blessing. The end result would be an unpopular price subsidy. I would say to go on a case by case basis. An item that progressively does Xd6 non lethal damage every day would hinder the player (one that can not be removed.) 1d6 on the 1st day, 2d6 on the 2nd, 99d6 on the 99th, etc. An item of this type may warrant a discount to buy or sale, but it may not warrant a discount to craft. Someone immune to non-lethal damage, like a troll or undead would be able to wield said item with no drawbacks at all. So yep, definitely no discount to craft...:P
wal9000 02-25-07, 11:15 AM	Just like any creation, if it doesn't hinder the player it shouldn't be discounted. A cursed belt of +6 str that grants a negative level while worn doesn't hinder the player any more than a LA=1 race, so it shouldn't actually cost less. No offense meant, but that's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. This is comparable to making an item that requires a wizard to use all spell slots to prepare Light and Heightened Light spells, which obviously doesn't hinder him, because he might have done that anyway without the item. I should also probably just flat out compare this to a wizard losing all spell casting ability, because it wouldn't hinder his casting any more than playing a fighter would. Would you be hindered by playing an LA=10 race that had racial abilities identical to a half elf? I mean, it's not like it gives you penalties, just 10 levels less of BAB, saves, HD, and class features.
risner 02-25-07, 11:45 AM	No offense meant, but that's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. You obviously didn't get my point. My point was LA=1 race that grants +6 STR might be very nice for a Warrior (with no negative abilitiy scores.) So an item that costs less and acts similar to a +6 STR LA=1 race would be no drawback to a fighter type. Therefore an item that is cursed to grant one negative level but give you +6 STR is a very nice item. It shouldn't grant a discount in purchase or build cost.
Khadmus 02-25-07, 12:39 PM	The way I see it, a cheaper item is "rushed". It's even lower quality than mass-produced crap, and something is BOUND to go wrong. I'd say for a ##% cheaper price, the DM chooses a curse for your item, or rolls randomly.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz 02-25-07, 01:10 PM	No cursed item get a discount, almost never a cursed item get a discount... ...unless the buyer knows its a cursed item in the first place (an unlikely course of action, because the buyer must be able to identify the item or someone must identify the item for him) or its a trap to trick someone into using it. In fact a cursed item (like your +6 belt of giant strenght that grants a negative level) probably cost higher because its look prettier, fancier or better than a normal +6 belt of giant strenght. In adition your cursed belt can not be removed short of a remove curse spell. the default i made in my houserules for pricing a cursed item its: *If the curse is unknown to the buyer - cost as normal or 30% higher (or more) than the original price *If the curse is known - as low as a 30% discount (the last statement is mainly because you can use a cursed item against another character if a remove curse is cast on it). A good use for a curse item is to make your character unique or give a good flavor. Imagine that your DM allows you to get that +6 belt of giant strenght that grants a negative level for a discount, but you must make it make sense with a good backstory First of all, your character is probably a fighter type char so you can not known the item is cursed. Then an enemy probably tricking him into use the item. Also a +6 belt of giant strenght is a mayor woundrous item so if you have one at medium levels your character challenge raiting or effective character level increases by two or three levels -even with a negative level-, so it probably not be allowed at all. At lower level your
Nathreet 02-25-07, 06:18 PM	The armor of arrow attraction provides decent magical armor at almot half the price. Only drawback is the -15 to AC vs. arrows. And removing it at night.
kelb_panthera 02-26-07, 04:43 AM	Generally speaking, noone would ever, knowingly, buy a cursed item, and to be caught knowledgeably selling them would almost certainly bring down the wrath of the local government/church. As such, no discount. In fact, the trouble a spell caster could get into making such devices would almost certainly have him charging extra to anyone buying them, whether they know it's cursed or not, and if he's conning, he'll probably skip town after a short period of time anyway.
jaelis 02-26-07, 07:37 AM	You obviously didn't get my point. My point was LA=1 race that grants +6 STR might be very nice for a Warrior (with no negative abilitiy scores.) So an item that costs less and acts similar to a +6 STR LA=1 race would be no drawback to a fighter type. Yes, but I could decide to play that race (which sounds reasonably well balanced) without having to pay 36000 gp (and an item slot) for the privilege. By that argument, the belt should be free. As for cursed item in general, I think RavenDrake got it right. If the item was created accidentally, it shouldn't cost less because you weren't trying to make a defective item. If if was created on purpose, then the defect is a feature, not a bug. If anything, it should cost more. What I could see is a rule where a crafter could try to make an item on the cheap, say at a 20% discount. There would be a corresponding chance, however, for the item to end up cursed in some way. The trick would be that the DM gets to choose the curse :)
risner 02-26-07, 12:19 PM	By that argument, the belt should be free. No, since the belt is a toggle that you could more easily remove than a race choice. ;-)