Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SATA 02-28-07, 02:28 AM	I guess the title say it all. I just wanted to check out of curiosity what this forum community thinks and feel about the adaptation to FR of those new classes. So let's hear some opinions... Here's the link in case some haven't check the article yet. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/frcc
bitter thorn 02-28-07, 03:11 AM	You might want to have a look at this thread. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=794958 I'll bump it for you.
SATA 02-28-07, 01:37 PM	Thank you, but I already check that thread and is hardly what I tried here. I wanted some specifics comments about the adaptation of the new classes in the PHB II to FR. Just wanted to know what people think, just out of curiosity, I have my own thought about the subject, but wanted to read specific comments about those classes and the realmslore used to introduce them, not just vague comments and mostly the desire to see other classes like ninjas and the rest mentioned there.
MerrikCale 02-28-07, 08:59 PM	I like it a lot, particularly the ideas behind the duskblade. Some classes like the knight are relatively easy but it was a brillant way to mold the duskblade into FR lore. I liked the beguiler work as well. Some of the classes like scout, marshall, etc are easy. I hope he tackles tough ones like the spirit shaman, incarnates or tome of battle stuff. I also am routing for a favored soul look.
bitter thorn 03-03-07, 11:34 AM	Thank you, but I already check that thread and is hardly what I tried here. I wanted some specifics comments about the adaptation of the new classes in the PHB II to FR. Just wanted to know what people think, just out of curiosity, I have my own thought about the subject, but wanted to read specific comments about those classes and the realmslore used to introduce them, not just vague comments and mostly the desire to see other classes like ninjas and the rest mentioned there. OK. I'm following you now. I like what they did with the duskblade story wise. I thought it showed some respect to the existing lore and gave the class an interesting and mysterious context. I dislike the knight from a mechanical standpoint and to a lesser degree an RP standpoint, so I have a fundamental predudice against the class. I think fighter and marshals and the many PrCs do everything needed for a Knight, so i find the knight, with its odd game mechanics to be a bad fit.
MerrikCale 03-03-07, 02:19 PM	OK. I'm following you now. I like what they did with the duskblade story wise. I thought it should some respect to the existing lore and gave the class an interesting and mysterious context. I dislike the knight from a mechanical standpoint and to a lesser degree an RP standpoint, so I have a fundamental predudice against the class. I think fighter and marshals and the many PrCs do everything needed for a Knight, so i find the knight, with its odd game mechanics to be a bad fit. believe me. I'm not gonna run out and play a knight. But the mechanics are no more odd then other classes like spellthieves and the like. And I think they "make sense" from RP perspective
SATA 03-04-07, 01:02 AM	The one I like the most was the lore about The Beguilers, it was a perfect fit. The secrecy and stealth of the class also work very well against the lack of lore that some people may complain about, saying that they come out of the blue. MY only complain is about The Beguilers of the church of Shar, I didn't like that at all. I guess that everyone dislike The knights, not for their class abilities, but for the fact that their roleplay is not very profound and the alternative they gave us in case no one want to use The Knight class, a Paladin, a Blackguard or Fighter can fill the knight space fine. Dragon Shamans seems to be just unpopular but I haven't heard of any complains against them and at least I personally like the fact about the barbarians tribes. Finally but not least the most popular, The Duskblade. I have a problem but not with the roleplay or the lore (I like mostly of it except a few little details) but with the mechanic of the class and the fact that Bladesinger is a PrC and The Duskblades were bladesingers with a slight variation. I prefer making The Duskblade not bladesingers and just another style of elven art just similar to Bladesingers.
GothicDan 03-04-07, 09:37 PM	I'm still not a big fan of the Duskblade class. But at least I'll make some show of respect towards the designer's attempt to work it into established lore. I just would have worked it in MORE - or left it out, if it didn't fit entirely. I think it would have worked better as a Ilythiiri version of Bladesong than a Vyshaanti one, myself.
Dark Wizard 03-04-07, 09:48 PM	Yes, I think Duskblades would make a good fit for drow.
GothicDan 03-04-07, 10:05 PM	See, I'm not totally against new things. I just want things to fit with established lore as much as possible, while adding to them. ;)
Old Sage 03-04-07, 10:13 PM	GD's thoughts mirror my own in that... it's pretty much what I would've said. I was lefting expecting more in certain areas of the write-up.
SATA 03-05-07, 12:33 AM	Good. I'm glad about what I've read and glad about not being the only one with complains about some of the lore used in the Class Chronicles adaptations, specially with The Duskblades. I guess GothicDan said it very well... See, I'm not totally against new things. I just want things to fit with established lore as much as possible, while adding to them. ;)
MerrikCale 03-05-07, 09:37 AM	GD's thoughts mirror my own in that... it's pretty much what I would've said. I was lefting expecting more in certain areas of the write-up. I don't think thats fair. There is a space constraint for a web article. I don't think under these circumstances you would get pages on the duskblade. I like the job he did under these conditions.
Fabius Maximus 03-05-07, 09:43 AM	I like the flavour for the Duskblade, too. But I still don't like the class. The only PHB II class that has a place in the game is the Dragon Shaman, IMO.
MerrikCale 03-05-07, 11:06 AM	I like the flavour for the Duskblade, too. But I still don't like the class. The only PHB II class that has a place in the game is the Dragon Shaman, IMO. I don't mind the beguiler or knight, not that I would play them. I do like some of the Complete classes (swashbuckler, scout, favored soul, spirit shaman, warlock).
GothicDan 03-05-07, 03:31 PM	I don't think thats fair. There is a space constraint for a web article. I don't think under these circumstances you would get pages on the duskblade. I like the job he did under these conditions. Where did you see us complaining about the LENGTH of the article?
MerrikCale 03-05-07, 03:48 PM	Where did you see us complaining about the LENGTH of the article? "I was left expecting more" is what I'm referring to. All I'm saying is, I think he did a pretty good job considering what it is.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 03:57 PM	More can mean quality, not quantity. :)
SATA 03-05-07, 06:09 PM	I don't think thats fair. There is a space constraint for a web article. I don't think under these circumstances you would get pages on the duskblade. I like the job he did under these conditions. More can mean quality, not quantity. I get MerrikCale's point and also GothicDan's point. Could have more quality doesn't matter the length of the articles, but it's true that the quantity is a condition for it. So maybe an answer could be writing a second part for the articles. If we could have articles for The Border Kingdoms detailing every site and the Waterdeep News and many other articles concerning the realms then I guess we can get a part two of the Class Chronicles, to provide more in depth, hopefully.
MerrikCale 03-05-07, 08:52 PM	More can mean quality, not quantity. :) I agree. But I'm not going to blame the author for what I believe are constraints placed upon him. At least I would think space was an issue and he did a nice job with it.
Old Sage 03-05-07, 09:07 PM	Who said I was blaming the author? I simply noted that I was "left expecting more" from the article in terms of fitting the class itself more appropriately into the Realmslore. That doesn't necessarily equate with quantity but rather, as GD noted earlier, quality.
MerrikCale 03-05-07, 09:19 PM	Who said I was blaming the author? I simply noted that I was "left expecting more" from the article in terms of fitting the class itself more appropriately into the Realmslore. That doesn't necessarily equate with quantity but rather, as GD noted earlier, quality. And by stating there was a deficieny in quality you are necessarily criticizing the author, are you not? At least, that how it reads.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 09:21 PM	I agree. But I'm not going to blame the author for what I believe are constraints placed upon him. At least I would think space was an issue and he did a nice job with it. ..... Where did anyone say anything about length?
MerrikCale 03-05-07, 09:26 PM	..... Where did anyone say anything about length? We've been down this road before. I understnd you're criticizing the author on quality not the actual length of the article. I get that. All I'm saying is, I think there is quality to the article especially when considering there can't be any great length to the article.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 09:31 PM	Well, you didn't specify that. ;) I think there's some quality; I just think there could have been a lot more, in the same amount of space, that took into account Realms lore in a more expansive way. But elitist grognards like me aren't the type who are hired to write them. ;)
MerrikCale 03-05-07, 09:34 PM	But elitist grognards like me aren't the type who are hired to write them. ;) Thats their mistake
Old Sage 03-05-07, 10:16 PM	And by stating there was a deficieny in quality you are necessarily criticizing the author, are you not? At least, that how it reads.Criticising, yes. Blaming, no. There is a difference. I felt that given the lore provided for the class, something was missing in terms of making it completely "fit" with existing Realmslore. I certainly don't blame Eytan's efforts for not making it fit how I would see it in the Realmslore.
SATA 03-06-07, 12:37 AM	I get MerrikCale's point and also GothicDan's point. Could have more quality doesn't matter the length of the articles, but it's true that the quantity is a condition for it. So maybe an answer could be writing a second part for the articles. If we could have articles for The Border Kingdoms detailing every site and the Waterdeep News and many other articles concerning the realms then I guess we can get a part two of the Class Chronicles, to provide more in depth, hopefully. Aside from a few differences we "all" agree that the articles have some quality, that we were left wanting more details and more in depth elaborated adaptation to the realmslore, quantity like I said is a condition for the quality of a write-up but not a major one, but in any case, like I already said also, maybe what we need is a part II of the Class Chronicles with more information concerning the adaptation to the realmslore. Also, now that we are at my true desire point for this thread, first the opinion of everyone who join this thread and second, and most importantly, from our points of view, how could the lore provided in the articles "fit" completely in The Realms? I personally like this option, for me, it make more sense and add some flavor. [...] I think it would have worked better as a Ilythiiri version of Bladesong than a Vyshaanti one, myself.
MerrikCale 03-06-07, 09:38 AM	Criticising, yes. Blaming, no. There is a difference. under these circumstances, whats the difference?
Old Sage 03-06-07, 09:46 AM	Criticism has the potential to be useful, when applied appropriately. Blame, usually, is a waste of everyone's time simply because it produces nothing useful. I criticise the author's efforts to appropriately "fit" the class into the Realmslore. Though I cannot blame the author for not doing so. Eytan was following a path he felt was appropriate for the class itself.
MerrikCale 03-06-07, 10:10 AM	Criticism has the potential to be useful, when applied appropriately. Blame, usually, is a waste of everyone's time simply because it produces nothing useful. I criticise the author's efforts to appropriately "fit" the class into the Realmslore. Though I cannot blame the author for not doing so. Eytan was following a path he felt was appropriate for the class itself. OK. I guess we're arguing over semantics really anyway (I recognize that its my fault). I liked the write-up more than you and GD. Simple as that I suppose
Fabius Maximus 03-06-07, 12:04 PM	I don't mind the beguiler or knight, not that I would play them. I do like some of the Complete classes (swashbuckler, scout, favored soul, spirit shaman, warlock). I don't like base classes that duplicate PrCs and multiclass combinations or can be achieved through playing one of the core base classes. Swashbuckler and Duskblade are essentially moot, as is the Beguiler. The Knight wasn't necessary, since the fighter can be as 'knightish'. The other classes you mentioned are okay, since they have a distinct flavour. The Favoured Soul isn't really good, though.
