an alternate to an alternate class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

an alternate to an alternate class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xpochian
01-20-08, 07:13 PM greetings all,

in a campaign i'm running, a PC has taken a drow cohort, who is a priestess of sharess. she broke from tradition ages ago and was drawn to the hedonism of sharess, although still retains her bitey, arrogant and condescending ways.

my concern is this: she's very non-combat oriented, and with her vast intellect and general disdain for the 'slave work' of dragging around a sword and shield, she'd rather hang back and use her spells to help the party. essentially, she's more suited to the 'cloistered cleric' variant from the d20srd - less physical and more intellectual.

however, this variant seems to be focused around knowledge - i'm considering re-tooling it so it is more based on hedonism and arrogance, more suited to her, so does anyone have any ideas how i could make the changes more fitting with a priestess of sharess?

thanks in advance!
Zanan
01-21-08, 04:40 AM Well, the cloistered cleric is a fine variant class, though by default something more suited for the scholarly versions of the cleric (i.e. more like the AD&D monk). Then again, you can define what cloistered actually means, background-wise. If knowledge does not belong in there, so be it. Obviously, you can easily determine what knowledge actually refers too - in Sharess' case obviously some different "training". So you may skip the access to the Knowledge domain as well as the Lore ability, but grant the cloistered cleric of Sharess some feats like Vow of X (Book of Exalted Deeds) or the feat Haremtrained (PGtF). And while I am at it, the PGtF actually has a PrC called Celebrant of Sharess, which might hold a few answers to your questions.

In any case, your lass can always play the healers / back-up role, trying to confuse the opposition rather than blast it etc.. And having her as the bard's substitute when it comes to social interaction and information gathering is not that bad either.

Of course, playing a drow is always a wee bit difficult ... but if she e.g. walks along as some sort of "consort" may help her getting accepted amongst the surfacers.
Storm_Silverhand
01-21-08, 06:38 AM Heya,

Well, the cloistered cleric is a fine variant class, though by default something more suited for the scholarly versions of the cleric (i.e. more like the AD&D monk). Then again, you can define what cloistered actually means, background-wise. If knowledge does not belong in there, so be it. Obviously, you can easily determine what knowledge actually refers too - in Sharess' case obviously some different "training". So you may skip the access to the Knowledge domain as well as the Lore ability, but grant the cloistered cleric of Sharess some feats like Vow of X (Book of Exalted Deeds) or the feat Haremtrained (PGtF). And while I am at it, the PGtF actually has a PrC called Celebrant of Sharess, which might hold a few answers to your questions.

Celebrant of Sharess is far more combat oriented. In my opinion that class is misnamed... it should have been Claw of Bast or some such. Take a bard, cross it with monk and add a dash of barbarian - except instead of unarmed, they use claw bracers. The class has an interesting mix of abilities, but I would definitely not call it a non-combat class with abilities like Fury of the Tigress (aka Rage)... It does have some non-combat abilities (like a feline familiar, and several enchantment effects), but it really isn't a good PrC for a cleric, for two reaons - first the prerequisites suit a bard more than a cleric (the class requires: Sacred Vow, Vow of Purity*, Diplomacy 7 ranks, and Perform 7 ranks), and it has a separate spell advancement and its own spell list.

The fluff even says it's more for those who venerate Bast as a war goddess and foe of Set.

In any case, your lass can always play the healers / back-up role, trying to confuse the opposition rather than blast it etc.. And having her as the bard's substitute when it comes to social interaction and information gathering is not that bad either.

Indeed. You don't need to play a cleric as a combat oriented character - non-armour armour can be just as effective, and a cleric's spells aren't anything to sneeze at either. It might help to take some levels of Bard or Rogue to help with social skills, but that would mean her clerical magic isn't as good.

*Vow of Purity, by the way, merely requires that the character avoid contact with dead flesh, which means the character would need to be a vegetarian, as well as avoid touching corpses (fleshy undead included, I'd say)... Which is a very very very odd choice for a carnivorous goddess. Cats are carnivores, after all, and Sharess is a goddess of cats.
Fabius Maximus
01-21-08, 06:47 AM If you have access to the PHB II, the Favoured Soul variant there might be what you're looking for. It replaces Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with more healing power.
Zanan
01-21-08, 07:56 AM Storm, I was implying that the celebrant PrC was going to shed some more knowledge on the faith ... though on hindsight, it could easily be misunderstood.

