Post/Author/DateTime	Post
18DELTA 04-14-08, 01:21 PM	4th Edition Monster Manual Excerpts: Devils of 4th Edition (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080414a) Only a scant few weeks remain until 4th Edition finally hits the shelves! We here at Wizards of the Coast couldn’t be more excited for June 6th to finally arrive (and then to participate with everyone at June 7th’s Worldwide D&D Game Day). For the past several months, we’ve introduced you to many of the concepts, philosophies, and details of 4th Edition, via D&D Insider’s columns and articles. So in the short time we have remaining, we wanted to share with you a little more, publishing excerpts from the three core rulebooks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, leading up to 4th Edition’s release. Today, we take a look inside the Monster Manual, at devils in general, and two in particular: one a battlefield general, the other a tempting seductress. We hope you enjoy, and be sure to return this Wednesday for excerpts from the Player’s Handbook, and Friday for a look inside the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Malevolent and corrupt, devils are the rebellious servants of the gods now living in the Nine Hells, one of the darkest dominions on the Astral Sea. Devils come in many varieties, from the sly imp to the mighty archdevils known as the Lords of the Nine, each a ruler of one of the Nine Hells. The greatest of these infernal lords is the god Asmodeus, prince of Nessus, the ninth hell. Long ago, Asmodeus was a powerful divine servant who chose to rebel against the god he served. At the head of an army of like-minded creatures, Asmodeus slew his divine master. For their betrayal, he and his followers were cursed with monstrous forms and imprisoned within the fuming ruin of the murdered god’s dominion. Devils can leave the Nine Hells, but it is very difficult for them to do so. They can be sent forth by mighty archdevils through costly infernal magic, or travel through rare and well-hidden magical portals (usually only a few at a time when conditions are right). However, most devils outside of the Nine Hells have been brought to the natural world by evil mortals employing dark rituals. Devils lust for the souls of mortals; each mortal spirit devils enslave undermines the gods’ sway over mortalkind and adds to the Nine Hells’ power. Devils torment and consume captured souls to fuel the mightiest of their infernal works, including evil constructs and terrible invocations. Devils compete fiercely to gather souls in order to earn favor and status within the infernal order, but they all work together toward the common goal of gathering souls for the Nine Hells. Some devils seek to drive mortals into surrendering their souls through tyranny, despair, or terror; some seek to destroy the servants of good-aligned gods and tear down their works; and still others are tempters and deceivers who inflame mortal ambition, desire, greed, or pride. Long ago, Asmodeus and his vassals forged dark pacts with various evil deities. Devils are therefore commonly found serving Bane, Gruumsh, Tiamat, Torog, and Vecna. Devils carefully honor their bargains—but they are extremely good at giving reckless mortals exactly what they ask for, and few of those who bargain with devils escape the final payment. A Primer to the Nine Hells The Nine Hells form a single dominion on the Astral Sea. Black smoke surrounds them, and beyond this choking veil broods a great, volcanic world whose surface is a blasted plain of ash and jagged stone. This is Avernus, the first of the Nine Hells, where embers rain down from a sunless sky and iron fortresses rise up between rivers of magma. Astral vessels approaching too closely find themselves plummeting through the skies of Avernus rather than sailing in the Astral Sea, landing in the Nine Hells with a great fiery impact. A helmsman of great skill can sometimes negotiate the passage and alight on the ashen plain safely, but the only sure way to avoid fiery disaster is to find the astral influence of the River Styx and follow it down through the basalt cliffs. The Styx cuts a jagged course across Avernus and eventually plunges down into the lower Hells—each one a tremendous continent-sized cavern within the roiling world. In January, Bill Slavicsek unveiled those nobles of the Nine Hells, the pit fiends. Back then, we had only concept art to provide of this foul brute—today, we present the finished art… along with a visual look back at the pit fiend throughout the game’s history. 1st Edition 2nd Edition 2nd Edition 3rd Edition Miniature 4th Edition Avernus, the first Hell, forms the surface of this terrible dominion. It’s a volcanic domain strewn with the blood and wreckage of a million battles. Fireballs plunge from the smoke-filled sky. The archdevil Bel, a military genius, protects and rules Avernus from a towering iron citadel. A great iron gate in a mountainside of Avernus leads to Dis, the second Hell. Dis is an iron-walled city that lies within a vast cavern, sprawling unevenly amid the cavern’s jagged, mountainous floor. Dispater, the ruler of this Hell, is famous as the most cautious and calculating of the archdevils. The cavern of Dis gradually descends and broadens into the great, low, brooding vault of Minauros, the Third Hell. A constant oily rain pelts down from the ceiling, and the black soil of Minauros is a vast series of mud flats, swamps, and mires, some heated into bubbling, stinking mud volcanoes by the heat rising from below. The serpentine and supremely boastful archdevil Mammon rules here. Phlegethos, the fourth Hell, lies far below its predecessors. Dank steps cut into the stinking fumaroles of Minauros lead down several miles to a fiery cavern, where the air ripples with heat distortion and cascades of lava pour down from volcanic fissures in the ceiling miles overhead. The ambitious archdevil Fierna presides, with her grim father Belial as the true power behind the throne. Stygia lies as deep as Phlegethos, but is many hundreds of miles away from its fiery neighbor—it underlies Dis, and dismal stairs of ice and iron link the two. The fifth Hell is cold and dark. Within Stygia’s cavern lies a vast frozen sea dotted with towering icebergs. Faint auroras of green-blue frostfire dance far above the sea, casting long shadows. Imprisoned within one of these mighty bergs is the archdevil Levistus, trapped forever by Asmodeus for some great betrayal. Asmodeus’s daughter, the fiendishly beautiful Glasya, rules Malbolge, the sixth Hell. Long, icy canals lead hundreds of miles from frozen Stygia to this great cavern, illuminated by sinister yellow-green lamps suspended from the ceiling