A Question on Drow [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Question on Drow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Deus_ex_Invictus
09-01-07, 06:16 PM Ok so this may seem like a pointless question. but I recall reading several times that when the Ilythiir were cast down by Corellon, that he cursed them into their current form or something else along those lines.

Now was this transformation like the one in Elder Scrolls lore? Like when Azura cursed the Chimer into the Dumner? Did Drow start out looking like normal Elves? Or were they always dark skinned? Did they start out with the regular size proportions between a male and female and then get them switched around due the whole spider element?

I'm just curious since this has always bugged me.
Zandilar
09-01-07, 07:33 PM Heya,

Ok so this may seem like a pointless question. but I recall reading several times that when the Ilythiir were cast down by Corellon, that he cursed them into their current form or something else along those lines.

Now was this transformation like the one in Elder Scrolls lore? Like when Azura cursed the Chimer into the Dumner? Did Drow start out looking like normal Elves? Or were they always dark skinned? Did they start out with the regular size proportions between a male and female and then get them switched around due the whole spider element?

I'm just curious since this has always bugged me.

Corellon cast down Araushnee, not the Ilythiir.

Elven High Mages used a High Magic spell to cast down all Ilythiir, even those who were innocent.

Ilythiir started out dark skinned, but I believe the curse made their skin go even darker. It is also quite possible that females were always larger and stronger - however this size difference hasn't been specifically mentioned in any 3rd Edition product (that I know of, someone may well correct me here), and the height/weight chart has the males being taller and heavier than the females (since they use the standard elven chart in the PHB).
Zanan
09-02-07, 04:37 AM Ilythiir started out dark skinned, but I believe the curse made their skin go even darker. It is also quite possible that females were always larger and stronger - however this size difference hasn't been specifically mentioned in any 3rd Edition product (that I know of, someone may well correct me here), and the height/weight chart has the males being taller and heavier than the females (since they use the standard elven chart in the PHB).

Look no further than Underdark, which gives a special table for all Underdark races mentioned therein. Drow females are indeed taller and stronger (by build - weight) than males.

As for history, just download Cormanthyr for free from the main site, Deus_ex_Invictus, where you can essentially read all on the elves of Faerūn.
GothicDan
09-02-07, 04:43 PM Do note that in Lost Empires of Faerun, it says that the Elven High Magi's Ritual wasn't targeting all Ssri-Tel'Quessir, but rather those of just Ilythiir. No one knows why ALL Dark Elves were affected.
Zandilar
09-02-07, 07:45 PM Heya,

Do note that in Lost Empires of Faerun, it says that the Elven High Magi's Ritual wasn't targeting all Ssri-Tel'Quessir, but rather those of just Ilythiir. No one knows why ALL Dark Elves were affected.

I vote for Fate or Destiny. ;) Otherwise, I can't see Corellon just standing aside and letting it happen.

Zanan - thanks, I didn't realise there was another chart. FRCS implies that drow are just ordinary elves with regards to height/weight.
GothicDan
09-02-07, 08:06 PM I like to think it was somehow Lolth's fault. ;)
Lady_K
09-02-07, 08:54 PM Do note that in Lost Empires of Faerun, it says that the Elven High Magi's Ritual wasn't targeting all Ssri-Tel'Quessir, but rather those of just Ilythiir. No one knows why ALL Dark Elves were affected.Personally, I liked Krash's suggestion that after the Dark Disaster, renegade Miyeritari dark elves turned to Ilythiir for aid - and likely were corrupted themselves in doing so.
GothicDan
09-02-07, 10:44 PM That's a good theory, actually. Krashos is a good guy. I'd totally prefer him to have written some sourcebooks. ;)
Zanan
09-03-07, 04:10 AM That's a good theory, actually. Krashos is a good guy. I'd totally prefer him to have written some sourcebooks. ;)

Anything that is pro-Elven will sound good to your ears! :D

Lost Empires actually says that it was most likely going awry because of the sheer power involved. Same happened with the High Elven ritual obliterating Jamdaath (sp?) and the Sundering too - according to the same source. Obviously, the dark elves / drow could have had their hands in that too, ... and snow is black as well, the Sun green and ...
Sosthenes
09-03-07, 04:35 AM According to Storm of the Dead, at least some of the elven peoples who are now called drow started out dark-skinned, yet not ebon black.
Zandilar
09-03-07, 07:14 AM Heya,

I like to think it was somehow Lolth's fault. ;)

She was the weaver of destiny, was she not? ;) :D
GothicDan
09-03-07, 05:18 PM Anything that is pro-Elven will sound good to your ears!