Of course, if you can get your hand on Plot & Poison, there's a "nice" PrC called "Dominant(rix)". That one would be better suited for Loviatans though.
DoomedPaladinDohReMe
01-21-08, 10:43 AM Plot & Poison also has a prestige for a submissive servant-type which might be appropriate if you were to mix the two. Of course, the sexual overtones of both may negate their desirability alltogether. Depending on the maturity of your players.
The_Shaman
01-21-08, 02:20 PM I would like to suggest the Mystic Wanderer from Magic of Faerun: it doesn't have much in terms of combat, but it has some okay abilities that are a good fit for a deity like Sharess. Other PrCs with emphasis on low armor and little or no combat - such as the spelldancer, harper agent, or master harper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030604a), can also help. If you're bugged by the harper affiliation of some of those (although I'd think many sharessans would regard adventuring with those who harp as good fun), you could just reword the abilities so they all come from Sharess and make some minor changes to fit the flavor. After all, classes in D&D are mechanical constructs, and the flavor can be changed to suit the game.

Before that, she could have a few levels in cloistered cleric - as you said the cleric is quite knowledgeable and intelligent - but if you prefer having a more accurate concept even at the expense of raw power, you should imo do it with divine bard*. Sharess probably enjoys bards anyway, so it's not impossible that some of her clergy serve her more by their exploits and revels than by the more formal ceremonies. Heck, she could be a normal bard anyway - say she got retrained when she joined the Sharessans ;)

*: ideally houseruling against the part where you need wisdom for your spellcasting. It's not nearly strong enough to mandage a multi-ability-dependent casting, imo. Still, drow do have decent ability modifiers, so she might be able to pull it off... but considering that wisdom is often a dump stat for bards, it's quite the hassle to keep it high.
Storm_Silverhand
01-21-08, 04:47 PM Heya,

Storm, I was implying that the celebrant PrC was going to shed some more knowledge on the faith ... though on hindsight, it could easily be misunderstood.

Ugh. Sorry about that. :( Still, it gave me a chance to rant about the class. The fluff is definitely interesting from the perspective of someone wanting to know a little more about Sharess, but the class itself is rather meh IMHO. Especially a PrC for a Cat deity requiring members to refrain from eating meat. It's almost as silly as the class requiring a Vow of Chastity.
The_Shaman
01-21-08, 05:16 PM I have a personal dislike for the class, and "dislike" is putting it mildly. The class, fluff-wise, supposedly brings together several different aspects of Sharess - a deity I'm quite intrigued by. However, in practice it does an absurdly bad job of it. Combat abilities, but poor BAB? Riiiight. Oh, and have a penchant for hand-to-hand fight but squeal if you ever touch dead flesh? Har, har. Diz iz fonny jouk.

BTW, does vow of purity preclude eating meat? Interesting, I thought it was just a taboo for touching dead bodies.
xpochian
01-21-08, 10:48 PM many thanks to everyone who replied so quickly. they're all good leads really, and it'd be a shame to not be able to follow all of them up, in-game, but alas, the time and levels do not allow such things.

if anything, i'm almost more stuck than where i first began. i should mention, as i did in another forum, that she's more intellectual (Int: 14 Wis: 17 Cha: 16) than a typical cleric would be, but isn't really the type to go "Hmm, you know I recall something about an ancient blade that reminds me of..." that would fit the Lore ability.

ah well, back to the drawing board for now.
Taita_of_Imaskar
01-22-08, 12:04 AM I have a personal dislike for the class, and "dislike" is putting it mildly. The class, fluff-wise, supposedly brings together several different aspects of Sharess - a deity I'm quite intrigued by. However, in practice it does an absurdly bad job of it. Combat abilities, but poor BAB? Riiiight. Oh, and have a penchant for hand-to-hand fight but squeal if you ever touch dead flesh? Har, har. Diz iz fonny jouk.

BTW, does vow of purity preclude eating meat? Interesting, I thought it was just a taboo for touching dead bodies.

What is meat if not a part of dead body? In my exalted campaigns Vow of Purity also prohibits touching meat, even leather, bones and the such. Might be a little extreme, but no one said it was easy being paragons of good.