like tiny suns. Long ago Malbolge was a vast garden, the delight of the deity who ruled this sphere before Asmodeus, but now its superficial beauty cannot hide a feculent underbelly: autumnal trees with grasping roots, beautiful white towers with corpses impaled on their battlements, shimmering ponds with poisoned waters, and the like. Maladomini, the seventh Hell, is a tremendous maze of winding tunnels, each miles across. These passages reach several of the lower Hells, including Malbolge, Cania, and Nessus. Within these vast tunnels lie crumbling cities, sludge-filled rivers, and vast tracts of land mined to absolute depletion. Black ichor erupts from the earth, and swarms of flies harry all. Here rules the archdevil Baalzebul, a sluglike monstrosity bereft of compassion. The icy layer of Stygia seems like a paradise compared to Cania, the eighth Hell. This vast gulf deep within the world is another cold domain, where mile-high glaciers grind across a forbidding landscape so cold that few creatures can bear it. The wickedly handsome archdevil Mephistopheles rules Cania from a palace of ice lit with crackling hellfire. The darkest of Cania’s rifts plunge hundreds of miles further down to Nessus, the ninth and deepest of the Hells. This is home to the god-tyrant Asmodeus, father of all devils. Nessus is a vast, vertical maze of chasms so large and so deep they are rooted in the seething fires at the core of the cursed sphere. Great infernal cities and fiendish armies lie hidden within these fiery depths. Succubus Succubi tempt mortals into performing evil deeds, using their shapechanging abilities to appear as attractive men and women. Although seduction and betrayal are their forte, succubi are also practiced spies and assassins. Succubi serve more powerful devils as scouts, advisors, and even concubines. Because of their guile and shapechanging ability, they are frequently chosen to serve as infernal emissaries to important mortals. Succubus Level 9 Controller Medium immortal humanoid (devil, shapechanger) XP 400 Initiative +8 Senses Perception +8; darkvision HP 90; Bloodied 45 AC 23; Fortitude 17, Reflex 21, Will 23 Resist 20 fire Speed 6, fly 6 (m) Corrupting Touch (standard; at-will) +14 vs. AC; 1d6 + 6 damage. (m) Charming Kiss (standard; at-will) * Charm +14 vs. AC; on a hit, the succubus makes a secondary attack against the same target. Secondary Attack: +12 vs. Will; the target cannot attack the succubus, and if the target is adjacent to the succubus when the succubus is targeted by a melee or a ranged attack, the target interposes itself and becomes the target of the attack instead. The effects last until the succubus or one of its allies attacks the target or until the succubus dies. If the target is still under the effect of this power at the end of the encounter, the succubus can sustain the effect indefinitely by kissing the target once per day. The succubus can affect only one target at a time with its charming kiss. (r) Dominate (standard; at-will) * Charm Ranged 5; +12 vs. Will; the target is dominated until the end of the succubus’s next turn. Change Shape (minor; at-will) * Polymorph The succubus can alter its physical form to take on the appearance of any Medium humanoid, including a unique individual (see Change Shape, page 280). Alignment Evil Languages Common, Supernal Skills Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Insight +13 Str 11 (+4) Dex 18 (+8) Wis 19 (+8) Con 10 (+4) Int 15 (+6) Cha 22 (+10) Succubus Tactics When exposed for what it is, a succubus can be a deadly foe. It can manipulate the emotions of mortal adversaries, turning them against each other or making them slavishly loyal to it with a mere kiss. A succubus that is confronted uses dominate on a worthy adversary. It then uses charming kiss on a dominated foe, keeping him or her nearby while it attacks other enemies with its corrupting touch. Level 9 Encounter (XP 2,000) 1 succubus (level 9 controller) 2 snaketongue assassins (level 9 lurker) 2 crushgrip constrictors (level 9 soldier) War Devil Champions of the Nine Hells, war devils obey only pit fiends and archdevils. They also lead lesser devils in forays against those who stand in the way of their masters’ plans. War devils brought to the mortal world sometimes arise as warmasters or generals, leading the armies of evil mortal tyrants. War Devil (Malebranche) Level 22 Brute (Leader) Large immortal humanoid (devil) XP 4,150 Initiative +17 Senses Perception +15; darkvision HP 255; Bloodied 127 AC 35; Fortitude 34, Reflex 32, Will 30 Resist 30 fire Speed 8, fly 8 (clumsy) (m) Claw (standard; at-will) +26 vs. AC; 1d6 + 8 damage. (m) Trident (standard; recharge 4 5 6 ) * Weapon Reach 2; +26 vs. AC; 4d4 + 8 damage and ongoing 5 damage (save ends), and the target slides into any square adjacent to the war devil and is knocked prone. (r) Besieged Foe (minor; at-will) Ranged sight; automatic hit; the target is marked, and allies of the war devil gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls made against the target until the encounter ends or the war devil marks a new target. (r) Devilish Transposition (move; at-will) * Teleportation Ranged 20; the war devil and an allied devil within range swap positions. (r) Fiendish Tactics (minor; recharge 5 6 ) Ranged 10; affects up to 2 allied devils of the war devil’s level or lower; each target can take a move action or make a basic attack. Alignment Evil Languages Supernal Skills Intimidate +20 Str 27 (+19) Dex 23 (+17) Wis 19 (+15) Con 25 (+18) Int 15 (+13) Cha 18 (+15) Equipment trident War Devil Tactics Despite their brutish appearance, war devils are outstanding tacticians and clever leaders. They use besieged foe and fiendish tactics to direct their subordinates against dangerous foes, but they eagerly leap into the fray when the time is right, using devilish transposition to exchange places with a lesser devil (often one with the mobility to penetrate the enemies’ ranks). War Devil Lore A character knows the following information with a successful Religion check. DC 25: War devils (also known as malebranches) are among the most powerful devils that are routinely summoned by mortals. Encounter Groups War devils often serve as “muscle” for pit fiends or archdevils, or they directly command contingents of lesser devils. Level 21 Encounter (XP 19,750) 1 war devil (level 22 brute) 1 ice devil (level 20 soldier) 2 bone devils (level 17 controller) 12 legion devil legionnaires (level 21 minion) -Kinda interesting. I have allways liked DEVILS...so I think its kewl!!!:cool: 18D:devil:
Stigger 04-14-08, 01:31 PM	Were it not for that insertion of 'fallen angels' garbage... I might be able to stomach it a bit better.