Are you accusing Krashos of being a non-objective designer?

Shame on you!

I actually LIKE LEoF. I just don't think it's detailed enough.
Old Sage
09-04-07, 09:31 AM Personally, I liked Krash's suggestion that after the Dark Disaster, renegade Miyeritari dark elves turned to Ilythiir for aid - and likely were corrupted themselves in doing so.Aye, I like that one myself.

It's possible that, notwithstanding what the sources say, not every dark elf was transformed into drow in -10,000 DR. However, the ones that weren't were so few and scattered to the winds that their bloodlines played out with elven interbreeding over the years.

As Krash also suggested... "That 50/50 chance for either sub-race rule is a bit like russian roulette when you are trying to maintain your race numbers."
Zanan
09-04-07, 11:11 AM Are you accusing Krashos of being a non-objective designer?

Shame on you!

Did I say so? Methinks I "accused" you of being non-objective! :D Which is hardly suprising and not exactly a fault. We all got our perspectives and somesuch.

I actually LIKE LEoF. I just don't think it's detailed enough.

Heck, you will LOVE Storm of the Dead and the way Lisa goes about telling us that Wendonai "tainted" the Ilythiiri with his demonic stuff on Lolth's request and all that. There could be hours spent on debating this new bit of info again, if only I would care. For WotC has surely handed all the reigns in that matter to Lisa and I have given up speculating on the outcome of the Realms-shaking event, as it is nigh unpredictable. Unless you read the promotion stuff and all. Then it becomes perfectly clear what is about to happen. Treehuggers rejoice, your dark kin will be joining you soon enough and we can all dance under the moonlight. Ahem ... make that a "you".
GothicDan
09-04-07, 11:44 AM I don't even like the Drow enough to read the series, regardless of how pro-surface elf it is. If I ran the Realms, I'd probably keep with Ed's original version of Underdark Elves. :)

Though I find it really odd that you're getting so worked up over even seemingly slight references and calling it pro-tree hugger. What you just posted seems to not rebuke anything printed in LEoF at all. It was pretty obvious that Wendonai tainted the Elves of Ilythiir, just as Malkizid did the Vyshaan.
DarkSongKnight
09-04-07, 01:04 PM Then it becomes perfectly clear what is about to happen. Treehuggers rejoice, your dark kin will be joining you soon enough and we can all dance under the moonlight. Ahem ... make that a "you".

:dancin: Dancing! Dancing! Dancing! :dancin:

Though I'm not too sure of that outcome. I hope Eilistraee will win, or at least for it to be a draw.
I like the original Eilistraee, and altering her from "good" to anything else is changing the deity I have come to care for. The only thing worse would be outright killing her.

Another thing to remember is the prophecy for Qilue being the mother of a new race and being called the Godslayer. (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=3)

Wouldn't Corellon or some of the other Seldarine do something if it seemed Lolth would destroy Eil? She may not be an "official" member of the Seldarine, but she is family...
Lord Karsus
09-04-07, 03:08 PM Heck, you will LOVE Storm of the Dead and the way Lisa goes about telling us that Wendonai "tainted" the Ilythiiri with his demonic stuff on Lolth's request and all that. There could be hours spent on debating this new bit of info again, if only I would care. For WotC has surely handed all the reigns in that matter to Lisa and I have given up speculating on the outcome of the Realms-shaking event, as it is nigh unpredictable. Unless you read the promotion stuff and all. Then it becomes perfectly clear what is about to happen. Treehuggers rejoice, your dark kin will be joining you soon enough and we can all dance under the moonlight. Ahem ... make that a "you".

