Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gingko 05-31-07, 05:09 PM	I encountered a discrepancy in the descriptions for wood elves in two different books. The "Monster Manual v3.5" indicates that Wood Elf PCs receive +2 str and dex but -2 int and con whereas the "Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting" (FRCS) indicates that Wood Elf PCs receive +2 str & dex and -2 int, con and cha These discrepancies are not addressed in the errata for either book. So, does anyone know which book is correct? If the FRCS is correct, I'd like to know the rationale for the lower charisma. The racial description for wood elves in the FRCS doesn't suggest that a lower cha would be appropriate. Furthermore, Wood elves seem to be the only elven race with a net -2 modification to abilities, which makes me think there may have been a mistake. Thanks in advance for weighing in on this matter.
brisingre 05-31-07, 09:29 PM	in the fearun campaign setting it simply lists all of their elven racial traits whereas in the "MM 3.5" it only lists where they are diferent from high elves (moon elves in fearun).
Steelwind 06-01-07, 09:23 PM	Ok, 3.0 FRCS wood elves: +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int, -2 cha. Now the updated 3.5 MM wood elves +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int. They dropped the charisma negative is the only difference.
Perun 06-02-07, 02:35 AM	Ok, 3.0 FRCS wood elves: +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int, -2 cha. Now the updated 3.5 MM wood elves +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int. They dropped the charisma negative is the only difference. Which makes them officially unbalanced. The 3.0 version has balanced ability scores (+2 Str (or Dex) is balanced by -2 penalty to Con, and +2 Dex (or Str) is balanced with penalties to Int and Cha; see DMG, p. 173). In this case, I'd treat the abilitiy modifiers in FRCS as correct, even though it's not official, strictly speaking. Regards.
Steelwind 06-02-07, 12:04 PM	Which makes them officially unbalanced. The 3.0 version has balanced ability scores (+2 Str (or Dex) is balanced by -2 penalty to Con, and +2 Dex (or Str) is balanced with penalties to Int and Cha; see DMG, p. 173). In this case, I'd treat the abilitiy modifiers in FRCS as correct, even though it's not official, strictly speaking. Regards. You know, I'm sorry but I have to say, this whole balanced and unbalanced issue is starting to get on my nerves just a bit. LIKE OMG they get an minorly benficial racial stat adjustment......BROKEN......POWERGAMER!! ! I'm not saying there aren't somethings in the game that are somewhat overpowered, like most of Savage Species for example. It's just theres been too many mountains made out of molehills. And Perun I am in no way trying to offend/insult you, I'm sure your a mighty fine person, I'm just addressing a habitual trend from the last few years thats been irratating me.
The_Shaman 06-02-07, 12:39 PM	So is a +2 strength equal to -2 int and -2 cha? I'd say no - whether it's the wood elf or half-orc. Neither intelligence nor constitution are meaningless stats, imo, and so far I haven't heard people going into PA-addicted wood elves yet. As far as I'm concerned, the 3.5 MM wood elves are fine. As an aside, I don't really see why wood elves should be notably stronger than humans, but oh well, it's elves we're talking about, there are bound to be some that are great in any given thing.
Perun 06-02-07, 01:16 PM	And Perun I am in no way trying to offend/insult you, I'm sure your a mighty fine person, I'm just addressing a habitual trend from the last few years thats been irratating me. It's okay. It's pretty common to find people who don't agree with you on discussion forums :) You know, I'm sorry but I have to say, this whole balanced and unbalanced issue is starting to get on my nerves just a bit. LIKE OMG they get an minorly benficial racial stat adjustment......BROKEN......POWERGAMER!! ! I'm not saying there aren't somethings in the game that are somewhat overpowered, like most of Savage Species for example. It's just theres been too many mountains made out of molehills. But you agree that we need some sort of guideline to make at least a passing attempt at making things balanced in the game? It was easier in 2e, unbalanced ability scores weren't all that of a big deal back then, but in 3(.5), a +2/-2 to an ability score can make a lot of difference (that's why you don't see many half-orc wizards or dwarf bards). I don't mind an occasional, justified "minorly beneficial stat adjustment", and I could see allowing hobgoblins as a LA +0 race, because even though their ability scores are deffinitely unbalanced according to the DMG (+2 Dex, +2 Con), they don't get much else. Or half-orcs with penalty to either Int or Cha (again, they don't gain (m)any other racial abilities). But, in case of wood elves, they get everything the PH (high) elf gets, and more. It's not justified mechanics-wise, and it doesn't make sense "fluff"-wise (why would something the size of a wood elf get a +2 Str modifier, the exact same bonus the half-orc gets) beyond the tired old "they're elves, it's their magical nature". They're half-orcs in an elf suit. And I really hate that :P Regards.
Steelwind 06-02-07, 02:25 PM	Point taken, but I would like to give a counterpoint. Show me a +0 LA race that gets a +2 to two mental stats and a -2 to one physical stat. Its like their saying this is our balancing effect but to use the inverse would be TOO powerful.
Perun 06-02-07, 03:10 PM	Point taken, but I would like to give a counterpoint. Show me a +0 LA race that gets a +2 to two mental stats and a -2 to one physical stat. Its like their saying this is our balancing effect but to use the inverse would be TOO powerful. If you want a cheap answer, I'll do you one better -- "lesser" aasimar from Player's Guide to Faerūn. They get +2 to two mental ability scores and no penatly. Otherwise, I have no real answer for you, except that that appears what the designers believe, and that it would make spellcasters more powerful, but no noticeably more so than with a single bonus to a mental ability score (which are nonexistant in the core rules, and I'd like to believe, for a reason). Regards.
Swiftblade 06-02-07, 09:41 PM	Just so you guys know, Gingko is in my gaming group, and as DM I ruled in favor of using the more recent book, MM 3.5 stats. As for my thinking, no matter where the stat is located, any minus should equal a positive, if there is an unbalance in the mathematics, something should be given in place to make the correction or a LA as necessary.
brisingre 06-03-07, 09:57 PM	wood elves are slightly overpowered i can't argue that their not, but their background gives them room to be overpowered, i'm not saying it's mathematically correct or that it's balanced, or anything like that. but nor am i saying it's not balanced or mathematically correct or anything like that, i'm simply saying that they have these abilities due to their background, correct or not, doesn't matter, if the dm doesn't like the way their ability mods are set up, the dm can change them. :)
Green Elven Vampire 06-03-07, 10:32 PM	Copper elves tend to binge revel and are the most flighty and frivolous of all the subraces of elves. They love to party and drink strong wines, but they are also the most warrior'esque of all elves as well. They like to fight and they like to drink. A very rowdy bunch them Copper elves!!
Perun 06-04-07, 12:49 AM	wood elves are slightly overpowered i can't argue that their not, but their background gives them room to be overpowered, i'm not saying it's mathematically correct or that it's balanced, or anything like that. but nor am i saying it's not balanced or mathematically correct or anything like that, i'm simply saying that they have these abilities due to their background, correct or not, doesn't matter, if the dm doesn't like the way their ability mods are set up, the dm can change them. :) Elven background, in general, gives enough material to make elves the most overpowered race in D&D. Does that mean all elves should be overpowered?
brisingre 06-04-07, 04:00 PM	no, but it gives them room to be