MerrikCale 03-06-07, 12:16 PM	I suppose I feel the opposite. I like core classes that take from multiclassing and even to an extent PrCs. The knight, like the scout, comes with its own special ability which to me at least makes it somewhat useful. I'm more a more the merrier kind of guy when it comes to classes. As long as they make sense and are not over/under powered. Take the spirit shaman, interesting game mechanics and flavor. I like it. Same with the favored soul.
GothicDan 03-06-07, 03:54 PM	I like core classes more than PrCs, but I prefer base classes with appropriate Feats more than both, unless the core classes are specifically reflecting cultural paths in the setting that could not be just as easily expressed via the typical class archetype + Feat choices. For me, if something doesn't add to the intrinsic flavor of a setting, the theme and culture, there's no point in having it in print.
EytanBernstein 03-06-07, 03:55 PM	Just so people are aware, I (we) do listen to criticisms and suggestions provided in the forums. As a designer, I know I'll never please everyone, but I have taken some suggestions to heart for upcoming entries in the series - especially from those who felt that the beguiler and duskblade entries were meatier in realmslore than the other two. Of course, I will still do things the way I see them - as Old Sage said - but I also appreciate feedback and suggestions.
GothicDan 03-06-07, 04:00 PM	Eytan, just so it seems like I'm not being a TOTAL grognard - I was impressed that you managed to link as much as you did with the Duskblade in Realms lore. It just so happens that in this case it hit on one of my specialties (Sun Elves), so, like any self-proclaimed pretentious 'expert,' I'm not going to be satisfied. ;) But it's really good to hear that you're receptive to opinions from little old us!
MerrikCale 03-06-07, 04:06 PM	I was impressed that you managed to link as much as you did with the Duskblade in Realms lore. It just so happens that in this case it hit on one of my specialties (Sun Elves), so, like any self-proclaimed pretentious 'expert,' I'm not going to be satisfied. ;) But it's really good to hear that you're receptive to opinions from little old us! kick save and a beauty:)
MerrikCale 03-06-07, 04:10 PM	As a designer, I know I'll never please everyone, but I have taken some suggestions to heart for upcoming entries in the series - especially from those who felt that the beguiler and duskblade entries were meatier in realmslore than the other two. I would think that the beguiler and duskblade would require more lore. The knight you can pretty much plunk down where ever without much thought. I suppose the same can be said for the scout, swashbuckler, and the like. Some such as the duskblade are lore heavy as its presented in the PHBII.
Fabius Maximus 03-06-07, 05:09 PM	Just so people are aware, I (we) do listen to criticisms and suggestions provided in the forums. As a designer, I know I'll never please everyone, but I have taken some suggestions to heart for upcoming entries in the series - especially from those who felt that the beguiler and duskblade entries were meatier in realmslore than the other two. That's because the Knight is rather generic (that's why it's essentially a Fighter with class abilities that would work as well as feats). The Dragon Shaman's flavour is so narrow that it almost can only fit barbaric societies. (That's why it fits in every setting where are dragons and such societies.) Duskblade and Beguiler need more explaining because they fill special niches in the game and might not exist in the Realms for that reason.
Old Sage 03-06-07, 07:02 PM	Eytan, I do have one critical point with the Realmslore that I wish to bring up with you. Though, I think it would be more appropriate to handle this via PMs.
MerrikCale 03-06-07, 08:59 PM	Eytan, I do have one critical point with the Realmslore that I wish to bring up with you. Though, I think it would be more appropriate to handle this via PMs. drats
Old Sage 03-06-07, 11:17 PM	Did I foil some of your plans?
EytanBernstein 03-07-07, 04:20 AM	Eytan, I do have one critical point with the Realmslore that I wish to bring up with you. Though, I think it would be more appropriate to handle this via PMs. Feel free to PM me about it.
MerrikCale 03-07-07, 10:47 AM	Did I foil some of your plans? yes
Old Sage 03-07-07, 06:50 PM	Then I can smile for the rest of the day. ;) Eytan, I briefly mentioned the point I wanted to discuss with you over at Candlekeep in the scrolls dedicated to your 'Class Chronicles' series of articles. As it happens though, I came up with something else while looking over the second article. I'll discuss that with you instead.
EytanBernstein 03-08-07, 04:41 AM	Alrighty. I'll be happy to discuss it.
SATA 03-09-07, 02:02 AM	Hello, first of all is such an honor to have you, Mr. Eytan Bernstein in this thread, I didn't imaging that this thread would caught any attention but lucky me.:D I hope you can answer me a few questions if you don't mind. Is there any chance of a part-II of The Class Chronicles with more in-depth information? Why The Beguilers were cut loose of the churches, specially from Shar's? IMHO I don't get it at all. Why that adaptation for The Duskblade? I know that the class have similarities with Bladesinger and to a certain point it would make sense but at the end Duskblade is a core class, available for any race, and about the roles there's some differences that could well mean the slight variation that you suggest and the fact that the Duskblade origin is so ancestral and the art of the bladesong have evolve with time, but from your point of view, could it make more sense adapting The Duskblade with ancient drow or a sort of bladesong art but not as good and without the prestige of bladesingers, ergo, making it available for the friends of the elves and with time for any other race given the precise method of acquisition? Hopefully the questions would make some sense and I would get an answer, so I'll wait with my fingers crossed. :D
EytanBernstein 03-09-07, 06:31 AM	Hello, first of all is such an honor to have you, Mr. Eytan Bernstein in this thread, I didn't imaging that this thread would caught any attention but lucky me.:D I hope you can answer me a few questions if you don't mind. Is there any chance of a part-II of The Class Chronicles with more in-depth information? Why The Beguilers were cut loose of the churches, specially from Shar's? IMHO I don't get it at all. Why that adaptation for The Duskblade? I know that the class have similarities with Bladesinger and to a certain point it would make sense but at the end Duskblade is a core class, available for any race, and about the roles there's some differences that could well mean the slight variation that you suggest and the fact that the Duskblade origin is so ancestral and the art of the bladesong have evolve with time, but from your point of view, could it make more sense adapting The Duskblade with ancient drow or a sort of bladesong art but not as good and without the prestige of bladesingers, ergo, making it available for the friends of the elves and with time for any other race given the precise method of acquisition? Hopefully the questions would make some sense and I would get an answer, so I'll wait with my fingers crossed. :D It is very unlikely that I will be revisiting any of the classes in another round of articles in the series, but I certainly intend to expand on the concepts presented in the articles in future projects. As for Beguilers, you can think of it as a fashionable trend among secretive FR churches that went out of fashion for a variety of reasons, at the expense of the beguilers. Members of the class were divine agents who ceased being useful or convenient to most of their churches. As for duskblades, it's certainly possible for other elven subraces to have learned the style. Sun elves may have developed it, but they had at least a few allies in all of the major elven subraces, probably including drow. There's also nothing stopping non-elves from having learned it, assuming they received their training from an elf (or from someone trained by an elf). It was developed by elves, but is not a kind of magic limited to them. You don't need elven blood to be a duskblade.
MerrikCale 03-09-07, 08:49 PM	It is very unlikely that I will be revisiting any of the classes in another round of articles in the series, but I certainly intend to expand on the concepts presented in the articles in future projects. hmmmmm.....whatever do you mean Mr. Bernstein? What future projects?
Old Sage 03-09-07, 09:01 PM	Hehe... ::snicker:: and ::snorkle:: EDIT 1: Hehe... EDIT 2: Echoing laughter...
GothicDan 03-09-07, 09:53 PM	Old Sage.... You mean old man!
SATA 03-10-07, 01:05 PM	It is very unlikely that I will be revisiting any of the classes in another round of articles in the series, but I certainly intend to expand on the concepts presented in the articles in future projects. As for Beguilers, you can think of it as a fashionable trend among secretive FR churches that went out of fashion for a variety of reasons, at the expense of the beguilers. Members of the class were divine agents who ceased being useful or convenient to most of their churches. As for duskblades, it's certainly possible for other elven subraces to have learned the style. Sun elves may have developed it, but they had at least a few allies in all of the major elven subraces, probably including drow. There's also nothing stopping non-elves from having learned it, assuming they received their training from an elf (or from someone trained by an elf). It was developed by elves, but is not a kind of magic limited to them. You don't need elven blood to be a duskblade. Alright, thank you, I don't wanna be rude or ungrateful but it wasn't the answer I was expecting but I guess my english isn't very good and I couldn't make more sense with my questions, but thank you really, thank you for your time and good luck in future projects.
EytanBernstein 03-10-07, 01:27 PM	Alright, thank you, I don't wanna be rude or ungrateful but it wasn't the answer I was expecting but I guess my english isn't very good and I couldn't make more sense with my questions, but thank you really, thank you for your time and good luck in future projects. If you can give a bit more information on your questions, I'll be happy to try and give more.
SATA 03-12-07, 03:18 PM	OK I'll try. The Beguilers, from MY point of view, have the best adaptation but what I don't get is why they were forsaken from every church they were involve with? The way I see it, they could still be part of some of the churches, specially Shar's, they could have Orders like the Monks and Paladins have. I get the part that they make mistakes or couldn't make a better work and the secrets they protect from their respective churches comes into the light and become 'popular dominion', but still, that don't have to be the case of every church, like Shar's for example, she let her big secret out so the Beguilers were doing their work great until that moment, so why threw them out of the church? just to realize later that they possess important knowledge and start to hunt them down. I check the class in the book and I didn't find anything that stop playing The Beguilers in a organize Order type fashion like Monks and Paladins, but they can be loners also, is a matter of choice and options. The Duskblade, MY real problem with them is that is a core class and the similarity they have with The Bladesinger make sense to create the adaptation of The Duskblade to Faerun following that path. MY issue is that The Bladesinger have so much history and importance in elven society and in game mechanics they are a prestige class just available for elves and half-elves, so The Duskblade being a core class have to be available for any race. I would be more happy if The Duskblade were just a type of bladesong not perfect or not with high standards as the one of Bladesingers, that way I can accept the distribution of the class over the centuries and the knowledge any race can possess of the class.
EytanBernstein 03-12-07, 05:20 PM	OK I'll try. The Beguilers, from MY point of view, have the best adaptation but what I don't get is why they were forsaken from every church they were involve with? The way I see it, they could still be part of some of the churches, specially Shar's, they could have Orders like the Monks and Paladins have. I get the part that they make mistakes or couldn't make a better work and the secrets they protect from their respective churches comes into the light and become 'popular dominion', but still, that don't have to be the case of every church, like Shar's for example, she let her big secret out so the Beguilers were doing their work great until that moment, so why threw them out of the church? just to realize later that they possess important knowledge and start to hunt them down. I check the class in the book and I didn't find anything that stop playing The Beguilers in a organize Order type fashion like Monks and Paladins, but they can be loners also, is a matter of choice and options. The Duskblade, MY real problem with them is that is a core class and the similarity they have with The Bladesinger make sense to create the adaptation of The Duskblade to Faerun following that path. MY issue is that The Bladesinger have so much history and importance in elven society and in game mechanics they are a prestige class just available for elves and half-elves, so The Duskblade being a core class have to be available for any race. I would be more happy if The Duskblade were just a type of bladesong not perfect or not with high standards as the one of Bladesingers, that way I can accept the distribution of the class over the centuries and the knowledge any race can possess of the class. The use of beguilers among various faiths was somewhat of a fad. Sometimes ideas spring up among different groups at the same time, only to go out of favor. Each church got rid of their beguilers for different reasons, but the Time of Troubles and their own inner struggles proved to most of them that they couldn't depend on magical trickery to defend their secrets. Rather, they needed loyalty, something that was often hard to get from the wily and deceitful beguilers. As for duskblades, I felt it best to confine them to elves. I can't really do anything about the mechanics of the class itself. I know a lot of people would rather have a bladesinger class or have had the duskblade class be a prestige class, but I can only work within the bounds of what is. As for races, I limited it to elves, but nothing is stopping people from developing non-elven duskblade traditions. In a single short article, I can't go into any depth if I talk about traditions among all of the races.