-To tell the truth, I cannot stand the Lady Penitent Trilogy. Personally, I found the first book to be weak, and the second one to be weaker. Too much lore problems, revisionism, and Resurrection spells. But, that's just me. But, I'm sure I could, in theory, speak for Dan.
GothicDan
09-04-07, 04:33 PM I totally give LK the authority to speak for me for this. :)
Zandilar
09-04-07, 06:44 PM Heya,

-To tell the truth, I cannot stand the Lady Penitent Trilogy. Personally, I found the first book to be weak, and the second one to be weaker. Too much lore problems, revisionism, and Resurrection spells. But, that's just me. But, I'm sure I could, in theory, speak for Dan.

You mentioned this in another thread. I'm curious - how many times is it used? It would be very annoying to see something I've been mentioning/talking about for years being "addressed" by a complete overreaction. Too many Resurrections is worse than no Resurrection at all, IMHO.
Lord Karsus
09-04-07, 08:16 PM You mentioned this in another thread. I'm curious - how many times is it used? It would be very annoying to see something I've been mentioning/talking about for years being "addressed" by a complete overreaction. Too many Resurrections is worse than no Resurrection at all, IMHO.

-Off hand, at the top of my head, with many months since I read Sacrifice of the Widow, I can think of the spell actually being used three times, and it being mentioned that a being can simply be "resurrected later" a few more.

-Considering that the spell is rarely even mentioned in other novels, let alone used...

I totally give LK the authority to speak for me for this. :)

-Hurrah!
Zandilar
09-05-07, 02:37 AM Heya,

-Off hand, at the top of my head, with many months since I read Sacrifice of the Widow, I can think of the spell actually being used three times, and it being mentioned that a being can simply be "resurrected later" a few more.

-Considering that the spell is rarely even mentioned in other novels, let alone used...

Hmm... Three does sound like a lot...

I really gotta get my hands on that book. :waits:
Lord Karsus
09-05-07, 09:01 AM Hmm... Three does sound like a lot...

-Especially over the course of one three-hundred-and-something page book.
Sith_Lord_V
09-05-07, 09:54 PM :dancin: Dancing! Dancing! Dancing! :dancin:

Though I'm not too sure of that outcome. I hope Eilistraee will win, or at least for it to be a draw.
I like the original Eilistraee, and altering her from "good" to anything else is changing the deity I have come to care for. The only thing worse would be outright killing her.

Another thing to remember is the prophecy for Qilue being the mother of a new race and being called the Godslayer. (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=3)

Wouldn't Corellon or some of the other Seldarine do something if it seemed Lolth would destroy Eil? She may not be an "official" member of the Seldarine, but she is family...

The " New Race " is probably the Eladrin, and this is how they are going to bring them in in 4th Ed. Read the Elf article on the main site....Personally, I think this new " Elf " format is garbage, but hey, that's just this one person's opinion.
DarkSongKnight
09-06-07, 03:53 AM I just took a glance at the Elf article Sith_Lord_V said something about and... My eyes! oh no! They're ash! :bigeyes: :ghosted:

Ok, so its not the worst I've seen. It looks like they've combined wood and wild into one subrace again, and it looks like thats the only subrace. "Sylvan" elves and drow. Oh, and it mentions eladrin as well. Seems the elves and eladrin are going to be cousins in 4ed. I'm not sure if thats how it was previously. Corellon is a fey god now.
"Elves are drawn to the worship of both the fey god Corellon and Obad-Hai, the god of the wild. Both spiritual and practical, elves embody the most peaceful and the most violent aspects of the natural world."
Heres the article. Elves (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070905a).

I was originally supportive of getting rid of elven subrace statistics, but... lumping all that variety into one melting pot?
Is it true that FR is supposed to be the "core" setting for 4ed? I hope that means they're making core fit to FR, and not the other way around.
Zandilar
09-06-07, 07:32 AM Heya,

I was originally supportive of getting rid of elven subrace statistics, but... lumping all that variety into one melting pot?

I admit, after reading that I'm a little unsettled.

It looks like they've changed the Eladrin into the Grey Elves, and eliminated High Elves in favour of Wood/Sylvan/Wild Elves.

I don't see how this is going to fit in with established Realms lore.

Is it true that FR is supposed to be the "core" setting for 4ed? I hope that means they're making core fit to FR, and not the other way around.

FR is not the core world. The Core books are supposedly campaign neutral (which means you should be able to fit everything into whatever campaign you're running - but after reading the Elf write up, I don't see how).

