2 new Harpers' prestige classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 new Harpers' prestige classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mr. Master
05-18-07, 08:34 AM Hello,I've posted this topic on the generale board in the D&D board,but it was suggested to me to post it here,since I'm basically talking about 2 prestige classes related to the Faerun's setting.

Well, here are the 2 prestige classes I’ve been long thinking about. In the next campaign I’m going to run (note that I’m a 3.0 DM and these 2 prestige classes have been created with the 3.0 rules in mind), two of my players are interested in playing these two prestige classes and I’d like to know your opinion on them.

Harper Knight
While the Harper Agent uses his skills and the Harper Mage his spells, the Harper Knight fight for the Harpers’ goals with only one thing: his powerful battle skills. Harper Knights are highly trained to fight Harpers’ most common enemies and they receive a wide range of protections from the Harpers’ gods. They can easily be found as commanders in chief of the Harpers’ military forces or as bodyguards for the most important members of the organization.
Fighters, rangers and paladins are the most common members of this prestige class. Barbarians can get some levels in this prestige class only if they show that their strategy skill goes beyond their rage. Bards and clerics, if particularly good at fighting, are also sometimes members of this prestige class., while only those monks whose monastic order is an Harpers’ ally acquire some levels as Harper Knights. Thieves, sorcerors and wizards never become Harper Knights.

HD = d10
Skill points at each level = 2 + Int bonus
Class skills = Climb, Jump, Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim

Entry requirements
BAB = +5
Weapon proficiency = must be able to use all simple and martial weapons
Feats = Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (any)

Level BAB Fort/ Ref/ Wil Special
1 +1 +2/+2/+0 Milil’s voice
2 +2 +3/+3/+0 favoured enemy
3 +3 +3/+3/+1 Red Knight’s armour
4 +4 +4/+4/+1 favoured enemy
5 +5 +4/+4/+1 Mystra’s boon
Milil’s voice = the Harper Knight receives a +2 holy bonus on all his saving throws against any fear or compulsion effect
Favoured enemy = this “power” works like ranger’s one. When the Harper Knight reaches 2nd level, he must choose one his first favoured enemy among those organizations that are strictly opposed to the Harpers. The complete list includes Bane’s church, the Iron Throne, malaugryms, Red Wizards, Zhentarims, the Dragon’s Cult and shadovars. The bonus is +1 at 2nd level and +2 (against the first favoured enemy) or +1 (against the second favoured enemy) at 4th level
Red Knight’s armour = the Harper Knight receive a natural armour of +2 or, if he has already one, his own one improves by +2
Mystra’s boon= the Harper Knight receives a +2 cognitive bonus to all his saving throws against any magical effect

Harper Avenger
When all other things fail against their enemies, the Harpers send the feared Harper Avenger. Highly trained both in fighting and magic, the Harper Avenger has also an impressive amount of skills and powers. All these gifts are necessary, because he has the most difficult mission among the Harpers’ ranks: he must silently swift across enemy lines and kill his target (usually an enemy leader) with a single blow. Much like the assassin, the Harper Avenger is a master of silent killing.
Thieves/ wizards, thieves/ clerics and other multiclassed characters that can meet the entry requirements of this fearsome prestige class, can be found among their members.

HD = d6
Skill points at each level= 6 + Int bonus
Class skills = Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession (any), Sleight of Hand, Spot, Use Rope

Entry requirements
BAB = +5
Skills = Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Disguise 5 ranks, Disable Device 5 ranks, Gather Information 5 ranks
Special = sneak attack +1d6
Special = must be able to cast 1st level arcane spells or 1st level divine spells
Special = must kill an enemy leader chosen by the Harpers’ high ranks (and survive) all alone