SATA 03-12-07, 11:15 PM	The use of beguilers among various faiths was somewhat of a fad. Sometimes ideas spring up among different groups at the same time, only to go out of favor. Each church got rid of their beguilers for different reasons, but the Time of Troubles and their own inner struggles proved to most of them that they couldn't depend on magical trickery to defend their secrets. Rather, they needed loyalty, something that was often hard to get from the wily and deceitful beguilers. As for duskblades, I felt it best to confine them to elves. I can't really do anything about the mechanics of the class itself. I know a lot of people would rather have a bladesinger class or have had the duskblade class be a prestige class, but I can only work within the bounds of what is. As for races, I limited it to elves, but nothing is stopping people from developing non-elven duskblade traditions. In a single short article, I can't go into any depth if I talk about traditions among all of the races. ...Hard for me to exactly explain myself, english is not my natural language but anyway, everyone have their own points of views and I understand what you have said and I'm pleased with your adaptation, not 100% but I'm pleased and that's what matter anyway, so thank you for your time and answers.
Valgard 04-11-07, 07:18 AM	So we have a new Class Chronicles article regarding scouts and healers. This new one isn't as big as the warlock articles, and the stories are not as good as the one of the duskblade, becauise in my very personal opinion that was awesome. After all, I think they're very good ones. The bynomial relation scout-Cormanthor was quite obvious, but I liked those halfling scouts too. And we have, finally, if anyone was still in doubt, an "official, canon, whatever" response in that a healer, needs, of course, a patron deity, and also, which type of deities a healer may choose from. Also, the possible option of healers of Luthic is completely banned. I liked to congratulate Mr. Eytan Bernstein for all these good articles he is writing. Carry on! :clap:
EytanBernstein 04-11-07, 03:34 PM	I'm glad this one was interesting. I've realized that not every class is going to make as compelling an adaptation as warlocks and duskblades. It could be my own passions bleeding through, or perhaps the fact that some classes don't need that much help (like scouts and knights). I'm not sure when, but many of the upcoming articles also have a few feats and other crunch mixed in.
BadCatMan 04-11-07, 09:27 PM	I liked it, as with all the others. (Good new Realmslore!) But Healers: is that restriction on deity domains a proper game-rule, or simply a strong guideline? And why the Metal domain? My Gondar Cleric's gimmick with healing is 'fixing' people. A Healer of Gond could be a great fixer of broken people. :)
Dielzen 04-11-07, 11:11 PM	Personally, I'm looking forward to a Warmage writeup, the War Wizards are a no-brainer for them, but beyond that I can't think of any "great" fits for them...maybe some of Aglarond's apprentices to the Simbul. A combat sorc of her caliber is the closest you'll get to an official Warmage, imo.
kaor 04-11-07, 11:12 PM	I'm glad this one was interesting. I've realized that not every class is going to make as compelling an adaptation as warlocks and duskblades. It could be my own passions bleeding through, or perhaps the fact that some classes don't need that much help (like scouts and knights). I'm not sure when, but many of the upcoming articles also have a few feats and other crunch mixed in. So why does every magic/melee class have to be written as if it were originated by elves? There was no Netheril? No Imaskar? No Unther or Mulhorand? No Thay? The halflings didn't learn it from Calim long ago? The Dwarves weren't pragmatic to come up with their own version of the Bladesinger? Why is it if I remember your article correctly, to be a non-evil warlock you have to be an elf or fey? That class is probably the most popular of all the classes introduced in the Complete Books. But to play a non evil one you have to be Fey or an elf? Why is it elf, elf, elf? And yes, I hate elves with a passion. The only non-human, gnome, or elf arcane caster I can think of you guys have come up with is Bronia Stonesplitter in the FRCS. Why no more? Why are they not in novels? Or in campaign material?
Dielzen 04-12-07, 12:12 AM	*gives kaor a hug* Elves are intimately connected with the Weave. If magic being predominately centered on Elves (beyond humans) is deeply disturbing you, you may be playing in the wrong setting :weep: Also, keep in mind that previous editions of D&D didn't allow some races (like Dwarves) to even BE arcane spellcasters, so the amount of lore on such groups is, rightly, non-existant.
EytanBernstein 04-12-07, 07:26 AM	I liked it, as with all the others. (Good new Realmslore!) But Healers: is that restriction on deity domains a proper game-rule, or simply a strong guideline? And why the Metal domain? My Gondar Cleric's gimmick with healing is 'fixing' people. A Healer of Gond could be a great fixer of broken people. :) You're certainly welcome to make healers of other religions, but given the strong focus on one niche, I decided to limit it to gods with the healing domain.
EytanBernstein 04-12-07, 07:27 AM	Personally, I'm looking forward to a Warmage writeup, the War Wizards are a no-brainer for them, but beyond that I can't think of any "great" fits for them...maybe some of Aglarond's apprentices to the Simbul. A combat sorc of her caliber is the closest you'll get to an official Warmage, imo. This one should be coming out fairly soon. War Wizards aren't necessarily as good a choice for warmages as you might think. They certainly can be found there, but are sometimes too limited in their abiilities to perform many of the functions required of a War Wizard.
EytanBernstein 04-12-07, 07:31 AM	So why does every magic/melee class have to be written as if it were originated by elves? There was no Netheril? No Imaskar? No Unther or Mulhorand? No Thay? The halflings didn't learn it from Calim long ago? The Dwarves weren't pragmatic to come up with their own version of the Bladesinger? Why is it if I remember your article correctly, to be a non-evil warlock you have to be an elf or fey? That class is probably the most popular of all the classes introduced in the Complete Books. But to play a non evil one you have to be Fey or an elf? Why is it elf, elf, elf? And yes, I hate elves with a passion. The only non-human, gnome, or elf arcane caster I can think of you guys have come up with is Bronia Stonesplitter in the FRCS. Why no more? Why are they not in novels? Or in campaign material? I think you'll find, if you keep following the series, that there is a ton of material related to Netheril, Imaskar, Unther, and Mulhorand, not to mention Raumathar, Shoon, and a variety of other human empires. I don't share your hatred of the elves, but I am not favoring them any more or less than the setting generally dictates. I also include lots of information about dwarves, halflings, gnomes, planetouched, and other races. You seem to be ignoring the fact that most of the healer entry had to do with dwarves in this article and didn't mention elves at all. There will continue to be elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, half-orcs, planetouched, and other races discussed. If elves have slightly more coverage than dwarves, it's because they were one of the most important races in the history of the setting.
GothicDan 04-12-07, 11:42 AM	The only non-human, gnome, or elf arcane caster I can think of you guys have come up with is Bronia Stonesplitter in the FRCS. Why no more? Why are they not in novels? Or in campaign material? Because in previous edition, only humans, elves, half-elves, and gnomes could be arcane spellcasters. And even if the rules are different, the cultural traditions still stand. I'd personally find it incredibly idiotic to erase thousands of years of tradition because the mechanics changed.
ORC_Tao 04-12-07, 12:06 PM	Kind of a silly complaint... but unless I miss my mark, the Scout is from Complete Adventurer, not PHB II.
SATA 04-12-07, 01:01 PM	Kind of a silly complaint... but unless I miss my mark, the Scout is from Complete Adventurer, not PHB II. You are right and I can explain it. I create this thread when the first Class Chronicles came out and I didn't knew that the other classes for the complete books would be adapted too, it was to be expected but anyway... Members of the community keep posting here, exchanging their views as well as mr. Bernstein, and for that I'm glad so I hope there is no problem with the title of the thread or if it's possible change it and get rid off the part -PHB II-. Thanks.
entropysoda 04-17-07, 09:53 AM	These articles are among the best written on the site. Kudos to the author. I would even be interested in his writeup of all the other classes (even the base ones in PHB) and how they tie into the Realms. Fascinating reads, thank you!
Alediran 04-17-07, 10:59 AM	So why does every magic/melee class have to be written as if it were originated by elves? There was no Netheril? No Imaskar? No Unther or Mulhorand? No Thay? The halflings didn't learn it from Calim long ago? The Dwarves weren't pragmatic to come up with their own version of the Bladesinger? Why is it if I remember your article correctly, to be a non-evil warlock you have to be an elf or fey? That class is probably the most popular of all the classes introduced in the Complete Books. But to play a non evil one you have to be Fey or an elf? Why is it elf, elf, elf? And yes, I hate elves with a passion. The only non-human, gnome, or elf arcane caster I can think of you guys have come up with is Bronia Stonesplitter in the FRCS. Why no more? Why are they not in novels? Or in campaign material? Because in 1ed elf was a class that was basically a Fighter/Mage? After all, you need a lot of patience and training to be able to fight and use magic at the same time. Elves have both the tradition and the time to become fighter/mages. Humans could become Spellswords (the only PrC available for everybody that is a true Fighter/Mage), but that will mean they spent less time becoming better in one of them. Humans are very competitive after all, most of them would want to become the best Wizard or the best Fighter. That's not counting that humans who love and practice magic see the rest of the classes as c***, and humans who become fighters tend to dislike magic, believing that magic is for the weak, while elves usually don't have this way of thinking (even the most powerfull Elven High Magic knows that a sword can be as deadly as a spell and that it has it's uses, and elven fighters never see magic as the way of weakness).
Fabius Maximus 04-17-07, 01:04 PM	You forgot the Eldrtich Knight, the ultimate generic gish class. It's available to every race.
Alediran 04-17-07, 03:09 PM	No I didn't forgett it, but after playing with it for a while I concluded that it's only usefull if you play a Wizard/Sorcerer who specializes in touch spells, but not as a true Fighter/Mage PrC like the Spellsword or Bladesinger wich, among other things, give the possibility to cast while wearing armor.
EytanBernstein 04-17-07, 06:05 PM	These articles are among the best written on the site. Kudos to the author. I would even be interested in his writeup of all the other classes (even the base ones in PHB) and how they tie into the Realms. Fascinating reads, thank you! Thanks! I thought about writing about the PHB classes, but there are a lot of complicated issues that go into those, not the least of which is that there is already a lot of existing material for most of the classes. A few of the classes in the core books have less detail (sorcerers for example). I'd have to think about how such a thing could be accomplished.