Sounds like they'll need a helluva lot "Realms specific" stuff to bring these new Elves into line with everything that has gone before.

(Maybe we'll find that Sun and Moon Elves are now Eladrin, Drow Elves are Drow, and the other Elven subraces become the core Elves?)
Lord Karsus
09-06-07, 01:16 PM -But...but...but...

-...Eladrin aren't even Elves...
Zanan
09-06-07, 04:45 PM What's this talk about Eladrin? Ain't they some sort of good outsiders, ghaele et al? What have they to do with the average treehuggers?

check on the Wizards' homepage (4E) ... Elves ... hm, what's this:

Dragon articles require that you sign-in to D&D Insider to view the content.

:rolleyes: Basic core info?

Edit: seperate login ... I see ... now ... what have we got:

Nothing that looks any different from 3E. There are even evil drow mentioned. So what's the story about these eladrin?
GothicDan
09-06-07, 05:49 PM Basically, your typical Elf is your Wood Elf. There's no more subraces to support Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Avariels, Aquatic Elves, etc.

And they're trying to substitute Eladrin for the thematic spot of those surface Elves that would take up arcane paths. Which makes.. No.. Sense.
Lord Karsus
09-06-07, 06:31 PM Basically, your typical Elf is your Wood Elf. There's no more subraces to support Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Avariels, Aquatic Elves, etc.

And they're trying to substitute Eladrin for the thematic spot of those surface Elves that would take up arcane paths. Which makes.. No.. Sense.

-Seriously, man. WTF? How the hell does any of that make sense? If all of that heresay is true, of course.
Zandilar
09-06-07, 06:49 PM Heya,

The article basically states that Eladrin and Elves are cousins. That's not hearsay, that's direct from Wizards.

GothicDan has it right... In the write up, they've pretty much stripped Elves of their "magical" heritage and made them more naturally Druids and Rangers than Wizards and Bladesingers. They also seem to be more tribal than they've previously been, and less hierarchical, so no more large Elven nations. This is just my reading of the article, so it's probably best to take it with a grain of salt... However, if I'm right, that means more than just the Drow, arcane spellcasters, and the Chosen of Mystra are going to "suffer" in the RSEplague transition to 4e.

Thematically, the Eladrin seem to have inherited the role of the "magical" branch of the Elves. But until we see more about the new Eladrin, we won't really know... This bit is hearsay/speculation. :)
MarkHall
09-06-07, 08:18 PM *laughs*

*laughs*

*laughs*
GothicDan
09-06-07, 08:21 PM I wonder how they'll handle the gnomes...
Zanan
09-07-07, 04:39 AM Well, unless I am mistaken, this all holds only true for the Core Elves? The Realms is all for diversity and I doubt that even if e.g. the gnomes were to be chopped (PHB et al), this would not necessarily hold true for the Realms as well. After all, every second FR book and nigh every MM introduces a new playable race and I doubt they will streamline one race into just one subrace (for long).

Then again, you'd have to admit that the big elven nations of the past, those noble folk like the suns and the southern dark elves had their hay day long ago and that the typical elf you'd meet every day in modern Faerūn is more likely the wood/wild elf and the less noble moon elf. Giving them as the PHB-archetypical elves would raise no eyebrow over here.
Zandilar
09-07-07, 08:29 AM Heya,

Well, unless I am mistaken, this all holds only true for the Core Elves? The Realms is all for diversity and I doubt that even if e.g. the gnomes were to be chopped (PHB et al), this would not necessarily hold true for the Realms as well. After all, every second FR book and nigh every MM introduces a new playable race and I doubt they will streamline one race into just one subrace (for long).

I believe I read somewhere that there was going to be minimal setting-specific rules in 4th Ed. So it will be interesting to see how these new Elves and Eladrin are introduced into the Realms.
Zanan
09-07-07, 08:55 AM Heya,
I believe I read somewhere that there was going to be minimal setting-specific rules in 4th Ed. So it will be interesting to see how these new Elves and Eladrin are introduced into the Realms.