Level BAB Fort/ Ref/ Wil Special Spellcasting
1 +0 +0/+2/+0 death attack, Mielikki’s speed +1 level of existing class
2 +1 +0/+3/+0 sneak attack +1d6 +1 level of existing class
3 +2 +1/+3/+1 Selune’s sight +1 level of existing class
4 +3 +1/+4/+1 sneak attack +2d6 +1 level of existing class
5 +3 +1/+4/+1 Mystra’s boon +1 level of existing class

Weapon proficiency = you are able to use all simple and martial weapons, as well as light armour and bucklers
Death attack = the Harper Avenger’s death attack works like the assassin’s one, except that the max DC that can be reached is obviously lower (since the max class level is 5)
Mielikki’s speed = when wearing light armour or no armour, your base speed improves by 10 feet
Selune’s sight = you get low light vision or, if you already have it, its range doubles
Mystra’s boon = the Harper Avenger receives a +2 cognitive bonus to all his saving throws against any magical effect

What do you think about these prestige classes? Are they balanced? Do they respect the background of the Harpers? Is the Harper Avenger overpowered? Would they be good for the 3.5 edition?
Thanks a lot.:)
Steelwind
05-18-07, 12:43 PM Looks good but you forgot the 1st lvl ability of every harper PrC, Harper Knowledge. And dont forget the Any Nonevil requirement.
Mr. Master
05-18-07, 05:20 PM You are right,I should have remembered about those 2 important things...
I've some doubts particularly about the Harper Avenger,because he seems pretty similar to the Harper Mage but with the addition of sneak attack and death attack.
The_Shaman
05-19-07, 07:21 AM I'm a little sceptical about the knight... Harpers seem to focus more on stealth and on being inobtrusive than on brute force, so if there were a particular brand of warriors typical to the organization I'd suggest lighter armor proficiencies and more skill points (harpers tend to be quite skilled). As for the avenger, it is quite good... I think the organization, given its ties to a few churches, might more likely make use of divine seekers for the missions requiring particular stealth - and perhaps a few stabs in someone's back.

Alternatively, it can be a great way to introduce my favourite CAdv PrCs - the nightsong enforcer (er, you might want to change the "enforcer") and nightsong infiltrator - in the mix.
Mr. Master
05-20-07, 08:29 AM Uhm,maybe giving the Harper Knight 4 skill points peach level and 4 more skills would be a good idea...what skills would you suggest?However,the concept behind the Harper Knight creation is that even the Harpers sometimes need brute strength:you can't fight against a band of Zhentarims with 6 skill points each level!

As for the avenger,I wanted a PrC more strictly linked to the Harpers.The divine seeker,given its link to a church,would be more likely to help that church's interests,thant the Harpers' ones.
theartistformerlyknownas
05-23-07, 12:31 AM I would switch the Death attack to 5th level on the avenger. Otherwise solid.
The_Shaman
05-23-07, 04:52 AM Uhm,maybe giving the Harper Knight 4 skill points peach level and 4 more skills would be a good idea...what skills would you suggest?However,the concept behind the Harper Knight creation is that even the Harpers sometimes need brute strength:you can't fight against a band of Zhentarims with 6 skill points each level!

Off the top of my head... Diplomacy, sense motive, intimidate, maybe some knowledges. However, I would prefer a slightly different "muscle" for the Harpers, one with a more stealthy feel or at least able not to stick out - i.e. something along the lines of the (urban) ranger or the swashbuckler. Also, consider substituting Iron will for WF; it's an iconic feat for the harper classes, and not so useless as the blasted alertness.

As for the avenger,I wanted a PrC more strictly linked to the Harpers.The divine seeker,given its link to a church,would be more likely to help that church's interests,thant the Harpers' ones.

True, although Harpers tend to have VERY good relations with several deities and their cults, so I would not be surprised if they had more than a few seekers in their (part-time) ranks. I do not know if they have enough of an assassin-ish tradition to warrant a particular class, mind you - and here we are talking about agents that are much better at killing someone outright that the average high-level rogue. Maybe it could be a special effect rather than death attack... I.e. silencing attack or AMF effect to better represent their magical training.