Lord Karsus 04-14-08, 05:01 PM	-Did you know that, apparently, so I have heard, 'D&D Day' was changed from it's normal time to coincide with the release of 4e?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-14-08, 08:20 PM	I do like how the article is clear on exactly why devils are so interested in taking people's souls.
18DELTA 04-14-08, 10:47 PM	-It looks like they made Hell into one GIGANTIC DUNGEON!!!!:eek: I like how the Succubus has to spend a minor action EACH ROUND to use polymorph.:D It looks like actions will really, really be important. 18D;)
SATA 04-15-08, 01:22 AM	I also like the clarification on the matter of Devils and their interest in souls but their origin I do not. Also, I found it odd, that now the Succubus turn out to be a Devil and not a Demon like previous editions.
Valgard 04-15-08, 03:08 AM	Now it's officially been said that devils are tempters... a thing that was part of the demons job (succubi, glabrezu): What's better to spread chaos than corrupting those in charge of law?
capnvan 04-15-08, 03:51 AM	Were it not for that insertion of 'fallen angels' garbage... I might be able to stomach it a bit better. I confess that I too have been at a loss to explain that - all references to that kind of stuff was taken out in 2E specifically because of complaints and pressure from parents and religious groups. I'm wondering why they'd even chance it again?
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 07:36 AM	I do like how the article is clear on exactly why devils are so interested in taking people's souls. -That's not anything new, I don't believe. And, if it is, they think a lot like I do, concerning this matter.
Rauric 04-15-08, 09:40 AM	I confess that I too have been at a loss to explain that - all references to that kind of stuff was taken out in 2E specifically because of complaints and pressure from parents and religious groups. I'm wondering why they'd even chance it again? I think it is because it is 2008 now and not the 80's. D&D is a drop in the bucket for concerned parents next to Family Guy, South Park and Grand Theft Auto. People who are parents now remember D&D as "That game that those stinky nerds used to play. Remember when Jimmy would throw them in the in the trash can at school? Awesome." I like that succubi/incubi will be with the devils. Their tactics seemed more dvilish than demonic. Basically demons in 4E are more monstrous and alien and destructive in what they do. Devils are more clever and appear to have more humanoid forms. So Ice devils and bone devils are now demons.
Valgard 04-15-08, 09:47 AM	I like that succubi/incubi will be with the devils. Their tactics seemed more dvilish than demonic. Basically demons in 4E are more monstrous and alien and destructive in what they do. You have said it already... demons in 4E are more monstrous and alien and destructive in what they do, but that wasn't the intention prior to 4E (how many times will be we going to use this expression :confused: ), instead, demons were supposed to spread chaos, and tempting mortals was a great way to do it (among other ones). Devils are more clever and appear to have more humanoid forms. So Ice devils and bone devils are now demons. I think that's not true. Ice devils and bone devils are staying as devils.
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 09:50 AM	So Ice devils and bone devils are now demons. -How ironic. I think that's not true. Ice devils and bone devils are staying as devils. -...Or, maybe not.
Valgard 04-15-08, 12:09 PM	-...Or, maybe not. Here I found it, at least for the bone devil: Desert of Desolation Preview 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20070927a). It says: Osyluth As you might have noted from recent articles about the future of D&D's cosmology and fiend hierarchy, we've been taking a hard look at how the various demons and devils fall into their respective categories. Of course, while all these discussions were going on, we were also trying to put together this minis set -- and this particular creature was in a state of flux, as there was discussion of making it the bone demon, not the bone devil. After some significant deliberation, we put the Osyluth back into the devil camp, where it will continue to foster tyranny and corruption wherever it goes. As you can see, the look of the bone devil got a bit of a makeover, too, though the trademark stinger-tipped tail and gaunt features preserve the recognizable profile of the fiend. And regarding this deserting between demons and devils... Don't you think that the new Nine Hells (the Dungeon Nine Hells) should be more appropriately called ABYSS? Before knowing of the D&D Abyss, I always thought that the Abyss was a great underground pit... :uh-huh:
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 12:15 PM	-It's settled, then.
Stigger 04-15-08, 12:29 PM	Just makes my head hurt...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-15-08, 01:12 PM	Also, I found it odd, that now the Succubus turn out to be a Devil and not a Demon like previous editions. That is because the concept of the succubus fits in better with the new, 4E definition of "devil" than the new definition of "demon". Also, note that the succubus is replacing the erinyes (which, according to the 4E designers, was the same creature as the succubus only with a LE alignment), which is in line with the desire to not have monsters be too redundant.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-15-08, 01:14 PM	-That's not anything new, I don't believe. And, if it is, they think a lot like I do, concerning this matter. It may not be new, but it ("it" being the "why" behind the taking of souls) is clearer, now, than I remember it to be.:)
Valgard 04-16-08, 03:20 AM	Also, note that the succubus is replacing the erinyes (which, according to the 4E designers, was the same creature as the succubus only with a LE alignment), which is in line with the desire to not have monsters be too redundant. That tells nothing good about the WotC design team, because the only thing the erinyes had in common with the succubus was that they usually had winged female appearance. The erinyes were combatants, not seductive tempters. Or the designers have very bad memory problems or they are a brand new team.
Stigger 04-16-08, 09:51 AM	Actually, erinyes (in 2e anyway) were able to hop back and forth to the Prime so they could collect up mortals for the sneaky little Baateezu, at least if I recall my Faces of Evil correctly. Though really, I don't see why they wouldn't be redundant...