Edit: and yeah celebrant prc is a pos.
Storm_Silverhand
01-22-08, 01:49 AM Heya,

I have a personal dislike for the class, and "dislike" is putting it mildly. The class, fluff-wise, supposedly brings together several different aspects of Sharess - a deity I'm quite intrigued by. However, in practice it does an absurdly bad job of it. Combat abilities, but poor BAB? Riiiight. Oh, and have a penchant for hand-to-hand fight but squeal if you ever touch dead flesh? Har, har. Diz iz fonny jouk.

I agree completely.

BTW, does vow of purity preclude eating meat? Interesting, I thought it was just a taboo for touching dead bodies.

In order to eat meat, you need to touch dead flesh. If not with your hands, definitely with your mouth.
Zanan
01-22-08, 04:41 AM I really missed one of my favourite PrC here, the Mystic Wanderer of Magic of Faerūn. That one is really a special treat for the clerics. The Spelldancer is not that bad either, given the character at hand, yet, the prereqs are hard to come by, I'd say.
The_Shaman
01-22-08, 02:51 PM many thanks to everyone who replied so quickly. they're all good leads really, and it'd be a shame to not be able to follow all of them up, in-game, but alas, the time and levels do not allow such things.

if anything, i'm almost more stuck than where i first began. i should mention, as i did in another forum, that she's more intellectual (Int: 14 Wis: 17 Cha: 16) than a typical cleric would be, but isn't really the type to go "Hmm, you know I recall something about an ancient blade that reminds me of..." that would fit the Lore ability.

ah well, back to the drawing board for now.

Lore can simply involve a lot of trivia, or experience from different fields. If not, however, you can substitute it with the bardic knack ability form PHB II... it can be very handy with a feat that lets you make untrained checks with various skills (i.e. jack of all trades)
Teh_username
01-30-08, 09:12 AM Lore can simply involve a lot of trivia, or experience from different fields. If not, however, you can substitute it with the bardic knack ability form PHB II... it can be very handy with a feat that lets you make untrained checks with various skills (i.e. jack of all trades)Considering that Lore is essentially a renamed version of Bardic Knowledge to begin with, might I suggest just changing the name and role-playing appropriately? For example, succeeding a roll is no longer "the situation brings to mind some knowledge from esoteric tomes"; rather, it's instead "you recall a relevant snippet of information thanks to your widely varied life experiences and unsavory contacts".