Also, consider nerfing the spellcasting progression - +2d6 SA and 5/5 of any casting can be quite good. You could compensate for that with a good will save.
Steelwind
05-23-07, 08:19 AM I dont know if its just me but I dont believe that ANY harper PrC should have a weak will save, no matter how good or bad their specific class abilities are, it should just be a given.
Mr. Master
05-23-07, 05:23 PM x Steelwind:
Uhm,as for the Harper Knight I could switch one of the good ST from Ref to Will.
As for the Harper Avenger,see the answer below.

x The_Shaman:
I know that +2d6 SA and 5/5 spell progression is a strong thing,but I wished to create a sort of mix between the spellcasting Harpers' PRC and the Harper Agent.I could give a 3/5 spell progression (no spell progression at 2nd and 4th level) and a good Will ST,but I don't know if it would be such a good thing.

As for the different feeling for the Harper Knight,I don't agree with you because,when I created this prestige class,I had in mind a sort of faerunian Space Marine:a strong warrior with good strategic skills and very hard to defeat face to face,not a sushi Tau.:)
The_Shaman
05-23-07, 06:07 PM @MrMaster: I have an idea you wanted to create a heavier warrior, I just don't know why or how the harpers would have a specific tradition of using those that would warrant a particular PrC.

IMO, they have no problem recruiting or using fighters, paladins, crusaders, or whatever you have in the Realms, it's just that their particular expertise lies elsewhere. I consider the Harper classes to represent areas in which they have a unique and special focus and, well, "steel-plated basher" doesn't seem to tie in with what I know of them. Just my idea, though... I don't find a serious mechanical problem with the class itself, if you're adamant on using it. Perhaps a good will save instead of reflex, to be honest, and the feat isse I've already pointed at.
Mr. Master
05-24-07, 06:17 AM So how could this Prc be modified if it has to be made more similar to the urban ranger or the swashbuckler (I suppose you're talking about 2 3.5 classes,since here in 3.0 I haven't seen them)?

As for the Harper Avenger,I was thinking about giving him its own spell list, instead of just giving him a 3/5 spell progression.I think that taking some spells from the wizard's,cleric's and assassin's spell list would be good,but I'm still working on them.
Drew1369r
05-24-07, 06:28 PM The spell progression for the avenger I would nix as well as its own spell list as it just ties into the assassin PrC the death attack is iffy because alot of gods view killing someone in that matter an evil act.
Mr. Master
05-25-07, 04:13 PM A lot,but not ALL the good guys.
And killing someone with one single hit it's not an evil thing in itself:there's no difference,in fact,with killing someone with 2 or 3 spells or 4 rounds of sword fighting.What's the difference?The result it's the same one:enemy's death (and,if D&D was not focused on hit points,you could kill someone with just one good slash of your trusted battle axe,as it should be in real life).
The evil thing is to kill someone just for money of for the pleasure of looking into the eyes of your victim.If you kill the wizard that's making magical experiments with those poor gnomes or the brutal orc battle lord that wants to destroy Silverymoon or the dragon that has caused so muchs suffering and pain (and wants to provoke them again after a month or two of sleeping),well...you are doing a good thing.
The_Shaman
05-26-07, 01:35 PM So how could this Prc be modified if it has to be made more similar to the urban ranger or the swashbuckler (I suppose you're talking about 2 3.5 classes,since here in 3.0 I haven't seen them)?

As for the Harper Avenger,I was thinking about giving him its own spell list, instead of just giving him a 3/5 spell progression.I think that taking some spells from the wizard's,cleric's and assassin's spell list would be good,but I'm still working on them.