Valgard 04-25-07, 07:26 AM	I wanted to comment these new ones. Talking about warmages, I think there's too much focus on the "they are inferior, but we need them" idea. That's probably why there are so little warmages compared to wizards or sorcerers, althought they are quite popular: Raumathar, Thay, Cormanthyr, Cormyr, and Halruaa. If they are in Halruaa, is there also an old Netherese tradition focusing on warmagic? Concerning Raumathar, I liked the story of the Raumathari warmage ghost (adventure hook?) and I'll probably use it when my fellows party go to Narfell and Rashemen. I liked the favored soul from the start and, with more than 139 deities on Faerūn, then, enjoy. :schemes: And the examples provided in the article were fantastic. A normal and predictable author would mention favored souls of Tyr, Ilmater, Bane, Tempus and many other Faerūnian deities, but a genius mentions favored souls of Tiamat (does he have the Dragon Magic variant features? they were awesome!), Urdlen (and also a spriggan... a return to the origins), and Baravar Cloakshadow (with beguiler and mystic theurge levels). In one word: Unearthly.
EytanBernstein 04-25-07, 03:21 PM	I think that the inferiority issue is accurate for some cultures. A lot of magically powerful societies would view warmages as powerful, but easily control spell canons. That doesn't mean it's true, but some cultures would. As for the favored souls, I did go for some more esoteric gods because I wanted to let people make their own favored souls for the common religion. Also, I like exploring some of the lesser known religions and Curdle was just perfect for Urdlen. You can expect to see the confrontation between Embrel and Curdle pop up in the future.
GothicDan 04-26-07, 04:53 AM	Talking about warmages, I think there's too much focus on the "they are inferior, but we need them" idea. That's probably why there are so little warmages compared to wizards or sorcerers, althought they are quite popular: Raumathar, Thay, Cormanthyr, Cormyr, and Halruaa. If they are in Halruaa, is there also an old Netherese tradition focusing on warmagic? Concerning Raumathar, I liked the story of the Raumathari warmage ghost (adventure hook?) and I'll probably use it when my fellows party go to Narfell and Rashemen. Halruaa and Thay are perhaps the worst possible choices for Warmages, since both contries focus so heavily on the idea that specialization in the classical philosophical schools of magic (abjuration, divination, etc.) is the true path to overall power as a culture. Netherese magic focused on three schools: Variation, Invention, and Mentalism. After the Fall, survivors of Netheril most likely reverted back to the more familiar schools of philosophy I listed above. Specifically, in Halruaa, some of the most well-respected schools of specialization include divination, conjuration, and evocation. Considering how elitist Halruaa is, and how tradition-bound, there'd be no real reason for a Warmage tradition to develop when Evokers are already so well-respected and more versatile in the long-run, and the fact that Netheril never developed anything remotely similar to warmage magic during its time. The Elves of Cormanthyr focused on either being mages (generalist wizards), dualists (casting only two opposing schools of magic), or much more rarely, specialists as they are known in the modern magical system. Ultimately, Sun Elves would probably see simple warmages as crude, ineloquent, ignorant, and uncouth; they have literally millennia of wizardly knowledge in their libraries. Moon Elves would probably consider the path too specialized, as would Wood Elves. The only real possibility I could see for a tradition of Elven warmages would be old Ilythiir (LEoF specifically states that they turned their magic towards wholly destructive causes). Raumathar is a child, thematically, of old Imaskar, which was known for its powerful evocations and artificing. A Raumathari Warmage would wholly give up any ability to do anything on the artificing side of things, and we already have a PrC (see Unapproachable East) to represent their evocation side. Personally, I wouldn't see a problem with a Warmage taking the Raumathari Battlemage PrC (provided he/she could fill the requirements), but the surviving knowledge, culture, and active propagation of Raumathari lore is really too thin to base ANOTHER entire magical tradition off of (we already have the PrC), in my opinion. The War Wizards of Cormyr act as an elite force of mobile, versatile war-ready spellcasters that send and receive missives, spy, divine battle plans, guard key nobles and royalty, as well as control the battle field via a wide number of spell possibilites. Simply put, the War Wizard of Cormyr PrC gives them enough evocation-'oomph' without actually restricting them from doing their other duties.
Valgard 04-28-07, 06:03 AM	Thanks for such a deeper impression of this, Dan, specially the clarification of Netherese and the question of having warmagic tradition. I also agree in the aspect of more respected evokers rather than warmages, and I liked those examples you provided. I see the warmage more like an specialized sorcerer, with some of their 'social limitations', let's say, they are more nomadic and independent, so they don't form great associations or guilds.
GothicDan 04-28-07, 08:44 PM	I'm glad you appreciated it, Valgard. Most people don't want to actually hear logical, cultural reasons why certain things DON'T fit into specific parts of the Realms. They only want to be told whatever will make things easier, regardless of truth or suitability. :)
Zanan 04-29-07, 04:40 AM	With regard to the official articles on these classes ... as the Realms are very detailed and so diverse, some additional official sentences on further choices for these classes would be immensely helpful.* While it is fine to go into detail in certain regions and ages, a few general words would be useful to adopt more of the extra classes to the Realms "more easily"**. *e.g: On Archivists (Heroes of Horror), something like: Many Faerūnian faiths have Archivists on missions collecting more spells, prayers, and lore, so this class would be more often encountered on the roads (living a life of an adventurer) than the normal cleric. ... would be useful to introduce this class, without going into too much detail. **While many have no problems with adapting anything or everything to the setting, I know quite a few who simply feel more comfortable if they have official back-up, so to speak.
MerrikCale 04-29-07, 07:40 AM	You can expect to see the confrontation between Embrel and Curdle pop up in the future. There ya go dropping these little tags again
EytanBernstein 04-30-07, 05:02 PM	It's one of the small joys of freelancing. (This is in response to the comment about tags)
MerrikCale 04-30-07, 09:01 PM	It's one of the small joys of freelancing. (This is in response to the comment about tags) must be fun
Burningspear 05-01-07, 09:20 PM	I like the flavour for the Duskblade, too. But I still don't like the class. The only PHB II class that has a place in the game is the Dragon Shaman, IMO. That is the one write up i dislike from the beginning, i think the Barbarians have to many different infringements on their territory already, not to add one more with no specific reason but to find the easiest way to write the class into existence of Faeruhn...
Fabius Maximus 05-02-07, 07:48 AM	That is the one write up i dislike from the beginning, i think the Barbarians have to many different infringements on their territory already, not to add one more with no specific reason but to find the easiest way to write the class into existence of Faeruhn... I don't quite get what you want to say. How does the Dragons Shaman steal away from the Barbarian? It is said in the PHB II that the DS is mainly a melee combatant. But the class isn't designed for that, but rather for a supporting role. And there is no one hindering you to make the DS rare.
AllisterH 06-06-07, 09:52 AM	re: From the ToB thread. Nice integration of arguably two of the more unique core classes so far. The Factotum and the spellthief. As you mentioned, Dragon Shamans are easy to integrate into the Realms but the factotum seems like a new concept for the Realms (wasn't there a spellthief kit for rogues in 2e?). Will we see new feats for other upcoming classes as well? Really liked that (were they feats that just got cut from the book or were they brand new feats you ran past the creators of said classes?)
GothicDan 06-06-07, 01:55 PM	I'm weird. The only classes which I find difficult working into established settings are magic-using classes. This is largely how I view magic as the 'physics' of a world. I'd love to see more adaptions of thieves, fighters, and the like, though. These I can see springing up in just a few years/decades, whereas realistically I don't see whole new spellcasting classes developing until after centuries of research and experimentation.
EytanBernstein 06-06-07, 03:36 PM	re: From the ToB thread. Nice integration of arguably two of the more unique core classes so far. The Factotum and the spellthief. As you mentioned, Dragon Shamans are easy to integrate into the Realms but the factotum seems like a new concept for the Realms (wasn't there a spellthief kit for rogues in 2e?). Will we see new feats for other upcoming classes as well? Really liked that (were they feats that just got cut from the book or were they brand new feats you ran past the creators of said classes?) Yes, you will see new feats in some upcoming articles (though not all). These aren't cut from a book. Everything you see is brand new.
Valgard 06-06-07, 04:02 PM	I've seen these two this afternoon (here in Barcelona, of course :D ) and I have to say that I liked these ones too. Mr Bernstein is making a good job on these theme... Go on! :clap: I liked the concept of godsblood... but maybe this is too much specific to make the spellthief a more common class, so the other ideas are going to be less rare than expected; I like the exposition to wild magic as a good reason to create spellthiefs. Another option is to think it as a 'variant sorcerer bloodline'. Those so popular ideas that claim that sorcerers are descended from dragons, outsiders or some kinds of magical beasts, could be modified to specify a single kind of monsters or types. Isn't there any magical creature or monster with such an special ability that reminds spell stealing?
AllisterH 06-06-07, 04:52 PM	Heh. Something got pointed out to me and Eytan hopefully you can help. The Feat, "Font of Inspiration" can be taken multiple times. When you take it multiple times, does it overwrite the previous bonus or do you add to the bonus. For example, say at level 1, you take this feat. You gain 1 bonus IP. Now you're human and use your human bonus feat and take the feat again. Do you now have 2 bonus IP (the feat overwrites the previous bonus) or do you have 3 bonus IP (adds to the previous bonus)?
BadCatMan 06-07-07, 05:47 AM	This series is the thing I most look forward to on the WotC site. Thanks! Will you be covering Psionics classes later, in addition to the other alternate magic systems? I think the Factotum is a great class for the quintessential, archetypal, classic Faerunian adventurer. Or a Harper, which is about the same thing. Skill-monkey, warrior, spell-caster and part-time priest, a bit of everything. Usually these characters get statted out as high-level multiclass horrors just to accommodate everything (and I guess is responsible for the rising levels of NPCs). Factotum would fit them perfectly, and at a lower level. The Spellthief entry was odd, with the Godsblood and 'spirit of theft' of the Time of Troubles, though I find it makes an interesting twist on what seemed to be a dull and awkward class. Hexblades: what, no Beshaba? :)
EytanBernstein 06-07-07, 06:41 AM	I've seen these two this afternoon (here in Barcelona, of course :D ) and I have to say that I liked these ones too. Mr Bernstein is making a good job on these theme... Go on! :clap: I liked the concept of godsblood... but maybe this is too much specific to make the spellthief a more common class, so the other ideas are going to be less rare than expected; I like the exposition to wild magic as a good reason to create spellthiefs. Another option is to think it as a 'variant sorcerer bloodline'. Those so popular ideas that claim that sorcerers are descended from dragons, outsiders or some kinds of magical beasts, could be modified to specify a single kind of monsters or types. Isn't there any magical creature or monster with such an special ability that reminds spell stealing? Thanks. I am quite pleased with the godsblood idea. Spellthieves are not that common a character choice, so I wouldn't worry too much if their origin is a little more obscure than some other classes. If this makes people want to play them more, I'll be happy.