I assume there will be a constant trickle of information bits from now till the ascendance of 4E, if only to keep us on our toes. Till the books are out, much of the debate on here is pure speculation ... and it is not that we haven't got enough empty spaces within the existing Realms to fill with hypothesis, right? Maybe we should concentrate on this for the time being? Like ... what will become of Aznar Thrul's daughter if she ever come to know who paps is? Or what keeps Myrmeen Lhal so "young"?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deus_ex_Invictus 09-01-07, 06:16 PM	Ok so this may seem like a pointless question. but I recall reading several times that when the Ilythiir were cast down by Corellon, that he cursed them into their current form or something else along those lines. Now was this transformation like the one in Elder Scrolls lore? Like when Azura cursed the Chimer into the Dumner? Did Drow start out looking like normal Elves? Or were they always dark skinned? Did they start out with the regular size proportions between a male and female and then get them switched around due the whole spider element? I'm just curious since this has always bugged me.
Zandilar 09-01-07, 07:33 PM	Heya, Ok so this may seem like a pointless question. but I recall reading several times that when the Ilythiir were cast down by Corellon, that he cursed them into their current form or something else along those lines. Now was this transformation like the one in Elder Scrolls lore? Like when Azura cursed the Chimer into the Dumner? Did Drow start out looking like normal Elves? Or were they always dark skinned? Did they start out with the regular size proportions between a male and female and then get them switched around due the whole spider element? I'm just curious since this has always bugged me. Corellon cast down Araushnee, not the Ilythiir. Elven High Mages used a High Magic spell to cast down all Ilythiir, even those who were innocent. Ilythiir started out dark skinned, but I believe the curse made their skin go even darker. It is also quite possible that females were always larger and stronger - however this size difference hasn't been specifically mentioned in any 3rd Edition product (that I know of, someone may well correct me here), and the height/weight chart has the males being taller and heavier than the females (since they use the standard elven chart in the PHB).
Zanan 09-02-07, 04:37 AM	Ilythiir started out dark skinned, but I believe the curse made their skin go even darker. It is also quite possible that females were always larger and stronger - however this size difference hasn't been specifically mentioned in any 3rd Edition product (that I know of, someone may well correct me here), and the height/weight chart has the males being taller and heavier than the females (since they use the standard elven chart in the PHB). Look no further than Underdark, which gives a special table for all Underdark races mentioned therein. Drow females are indeed taller and stronger (by build - weight) than males. As for history, just download Cormanthyr for free from the main site, Deus_ex_Invictus, where you can essentially read all on the elves of Faerūn.
GothicDan 09-02-07, 04:43 PM	Do note that in Lost Empires of Faerun, it says that the Elven High Magi's Ritual wasn't targeting all Ssri-Tel'Quessir, but rather those of just Ilythiir. No one knows why ALL Dark Elves were affected.
Zandilar 09-02-07, 07:45 PM	Heya, Do note that in Lost Empires of Faerun, it says that the Elven High Magi's Ritual wasn't targeting all Ssri-Tel'Quessir, but rather those of just Ilythiir. No one knows why ALL Dark Elves were affected. I vote for Fate or Destiny. ;) Otherwise, I can't see Corellon just standing aside and letting it happen. Zanan - thanks, I didn't realise there was another chart. FRCS implies that drow are just ordinary elves with regards to height/weight.
GothicDan 09-02-07, 08:06 PM	I like to think it was somehow Lolth's fault. ;)
Lady_K 09-02-07, 08:54 PM	Do note that in Lost Empires of Faerun, it says that the Elven High Magi's Ritual wasn't targeting all Ssri-Tel'Quessir, but rather those of just Ilythiir. No one knows why ALL Dark Elves were affected.Personally, I liked Krash's suggestion that after the Dark Disaster, renegade Miyeritari dark elves turned to Ilythiir for aid - and likely were corrupted themselves in doing so.
GothicDan 09-02-07, 10:44 PM	That's a good theory, actually. Krashos is a good guy. I'd totally prefer him to have written some sourcebooks. ;)
Zanan 09-03-07, 04:10 AM	That's a good theory, actually. Krashos is a good guy. I'd totally prefer him to have written some sourcebooks. ;) Anything that is pro-Elven will sound good to your ears! :D Lost Empires actually says that it was most likely going awry because of the sheer power involved. Same happened with the High Elven ritual obliterating Jamdaath (sp?) and the Sundering too - according to the same source. Obviously, the dark elves / drow could have had their hands in that too, ... and snow is black as well, the Sun green and ...