Another Gnome 04-16-08, 12:51 PM	D&D erinyes always were succubi with different-looking wings until 3E changed their function from infernal sluts to shocktroopers, and even then only in 3.5 did they get stats more suitable for that job. I have no problem whatsoever with succubi as devils, but what I still don't understand is why they decided to throw away the fury-like erinyes right after they finally got them done right. :thinks:
Stigger 04-16-08, 02:08 PM	That one puzzles me as well. Another thing that confuses me a bit is why the two wouldn't have overlap in roles, even without the Bloodwar, with just different ways of going about their roles. I wouldn't call it redundant, so much as logical... but maybe that's just me.
Valgard 04-17-08, 03:11 AM	I have no problem whatsoever with succubi as devils, but what I still don't understand is why they decided to throw away the fury-like erinyes right after they finally got them done right. :thinks: Though I don't like it very much, you can always make a 4E fury/erinyes by giving brute or soldier role (or levels, or whatever they are called) to a 4e succubus. So Ice devils and bone devils are now demons. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080417_114734_0.jpg found at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080417_114734_0.jpg Here's the confirmed ice devil, so we know there's no ice demon. I say that because the other two have, definitely, devil appearance. Have you seen the one at the top left? That's a really scary-looking devil. :D :devil:
Alediran 04-17-08, 01:37 PM	That is because the concept of the succubus fits in better with the new, 4E definition of "devil" than the new definition of "demon". Also, note that the succubus is replacing the erinyes (which, according to the 4E designers, was the same creature as the succubus only with a LE alignment), which is in line with the desire to not have monsters be too redundant. Which sucks, because more than once I have decieved players into thinking an Erinyes was a Succubus and they attempted to defeat her using tactics that serve against demons (the Wizard couldn't understand why his Fireball spell didn't do damage to the Erinyes). WotC is taking any kind of chance DMs have of surprising players with their ordered categories without redundancy.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-17-08, 09:04 PM	Which sucks, because more than once I have decieved players into thinking an Erinyes was a Succubus and they attempted to defeat her using tactics that serve against demons (the Wizard couldn't understand why his Fireball spell didn't do damage to the Erinyes). That is an interesting tactic.:)
GreenKnight 04-18-08, 03:12 AM	Here's the confirmed ice devil, so we know there's no ice demon. I say that because the other two have, definitely, devil appearance. Have you seen the one at the top left? That's a really scary-looking devil. :D :devil: The Ice Devils ARE Demons, actually. They just got suckered into a contract with Mephistopheles and so they're now stuck serving him. Hence, Ice Devils.
Lord Karsus 04-18-08, 08:22 AM	The Ice Devils ARE Demons, actually. They just got suckered into a contract with Mephistopheles and so they're now stuck serving him. Hence, Ice Devils. -I thought they were originally 'Loths...?
Alediran 04-18-08, 03:02 PM	That is an interesting tactic.:) That's why I think this whole anti-redundancy movement WotC is doing sucks big time. There could be little differences between the Suc and the Eir, but there are enough to make them both useful. Any kind of reductionism takes options from us. That's why I have a hard time liking other RPGs, because they never offer as much options as D&D has (or had until 4th edition)
18DELTA 04-18-08, 07:43 PM	-A new monster is up. Instead of Making another thread about it, I will add it to this thread. I now introduce the $e Phane. Phane (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080418b) Abominations are living weapons that were created during the ancient cosmic war between the gods and the primordials. Some of these creations were enormous (such as today's art preview: the tarrasque), others small. Some were singular beings of terrific power, while others were legion. A few abominations stand apart as failed or incomplete divine experiments that have either been locked away or forgotten. Phane Phanes can manipulate time, which they use to sow chaos among mortals. Occasionally they form pacts with powerful beings that share their destructive propensities. Consisting of coalescent mist, this creature has the lower body of a hunting cat and the torso, arms, and head of a humanoid. The air ripples around the creature, and though it moves with feline grace, it seems as though it can barely hold itself together. Phane Tactics A phane uses its great speed to stay out of range of opponents while targeting them with wizening ray. If forced into close combat, a phane uses either its temporal touch or wizening tempest to slow or stun enemies so it can withdraw safely and attack from a distance. Phane Lore A character knows the following information with a successful Religion check. DC 25: Phanes are native to the Astral Sea, but they are found throughout the cosmos, walking the space between moments, ever on the hunt for prey. Encounter Groups Phanes aren’t choosy about their allies. Legend tells of them working with sorrowsworn, nightwalkers, powerful demons and devils, and mighty fey. Level 26 Encounter (XP 46,000) 1 phane (level 26 elite controller) 2 sorrowsworn soulrippers (level 25 skirmisher) 2 dread wraiths (level 25 lurker) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phane Level 26 Elite Controller Large immortal magical beast XP 18,000 Initiative +23 Senses Perception +25; darkvision HP 478; Bloodied 239 AC 41; Fortitude 38, Reflex 41, Will 38 Resist insubstantial Saving Throws +2 Speed 10, fl y 10 Action Points 1 Temporal Touch (standard; at-will) Reach 2; +29 vs. Reflex; 2d8 + 10 damage, and the target is slowed until the end of the phane’s next turn. The phane shifts 4 squares before or after making this attack. Wizening Ray (standard; at-will) Ranged 10; +29 vs. Fortitude; 2d6 + 9 damage, and the target is dazed and weakened (save ends both). Aftereffect: The target is weakened (save ends). The target appears elderly until the effects of the wizening ray end. Wizening Tempest (standard, usable only while bloodied; at-will) Close burst 1; phanes are immune; +29 vs. Fortitude; 2d6 + 10 damage, and the target is stunned (save ends). Aftereffect: The target is dazed and weakened (save ends both). The target appears elderly until the effects of the wizening tempest end. Temporal Fugue (minor; at-will) By moving backward and forward in time, a phane can remove one effect afflicting it. Alignment Unaligned Languages Supernal Str 24 (+20) Dex 30 (+23) Wis 25 (+20) Con 23 (+19) Int 28 (+22) Cha 22 (+19) -I like the Temporal Fugue ability. 18D;)
Lord Karsus 04-18-08, 11:36 PM	-I don't understand most of that mechanical stuff, but I wonder if this lore is going to be imported into the Forgotten Realms: "Abominations are living weapons that were created during the ancient cosmic war between the gods and the primordials.". -It sounds a lot like what was alluded to and vaguely hinted at in Stardeep.
