Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Valgard 04-28-08, 09:54 AM	Advancing in the 4th Edition Excerpts: Angels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080428a) We've introduced devils; this time, we wanted to take a look at angels. We asked R&D's Jennifer Clarke Wilkes how 4th Edition angels are different from any ever seen before--in both appearance and backstory. Her response: When was the last time your party took on an angel? For most players, the answer is probably “never”. Even the least of them, the astral deva, is a very powerful opponent—and, of course, there’s that sticky problem of their being good-with-a-capital-G creatures. D&D characters are supposed to be heroes, and heroes don’t fight the good guys, right? Not only angels, but a variety of other good divine servants populated the Great Wheel of earlier editions. An urge toward symmetry produced an Outer Plane for every shade of alignment, and that meant planar denizens of matching alignment. Thus, archons were lawful good, guardinals were neutral good, and eladrins were chaotic good. (In fact, until the 3.5 version of the Monster Manual, the word “angel” did not appear in the game.) Meanwhile, evil gods were served by . . . nobody. Sure, there were demons and devils, but they had their own agendas and paid little attention to what the gods were up to—whether good or evil. This left the evil gods with assorted minions and cultists, unless they made alliances with fiends. What would stand against adventurers who dared Hextor or Vecna on his home turf? Evil creatures might live in Pandemonium, but they had nothing to do with Erythnul. In a strange way, this arrangement meant that a demon lord such as Orcus or an archdevil such as Asmodeus could muster an army of servants and actually present a greater challenge to high-level characters than gods. Something was wrong with that picture. Reconcepting some of the iconic monsters of the D&D game went hand in glove with our intent to revamp the setting, in addition to the game mechanics, so as to maximize playability and fun. One of the goals of monster development for the new edition was to better distinguish monster groups. All those shades of niceness didn’t do much to clearly identify the various servants of good, nor did those creatures embody specific principles in the way that different sorts of fiends often did. We decided that every god needed to have servants, and making angels those servants seemed the logical step. (Demons and devils might still work with evil gods, but they do not serve them.) Removing alignment restrictions from angels also meant that they could embody new ideas. The word “angel” means “messenger”—why couldn’t one bring a message of war, or pain, or vengeance, as well as those of hope or protection? (And, of course, snuggles.) A god of generally good alignment might still have need of an angel to bring death to enemies; an evil god could require an envoy to inspire loyalty and bravery. Now an angel can lead any deity’s armies, whether of lesser angels, immortal creatures or powerful mortal champions, and can project its divine will into other realms. The weaker angels are heroic-tier monsters, suitable as temple guardians and mortal commanders. The more powerful are effective challenges at the paragon and epic tiers, standing by the side of their deities. (Along the way, some things that were once angel-like changed their natures, most notably the eladrin, who now are the lords of the Feywild.) The change in angels’ nature paved the way to a change in appearance as well. Angels became less humanoid in appearance, more like impartial embodiments of immortal power. They are faceless, sometimes metallic or stonelike in form, trailing into Astral essence. No halos here—these are beings created by the gods for a purpose, rather than anthropomorphic images of comfort and purity. They are uncaring and relentless, and their new look reinforces that aspect. Most deities have angel servants. Although their appearances can vary, all angels are vaguely humanoid in form, with masculine or feminine features and lower bodies that trail off into flowing energy. Angels exist as