Sosthenes 09-03-07, 04:35 AM	According to Storm of the Dead, at least some of the elven peoples who are now called drow started out dark-skinned, yet not ebon black.
Zandilar 09-03-07, 07:14 AM	Heya, I like to think it was somehow Lolth's fault. ;) She was the weaver of destiny, was she not? ;) :D
GothicDan 09-03-07, 05:18 PM	Anything that is pro-Elven will sound good to your ears! Are you accusing Krashos of being a non-objective designer? Shame on you! I actually LIKE LEoF. I just don't think it's detailed enough.
Old Sage 09-04-07, 09:31 AM	Personally, I liked Krash's suggestion that after the Dark Disaster, renegade Miyeritari dark elves turned to Ilythiir for aid - and likely were corrupted themselves in doing so.Aye, I like that one myself. It's possible that, notwithstanding what the sources say, not every dark elf was transformed into drow in -10,000 DR. However, the ones that weren't were so few and scattered to the winds that their bloodlines played out with elven interbreeding over the years. As Krash also suggested... "That 50/50 chance for either sub-race rule is a bit like russian roulette when you are trying to maintain your race numbers."
Zanan 09-04-07, 11:11 AM	Are you accusing Krashos of being a non-objective designer? Shame on you! Did I say so? Methinks I "accused" you of being non-objective! :D Which is hardly suprising and not exactly a fault. We all got our perspectives and somesuch. I actually LIKE LEoF. I just don't think it's detailed enough. Heck, you will LOVE Storm of the Dead and the way Lisa goes about telling us that Wendonai "tainted" the Ilythiiri with his demonic stuff on Lolth's request and all that. There could be hours spent on debating this new bit of info again, if only I would care. For WotC has surely handed all the reigns in that matter to Lisa and I have given up speculating on the outcome of the Realms-shaking event, as it is nigh unpredictable. Unless you read the promotion stuff and all. Then it becomes perfectly clear what is about to happen. Treehuggers rejoice, your dark kin will be joining you soon enough and we can all dance under the moonlight. Ahem ... make that a "you".
GothicDan 09-04-07, 11:44 AM	I don't even like the Drow enough to read the series, regardless of how pro-surface elf it is. If I ran the Realms, I'd probably keep with Ed's original version of Underdark Elves. :) Though I find it really odd that you're getting so worked up over even seemingly slight references and calling it pro-tree hugger. What you just posted seems to not rebuke anything printed in LEoF at all. It was pretty obvious that Wendonai tainted the Elves of Ilythiir, just as Malkizid did the Vyshaan.
DarkSongKnight 09-04-07, 01:04 PM	Then it becomes perfectly clear what is about to happen. Treehuggers rejoice, your dark kin will be joining you soon enough and we can all dance under the moonlight. Ahem ... make that a "you". :dancin: Dancing! Dancing! Dancing! :dancin: Though I'm not too sure of that outcome. I hope Eilistraee will win, or at least for it to be a draw. I like the original Eilistraee, and altering her from "good" to anything else is changing the deity I have come to care for. The only thing worse would be outright killing her. Another thing to remember is the prophecy for Qilue being the mother of a new race and being called the Godslayer. (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=3) Wouldn't Corellon or some of the other Seldarine do something if it seemed Lolth would destroy Eil? She may not be an "official" member of the Seldarine, but she is family...
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 03:08 PM	Heck, you will LOVE Storm of the Dead and the way Lisa goes about telling us that Wendonai "tainted" the Ilythiiri with his demonic stuff on Lolth's request and all that. There could be hours spent on debating this new bit of info again, if only I would care. For WotC has surely handed all the reigns in that matter to Lisa and I have given up speculating on the outcome of the Realms-shaking event, as it is nigh unpredictable. Unless you read the promotion stuff and all. Then it becomes perfectly clear what is about to happen. Treehuggers rejoice, your dark kin will be joining you soon enough and we can all dance under the moonlight. Ahem ... make that a "you". -To tell the truth, I cannot stand the Lady Penitent Trilogy. Personally, I found the first book to be weak, and the second one to be weaker. Too much lore problems, revisionism, and Resurrection spells. But, that's just me. But, I'm sure I could, in theory, speak for Dan.