MarkusTay63 04-18-08, 11:41 PM	I confess that I too have been at a loss to explain that - all references to that kind of stuff was taken out in 2E specifically because of complaints and pressure from parents and religious groups. I'm wondering why they'd even chance it again?Exactly WHY they are doing it. Last time the Church went against them, they're earnings soared. Teenagers love to do the exact opposite of what their parents want, plus you've heard the expression "There's no such thing as bad publicity"? They are hoping they come under fire - their entire approach to 4e PR has been to 'churn up emotions' and generate hype. If the Pope came out and condemned D&D tomorrow, they'd be soiling their pants in glee. You can't buy that kind of publicity. I guess WotC got Jealous when the RCs went after Rawlings and Harry Potter. :rolleyes:
Stigger 04-19-08, 02:14 AM	Ugh... Phanes... what will they think of next... Got a sneaking suspicion you have a definite point there Markus.
Green Elven Vampire 04-19-08, 03:16 AM	Sorry, but after reading all that and then seeing all the stats, I'm surely convinced it seems rather lame! Hey! Who wants to convert 2ED spells from Tome of Magic that nobody ever used!! Seems more fun than playing 4ED!
Lord Karsus 04-19-08, 01:21 PM	Ugh... Phanes... what will they think of next... -Why, what's a Phane, that you say that? I know there is a Greek deity called Phanes, but...
Stigger 04-19-08, 02:50 PM	Wasn't in reference to the name, more the concept behind them. Yet another thing to turn me off of 4e as anything but a ruleset. Glad my players prefer the political arena to the dungeon, that way I don't even really have to invest in the 4e MM.
Lord Karsus 04-19-08, 07:16 PM	-Oh, okay. I thought it was some kind of really bad blast from the past, or something.
GreenKnight 04-20-08, 02:42 AM	For the sake of reference, here's the 3.5 Phane. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane
18DELTA 04-20-08, 03:13 AM	For the sake of reference, here's the 3.5 Phane. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane -:eek: That is one naaasty mofo!!!:eek: 18D:eek:
18DELTA 04-21-08, 07:48 AM	-Well the Warlord is up now. So instead of making another thread I will post it here! Excerpts:The Warlord 4th Edition Player's Handbook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080421a) While we continue to present excerpts and previews from the core rulebooks every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday leading up to 4th Edition’s release, we’ve also asked members of R&D to help introduce these previews—to explain in brief what these materials bring to the game. Today’s excerpt selection concerns the warlord, including its traits, features, and builds. In addition, we posed the following questions to R&D’s Rich Baker: How did the warlord make it into the Player’s Handbook? His response: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It wasn’t easy to choose the classes to appear in the Player’s Handbook. Many conflicting objectives affected these decisions—for example, we wanted to include multiple builds so that there would be a number of different ways to create, for example, a fighter… but doing so took up more space for each single class description, and that meant fewer classes could fit into the Player’s Handbook. Similarly, we wanted to reproduce popular classes from 3rd Edition as quickly as possible, so that players engaged in ongoing games could convert easily… but we also thought it would be highly desirable to show off new classes that might give an experienced player a chance to try out something he or she had never seen before. This last point is one of the reasons why the warlord is in the new Player’s Handbook. Just as 3rd Edition introduced the sorcerer (and re-introduced the barbarian) up front, we felt that 4th Edition should introduce one or two classes that weren’t previously part of the core D&D experience. The warlord first appeared in our second design draft of 4th Edition as the marshal. Those of you familiar with the 3rd Edition Miniatures Handbook might remember this class. (You might also wonder why we changed the name from marshal to warlord. The answer is that we wanted to broaden the concept from a medieval military commander to someone who might be a barbaric warchief, an elven marchwarden, or a noble-born knight-commander.) Of course, the 4E version was only loosely based on the 3E version; among other things, the new marshal has access to the same sort of power selection as any other 4E class, instead of a boatload of auras. It was also moved more clearly into the Leader role, while the 3E marshal was a class that fell “in between” roles, and certainly couldn’t replace a cleric or a fighter in the typical party mix. The 4E warlord now helps alleviate that unfortunate requirement of party composition in all previous editions of Dungeons & Dragons: before, a party had to include a cleric in order to be effective. Very early on in 4th Edition design, our work on character roles led us to the idea that any character serving as the party’s “cleric”—whether a bard, shaman, warlord, or whatever—needed to be as good at that job as the cleric or else we’d have yet another edition of D&D in which every party still needed a cleric. That led us to the idea of the Leader role, and the warlord as just one of several possible classes that can fill this role. Of course, the warlord fills it in his own unique way, with powers that have a strong flavor of clever tactics and heroic inspiration. Read on a bit, and you’ll see for yourself! --Rich Baker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Onward to victory! They cannot stand before us!” Warlords are accomplished and competent battle leaders. Warlords stand on the front line issuing commands and bolstering their allies while leading the battle with weapon in hand. Warlords know how to rally a team to win a fight. Your ability to lead others to victory is a direct result of your history. You could be a minor warchief looking to make a name for yourself, a pious knight-commander on leave from your militant order, a youthful noble eager to apply years of training to life outside the castle walls, a calculating mercenary captain, or a courageous marshal of the borderlands who fights to protect the frontier. Regardless of your background, you are a skillful warrior with an uncanny gift for leadership. The weight of your armor is not a hindrance; it is a familiar comfort. The worn weapon grip molds to your hand as if it were a natural extension of your arm. It’s time to fight and to lead. Class Traits Role: Leader. You are an inspiring commander and a master of battle tactics. Power Source: Martial. You have become an expert in tactics through endless hours of training and practice, personal determination, and your own sheer physical toughness. Key Abilities: Strength, Intelligence, Charisma Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail; light shield Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score Hit Points per Level Gained: 5 Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution modifier Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose four trained skills at 1st level. Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), History (Int), Intimidate (Cha) Build Options: Inspiring warlord, tactical warlord Class Features: Combat Leader, Commanding Presence, inspiring word Warlord Class Features Warlord Overview Characteristics: You are a strong warrior in melee, able to stand beside the fighter or paladin in your party. Your powers grant allies immediate actions (usually moves or attacks), provide bonuses to attack or defense, and grant healing in the midst of battle. Religion: Warlords favor martial gods such as Bahamut and Kord, and those who have a particular eye for strategy or leadership esteem Ioun or Erathis. Evil and unaligned warlords often worship Bane. Races: Dragonborn make excellent inspiring warlords, and half-elves are equally inspiring leaders. Eladrin are skilled tactical warlords. Tiefling warlords are versatile, combining powers from both builds, and humans can excel at either path. All warlords have these class features. Combat Leader You and each ally within 10 squares who can see and hear you gain a +2 power bonus to initiative. Commanding Presence Choose one of the following two benefits. Inspiring Presence: When an ally who can see you spends an action point to take an extra action, that ally also regains lost hit points equal to one-half your level + your Charisma modifier. Tactical Presence: When an ally you can see spends an action point to make an extra attack, the ally gains a bonus to the attack roll equal to one-half your Intelligence modifier. The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain warlord powers. Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Commanding Presence selection has on them. Inspiring Word Using the inspiring word power, warlords can grant their comrades additional resilience with nothing more than a shout of encouragement. Creating a Warlord The two warlord builds are inspiring warlord and tactical warlord. Some warlords lean more on their Charisma, while others rely on Intelligence, but Strength is important to every warlord. Inspiring Warlord You lead by exhortation, encouragement, and inspiration. Your powers help your allies find new surges of courage and endurance within themselves, helping them heal, shrug off debilitating conditions, and defend themselves from attack. Your attack powers rely on Strength, so that should be your best ability score. The benefits you give your allies, though, depend almost entirely on Charisma, so make that second best. Intelligence is your best third choice, so you can dabble in other warlord powers and to help your Reflex defense. Select powers that make the best use of your high Charisma score. Suggested Feat: Inspired Recovery (Human feat: Toughness) Suggested Skills: Athletics, Diplomacy, Heal, History Suggested At-Will Powers: commander’s strike, furious smash Suggested Encounter Power: guarding attack Suggested Daily Power: bastion of defense Guarding Attack Warlord Attack 1 With a calculated strike, you knock your adversary off balance and grant your comrade-in-arms some protection against the villain’s attacks. Encounter Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Target: One creature Attack: Strength vs. AC Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Until the end of your next turn, one ally adjacent to either you or the target gains a +2 power bonus to AC against the target’s attacks. Inspiring Presence: The power bonus to AC equals 1 + your Charisma modifier. Bastion of Defense Warlord Attack 1 Honorable warriors never fall! Daily Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Target: One creature Attack: Strength vs. AC Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage. Allies within 5 squares of you gain a +1 power bonus to all defenses until the end of the encounter. Effect: Allies within 5 squares of you gain temporary hit points equal to 5 + your Charisma modifier. Tactical Warlord Your leadership takes the form of quick commands, cunning strategies, and tactical superiority. Your powers guide your allies to extra and more powerful attacks, as well as helping them move quickly in combat situations. You also assist your allies by moving your enemies around or knocking them prone. You use Strength for your attack powers, so make that your best ability score. Intelligence is secondary, because your Intelligence determines just how effective a leader you are. Charisma should be your third best score, so you can dabble in other warlord powers and to improve your Will defense. Select powers that make the best use of your high Intelligence score. Suggested Feat: Tactical Assault (Human feat: Weapon Focus) Suggested Skills: Endurance, Heal, History, Intimidate Suggested At-Will Powers: viper’s strike, wolf pack tactics Suggested Encounter Power: warlord’s favor Suggested Daily Power: lead the attack Warlord’s Favor Warlord Attack 1 With a calculated blow, you leave your adversary exposed to an imminent attack from one of your closest allies. Encounter Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Target: One creature Attack: Strength vs. AC Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. One ally within 5 squares of you gains a +2 power bonus to attack rolls against the target until the end of your next turn. Tactical Presence: The bonus to attack rolls that you grant equals 1 + your Intelligence modifier. Lead the Attack Warlord Attack 1 Under your direction, arrows hit their marks and blades drive home. Daily Martial, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Target: One creature Attack: Strength vs. AC Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage. Until the end of the encounter, you and each ally within 5 squares of you gain a power bonus to attack rolls against the target equal to 1 + your Intelligence modifier. Miss: Until the end of the encounter, you and each ally within 5 squares of you gain a +1 power bonus to attack rolls against the target. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be sure to return Wednesday for a look at paragon paths from the Player's Handbook! -Its different.;) Really read it this time wow that is a kick :censored: class! I may have to paly one when my game group tries 4e!:D 18D:P
Valgard 04-21-08, 09:55 AM	The phrase that got my attention most is the following: Be sure to return Wednesday for a look at paragon paths from the Player's Handbook!Although is good to see how they propose the warlord.
Lord Karsus 04-21-08, 11:47 AM	The 4E warlord now helps alleviate that unfortunate requirement of party composition in all previous editions of Dungeons & Dragons: before, a party had to include a cleric in order to be effective. -Oh, that is not true at all. As I have found out in DMing my own campaign, all you need is a single Wand of Cure Light Wounds at lower levels, and then something with a little extra zip at higher levels. -Anyway, the Warlord seems very...uninteresting to me. It basically looks like a combination of a Knight/Fighter with a little bit of Bard and/or Paladin mixed in.