expressions of the Astral Sea, sentient energy in humanoid form. They most often serve the gods, so some believe that the gods created them. In reality, angels are powerful astral beings who appeared during the first moments of the creation of the Astral Sea. Different types of angels have different callings; they are literally manifestations of celestial vocations. Perhaps it was the needs of the gods that caused the astral stuff to spew them forth, but it was not a conscious act of creation. During the great war between the gods and the primordials, angels offered themselves as warriors to the gods that best encompassed their callings, and today they continue to act as mercenary forces for anyone willing to meet their price—be it wealth, or power, or a cause worthy of their attention. Angels are more involved in the world and other planes than deities and exarchs. They act both openly and secretly, often acting as emissaries, generals, and even assassins. Angel of Valor Angels of valor, though courageous and fierce, are the weakest and the most numerous of angels called to serve a given deity. Angel of Valor Level 8 Soldier Medium immortal humanoid (angel) XP 350 Initiative +10 Senses Perception +6 Angelic Presence Attacks against the angel of valor take a –2 penalty until the angel is bloodied. HP 88; Bloodied 44 AC 24; Fortitude 22, Reflex 20, Will 19 Immune fear; Resist 10 fire, 10 radiant Speed 6, fly 9 (hover) Melee Longsword (standard; at-will) Weapon +13 vs. AC; 1d8 + 6 damage. Melee Dagger (standard; at-will) Weapon +13 vs. AC; 1d4 + 6 damage. Melee Blade Fury (standard; at-will) Weapon The angel of valor makes a longsword attack and a dagger attack. Close Burst Lightning Strike (standard; encounter) Lightning Close burst 1; targets enemies; +11 vs. Fortitude; 1d8 + 4 lightning damage, and the target is dazed until the end of the angel of valor’s next turn. Fiery Blades (minor, usable only while bloodied; at-will) Fire Until the start of the angel of valor’s next turn, the angel of valor’s weapons deal fire damage and attack the target’s Reflex defense instead of AC. Alignment Any Languages Supernal Skills Intimidate +12 Str 23 (+10) Dex 18 (+8) Wis 14 (+6) Con 16 (+7) Int 11 (+4) Cha 16 (+7) Equipment chainmail, longsword, dagger Angel of Vengeance Angels of vengeance strike down those who wrong a deity. They also punish disloyalty and failure among the devout. Angel of Vengeance Level 19 Elite Brute Large immortal humanoid (angel) XP 4800 Initiative +13 Senses Perception +16 HP 446; Bloodied 223 AC 34; Fortitude 33, Reflex 29, Will 33; see also cloak of vengeance Immune disease, fear; Resist 15 cold, 15 fire, 15 radiant; see also coldfire pillar Saving Throws +2 Speed 8, fly 12 (hover); see also sign of vengeance Action Points 1 Melee Longsword (standard; at-will) Cold, Fire, Weapon Reach 2; +25 vs. AC; 1d10 + 9 damage plus 1d8 fire damage plus 1d8 cold damage. Melee Double Attack (standard; at-will) Cold, Fire, Weapon The angel of vengeance makes two longsword attacks. Ranged Sign of Vengeance (minor; encounter) Teleportation Ranged sight; the angel of vengeance places an invisible sign upon the target. Until the end of the encounter, as a move action, the angel can teleport adjacent to the target. Close Burst Coldfire Pillar (free, when first bloodied; encounter) Cold, Fire, Polymorph The angel transforms into a 30-foot-high pillar of blue flame. Close burst 2; +23 vs. Reflex; 1d8 + 9 cold damage plus 1d8 + 9 fire damage. The angel of vengeance is immune to all damage until the start of its next turn. Cloak of Vengeance (until bloodied) Cold, Fire Attacks against the angel of vengeance take a –2 penalty until the angel is bloodied. While cloak of vengeance is in effect, a creature that makes a successful melee attack against the angel takes 1d8 fire damage and 1d8 cold damage. Alignment Any Languages Supernal Skills Insight +21, Intimidate +22 Str 27 (+17) Dex 18 (+13) Wis 25 (+16) Con 23 (+15) Int 19 (+13) Cha 26 (+17) Equipment plate armor, 2 longswords Angel of Vengeance Tactics An angel of vengeance focuses on a single target. It evokes its sign of vengeance at the start of battle, then teleports to the target and