The Urban ranger you can find at d20srd.org, in the Variant // classes section. Luckily, almost all of Unearthed arcana is open gaming license. If you are using 3.0, you might be able to reconfigure some of what you see there. Generally speaking, both classes tend to use somewhat lighter armors, and have more skills. The rest is optional ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr. Master 05-18-07, 08:34 AM	Hello,I've posted this topic on the generale board in the D&D board,but it was suggested to me to post it here,since I'm basically talking about 2 prestige classes related to the Faerun's setting. Well, here are the 2 prestige classes I’ve been long thinking about. In the next campaign I’m going to run (note that I’m a 3.0 DM and these 2 prestige classes have been created with the 3.0 rules in mind), two of my players are interested in playing these two prestige classes and I’d like to know your opinion on them. Harper Knight While the Harper Agent uses his skills and the Harper Mage his spells, the Harper Knight fight for the Harpers’ goals with only one thing: his powerful battle skills. Harper Knights are highly trained to fight Harpers’ most common enemies and they receive a wide range of protections from the Harpers’ gods. They can easily be found as commanders in chief of the Harpers’ military forces or as bodyguards for the most important members of the organization. Fighters, rangers and paladins are the most common members of this prestige class. Barbarians can get some levels in this prestige class only if they show that their strategy skill goes beyond their rage. Bards and clerics, if particularly good at fighting, are also sometimes members of this prestige class., while only those monks whose monastic order is an Harpers’ ally acquire some levels as Harper Knights. Thieves, sorcerors and wizards never become Harper Knights. HD = d10 Skill points at each level = 2 + Int bonus Class skills = Climb, Jump, Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim Entry requirements BAB = +5 Weapon proficiency = must be able to use all simple and martial weapons Feats = Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (any) Level BAB Fort/ Ref/ Wil Special 1 +1 +2/+2/+0 Milil’s voice 2 +2 +3/+3/+0 favoured enemy 3 +3 +3/+3/+1 Red Knight’s armour 4 +4 +4/+4/+1 favoured enemy 5 +5 +4/+4/+1 Mystra’s boon Milil’s voice = the Harper Knight receives a +2 holy bonus on all his saving throws against any fear or compulsion effect Favoured enemy = this “power” works like ranger’s one. When the Harper Knight reaches 2nd level, he must choose one his first favoured enemy among those organizations that are strictly opposed to the Harpers. The complete list includes Bane’s church, the Iron Throne, malaugryms, Red Wizards, Zhentarims, the Dragon’s Cult and shadovars. The bonus is +1 at 2nd level and +2 (against the first favoured enemy) or +1 (against the second favoured enemy) at 4th level Red Knight’s armour = the Harper Knight receive a natural armour of +2 or, if he has already one, his own one improves by +2 Mystra’s boon= the Harper Knight receives a +2 cognitive bonus to all his saving throws against any magical effect Harper Avenger When all other things fail against their enemies, the Harpers send the feared Harper Avenger. Highly trained both in fighting and magic, the Harper Avenger has also an impressive amount of skills and powers. All these gifts are necessary, because he has the most difficult mission among the Harpers’ ranks: he must silently swift across enemy lines and kill his target (usually an enemy leader) with a single blow. Much like the assassin, the Harper Avenger is a master of silent killing. Thieves/ wizards, thieves/ clerics and other multiclassed characters that can meet the entry requirements of this fearsome prestige class, can be found among their members. HD = d6 Skill points at each level= 6 + Int bonus Class skills = Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession (any), Sleight of Hand, Spot, Use Rope Entry requirements BAB = +5 Skills = Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Disguise 5 ranks, Disable Device 5 ranks, Gather Information 5 ranks Special = sneak attack +1d6 Special = must be able to cast 1st level arcane spells or 1st level divine spells Special = must kill an enemy leader chosen by the Harpers’ high ranks (and survive) all alone Level BAB Fort/ Ref/ Wil Special Spellcasting 1 +0 +0/+2/+0 death attack, Mielikki’s speed +1 level of existing class 2 +1 +0/+3/+0 sneak attack +1d6 +1 level of existing class 3 +2 +1/+3/+1 Selune’s sight +1 level of existing class 4 +3 +1/+4/+1 sneak attack +2d6 +1 level of existing class 5 +3 +1/+4/+1 Mystra’s boon +1 level of existing class Weapon proficiency = you are able to use all simple and martial weapons, as well as light armour and bucklers Death attack = the Harper Avenger’s death attack works like the assassin’s one, except that the max DC that can be reached is obviously lower (since the max class level is 5) Mielikki’s speed = when wearing light armour or no armour, your base speed improves by 10 feet Selune’s sight = you get low light vision or, if you already have it, its range doubles Mystra’s boon = the Harper Avenger receives a +2 cognitive bonus to all his saving throws against any magical effect What do you think about these prestige classes? Are they balanced? Do they respect the background of the Harpers? Is the Harper Avenger overpowered? Would they be good for the 3.5 edition? Thanks a lot.:)
Steelwind 05-18-07, 12:43 PM	Looks good but you forgot the 1st lvl ability of every harper PrC, Harper Knowledge. And dont forget the Any Nonevil requirement.
Mr. Master 05-18-07, 05:20 PM	You are right,I should have remembered about those 2 important things... I've some doubts particularly about the Harper Avenger,because he seems pretty similar to the Harper Mage but with the addition of sneak attack and death attack.
The_Shaman 05-19-07, 07:21 AM	I'm a little sceptical about the knight... Harpers seem to focus more on stealth and on being inobtrusive than on brute force, so if there were a particular brand of warriors typical to the organization I'd suggest lighter armor proficiencies and more skill points (harpers tend to be quite skilled). As for the avenger, it is quite good... I think the organization, given its ties to a few churches, might more likely make use of divine seekers for the missions requiring particular stealth - and perhaps a few stabs in someone's back. Alternatively, it can be a great way to introduce my favourite CAdv PrCs - the nightsong enforcer (er, you might want to change the "enforcer") and nightsong infiltrator - in the mix.
Mr. Master 05-20-07, 08:29 AM	Uhm,maybe giving the Harper Knight 4 skill points peach level and 4 more skills would be a good idea...what skills would you suggest?However,the concept behind the Harper Knight creation is that even the Harpers sometimes need brute strength:you can't fight against a band of Zhentarims with 6 skill points each level! As for the avenger,I wanted a PrC more strictly linked to the Harpers.The divine seeker,given its link to a church,would be more likely to help that church's interests,thant the Harpers' ones.
theartistformerlyknownas 05-23-07, 12:31 AM	I would switch the Death attack to 5th level on the avenger. Otherwise solid.
The_Shaman 05-23-07, 04:52 AM	Uhm,maybe giving the Harper Knight 4 skill points peach level and 4 more skills would be a good idea...what skills would you suggest?However,the concept behind the Harper Knight creation is that even the Harpers sometimes need brute strength:you can't fight against a band of Zhentarims with 6 skill points each level! Off the top of my head... Diplomacy, sense motive, intimidate, maybe some knowledges. However, I would prefer a slightly different "muscle" for the Harpers, one with a more stealthy feel or at least able not to stick out - i.e. something along the lines of the (urban) ranger or the swashbuckler. Also, consider substituting Iron will for WF; it's an iconic feat for the harper classes, and not so useless as the blasted alertness. As for the avenger,I wanted a PrC more strictly linked to the Harpers.The divine seeker,given its link to a church,would be more likely to help that church's interests,thant the Harpers' ones. True, although Harpers tend to have VERY good relations with several deities and their cults, so I would not be surprised if they had more than a few seekers in their (part-time) ranks. I do not know if they have enough of an assassin-ish tradition to warrant a particular class, mind you - and here we are talking about agents that are much better at killing someone outright that the average high-level rogue. Maybe it could be a special effect rather than death attack... I.e. silencing attack or AMF effect to better represent their magical training. Also, consider nerfing the spellcasting progression - +2d6 SA and 5/5 of any casting can be quite good. You could compensate for that with a good will save.