Stigger 04-21-08, 06:00 PM	Can't say it did much for me either... Knight seemed a bit more exciting a concept to me really... not by much though. Don't really like melee classes from a player perspective though. As for the cleric issue, no, you don't need one, although they did help a lot, they weren't necessary.
Lord Karsus 04-21-08, 11:11 PM	Can't say it did much for me either... Knight seemed a bit more exciting a concept to me really... not by much though. -Basically, I see the Warlord as a Knight on steroids, so to speak.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-22-08, 01:31 PM	Sorry, but after reading all that and then seeing all the stats, I'm surely convinced it seems rather lame! Now there's a surprise...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-22-08, 01:35 PM	-Oh, that is not true at all. As I have found out in DMing my own campaign, all you need is a single Wand of Cure Light Wounds at lower levels, and then something with a little extra zip at higher levels. I was thinking the same thing. It's not written anywhere that a party has to include a cleric, or they'll be ineffective. *shrug* As for the warlord, I'm a bit neutral about it, so far. At this time, there are other classes I'm more interested in.
Alediran 04-22-08, 02:08 PM	As for the warlord, I'm a bit neutral about it, so far. At this time, there are other classes I'm more interested in. Wizards for example. I'm expecting to see at least something like Archmage in the Paragon Paths for them. Although I hate how they nerfed wizards by limiting the spells he has access to, for example, the more advanced Enchantements that Psions are going to use. I find it ludicrous that Wizards can't make spells that act like Psion powers, that reeks of MMORPG and I don't like how they limit Spellcasters.
Jiggawha 04-22-08, 03:44 PM	think I'll have a warrior only
Lord Karsus 04-22-08, 03:55 PM	Now there's a surprise... :rofl: -Does anyone have a towel? I think some sarcasm just dripped on me...:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-22-08, 03:57 PM	*hands LK a towel*:) I'm looking forward to the wizard, yes...and the bard. I know the bard won't be out yet, but it will come eventually.
Lord Karsus 04-22-08, 04:05 PM	*hands LK a towel*:) -Thank you. -The Sorcerer looks interesting, if it is indeed what I am envisioning it to be. Last time I heard- which was months ago- it was supposed to be a sort of 'Wild Mage' type character, with side-effects for spells, and things to that effect.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-23-08, 11:11 AM	Yeah, I'm interested in seeing what, exactly, they do with the sorcerer class.
Valgard 04-24-08, 03:52 AM	The entry in the Races & Classes book gives a very good impression about the sorcerer... It likes me more than the wizard and I preferred they took the sorcerer instead of the wizard in the 1st PHB.
Alediran 04-24-08, 09:15 AM	The entry in the Races & Classes book gives a very good impression about the sorcerer... It likes me more than the wizard and I preferred they took the sorcerer instead of the wizard in the 1st PHB. They can't do that because Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard is THE most classic party formation.
Valgard 04-24-08, 09:57 AM	They can't do that because Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard is THE most classic party formation.Between you and I... that's one of the reasons why I wanted the sorcerer instead of the wizard. :D No, seriously, I'd know that, but those are only the names of these classes. Actually, the most classic party in any fantasy setting is a warrior, a healer, a sneak, and a mage, ie using roles instead of actual classes. If they want to name them defender, leader, striker, and controller, alright then. I understand why they chose those classes and if I were in that same situation I'd probably taken those as well. The classes they present in the 1st PHB are the most iconic of those roles, but I think that if two classes can be interchanged in a single role, those are the sorcerer and the wizard. And honestly, what do you prefer, a wizard carrying a wand (and why not a pointy hat) or a sorcerer being surrounded with fire after casting fireball? :mage:
Alediran 04-24-08, 07:02 PM	Between you and I... that's one of the reasons why I wanted the sorcerer instead of the wizard. :D No, seriously, I'd know that, but those are only the names of these classes. Actually, the most classic party in any fantasy setting is a warrior, a healer, a sneak, and a mage, ie using roles instead of actual classes. If they want to name them defender, leader, striker, and controller, alright then. I understand why they chose those classes and if I were in that same situation I'd probably taken those as well. The classes they present in the 1st PHB are the most iconic of those roles, but I think that if two classes can be interchanged in a single role, those are the sorcerer and the wizard. And honestly, what do you prefer, a wizard carrying a wand (and why not a pointy hat) or a sorcerer being surrounded with fire after casting fireball? :mage: I'm a Wizard player, never played a Sorcerer, except once when I tried an Ultimate Magus. I don't like the limited spell selection, I preffer the Wizard's flexibility in his choices.
Stigger 04-24-08, 07:16 PM	I'm not a big fan of limited spell selection classes really... just strikes me as a somewhat... weird concept from the word go. But yeah, classic wizard is generally more appealing to me for exactly the same reason as Alediran's.