The Knowledge domain should also likely be substituted out for one that is more appropriate, as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xpochian 01-20-08, 07:13 PM	greetings all, in a campaign i'm running, a PC has taken a drow cohort, who is a priestess of sharess. she broke from tradition ages ago and was drawn to the hedonism of sharess, although still retains her bitey, arrogant and condescending ways. my concern is this: she's very non-combat oriented, and with her vast intellect and general disdain for the 'slave work' of dragging around a sword and shield, she'd rather hang back and use her spells to help the party. essentially, she's more suited to the 'cloistered cleric' variant from the d20srd - less physical and more intellectual. however, this variant seems to be focused around knowledge - i'm considering re-tooling it so it is more based on hedonism and arrogance, more suited to her, so does anyone have any ideas how i could make the changes more fitting with a priestess of sharess? thanks in advance!
Zanan 01-21-08, 04:40 AM	Well, the cloistered cleric is a fine variant class, though by default something more suited for the scholarly versions of the cleric (i.e. more like the AD&D monk). Then again, you can define what cloistered actually means, background-wise. If knowledge does not belong in there, so be it. Obviously, you can easily determine what knowledge actually refers too - in Sharess' case obviously some different "training". So you may skip the access to the Knowledge domain as well as the Lore ability, but grant the cloistered cleric of Sharess some feats like Vow of X (Book of Exalted Deeds) or the feat Haremtrained (PGtF). And while I am at it, the PGtF actually has a PrC called Celebrant of Sharess, which might hold a few answers to your questions. In any case, your lass can always play the healers / back-up role, trying to confuse the opposition rather than blast it etc.. And having her as the bard's substitute when it comes to social interaction and information gathering is not that bad either. Of course, playing a drow is always a wee bit difficult ... but if she e.g. walks along as some sort of "consort" may help her getting accepted amongst the surfacers.
Storm_Silverhand 01-21-08, 06:38 AM	Heya, Well, the cloistered cleric is a fine variant class, though by default something more suited for the scholarly versions of the cleric (i.e. more like the AD&D monk). Then again, you can define what cloistered actually means, background-wise. If knowledge does not belong in there, so be it. Obviously, you can easily determine what knowledge actually refers too - in Sharess' case obviously some different "training". So you may skip the access to the Knowledge domain as well as the Lore ability, but grant the cloistered cleric of Sharess some feats like Vow of X (Book of Exalted Deeds) or the feat Haremtrained (PGtF). And while I am at it, the PGtF actually has a PrC called Celebrant of Sharess, which might hold a few answers to your questions. Celebrant of Sharess is far more combat oriented. In my opinion that class is misnamed... it should have been Claw of Bast or some such. Take a bard, cross it with monk and add a dash of barbarian - except instead of unarmed, they use claw bracers. The class has an interesting mix of abilities, but I would definitely not call it a non-combat class with abilities like Fury of the Tigress (aka Rage)... It does have some non-combat abilities (like a feline familiar, and several enchantment effects), but it really isn't a good PrC for a cleric, for two reaons - first the prerequisites suit a bard more than a cleric (the class requires: Sacred Vow, Vow of Purity, Diplomacy 7 ranks, and Perform 7 ranks), and it has a separate spell advancement and its own spell list. The fluff even says it's more for those who venerate Bast as a war goddess and foe of Set. In any case, your lass can always play the healers / back-up role, trying to confuse the opposition rather than blast it etc.. And having her as the bard's substitute when it comes to social interaction and information gathering is not that bad either. Indeed. You don't need to play a cleric as a combat oriented character - non-armour armour can be just as effective, and a cleric's spells aren't anything to sneeze at either. It might help to take some levels of Bard or Rogue to help with social skills, but that would mean her clerical magic isn't as good. Vow of Purity, by the way, merely requires that the character avoid contact with dead flesh, which means the character would need to be a vegetarian, as well as avoid touching corpses (fleshy undead included, I'd say)... Which is a very very very odd choice for a carnivorous goddess. Cats are carnivores, after all, and Sharess is a goddess of cats.
Fabius Maximus 01-21-08, 06:47 AM	If you have access to the PHB II, the Favoured Soul variant there might be what you're looking for. It replaces Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with more healing power.
Zanan 01-21-08, 07:56 AM	Storm, I was implying that the celebrant PrC was going to shed some more knowledge on the faith ... though on hindsight, it could easily be misunderstood. Of course, if you can get your hand on Plot & Poison, there's a "nice" PrC called "Dominant(rix)". That one would be better suited for Loviatans though.
DoomedPaladinDohReMe 01-21-08, 10:43 AM	Plot & Poison also has a prestige for a submissive servant-type which might be appropriate if you were to mix the two. Of course, the sexual overtones of both may negate their desirability alltogether. Depending on the maturity of your players.