spends an action point to use double attack against the foe. The angel continues its relentless pursuit of the target, paying little heed to events around it. Angel of Vengeance Lore A character knows the following information with a successful Religion check. DC 20: Deities send angels of vengeance to punish those who have defied or angered them. A god might also send an angel of vengeance to test one who is in danger of falling off the deity’s path, showing no mercy for failure. DC 25: Influential members of a clergy use a ritual to call forth their deity’s wrath in the form of one of these angels. Encounter Groups Angels of vengeance appear alone or in pairs, sometimes aided by angels of valor or angels of battle. Level 19 Encounter (XP 13,600) * 2 angels of vengeance (level 19 elite brute) * 5 angel of valor legionnaires (level 21 minion) Be sure to return Wednesday for a look at multiclassing! I had a couple of ideas in how this is gonna change the Realms, but one that stroke me harder... How will Malkizid be characterized if there aren't solars anymore? Will he be a fallen Angel of Vengeance from the Feywild? Was he always evil? Does he die prior to 4E so the stuff can ignore all about him?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-28-08, 11:14 AM	They keep saying "PCs are supposed to be heroes, and therefore wouldn't fight good creatures", but I disagree with that! It's not written anywhere that PCs have to be good, or even that goodly creatures could never fight each other. That being said, I agree with the points made about "forced symmetry." I'll read this article, to the end (can't right now) and then likely comment on it later.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-28-08, 12:13 PM	All right, I read through it. The article told me pretty much what I had expected--can't say I was surprised by anything, as I read about the angel concept already, months back, when I got the Worlds and Monsters preview book. Nice art, and I like the idea of a language called Supernal.:)
Stigger 04-28-08, 01:21 PM	Meh, can't stand 4e's planar stuff thus far...
Jiggawha 04-28-08, 02:04 PM	When was the last time your party took on an angel? For most players, the answer is probably “never”. Even the least of them, the astral deva, is a very powerful opponent—and, of course, there’s that sticky problem of their being good-with-a-capital-G creatures. D&D characters are supposed to be heroes, and heroes don’t fight the good guys, right? Not only angels, but a variety of other good divine servants populated the Great Wheel of earlier editions. An urge toward symmetry produced an Outer Plane for every shade of alignment, and that meant planar denizens of matching alignment. Thus, archons were lawful good, guardinals were neutral good, and eladrins were chaotic good. (In fact, until the 3.5 version of the Monster Manual, the word “angel” did not appear in the game.) Meanwhile, evil gods were served by . . . nobody. Sure wow, lmao, lack of imagination and ignorance it seems that the 4e designers never played a decent planar game
Alediran 04-28-08, 02:21 PM	wow, lmao, lack of imagination and ignorance it seems that the 4e designers never played a decent planar game I haven't played one yet but I agree with you.
18DELTA 04-28-08, 10:37 PM	-I kinda like it. Yes...lets fight Bane's Angel of Death!!!! Or...Cyric's Angel of Death!!!! Or how about...Lathander's Angel of Death!!!! Now I am going to have to listen to Slayer tonight!:D 18D:P
Zanan 04-29-08, 04:41 AM	The more I read on this 4E ranking and all, the less I like it. "Angel of Valor Level 8 Soldier" - Angel a "soldier"? "Medium immortal humanoid (angel)" - Immortal? HEck, every decent swordwielder or mage will test that, I gather. "Angel of Vengeance - Level 19 Elite Brute" - Well, that takes the biscuit. Angel and brute in the same context. Minion, soldier, brute ... who came up with this? How can the latter be set into relation to angels or anything that walks on two feet and looks like e.g. an astral deva? IMHO, the felt necessity to rename certain things for a new edition simply went over the top here. But maybe the younger generation of gamers feels different about this.