Valgard 04-25-08, 03:32 AM	I'm a Wizard player, never played a Sorcerer, except once when I tried an Ultimate Magus. I don't like the limited spell selection, I preffer the Wizard's flexibility in his choices. I'm not a big fan of limited spell selection classes really... just strikes me as a somewhat... weird concept from the word go. But yeah, classic wizard is generally more appealing to me for exactly the same reason as Alediran's. I understand your preferences, although I don't totally agree with them. I preferred the sorcerer for its flavor, the innate ability it had. For the spellcasting system itself, although I admit the wizard's spell selection was priceless (you had the potential to learn every single sorcerer/wizard spell) you got fewer spells per day and you got to assume the risk of selecting inappropriate spells or selecting them too few (or too much) times. But I was referring to 4th edition classes when I made the previous reply, and it is supposed that this different kind of spellcasting no longer applies. And I still don't like the fact that you must go with a wand ala Harry Potter to take maximum potential to your wizard abilities.And honestly, what do you prefer, a wizard carrying a wand (and why not a pointy hat) or a sorcerer being surrounded with fire after casting fireball? :mage: Consider again the sentence I made before. :D
Alediran 04-25-08, 09:09 AM	But I was referring to 4th edition classes when I made the previous reply, and it is supposed that this different kind of spellcasting no longer applies. And I still don't like the fact that you must go with a wand ala Harry Potter to take maximum potential to your wizard abilities. Consider again the sentence I made before. :D That's one of the reasons I'm not going to touch 4ed at all if they become that important. Magic comes from within, not from what you wield (a Headband of Intellect is a valid way to increase one's arcane power since it improves what you are already)
Stigger 04-25-08, 09:23 AM	I prefer to look at it as more, you can do magic, its just better with a wand... which if you read Potter carefully, the wand isn't absolutely necessary, it just makes things much easier. As for flavor, yes, I very much preferred the sorcerer, as it synchs nicely with my own thoughts that magic should be an innate quality, and not necessarily something you just decide to learn one day... in a perfect world, I'd combine the two and make D&D mages more like the WoD version of them and just be done with it. Not holding my breath for that in D&D though.
Alediran 04-25-08, 01:27 PM	That approach is fine in Mage, but I also like D&Ds approach to magic. In Mage you could be a complete idiot and still awaken. Wizards in D&D need to be inteligent or they can't cast spells.
Stigger 04-25-08, 04:38 PM	Which is an idea I'm not overly fond of... I'd prefer something more along the lines of traditions in regards to 'types' of spellcasters, or at least a floating (pick from Int, Cha, or Wis) primary spellcasting attribute to represent the 'style' of the arcane caster... Hermes (for want of a better way to describe it) types would obviously gravitate towards Intelligence based casting, while a more Cult type caster would gravitate towards Charisma, and the Verbena type would gravitate more towards Wisdom. All arcane casters, effectively work the same way, but very different feels to them. Might have to work in something like that at some point soon, thinking about it...
Alediran 04-25-08, 05:23 PM	It was something that stroke me as odd with the system, after all only very special people awaken, those with the capacity to understand at some level that the world is not as it seems, something that people who don't spend time thinking don't realize.
Stigger 04-26-08, 01:18 AM	Well, I usually saw it as some had the potential to manipulate reality, and of those, only a small fraction had the ability to actually comprehend reality in a meaningful way. Though amusingly, I thought the Hollowers had the best point of view in general, or at least the one that appealed to me the most.
Alediran 04-28-08, 09:37 AM	Well, I usually saw it as some had the potential to manipulate reality, and of those, only a small fraction had the ability to actually comprehend reality in a meaningful way. Though amusingly, I thought the Hollowers had the best point of view in general, or at least the one that appealed to me the most. Meh, Order of Hermes FTW! Virtual Adepts too :D From the new mage I like the five paths and I'm more a Mysterium/Adamantine Arrow guy. What's cool is that you can be a member of two orders at the same time if you manage to balance it, Mysterium/Adamantine Arrow is one of the easiest ones to pull. Both orders usually get along well.
Astarvedillithid 05-10-08, 05:55 PM	[/quote] Ice Devils ARE Demons, actually. They just got suckered into a contract with Mephistopheles and so they're now stuck serving him. Hence, Ice Devils.[/QUOTE] SO COOL:schemes: :devil: :schemes: :devil: :angelhide :turkey:
Astarvedillithid 05-10-08, 05:58 PM	:confused: did I miss-post???:confused: soo Embarrassing :embarrass
Lord Karsus 05-11-08, 02:56 AM	-You have ED, eh? Entering-Text Dysfunction. That's okay. They have pills for that, now. No worries, and it's all confidential...
Khaelieth 05-11-08, 08:09 AM	and that's me got all the newest posts on the FR forums!
Astarvedillithid 06-07-08, 10:45 AM	I've tallied it up and we currently have the stats of 6 devils: War Devil lvl 22 Brute(leader):fight!: succubus Devil lvl 9 controller:angelhide legion Devil lvl varies minion:devil: Grunt lvl 6 minion Hellguard lvl 11 minion veteran lvl 16 minion legionnaire lvl 21 minion WotC has mentioned even more including: Ice Devil (level 20 soldier):gel: Bone Devil (level 17 controller):b: Snaketongue Assassin (level 9 lurker):yuck: Crushgrip Constrictor (level 9 soldier):thumbsup: and they showed a picture of an imp and pit fiend and cambion (half mortal half devil) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpt_4EMM_pitfiend.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpt_4EMM_succubus.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpt_4EMM_wardevil.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080414_114717_dh290uw3_0.jpg http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080417_114734_0.jpg an thats all I know...:devil: :schemes:
Suin Bahhar 06-07-08, 11:13 AM	Not sure what to think of this... Still against the devil succubus, they'll be called erinyes in my D&D. I do like the feel of having my character wade though legions of devil minions though! Finally! *planeshifts to Gehenna to partake in a little bit of bloodshed in the bloodwar*
GreenKnight 06-07-08, 11:14 AM	These're the Devils listed in the Monster Manual. Bearded Devil (Barbazu) Bone Devil (Osyluth) Chain Devil (Kyton) Ice Devil (Gelugon) Imp Legion Devil Grunt Legion Devil Hellguard Legion Devil Veteran Legion Devil Legionnaire Pit Fiend Spined Devil (Spinagon) Succubus War Devil (Malebranche) Here're the Demons, too. Balor Barlgura Evistro (Carnage Demon) Glabrezu Goristro Hezrou Immolith Marilith Mezzodemon Vrock
18DELTA 06-07-08, 02:30 PM	-I really like the 4E Balor, thats one bad ass demon. :D 18D :cool:
M-bark 06-11-08, 08:36 AM	Interesting thread. Right after I found it I started looking for 2e and 1e art so I could compare it all, but I haven't been lucky in that, though. Could anyone help me out?