The_Shaman 01-21-08, 02:20 PM	I would like to suggest the Mystic Wanderer from Magic of Faerun: it doesn't have much in terms of combat, but it has some okay abilities that are a good fit for a deity like Sharess. Other PrCs with emphasis on low armor and little or no combat - such as the spelldancer, harper agent, or master harper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030604a), can also help. If you're bugged by the harper affiliation of some of those (although I'd think many sharessans would regard adventuring with those who harp as good fun), you could just reword the abilities so they all come from Sharess and make some minor changes to fit the flavor. After all, classes in D&D are mechanical constructs, and the flavor can be changed to suit the game. Before that, she could have a few levels in cloistered cleric - as you said the cleric is quite knowledgeable and intelligent - but if you prefer having a more accurate concept even at the expense of raw power, you should imo do it with divine bard. Sharess probably enjoys bards anyway, so it's not impossible that some of her clergy serve her more by their exploits and revels than by the more formal ceremonies. Heck, she could be a normal bard anyway - say she got retrained when she joined the Sharessans ;) : ideally houseruling against the part where you need wisdom for your spellcasting. It's not nearly strong enough to mandage a multi-ability-dependent casting, imo. Still, drow do have decent ability modifiers, so she might be able to pull it off... but considering that wisdom is often a dump stat for bards, it's quite the hassle to keep it high.
Storm_Silverhand 01-21-08, 04:47 PM	Heya, Storm, I was implying that the celebrant PrC was going to shed some more knowledge on the faith ... though on hindsight, it could easily be misunderstood. Ugh. Sorry about that. :( Still, it gave me a chance to rant about the class. The fluff is definitely interesting from the perspective of someone wanting to know a little more about Sharess, but the class itself is rather meh IMHO. Especially a PrC for a Cat deity requiring members to refrain from eating meat. It's almost as silly as the class requiring a Vow of Chastity.
The_Shaman 01-21-08, 05:16 PM	I have a personal dislike for the class, and "dislike" is putting it mildly. The class, fluff-wise, supposedly brings together several different aspects of Sharess - a deity I'm quite intrigued by. However, in practice it does an absurdly bad job of it. Combat abilities, but poor BAB? Riiiight. Oh, and have a penchant for hand-to-hand fight but squeal if you ever touch dead flesh? Har, har. Diz iz fonny jouk. BTW, does vow of purity preclude eating meat? Interesting, I thought it was just a taboo for touching dead bodies.
xpochian 01-21-08, 10:48 PM	many thanks to everyone who replied so quickly. they're all good leads really, and it'd be a shame to not be able to follow all of them up, in-game, but alas, the time and levels do not allow such things. if anything, i'm almost more stuck than where i first began. i should mention, as i did in another forum, that she's more intellectual (Int: 14 Wis: 17 Cha: 16) than a typical cleric would be, but isn't really the type to go "Hmm, you know I recall something about an ancient blade that reminds me of..." that would fit the Lore ability. ah well, back to the drawing board for now.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-22-08, 12:04 AM	I have a personal dislike for the class, and "dislike" is putting it mildly. The class, fluff-wise, supposedly brings together several different aspects of Sharess - a deity I'm quite intrigued by. However, in practice it does an absurdly bad job of it. Combat abilities, but poor BAB? Riiiight. Oh, and have a penchant for hand-to-hand fight but squeal if you ever touch dead flesh? Har, har. Diz iz fonny jouk. BTW, does vow of purity preclude eating meat? Interesting, I thought it was just a taboo for touching dead bodies. What is meat if not a part of dead body? In my exalted campaigns Vow of Purity also prohibits touching meat, even leather, bones and the such. Might be a little extreme, but no one said it was easy being paragons of good. Edit: and yeah celebrant prc is a pos.
Storm_Silverhand 01-22-08, 01:49 AM	Heya, I have a personal dislike for the class, and "dislike" is putting it mildly. The class, fluff-wise, supposedly brings together several different aspects of Sharess - a deity I'm quite intrigued by. However, in practice it does an absurdly bad job of it. Combat abilities, but poor BAB? Riiiight. Oh, and have a penchant for hand-to-hand fight but squeal if you ever touch dead flesh? Har, har. Diz iz fonny jouk. I agree completely. BTW, does vow of purity preclude eating meat? Interesting, I thought it was just a taboo for touching dead bodies. In order to eat meat, you need to touch dead flesh. If not with your hands, definitely with your mouth.
Zanan 01-22-08, 04:41 AM	I really missed one of my favourite PrC here, the Mystic Wanderer of Magic of Faerūn. That one is really a special treat for the clerics. The Spelldancer is not that bad either, given the character at hand, yet, the prereqs are hard to come by, I'd say.
The_Shaman 01-22-08, 02:51 PM	many thanks to everyone who replied so quickly. they're all good leads really, and it'd be a shame to not be able to follow all of them up, in-game, but alas, the time and levels do not allow such things. if anything, i'm almost more stuck than where i first began. i should mention, as i did in another forum, that she's more intellectual (Int: 14 Wis: 17 Cha: 16) than a typical cleric would be, but isn't really the type to go "Hmm, you know I recall something about an ancient blade that reminds me of..." that would fit the Lore ability. ah well, back to the drawing board for now. Lore can simply involve a lot of trivia, or experience from different fields. If not, however, you can substitute it with the bardic knack ability form PHB II... it can be very handy with a feat that lets you make untrained checks with various skills (i.e. jack of all trades)
Teh_username 01-30-08, 09:12 AM	Lore can simply involve a lot of trivia, or experience from different fields. If not, however, you can substitute it with the bardic knack ability form PHB II... it can be very handy with a feat that lets you make untrained checks with various skills (i.e. jack of all trades)Considering that Lore is essentially a renamed version of Bardic Knowledge to begin with, might I suggest just changing the name and role-playing appropriately? For example, succeeding a roll is no longer "the situation brings to mind some knowledge from esoteric tomes"; rather, it's instead "you recall a relevant snippet of information thanks to your widely varied life experiences and unsavory contacts". The Knowledge domain should also likely be substituted out for one that is more appropriate, as well.