Valgard 04-29-08, 04:50 AM	They keep saying "PCs are supposed to be heroes, and therefore wouldn't fight good creatures", but I disagree with that! It's not written anywhere that PCs have to be good, or even that goodly creatures could never fight each other. That being said, I agree with the points made about "forced symmetry."wow, lmao, lack of imagination and ignorance it seems that the 4e designers never played a decent planar game I agree with both. When I read the sentence 'PCs are the primary butt-kickers of evil' I thought 'Are you saying that all good gods and forces in the multiverse are just waiting for 1st level heores to do their work?'. They took out the Blood War, they have probably taken away the archons, the guardinals and the inevitables (the best planar stuff), the eladrin are now high elves... I agree with the lack of forced simmetry, but this is just ridiculous. Minion, soldier, brute ... who came up with this?They are just the names of the new NPC/Monster classes... yes, they aren't chosen very well. I also find odd that a supposed superb angel is considered a "brute".
Fabius Maximus 04-29-08, 07:21 AM	They are just the names of the new NPC/Monster classes... yes, they aren't chosen very well. I also find odd that a supposed superb angel is considered a "brute". I don't think that's so bad. Consider Loki from Dogma for a moment. Former Vengeance Angel, not very bright, but does his job - killing stuff - very well. He's a typical brute: not very good in thinking on his own, does what he's told to, and relishes in it.
Valgard 04-29-08, 09:55 AM	I don't think that's so bad. Consider Loki from Dogma for a moment. Former Vengeance Angel, not very bright, but does his job - killing stuff - very well. He's a typical brute: not very good in thinking on his own, does what he's told to, and relishes in it.I didn't see it that way. When I hear (or read) the word 'brute' the image of a hulking monster ready to destroy things with his bare hands comes to my mind, but angels (at least in their 4th Edition context) are just that, cold agents of their deity. Theirs not to make reply, theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die (Yes, I remind the poem I cite in my sig). A soldier is also intended to do that, to do what he's told to but to make no replies, but instead for lack of reasoning, it is because of discipline. I think the idea of making to separate roles with these names aren't in terms of intelligence or allegiance. Brutes are probably intended to be solo encounters while soldiers are intended to be part of group encounters.
Skeptical Clown 04-29-08, 11:38 AM	I assume that "brute" is simply a fighting style used by a monster--probably a type of monster that is either unusually large or exceptionally strong for its level. In contrast to a "soldier" who might be more well-rounded as a fighter. They're generic enough names; I see nothing to complain about.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-29-08, 11:46 AM	-I kinda like it. Yes...lets fight Bane's Angel of Death!!!! Or...Cyric's Angel of Death!!!! Or how about...Lathander's Angel of Death!!!! Now I am going to have to listen to Slayer tonight!:D 18D:P None of them would hold a candle to this angel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqi5F5MqqTQ).:) Now that's an encounter *I* would have fun with!:eek:
18DELTA 04-29-08, 05:57 PM	None of them would hold a candle to this angel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqi5F5MqqTQ).:) Now that's an encounter *I* would have fun with!:eek: -:eek: :OMG! :eek: Creepy! I kinda like it! -Now the brute=High damage and alot of hit points, and low AC. The Soldier=Medium to low damage and hit points, but very high AC. Didnt they say that in the preview books? Thats the way I have played it in 3.5. The concept has allways been out there. They(WotC) have made the concept more concrete.;) 18D:P
Straploknight 04-29-08, 11:16 PM	"Medium immortal humanoid (angel)" - Immortal? HEck, every decent swordwielder or mage will test that, I gather. Lol, in a round about way, 300 FTW!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-30-08, 11:54 AM	-:eek: :OMG! :eek: Creepy! I kinda like it! I love it.:) It makes you think, and would be a great type of an encounter for a game that was meant to be on the thoughtful/philosophical side.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-04-08, 10:56 AM	Nice art, and I like the idea of a language called Supernal.:) I rather prefer White Wolf's use of the word myself.