Steelwind 05-23-07, 08:19 AM	I dont know if its just me but I dont believe that ANY harper PrC should have a weak will save, no matter how good or bad their specific class abilities are, it should just be a given.
Mr. Master 05-23-07, 05:23 PM	x Steelwind: Uhm,as for the Harper Knight I could switch one of the good ST from Ref to Will. As for the Harper Avenger,see the answer below. x The_Shaman: I know that +2d6 SA and 5/5 spell progression is a strong thing,but I wished to create a sort of mix between the spellcasting Harpers' PRC and the Harper Agent.I could give a 3/5 spell progression (no spell progression at 2nd and 4th level) and a good Will ST,but I don't know if it would be such a good thing. As for the different feeling for the Harper Knight,I don't agree with you because,when I created this prestige class,I had in mind a sort of faerunian Space Marine:a strong warrior with good strategic skills and very hard to defeat face to face,not a sushi Tau.:)
The_Shaman 05-23-07, 06:07 PM	@MrMaster: I have an idea you wanted to create a heavier warrior, I just don't know why or how the harpers would have a specific tradition of using those that would warrant a particular PrC. IMO, they have no problem recruiting or using fighters, paladins, crusaders, or whatever you have in the Realms, it's just that their particular expertise lies elsewhere. I consider the Harper classes to represent areas in which they have a unique and special focus and, well, "steel-plated basher" doesn't seem to tie in with what I know of them. Just my idea, though... I don't find a serious mechanical problem with the class itself, if you're adamant on using it. Perhaps a good will save instead of reflex, to be honest, and the feat isse I've already pointed at.
Mr. Master 05-24-07, 06:17 AM	So how could this Prc be modified if it has to be made more similar to the urban ranger or the swashbuckler (I suppose you're talking about 2 3.5 classes,since here in 3.0 I haven't seen them)? As for the Harper Avenger,I was thinking about giving him its own spell list, instead of just giving him a 3/5 spell progression.I think that taking some spells from the wizard's,cleric's and assassin's spell list would be good,but I'm still working on them.
Drew1369r 05-24-07, 06:28 PM	The spell progression for the avenger I would nix as well as its own spell list as it just ties into the assassin PrC the death attack is iffy because alot of gods view killing someone in that matter an evil act.
Mr. Master 05-25-07, 04:13 PM	A lot,but not ALL the good guys. And killing someone with one single hit it's not an evil thing in itself:there's no difference,in fact,with killing someone with 2 or 3 spells or 4 rounds of sword fighting.What's the difference?The result it's the same one:enemy's death (and,if D&D was not focused on hit points,you could kill someone with just one good slash of your trusted battle axe,as it should be in real life). The evil thing is to kill someone just for money of for the pleasure of looking into the eyes of your victim.If you kill the wizard that's making magical experiments with those poor gnomes or the brutal orc battle lord that wants to destroy Silverymoon or the dragon that has caused so muchs suffering and pain (and wants to provoke them again after a month or two of sleeping),well...you are doing a good thing.
The_Shaman 05-26-07, 01:35 PM	So how could this Prc be modified if it has to be made more similar to the urban ranger or the swashbuckler (I suppose you're talking about 2 3.5 classes,since here in 3.0 I haven't seen them)? As for the Harper Avenger,I was thinking about giving him its own spell list, instead of just giving him a 3/5 spell progression.I think that taking some spells from the wizard's,cleric's and assassin's spell list would be good,but I'm still working on them. The Urban ranger you can find at d20srd.org, in the Variant // classes section. Luckily, almost all of Unearthed arcana is open gaming license. If you are using 3.0, you might be able to reconfigure some of what you see there. Generally speaking, both classes tend to use somewhat lighter armors, and have more skills. The rest is optional ;)