GothicDan 09-04-07, 04:33 PM	I totally give LK the authority to speak for me for this. :)
Zandilar 09-04-07, 06:44 PM	Heya, -To tell the truth, I cannot stand the Lady Penitent Trilogy. Personally, I found the first book to be weak, and the second one to be weaker. Too much lore problems, revisionism, and Resurrection spells. But, that's just me. But, I'm sure I could, in theory, speak for Dan. You mentioned this in another thread. I'm curious - how many times is it used? It would be very annoying to see something I've been mentioning/talking about for years being "addressed" by a complete overreaction. Too many Resurrections is worse than no Resurrection at all, IMHO.
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 08:16 PM	You mentioned this in another thread. I'm curious - how many times is it used? It would be very annoying to see something I've been mentioning/talking about for years being "addressed" by a complete overreaction. Too many Resurrections is worse than no Resurrection at all, IMHO. -Off hand, at the top of my head, with many months since I read Sacrifice of the Widow, I can think of the spell actually being used three times, and it being mentioned that a being can simply be "resurrected later" a few more. -Considering that the spell is rarely even mentioned in other novels, let alone used... I totally give LK the authority to speak for me for this. :) -Hurrah!
Zandilar 09-05-07, 02:37 AM	Heya, -Off hand, at the top of my head, with many months since I read Sacrifice of the Widow, I can think of the spell actually being used three times, and it being mentioned that a being can simply be "resurrected later" a few more. -Considering that the spell is rarely even mentioned in other novels, let alone used... Hmm... Three does sound like a lot... I really gotta get my hands on that book. :waits:
Lord Karsus 09-05-07, 09:01 AM	Hmm... Three does sound like a lot... -Especially over the course of one three-hundred-and-something page book.
Sith_Lord_V 09-05-07, 09:54 PM	:dancin: Dancing! Dancing! Dancing! :dancin: Though I'm not too sure of that outcome. I hope Eilistraee will win, or at least for it to be a draw. I like the original Eilistraee, and altering her from "good" to anything else is changing the deity I have come to care for. The only thing worse would be outright killing her. Another thing to remember is the prophecy for Qilue being the mother of a new race and being called the Godslayer. (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=3) Wouldn't Corellon or some of the other Seldarine do something if it seemed Lolth would destroy Eil? She may not be an "official" member of the Seldarine, but she is family... The " New Race " is probably the Eladrin, and this is how they are going to bring them in in 4th Ed. Read the Elf article on the main site....Personally, I think this new " Elf " format is garbage, but hey, that's just this one person's opinion.
DarkSongKnight 09-06-07, 03:53 AM	I just took a glance at the Elf article Sith_Lord_V said something about and... My eyes! oh no! They're ash! :bigeyes: :ghosted: Ok, so its not the worst I've seen. It looks like they've combined wood and wild into one subrace again, and it looks like thats the only subrace. "Sylvan" elves and drow. Oh, and it mentions eladrin as well. Seems the elves and eladrin are going to be cousins in 4ed. I'm not sure if thats how it was previously. Corellon is a fey god now. "Elves are drawn to the worship of both the fey god Corellon and Obad-Hai, the god of the wild. Both spiritual and practical, elves embody the most peaceful and the most violent aspects of the natural world." Heres the article. Elves (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070905a). I was originally supportive of getting rid of elven subrace statistics, but... lumping all that variety into one melting pot? Is it true that FR is supposed to be the "core" setting for 4ed? I hope that means they're making core fit to FR, and not the other way around.
Zandilar 09-06-07, 07:32 AM	Heya, I was originally supportive of getting rid of elven subrace statistics, but... lumping all that variety into one melting pot? I admit, after reading that I'm a little unsettled. It looks like they've changed the Eladrin into the Grey Elves, and eliminated High Elves in favour of Wood/Sylvan/Wild Elves. I don't see how this is going to fit in with established Realms lore. Is it true that FR is supposed to be the "core" setting for 4ed? I hope that means they're making core fit to FR, and not the other way around. FR is not the core world. The Core books are supposedly campaign neutral (which means you should be able to fit everything into whatever campaign you're running - but after reading the Elf write up, I don't see how). Sounds like they'll need a helluva lot "Realms specific" stuff to bring these new Elves into line with everything that has gone before. (Maybe we'll find that Sun and Moon Elves are now Eladrin, Drow Elves are Drow, and the other Elven subraces become the core Elves?)