Shemeska the Marauder 05-04-08, 11:02 AM	Meanwhile, evil gods were served by . . . nobody. That would be a compelling point for making the 4e angel, if only it weren't grossly false. Having unique servitor races for specific evil deities rather than one single, monolithic race of divine servitors isn't the same as saying those evil gods weren't served by anyone. Hell, the MMIV had a unique servitor race for Erythnul (windblades) and that's a 3.5 source, not something from an earlier edition even. Moving away from unique servitors tailored to specific gods and making them all dip into some common homogenous pool of divine servitors is a step backwards IMO, and it seems to be more of the same "useless symmetry" that 4e has complained about being present in earlier editions.
Stigger 05-04-08, 11:37 AM	So true... gods knows nature never has any redundant species because the world just doesn't work that way...
Zanan 05-04-08, 02:18 PM	Thanks to Shemeska to lay his finger (or respective bodypart) on this: WotC Meanwhile, evil gods were served by . . . nobody. Sure, there were demons and devils, but they had their own agendas and paid little attention to what the gods were up to—whether good or evil. This left the evil gods with assorted minions and cultists, unless they made alliances with fiends. What would stand against adventurers who dared Hextor or Vecna on his home turf? Evil creatures might live in Pandemonium, but they had nothing to do with Erythnul. In a strange way, this arrangement meant that a demon lord such as Orcus or an archdevil such as Asmodeus could muster an army of servants and actually present a greater challenge to high-level characters than gods. Something was wrong with that picture. Now wait, does that mean that there are no yochlols as prime servitor creatures of Lolth any longer? The whole story published as recently as in Fiendish Codex I being ignored and/or retconned? I doubt that Lolth made any deals with fiends here either. Well, well ...
18DELTA 05-04-08, 04:59 PM	Thanks to Shemeska to lay his finger (or respective bodypart) on this: WotC Now wait, does that mean that there are no yochlols as prime servitor creatures of Lolth any longer? The whole story published as recently as in Fiendish Codex I being ignored and/or retconned? I doubt that Lolth made any deals with fiends here either. Well, well ... -Watch them become a type of angel.:rolleyes: Are they not a strain of Demon in this edition and previous editions? Maybe we should ask Richard Baker about it. 18D;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-04-08, 09:55 PM	Indeed, that article doesn't quite have all it's facts straight.
MaskedOne 05-04-08, 10:42 PM	Indeed, that article doesn't quite have all it's facts straight. Am I being overly prejudiced when I say that the article as an argument for one of the various 4E lore modifications, conclusions drawn from innacurate and/or non-existent data are guaranteed and should be expected. I am a little (extremely might be a better word) biased here, should I give WotC more credit when it comes to non-FR material?
Stigger 05-05-08, 01:26 AM	I'd say no... the current generation of designers seem far more interested in crunch, and disinterested at best in the lore that's come before... to the point that they don't seem to mind getting it wrong on a disturbingly frequent basis...
Zanan 05-05-08, 04:46 PM	I am a little (extremely might be a better word) biased here, should I give WotC more credit when it comes to non-FR material? As a sidenote: the yochlol as described in the Fiendish Codex I are very Core-ish indeed. We know them best from the various FR novels and PF games, but they first appeared in Vault of the Drow (or something alike of the early 1980s) and the FC had them firmly set in the Core "setting" - including large chunks of texts about their pedigree. And this material is barely a year old.
Stigger 05-06-08, 01:20 AM	Yes, but its from that horrible 3e that was in no way cool OR sick... ;) :D I really shouldn't say things like that, but I can't help it for some reason...
Keryth 05-08-08, 11:04 AM	Wel, this whole article screams to me "We want to be able to fight EVERYTHING in the Monster Manual, but GMs don;t let us fight upper Planar creatures, so we'll change it!" Evil angels = devils. Maybe I'm too christian, or too Dresden Files/Buffy. And as for their not getting things right about servants of evil deities, well, that's typical. Theyre only looking for excuses anyhow, not legitamite reasons for anything.