EytanBernstein 06-07-07, 06:43 AM	Heh. Something got pointed out to me and Eytan hopefully you can help. The Feat, "Font of Inspiration" can be taken multiple times. When you take it multiple times, does it overwrite the previous bonus or do you add to the bonus. For example, say at level 1, you take this feat. You gain 1 bonus IP. Now you're human and use your human bonus feat and take the feat again. Do you now have 2 bonus IP (the feat overwrites the previous bonus) or do you have 3 bonus IP (adds to the previous bonus)? They stack in a manner similar to the Psionic Talent feat (I believe that's the name). FoI 1 = + 1 inspiration point FoI 2 = +2 inspiration points FoI 3 = +3 inspiration points ------------------------------- +6 Inspiration points If someone wants to devote their entire set of feats (limited by intelligence) to this feat, they can get a lot of inspiration points.
EytanBernstein 06-07-07, 06:50 AM	Thanks! The psionics entry is indeed one of the most extensive I have written. It should be coming up fairly soon (within a month or so). Beshaba certainly could have been on the list. I think I went with deity's with the Vengeance domain, but it's not a stretch to include her.
Mad Mage 06-11-07, 01:28 PM	Mr. Bernstein, I have to say, great job so far with all the articles on these classes. :cool: However, I'd like to expose an error I found on the article on Spellthieves and Factotems. Your first Spellthief NPC reads as follows: Anwhar Bellgate (NE male Chondathan rogue/spellthief 6). Sorry I didn't post sooner, but I've been up to my eyeballs in other obligations. :embarrass
EytanBernstein 06-11-07, 03:34 PM	Mr. Bernstein, I have to say, great job so far with all the articles on these classes. :cool: However, I'd like to expose an error I found on the article on Spellthieves and Factotems. Your first Spellthief NPC reads as follows: Anwhar Bellgate (NE male Chondathan rogue/spellthief 6). Sorry I didn't post sooner, but I've been up to my eyeballs in other obligations. :embarrass Thanks. That should read Anwhar Bellgate (NE male Chondathan rogue 3/spellthief 6).
bitter thorn 06-12-07, 12:36 AM	I rather liked this bit.:devil: A truly frightening thing occurred among the goblin population of the Mines of Tethyamar. While the diminutive, green-skinned humanoids are used to worghests -- goblins who have crossbred with barghests -- in their midst, they are not used to the presence of powerful warlocks. These individuals are rarely the result of natural bloodlines because, generally, barghest blood is not potent enough to propagate warlocks. This all changed when the immense greater barghest known as Tarkomang moved into the area. Tarkomang is one of the largest barghests ever to live in Faerun, a monstrosity of such immense size that his goblin and worghest servants had to hollow out the inside of a small mountain to house him. In the few decades since Tarkomang entered the Mines, he has spawned a number of worghest warlocks and created pacts with residents. While generally preferring worghests for his pacts, he has granted powers to a small number of the more martial goblins. It is unknown if Tarkomang has any plans for greater domination, but his great size, mammoth appetite, and large following could become a serious problem for the nomadic populations of the Desertmouth Mountain region.
EytanBernstein 06-12-07, 05:49 AM	I'm glad. Tarkomang is really scary. I wouldn't want to meet him in a dark... tunnel.
AllisterH 06-12-07, 11:07 AM	They stack in a manner similar to the Psionic Talent feat (I believe that's the name). FoI 1 = + 1 inspiration point FoI 2 = +2 inspiration points FoI 3 = +3 inspiration points ------------------------------- +6 Inspiration points If someone wants to devote their entire set of feats (limited by intelligence) to this feat, they can get a lot of inspiration points. Thanks for the reply.... Er, I think thought you might want to change it somewhat....Cunning Surge has no limititation and these IP allow for a lot of surges == more actions == much more powerful class. Either a limit as to how many times it can be taken or a fixed value such as +2 IP/feat.
EytanBernstein 06-12-07, 07:01 PM	Each use of that ability requires 3 points of inspiration. I really don't think this feat is going to make any factotum character that powerful. Competitive perhaps, but not dominating.
Valgard 06-13-07, 11:04 AM	First, with the article itself... swashbucklers and marshals didn't have great news, simply the examples. About the dragonfire adept, it's good the option to improve warlock/dragonfire adept build. :dragon: And then, the most unexpected surprise: The list of all draconic deities that have presence on Toril. After nearly a year waiting for the Dragons of Faerūn web-enhancement about the draconic deities, there are a few surprises. Definitely, the list of monstrous deities in Faiths & Pantheons, if someone didn't already noticed, is completely foul. Null isn't anymore and Chronepsis and Falazure make their appereance. Similar with Hlal and Aasterinian, they are completely fragmented in two different deities. So, is this all completely canon, or Wizards has something more to add? You can now look at Draconomicon and add the domains from the Player's Guide to Faerūn listed for each deity with no remorse while you ask yourself "is this right"?
EytanBernstein 06-13-07, 03:24 PM	First, with the article itself... swashbucklers and marshals didn't have great news, simply the examples. About the dragonfire adept, it's good the option to improve warlock/dragonfire adept build. :dragon: And then, the most unexpected surprise: The list of all draconic deities that have presence on Toril. After nearly a year waiting for the Dragons of Faerūn web-enhancement about the draconic deities, there are a few surprises. Definitely, the list of monstrous deities in Faiths & Pantheons, if someone didn't already noticed, is completely foul. Null isn't anymore and Chronepsis and Falazure make their appereance. Similar with Hlal and Aasterinian, they are completely fragmented in two different deities. So, is this all completely canon, or Wizards has something more to add? You can now look at Draconomicon and add the domains from the Player's Guide to Faerūn listed for each deity with no remorse while you ask yourself "is this right"? When it comes to marshalls an swashbucklers (along with knights, scouts, and other more generic classes), examples suffice (IMO) because the classes are simple to add to the Realms Website articles are indeed canon. So anyone looking for a list of deities can use these. It's just a list - nothing in depth - but I included it to satisfy some of the people who have been asking for it.
Mad Mage 06-14-07, 12:42 AM	When it comes to marshalls an swashbucklers (along with knights, scouts, and other more generic classes), examples suffice (IMO) because the classes are simple to add to the Realms Website articles are indeed canon. So anyone looking for a list of deities can use these. It's just a list - nothing in depth - but I included it to satisfy some of the people who have been asking for it. Mr. Bernstein, I can see where you're coming from. If you ask me, there wasn't much more you could add. What surprised me, though, was the confirmation of Jarlaxle having Swashbuckler levels. :love:
EytanBernstein 06-14-07, 06:50 AM	Mr. Bernstein, I can see where you're coming from. If you ask me, there wasn't much more you could add. What surprised me, though, was the confirmation of Jarlaxle having Swashbuckler levels. :love: Well, for those who play with these classes frequently, it is a logical conclusion. If people don't want to use them, they can keep Jarlaxle as a fighter or perhaps a fighter/rogue.
AllisterH 06-14-07, 03:27 PM	It makes sense that both marshalls and swashbucklers (doubly so for this class) don't need much adaptation. Swashbucklers have been a part of the Realms since the very first Waterdeep sourcebook. In 2E, the swashbuckler kit was always a popular choice for urban campaigns so no need to work them in. Somewhat to a lesser extent, marshalls have existed in the Realms. Nice feat BTW. I always wondered why Dragon Magic didn't have that feat to begin with...Still, I am somewhat surprised we got an update so quickly though. Usually, it has been once a month but a quicker release would be great (HINT, HINT :D )
MerrikCale 06-14-07, 08:52 PM	Well, for those who play with these classes frequently, it is a logical conclusion. If people don't want to use them, they can keep Jarlaxle as a fighter or perhaps a fighter/rogue. I would think he's may even be a swashbuckler/rogue
EytanBernstein 06-15-07, 06:06 AM	It makes sense that both marshalls and swashbucklers (doubly so for this class) don't need much adaptation. Swashbucklers have been a part of the Realms since the very first Waterdeep sourcebook. In 2E, the swashbuckler kit was always a popular choice for urban campaigns so no need to work them in. Somewhat to a lesser extent, marshalls have existed in the Realms. Nice feat BTW. I always wondered why Dragon Magic didn't have that feat to begin with...Still, I am somewhat surprised we got an update so quickly though. Usually, it has been once a month but a quicker release would be great (HINT, HINT :D ) Up until this article, it was once every two weeks. This one was after one week.
Joesph_kurr 06-15-07, 05:31 PM	So Mr. Bernstein what can expect in the next artical? BTW I have really enjoyed this series.
Mad Mage 06-15-07, 05:52 PM	Folks, allow me to say this much, from my own opinion. From what I see, Mr. Bernstein's mostly trying to just present ways of using these classes for the players. Okay, so a few articles had a few NPCs noted within them, new or not. That's not the point. The point is that Mr. Bernstein's giving readers and players ideas on how to handle these classes above all else. It's not about who high up in the NPC bracket has X amount of levels in Y class. It's about the fun a player can have with those classes. ;)
EytanBernstein 06-16-07, 11:05 AM	So Mr. Bernstein what can expect in the next artical? BTW I have really enjoyed this series. Thanks. I don't actually have any input concerning when the articles are released. I'd estimate that you'll see a new entry once every week to 2 weeks. There should be enough content to continue into the fall.
EytanBernstein 06-16-07, 11:06 AM	Folks, allow me to say this much, from my own opinion. From what I see, Mr. Bernstein's mostly trying to just present ways of using these classes for the players. Okay, so a few articles had a few NPCs noted within them, new or not. That's not the point. The point is that Mr. Bernstein's giving readers and players ideas on how to handle these classes above all else. It's not about who high up in the NPC bracket has X amount of levels in Y class. It's about the fun a player can have with those classes. ;) That is the general intention. Any mention of well known NPCs is just to illustrate good examples of members of certain classes.
Valgard 06-20-07, 04:12 PM	I can't find the words that show exactly what I felt after reading this amazing article. The Class Chronicles are evolving to Race Chronicles as well! I read many threads about possible origins for the Elans and Bernstein's article is the best by far. I hope more authors will follow the idea of these articles. Althougth mr. Bernstein's only writing about the new classes, I thing the website should be a gate to give feedback on released material, and adapt it to specific campaign settings is an excellent idea. Indeed, they began with Eberron (I remember some books being 'adapted' in articles, one of them was Libris Mortis), but there weren't many of them and they were in Eberron, so I care nothing for them. Does anyone have Complete Champion? From what I know, if no feedback on this book for the Realms is granted, you will do the best by no buying it. (This is not propaganda!).
EytanBernstein 06-20-07, 06:42 PM	I'm really glad you are enjoying the series. I am quite pleased with how the elan entry came out. I wanted to keep true to what Ed Bonny developed in Lost Empires of Faerun while still allowing for the growth of Realmslore and character options.