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 01:16 PM	-But...but...but... -...Eladrin aren't even Elves...
Zanan 09-06-07, 04:45 PM	What's this talk about Eladrin? Ain't they some sort of good outsiders, ghaele et al? What have they to do with the average treehuggers? check on the Wizards' homepage (4E) ... Elves ... hm, what's this: Dragon articles require that you sign-in to D&D Insider to view the content. :rolleyes: Basic core info? Edit: seperate login ... I see ... now ... what have we got: Nothing that looks any different from 3E. There are even evil drow mentioned. So what's the story about these eladrin?
GothicDan 09-06-07, 05:49 PM	Basically, your typical Elf is your Wood Elf. There's no more subraces to support Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Avariels, Aquatic Elves, etc. And they're trying to substitute Eladrin for the thematic spot of those surface Elves that would take up arcane paths. Which makes.. No.. Sense.
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 06:31 PM	Basically, your typical Elf is your Wood Elf. There's no more subraces to support Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Avariels, Aquatic Elves, etc. And they're trying to substitute Eladrin for the thematic spot of those surface Elves that would take up arcane paths. Which makes.. No.. Sense. -Seriously, man. WTF? How the hell does any of that make sense? If all of that heresay is true, of course.
Zandilar 09-06-07, 06:49 PM	Heya, The article basically states that Eladrin and Elves are cousins. That's not hearsay, that's direct from Wizards. GothicDan has it right... In the write up, they've pretty much stripped Elves of their "magical" heritage and made them more naturally Druids and Rangers than Wizards and Bladesingers. They also seem to be more tribal than they've previously been, and less hierarchical, so no more large Elven nations. This is just my reading of the article, so it's probably best to take it with a grain of salt... However, if I'm right, that means more than just the Drow, arcane spellcasters, and the Chosen of Mystra are going to "suffer" in the RSEplague transition to 4e. Thematically, the Eladrin seem to have inherited the role of the "magical" branch of the Elves. But until we see more about the new Eladrin, we won't really know... This bit is hearsay/speculation. :)
MarkHall 09-06-07, 08:18 PM	laughs laughs laughs
GothicDan 09-06-07, 08:21 PM	I wonder how they'll handle the gnomes...
Zanan 09-07-07, 04:39 AM	Well, unless I am mistaken, this all holds only true for the Core Elves? The Realms is all for diversity and I doubt that even if e.g. the gnomes were to be chopped (PHB et al), this would not necessarily hold true for the Realms as well. After all, every second FR book and nigh every MM introduces a new playable race and I doubt they will streamline one race into just one subrace (for long). Then again, you'd have to admit that the big elven nations of the past, those noble folk like the suns and the southern dark elves had their hay day long ago and that the typical elf you'd meet every day in modern Faerūn is more likely the wood/wild elf and the less noble moon elf. Giving them as the PHB-archetypical elves would raise no eyebrow over here.
Zandilar 09-07-07, 08:29 AM	Heya, Well, unless I am mistaken, this all holds only true for the Core Elves? The Realms is all for diversity and I doubt that even if e.g. the gnomes were to be chopped (PHB et al), this would not necessarily hold true for the Realms as well. After all, every second FR book and nigh every MM introduces a new playable race and I doubt they will streamline one race into just one subrace (for long). I believe I read somewhere that there was going to be minimal setting-specific rules in 4th Ed. So it will be interesting to see how these new Elves and Eladrin are introduced into the Realms.
Zanan 09-07-07, 08:55 AM	Heya, I believe I read somewhere that there was going to be minimal setting-specific rules in 4th Ed. So it will be interesting to see how these new Elves and Eladrin are introduced into the Realms. I assume there will be a constant trickle of information bits from now till the ascendance of 4E, if only to keep us on our toes. Till the books are out, much of the debate on here is pure speculation ... and it is not that we haven't got enough empty spaces within the existing Realms to fill with hypothesis, right? Maybe we should concentrate on this for the time being? Like ... what will become of Aznar Thrul's daughter if she ever come to know who paps is? Or what keeps Myrmeen Lhal so "young"?