Alediran 05-08-08, 01:26 PM	Wel, this whole article screams to me "We want to be able to fight EVERYTHING in the Monster Manual, but GMs don;t let us fight upper Planar creatures, so we'll change it!" Evil angels = devils. Maybe I'm too christian, or too Dresden Files/Buffy. And as for their not getting things right about servants of evil deities, well, that's typical. Theyre only looking for excuses anyhow, not legitamite reasons for anything. I'm not even that Christian but I also belive that Angels are servants and concepts of Good. World of Darkness treats Angels, Devils and other divine figures as Spirits (ranked from 1 to 10, spirits ranked 5 or more are gods).
Keryth 05-08-08, 03:37 PM	I'm not even that Christian but I also belive that Angels are servants and concepts of Good. World of Darkness treats Angels, Devils and other divine figures as Spirits (ranked from 1 to 10, spirits ranked 5 or more are gods). Hence my stating I've perhaps seen too much Buffy and read too much Dresden Files. Actualy, Angels are ALWAYS the good guys, unless their Fallen. Even the Nightside novels do that. Like I said, it just smacks to me of a need to make EVERYTHING killable by PC's
Skeptical Clown 05-09-08, 11:20 AM	I can appreciate that creatures can be used in unconventional ways, but I can easily understand the perspective that WOTC is coming from. D&D is not primarily fiction but a game, and when designing a core product like the Monster Manual, you have a limited amount of space to devote to creatures. They have a balancing act to maintain between classic and popular creatures that people will want covered and new monsters that they have ideas for, as well as between monsters that are easy to use versus those that are not. So at the end of the day they decided that Angels were iconic enough to merit coverage, but they felt that their roles needed to be expanded to justify spending time on them instead of on some other, perhaps more conventional monster. Page space is a rare commodity. I don't consider this a bad thing; I've been running 3rd edition games for like seven years, and even when I've made use of angels in campaigns, I've never once needed to pull out their statistics. Now these angels seem like they could pretty easily fill the same role they once did, but they also have some additional flexibility as enemy agents.
Alediran 05-09-08, 01:23 PM	Angels are excellent companions for Good-Aligned Wizards who don't want to compromize their integrity by summoning Lower Planes creatures.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-09-08, 06:55 PM	I'm not even that Christian but I also belive that Angels are servants and concepts of Good. Yes, well, not the one in my link.;)
Stigger 05-09-08, 08:37 PM	Not Christian at all... can't say calling them servitors of deities of alignments other than good, presuming I read that right, really bothers me. Now if they redefined Solars and the rest of the Aasimon, then I'd have a problem with it. Angel is such a generic word to me I can't say it makes much difference.
Rauric 05-09-08, 10:39 PM	In our world angels supposedly went around killing kids because a certain god wanted it to happen. That smacks of an evil act to me.
Alter_Boy 05-10-08, 12:12 AM	That would be a compelling point for making the 4e angel, if only it weren't grossly false. Having unique servitor races for specific evil deities rather than one single, monolithic race of divine servitors isn't the same as saying those evil gods weren't served by anyone. Hell, the MMIV had a unique servitor race for Erythnul (windblades) and that's a 3.5 source, not something from an earlier edition even. C'mon. 1) The book says they worship Erythnul, not work as his personal hit squad. 2) Unmodified, they range from CR 1 to CR 4. Don't you think Erythnul needs something a bit tougher? If Garl Glittergold relied solely on gnomes, he'd be floating upside down in the Astral Plane by now. Please post your opinions, but don't assume WotC designers lack experience in running games.
Lord Karsus 05-11-08, 05:24 PM	If Garl Glittergold relied solely on gnomes, he'd be floating upside down in the Astral Plane by now. -Why's that? -Anyway, concerning the talk of Angels and whatnot...Malach HaMavet.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 05-11-08, 06:34 PM	Please post your opinions, but don't assume WotC designers lack experience in running games. No one said that.