MerrikCale 06-20-07, 09:17 PM	another home run
Mad Mage 06-20-07, 09:36 PM	Yeah, I'd pretty much give it 2 thumbs up. Here's another thing I spotted, from around the end of the psionic goblinoids entry: Wronsa's consort, the bugbear priestess Pruet (CE female bugbear cleric [Hruggek]) Hope you don't mind me showing these. Mostly looking to find what you were intending, Mr. Bernstein. :embarrass
EytanBernstein 06-21-07, 05:48 AM	Yeah, I'd pretty much give it 2 thumbs up. Here's another thing I spotted, from around the end of the psionic goblinoids entry: Hope you don't mind me showing these. Mostly looking to find what you were intending, Mr. Bernstein. :embarrass No problem. It's good to amend these little errors. She is a 6th level cleric of Hruggek
BadCatMan 06-21-07, 06:07 AM	All good stuff as usual, with some attention for Chessenta (though I recognise that Skoalam from Ed's bits and pieces at Candlekeep) and Tchazzar and Psionics and Jhaamdath. I suppose it would be fair to make Maldraedior a source of dragonfire adept pacts (via Kalzareinad)? Only 12 Elan? No long-lived immortals, no restarting-your-life or secret societies? :( Would it still make sense to allow other Elan in the Realms, such as strange mutations or the old secret societies idea? I think that regional feat would be easily adapted to any kind of Elan. Scion Of The Twelve seems a little strong. Though I guess Detect Magic at will can be easily grabbed elsewhere (Warlock), and it's only Clairsentiences. I'm not sure. You said in the Xeph thread that these would be the only psionic races covered, as only these existed in the Realms. What about Thri-Kreen?
Valgard 06-21-07, 08:55 AM	You said in the Xeph thread that these would be the only psionic races covered, as only these existed in the Realms. What about Thri-Kreen?The Thri-Kreen appears in Shining South and it has full Expanded Psionics Handbook material to use from, so there's no need to cover them in these articles.
BadCatMan 06-21-07, 09:42 AM	Well, the Blues first appeared in Underdark, and the Duergar referenced there have appeared in various places throughout Realmslore. I was curious, is all.
Cthulhudrew 06-21-07, 11:11 AM	I've really enjoyed these articles, and I like the psionic one, but the sidebar about Wild Psionic Zones seems strange. Given the Psionic/Magic Transparency, shouldn't Wild Magic Zones affect Psionics in the same way (and vice versa)? In which case, there shouldn't be any distinction.
EytanBernstein 06-21-07, 02:13 PM	All good stuff as usual, with some attention for Chessenta (though I recognise that Skoalam from Ed's bits and pieces at Candlekeep) and Tchazzar and Psionics and Jhaamdath. I suppose it would be fair to make Maldraedior a source of dragonfire adept pacts (via Kalzareinad)? Only 12 Elan? No long-lived immortals, no restarting-your-life or secret societies? :( Would it still make sense to allow other Elan in the Realms, such as strange mutations or the old secret societies idea? I think that regional feat would be easily adapted to any kind of Elan. Scion Of The Twelve seems a little strong. Though I guess Detect Magic at will can be easily grabbed elsewhere (Warlock), and it's only Clairsentiences. I'm not sure. You said in the Xeph thread that these would be the only psionic races covered, as only these existed in the Realms. What about Thri-Kreen? Maldraedior is certainly a possible pact source. Those aren't the only races that will be covered. What I said was that I am only covering races with an existing history in the Realms, so no xeph, maenads, or dromites, but yes blues, githyanki, duergar, yuan-ti, and some others. As for more elans in the Realms, that's entirely possible in upcoming events. If some of the 12 should learn more about the original elan and free them (or learn their secret), it's entirely possible. This is just an introduction for them into the Realms. Scion of the Twelve might seem powerful, but I doubt that detect psionics or a bonus to ML on clairsentience powers is so powerful that you'd definitely take it over other feats. Also, it's a regional feat, so it is meant to be a bit more powerful than other feats.
EytanBernstein 06-21-07, 02:17 PM	Well, the Blues first appeared in Underdark, and the Duergar referenced there have appeared in various places throughout Realmslore. I was curious, is all. My thoughts were as Valgard pointed out. The thri-kreen had extensive treatment in Shining South. They certainly could have had an entry, but I can't include everything.
EytanBernstein 06-21-07, 02:21 PM	I've really enjoyed these articles, and I like the psionic one, but the sidebar about Wild Psionic Zones seems strange. Given the Psionic/Magic Transparency, shouldn't Wild Magic Zones affect Psionics in the same way (and vice versa)? In which case, there shouldn't be any distinction. In this case, I decided that these were specific zones that only affected psionics. Yes, it's true that for the most part, they are transparent and if you like, you can have them affect magic, making them simply another source of wild magic zones, but I felt it was appropriate to do a few things that are unique to psionics in the Realms.
Mad Mage 06-21-07, 04:26 PM	Mr. Bernstein, I noticed at least some mention of the Lurk class in that article. Are we going to be presented in any details of the other 20-level psionic classes from Complete Psionic in the next portions of the psionic featurette? For example: the Ardent, the Divine Mind, etc.
EytanBernstein 06-21-07, 05:29 PM	Mr. Bernstein, I noticed at least some mention of the Lurk class in that article. Are we going to be presented in any details of the other 20-level psionic classes from Complete Psionic in the next portions of the psionic featurette? For example: the Ardent, the Divine Mind, etc. Yes indeed. There will be discussions of psions, psychic warriors, soulknives, wilders, ardents, divine minds, lurks, and erudites.
Mad Mage 06-23-07, 12:11 AM	That's good to hear. :) A thought about a majority of these classes (since the start of this entire project) had me wondering... Mr. Bernstein, I'm not sure how much insight you have about the deities of Faerun themselves. Still, do you have any idea (an opinion, at least) if any deities - if statted like in Faiths & Pantheons - should have levels in any of these non-Core classes? If you ask me, the Marshal class tends to fit deities like Ilneval and the Red Knight, while the latter also sounds like a likely candidate for the Knight class, partly due to her name and also by the sound of her entry in the 2nd Ed Realms manual Powers & Pantheons. Valkur, IMHO, may fit well as a Swashbuckler, and due to his status as a former mortal ascended to divinity, would probably have levels in the Fighter class and the Legendary Captain PrC from Stormwrack. Overall, though, do you see any influence of these non-Core classes on the gods and godesses yourself?
MerrikCale 06-23-07, 10:17 AM	Overall, though, do you see any influence of these non-Core classes on the gods and godesses yourself? Well some like the Favored Sould require it. I'm hoping for on Osse connection to Spirit Shamans and a Selunite order of Crusaders dedicated to the destruction of Shar and her Dark Moon Monks
EytanBernstein 06-23-07, 10:22 AM	That's good to hear. :) A thought about a majority of these classes (since the start of this entire project) had me wondering... Mr. Bernstein, I'm not sure how much insight you have about the deities of Faerun themselves. Still, do you have any idea (an opinion, at least) if any deities - if statted like in Faiths & Pantheons - should have levels in any of these non-Core classes? If you ask me, the Marshal class tends to fit deities like Ilneval and the Red Knight, while the latter also sounds like a likely candidate for the Knight class, partly due to her name and also by the sound of her entry in the 2nd Ed Realms manual Powers & Pantheons. Valkur, IMHO, may fit well as a Swashbuckler, and due to his status as a former mortal ascended to divinity, would probably have levels in the Fighter class and the Legendary Captain PrC from Stormwrack. Overall, though, do you see any influence of these non-Core classes on the gods and godesses yourself? I've never been a huge fan of deities having levels. Divine rank seems like a good enough statistic. That said, if you are using levels for deities, some certainly would have levels in appropriate non-PHB classes.
Predah 06-27-07, 07:19 AM	Hello, The PRC's, are they also going to be incorporated in Faerun? Thx
Valgard 06-27-07, 07:34 AM	The PRC's, are they also going to be incorporated in Faerun?I've got two opposing answers: 1. It would be wonderful. 2. It doesn't seem very useful to writers to cover ALL prestige classes. So, my middle answer is: Cover the most useful prestige classes, like those tied to organizations that should not been tied to organizations, such as the Nightsongs, the Daggerspells, the Shadowbanes, and similar ones. As for the new article (Psionic Races Part II), I want to ask where are found the Wingless Wonders, the haun, and the mighty Araumycos... I don't realize where they are.
Aldareth 06-27-07, 07:49 AM	As for the new article (Psionic Races Part II), I want to ask where are found the Wingless Wonders, the haun, and the mighty Araumycos... I don't realize where they are. for araumycos look in "underdark" this fungus covers the complete High Forest
BadCatMan 06-27-07, 08:18 AM	Whee! Wingless Wonders! I was going to throw one of these at my party to see what they'd make of it. :) They appeared in Secrets Of The Magister. They're are ridiculous little creatures with flappy arms, stumpy legs, bodies like turnips and tentacled-tops. They collect shiny treasure, and most are polymorphed humiliated archmages. Have they appeared in a 3.x source, with stats?
MerrikCale 06-27-07, 09:39 AM	I've got two opposing answers: 1. It would be wonderful. 2. It doesn't seem very useful to writers to cover ALL prestige classes. First of all, I'm certain that Etyan has no intention of including PrCs in this series. As for its usefulness, I pretty much agree with Valgard. Perhaps down the road a series covering 15 or so popular PrCs would be interesting. Ya know, like Arcane Archers, Horizon Walkers, Nightsongs, etc
Mad Mage 06-27-07, 02:09 PM	Once again, Mr. Bernstein, great article. I'm suprised Ghostwise Halflings tended to have psionic capabilities, though. :eek: Two things, though: 1) Okay, so the haflling NPC is a Monk/Fist of Zuoken. How does Zuoken fit into the Realms, then? 2) What's the alignment for Frethen Harmswa (Female Githyanki Fighter 10/Psychic Warrior 6)? I'd think Chaotic Evil, but wasn't sure.
MerrikCale 06-27-07, 05:01 PM	How does Zuoken fit into the Realms, then? I must say I'm interested in your response to this as well
Fabius Maximus 06-27-07, 06:26 PM	Just replace 'Fist of Zuoken' with 'Psionic Fist'. It's just the official name for the PrC. You could call it 'Fist of Auppenser', too.
EytanBernstein 06-27-07, 09:50 PM	Just replace 'Fist of Zuoken' with 'Psionic Fist'. It's just the official name for the PrC. You could call it 'Fist of Auppenser', too. Exactly. Consider them to be psionic monks. The word Zuoken isn't important really. As for Frethen Harmswa, she's LE.
Mad Mage 07-04-07, 02:29 AM	Mr. Bernstein, at this point, I'd think Oghma, Deneir, and Labelas Enoreth would be proud of you, as well as a few deities I didn't think of! Amazing articles! :D Clarification of the day: Daltim Flamefist (LN Halruaan domain wizard [fire] 3/psion [shaper] 3/cerebromancer 10). By the sound of the first name, I take it Daltim's a male? Also, what's that "domain wizard" thing from? :help:
BadCatMan 07-04-07, 02:40 AM	Daltim's a guy. He's popped up in several places in old Realmslore. Domain wizard would be the variant from Unearthed Arcana.
MerrikCale 07-08-07, 04:37 PM	Eytan- any chance you'll do a few articles on adapting the more popular non-FR PrCs like this? Things like the Whisperknife, Fatespinner, Bloodhound, and especially PrCs that are very fluffy like the Daggerspell and Shadowbane classes.
EytanBernstein 07-08-07, 08:56 PM	Eytan- any chance you'll do a few articles on adapting the more popular non-FR PrCs like this? Things like the Whisperknife, Fatespinner, Bloodhound, and especially PrCs that are very fluffy like the Daggerspell and Shadowbane classes. There are no plans for PrC articles at the moment. Feel free to contact Wizards with any requests you have.
Valgard 07-11-07, 06:59 AM	Simply one comment about this: The psychic theurge could feel right at home in the Eberron setting but might seem a little out of place in the arcane-dominated Forgotten Realms setting.I don't know what Mr. Jindra and Mr. Brocius know about the Realms, but after reading the new article I think that pshychic theurges are far more common than cerebremancers (that's only an impression). Psionics in the Realms are developing greater connections to deities and this prestige class is gaining greater consideration.
lucas_william 07-11-07, 11:22 AM	Eytan, I had a question about your latest Class Chronicle dealing with Auppenser, "mostly psychic theurges, divine minds, and ardents -- many of whom have taken the Servant of the Fallen feat (from Lost Empires of Faerun)", my question is: Do ardents and divine minds need at least one level of cleric to take this feat?
EytanBernstein 07-11-07, 12:29 PM	Eytan, I had a question about your latest Class Chronicle dealing with Auppenser, "mostly psychic theurges, divine minds, and ardents -- many of whom have taken the Servant of the Fallen feat (from Lost Empires of Faerun)", my question is: Do ardents and divine minds need at least one level of cleric to take this feat? Only someone with cleric levels needs the feat (most psychic theurges). I probably should have punctuated that sentence a bit more clearly.
EytanBernstein 07-11-07, 12:30 PM	Simply one comment about this: I don't know what Mr. Jindra and Mr. Brocius know about the Realms, but after reading the new article I think that pshychic theurges are far more common than cerebremancers (that's only an impression). Psionics in the Realms are developing greater connections to deities and this prestige class is gaining greater consideration. I think this is a development of the two religious themed psionic classes in Complete Psionic. I don't think Mark or Scott were inaccurate in what they expressed at the time they wrote it.
lucas_william 07-11-07, 12:52 PM	Only someone with cleric levels needs the feat (most psychic theurges). I probably should have punctuated that sentence a bit more clearly. One of the benefits of Servant of the Fallen feat is that you can be rasied or resurrected normally instead of being consider Faithless. Are Ardents and Divine Minds consider Faithless for not having an active patron deity? OR can they be rasied normally if they have Auppenser as a patron deity?
Mad Mage 07-11-07, 02:28 PM	Great article like always, Mr. Bernstein. :cool: Hmmmmm.... what classes do we have left to be covered? As far as I can tell, there are these. 1) The 20-level classes from Tome of Battle. 2) The 20-level classes from Magic of Incarnum. 3) The classes from Tome of Magic. 4) The Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine. 5)The Samurai from Complete Warrior. 6) The Wu-Jen from Complete Arcane. 7) The Shugenja from Complete Divine. Whether pact and truenaming magic exists in the Realms, I don't know. The Shadowcrafter, though, I have a feeling, doesn't exist unless you make it such. The last 3, though, may have a somewhat similar origin to the Ninja class, if they are featured at all. Overall, I have a feeling one of first 2 are next.
sleyvas 07-11-07, 02:40 PM	Simply one comment about this: I don't know what Mr. Jindra and Mr. Brocius know about the Realms, but after reading the new article I think that pshychic theurges are far more common than cerebremancers (that's only an impression). Psionics in the Realms are developing greater connections to deities and this prestige class is gaining greater consideration. Yeah, I was looking over some of this as ideas. My first thought was a divine mind/cleric or divine mind/favored soul (since you get divine grace with divine mind and favored soul uses charisma). However, you'd have to go to at least 8th lvl in divine mind to qualify. The ardent/cleric makes for a good mix since you're only building wisdom, the drawback being you have limited mantles and thus a limited psionic build (still a good choice though). Then there's the psion/cleric, more flexible, but you have to build both int and wisdom. The psion/archivist and wilder/favored soul would make some interesting builds for those that only want 1 "mental" stat to have to worry about (int or char respectively). In fact, the psion/archivist/psychic theurge would really fit a deneirian priest, which was one of the example religions. How close is Cadderly's church to where Jaamdath used to be... I know its somewhere near.
EytanBernstein 07-11-07, 04:35 PM	One of the benefits of Servant of the Fallen feat is that you can be rasied or resurrected normally instead of being consider Faithless. Are Ardents and Divine Minds consider Faithless for not having an active patron deity? OR can they be rasied normally if they have Auppenser as a patron deity? That is a gray area of the rules at the moment. I would say that they could be raised normally if they had Auppenser as a patron deity, but I would probably add in that it would have to be by a cleric (or favored soul) with the Servant of the Fallen feat. This is entirely unofficial, however.
EytanBernstein 07-11-07, 04:36 PM	Great article like always, Mr. Bernstein. :cool: Hmmmmm.... what classes do we have left to be covered? As far as I can tell, there are these. 1) The 20-level classes from Tome of Battle. 2) The 20-level classes from Magic of Incarnum. 3) The classes from Tome of Magic. 4) The Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine. 5)The Samurai from Complete Warrior. 6) The Wu-Jen from Complete Arcane. 7) The Shugenja from Complete Divine. Whether pact and truenaming magic exists in the Realms, I don't know. The Shadowcrafter, though, I have a feeling, doesn't exist unless you make it such. The last 3, though, may have a somewhat similar origin to the Ninja class, if they are featured at all. Overall, I have a feeling one of first 2 are next. Your list pretty much covers what I'm planning, though not necessarily in the same order.
EytanBernstein 07-11-07, 04:38 PM	Yeah, I was looking over some of this as ideas. My first thought was a divine mind/cleric or divine mind/favored soul (since you get divine grace with divine mind and favored soul uses charisma). However, you'd have to go to at least 8th lvl in divine mind to qualify. The ardent/cleric makes for a good mix since you're only building wisdom, the drawback being you have limited mantles and thus a limited psionic build (still a good choice though). Then there's the psion/cleric, more flexible, but you have to build both int and wisdom. The psion/archivist and wilder/favored soul would make some interesting builds for those that only want 1 "mental" stat to have to worry about (int or char respectively). In fact, the psion/archivist/psychic theurge would really fit a deneirian priest, which was one of the example religions. How close is Cadderly's church to where Jaamdath used to be... I know its somewhere near. Actually, I think ardent/erudite psychic theurge makes a great combination, especially with the current Mind's Eye material that allows erudites to learn arcane spells as powers. Such a character would have the greatest number of spells off the sor/wiz, bard, psionic, and divine lists.
lucas_william 07-11-07, 05:21 PM	That is a gray area of the rules at the moment. I would say that they could be raised normally if they had Auppenser as a patron deity, but I would probably add in that it would have to be by a cleric (or favored soul) with the Servant of the Fallen feat. This is entirely unofficial, however. Thank you for answering my questions. Hopefully, sometime soon that gray area will become clear on how to handle this issue. Thanks again.
Mad Mage 07-11-07, 09:48 PM	Your list pretty much covers what I'm planning, though not necessarily in the same order. I expected as much. Honestly, I'm probably one of the worst people in the world at reading minds. :embarrass Anyways, Mr. Bernstein, I was thinking... The Spirit Shaman class, of all others not involved in an alternate spellcasting system, intrigues me. I would think it would best fit in a faith like that of Uthgar or Ubtao, due to its more primal feel. I mean, for both deities a Cleric or Favored Soul both sound a hint too civilized to make up a majority of their worship. Uthgar also sounds like he's not savage enough to be have many (if any) Adepts among his ranks, maybe some clerics and Druids, but most likely Spirit Shamans. Ubtao may likely have some Adepts and Druids, but very few clerics, or maybe have Spirit Shamans in place of either Clerics or Adepts. Still, that's just my train of thought, not what you may have in mind.
MerrikCale 07-11-07, 10:38 PM	The Spirit Shaman class, of all others not involved in an alternate spellcasting system, intrigues me. I would think it would best fit in a faith like that of Uthgar or Ubtao, due to its more primal feel. Actually I think it works best as the religious system of another continent, such as Osse
Valgard 07-12-07, 04:53 AM	The region of Faerūn that has more spirit flavour is, with no doubt, the Unapproachable East and, more specific, Rashemen, with all the fey in Lake Ashane and the spirit folk. The spirit shaman would feel 'at home' in that place.
Diffan 07-12-07, 08:22 AM	Your list pretty much covers what I'm planning, though not necessarily in the same order. Also, there's 1 lvl 20 class in Dragon Magic. Though I'm not sure if that's been covered already.
EytanBernstein 07-12-07, 11:00 AM	Also, there's 1 lvl 20 class in Dragon Magic. Though I'm not sure if that's been covered already. Dragonfire adepts were covered a few weeks ago.
sleyvas 07-12-07, 11:44 AM	Actually, I think ardent/erudite psychic theurge makes a great combination, especially with the current Mind's Eye material that allows erudites to learn arcane spells as powers. Such a character would have the greatest number of spells off the sor/wiz, bard, psionic, and divine lists. I don't follow, the psychic theurge I saw in the article link was for a divine/psion blend (unless I'm misreading and you're saying that ardents and erudites would blend well with clerics and archivists). Good point bringing up the erudite alternate version of psion. I had not even considered it. It would especially fit well with archivists, as both are people seeking out knowledge by digging into various bits of lore (just as erudite/wizard/cerebremancer would fit well). You know, we've seen the psionic/divine prestige, psionic/arcane prestige, divine/arcane prestige, arcane/arcane prestige, incarnum/arcane prestige, incarnum/divine prestige, binder/arcane prestige, binder/divine prestige, shadowcaster/arcane, truenamer/divine, truenamer/arcane, invocation/arcane, and invocation/divine. We haven't seen the psionic combination with anything much more than arcane and the mind's eye article for divine. Granted, I don't see psionics fitting much of those... However, I could see incarnum and binders possibly working out (one works to bind soul energy to themselves, the other forces pacts with "otherworldly beings"). I could definitely see this, but only if the class had an evil perspective (possibly some necrocarnate experimentation?). Anyway, that's a side topic, but it popped in my head.
Valgard 07-12-07, 12:48 PM	You know, we've seen the psionic/divine prestige, psionic/arcane prestige, divine/arcane prestige, arcane/arcane prestige, incarnum/arcane prestige, incarnum/divine prestige, binder/arcane prestige, binder/divine prestige, shadowcaster/arcane, truenamer/divine, truenamer/arcane, invocation/arcane, and invocation/divine. We haven't seen the psionic combination with anything much more than arcane and the mind's eye article for divine. Granted, I don't see psionics fitting much of those... It's not difficult to create your own prestige classes, and with so much examples I think there aren't many ways to make them. The basic is the mystic theurge: Progression of arcane and divine every level, poor attack, only good will and the prerequisites are, effectively, to be an arcane spellcaster / divine spellcaster at least total level 5, with the appropiate knowledge skills as prerequisite. Usually you may also swap spellcasting prerequisites with psionics prerequisites, as they are the more similar 'magic'.
lucas_william 07-12-07, 01:21 PM	You know, we've seen the psionic/divine prestige, psionic/arcane prestige, divine/arcane prestige, arcane/arcane prestige, incarnum/arcane prestige, incarnum/divine prestige, binder/arcane prestige, binder/divine prestige, shadowcaster/arcane, truenamer/divine, truenamer/arcane, invocation/arcane, and invocation/divine. We haven't seen the psionic combination with anything much more than arcane and the mind's eye article for divine. Granted, I don't see psionics fitting much of those... However, I could see incarnum and binders possibly working out (one works to bind soul energy to themselves, the other forces pacts with "otherworldly beings"). I could definitely see this, but only if the class had an evil perspective (possibly some necrocarnate experimentation?). Anyway, that's a side topic, but it popped in my head. Check this out for an incarnum/psionic class. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a
AllisterH 07-12-07, 11:21 PM	5)The Samurai from Complete Warrior. 6) The Wu-Jen from Complete Arcane. 7) The Shugenja from Complete Divine. . Really, is there any NEED for these? Weren't all of these kits in 2E that were also said to have "players from Kara-tur use these kits"
EytanBernstein 07-13-07, 02:20 AM	I don't follow, the psychic theurge I saw in the article link was for a divine/psion blend (unless I'm misreading and you're saying that ardents and erudites would blend well with clerics and archivists). Good point bringing up the erudite alternate version of psion. I had not even considered it. It would especially fit well with archivists, as both are people seeking out knowledge by digging into various bits of lore (just as erudite/wizard/cerebremancer would fit well). You know, we've seen the psionic/divine prestige, psionic/arcane prestige, divine/arcane prestige, arcane/arcane prestige, incarnum/arcane prestige, incarnum/divine prestige, binder/arcane prestige, binder/divine prestige, shadowcaster/arcane, truenamer/divine, truenamer/arcane, invocation/arcane, and invocation/divine. We haven't seen the psionic combination with anything much more than arcane and the mind's eye article for divine. Granted, I don't see psionics fitting much of those... However, I could see incarnum and binders possibly working out (one works to bind soul energy to themselves, the other forces pacts with "otherworldly beings"). I could definitely see this, but only if the class had an evil perspective (possibly some necrocarnate experimentation?). Anyway, that's a side topic, but it popped in my head. It would be a psionic/divine combination. Some new mind's eye material allows erudites to learn arcane spells as powers. They don't count as spells, but the effect is much the same.
sleyvas 07-13-07, 10:17 AM	It's not difficult to create your own prestige classes, and with so much examples I think there aren't many ways to make them. The basic is the mystic theurge: Progression of arcane and divine every level, poor attack, only good will and the prerequisites are, effectively, to be an arcane spellcaster / divine spellcaster at least total level 5, with the appropiate knowledge skills as prerequisite. Usually you may also swap spellcasting prerequisites with psionics prerequisites, as they are the more similar 'magic'. Arcane spell failure does throw a little kinker into this that would have to be accomodated for. For instance, the psychic theurge is a class that's going to be able to run around in full plate, whereas a mystic theurge is still using bracers of armor or spending extra money to add twilight and feycraft to mithril armor (or using blended quartz or whatever it was in A&EG, for which the weight of full plate would be enormous so you'd best have some strength if you like walking).
Valgard 07-14-07, 09:17 AM	Arcane spell failure does throw a little kinker into this that would have to be accomodated for. For instance, the psychic theurge is a class that's going to be able to run around in full plate, whereas a mystic theurge is still using bracers of armor or spending extra money to add twilight and feycraft to mithril armor (or using blended quartz or whatever it was in A&EG, for which the weight of full plate would be enormous so you'd best have some strength if you like walking). Yeah that's true, but if you take the mystic theurge and substitute the arcane spellcasting prerequisites and class abilities for psionics, you got the psychic theurge (more or less). That does make matters such as spell failure to change, but the class mechanics is very similar.
Mad Mage 07-15-07, 11:26 AM	Well, after purchasing - and reading - Tome of Magic, the book does seem to give some examples of how to at least fit Truenaming Magic into Faerun, mostly the creatures from that chapter (including a sphinx somewhere in Faerun with a few Truenamer levels). All I can say about the class features of that book is "It's bound to happen."
Valgard 07-18-07, 06:46 AM	Good point on this one mr. Bernstein, as always... at this point, all praises seem to be given for free, as I'm enjoying this series too much. Anyway, what I really enjoyed of the article about the Binder is the adaptation of existing vestiges of the Tome of Magic source to Realmsian past great characters and entities. It makes the Tome of Magic book useful when playing but, at least for me (a Realms fan), I see more charismatic binding to Sammaster, Calim, or Amaunator rather than Acererak (althought this one is great in the world of Greyhawk), Agares, or Amon. Also, the new vestige is great. I don't know how it was conceived... I don't see direct relation with any Faerūnian events, althought is great for sure.
EytanBernstein 07-18-07, 12:45 PM	Good point on this one mr. Bernstein, as always... at this point, all praises seem to be given for free, as I'm enjoying this series too much. Anyway, what I really enjoyed of the article about the Binder is the adaptation of existing vestiges of the Tome of Magic source to Realmsian past great characters and entities. It makes the Tome of Magic book useful when playing but, at least for me (a Realms fan), I see more charismatic binding to Sammaster, Calim, or Amaunator rather than Acererak (althought this one is great in the world of Greyhawk), Agares, or Amon. Also, the new vestige is great. I don't know how it was conceived... I don't see direct relation with any Faerūnian events, althought is great for sure. The new vestige is related to an entity described in Dragons of Faerun.
Mad Mage 07-18-07, 02:01 PM	Great entry & all, Mr. Bernstein, however, I spotted one thing that contradicts previous lore. On the entry for Aym/Queen Helmma, didn't Dumathoin become patron of the Shield Dwarves? Races of Faerun (a 3.25 supplement) seems to mention this in great detail, including that and how Moradin and Berronar Truesilver are the most-worshipped deities amongst the Gold Dwarves.
EytanBernstein 07-18-07, 03:47 PM	Great entry & all, Mr. Bernstein, however, I spotted one thing that contradicts previous lore. On the entry for Aym/Queen Helmma, didn't Dumathoin become patron of the Shield Dwarves? Races of Faerun (a 3.25 supplement) seems to mention this in great detail, including that and how Moradin and Berronar Truesilver are the most-worshipped deities amongst the Gold Dwarves. You are indeed correct about the predominant deities of these subraces, but not every member of every race worships the predominant god. People may think of Lolth as the drow goddess, but the other drow gods are also worshipped. I think it's accurate to say that a signiicant number of shield dwarves also worship Moradin. Any given family might have a specific patron deity other than the favored god. Take a real world example. The vast majority of citizens in Poland are Roman Catholic, but there is a signficant minority (including major politicians) that are not. The same can be said for any races in the Realms as large the shield dwarves.
Valgard 07-19-07, 07:14 AM	The new vestige is related to an entity described in Dragons of Faerun.Yup! Now I remember, that pseudonatural dragon... it's curious to connect that dragon of the far realm with a vestige... but good one. Also, regarding social aspects of pact magic, are binders in Faerūn considered so blasphemous and heretic as they are portrayed in Tome of Magic? I don't see any reason why this should be different in the Realms, but considering the vast array of points of view within the deities, maybe there are some that view them well.
EytanBernstein 07-19-07, 01:37 PM	Yup! Now I remember, that pseudonatural dragon... it's curious to connect that dragon of the far realm with a vestige... but good one. Also, regarding social aspects of pact magic, are binders in Faerūn considered so blasphemous and heretic as they are portrayed in Tome of Magic? I don't see any reason why this should be different in the Realms, but considering the vast array of points of view within the deities, maybe there are some that view them well. I suspect that binders would face even more prejudice than more traditional magic users in many parts of the Realms. In areas where magicians are welcome or tolerated, they might or might not face problems, depending on who is in power. In areas where magic is tabboo or disliked (Amn, barbarian tribes, some dwarven populations), binders might be banished or executed. Of course, it varies in regards to location, faith, and other factors.
EytanBernstein 07-19-07, 06:34 PM	After a request from some posters, I'll clarify the intent of the summoning ability and the bolts of madness. The summoning ability wasn't worded clearly enough, so here is what I intended. The summoning ability functions all ways as if you are a sorcerer of your effective binder level casting a summon monster spell. Any creature you summon that is eligible (the significant majority) has the pseudonatural template (and yes, that means you can summon a pseudonatural celestial badger if you like). Just like a sorcerer, you must use a full round action to employ this ability. The duration is 1 round/level. You can only summon one creature at a time (so you can't summon 1d3 or 1d4+1 lower level creatures). The ability is a supernatural ability, not a spell or spell-like ability, so augment summoning and any other feat that affects summoning spells do not apply, though you might find uses for feats that affect supernatural abilities. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can summon additional creatures by waiting 5 rounds (each separate use of this ability has its own duration). Bolts of madness requires a standard action to use and is a supernatural ability. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Suin Bahhar 08-01-07, 09:35 AM	The latest installment is up... How obscure is truenameing? Guessing most churches will now a bit of the lore on the words of creation. The House of the Unnamed is a very small organisation. There aligned to the Selunite school in Algarond?
EytanBernstein 08-01-07, 03:29 PM	The latest installment is up... How obscure is truenameing? Guessing most churches will now a bit of the lore on the words of creation. The House of the Unnamed is a very small organisation. There aligned to the Selunite school in Algarond? It's not particularly common at all. There is a lot more dabbling going on than full fledged truenaming.
Mad Mage 08-01-07, 06:30 PM	Well, nice job overall, Mr. Bernstein. I was curious: What do you think is going to be more of a hectic or difficult book to modify into the Realms: Tome of Battle or Magic of Incarnum? :thinks: Granted, you just plowed through Tome of Magic, so I wonder if ANYTHING would be an issue. :cool:
EytanBernstein 08-02-07, 02:06 AM	Well, nice job overall, Mr. Bernstein. I was curious: What do you think is going to be more of a hectic or difficult book to modify into the Realms: Tome of Battle or Magic of Incarnum? :thinks: Granted, you just plowed through Tome of Magic, so I wonder if ANYTHING would be an issue. :cool: Those two were most certainly the most challenging. I'd say that Tome of Battle was slightly harder, but both took a lot of work.
Mad Mage 08-08-07, 01:30 AM	Well, Mr. Bernstein, I think the new article on Incarnum is pretty much beyond words. :w00t: In addition, it looks like you're already getting a "two-thumbs-up" Ebert & Roeper treatment in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13343646#post13343646). ;)
Valgard 08-08-07, 06:39 AM	Where can I find more info about 'Heavy Magic'? I've never heard anything of that before... And by the way, Mr. Bernstein, are you going to mention incarnum races as you mentioned psionic races in previous issues of these articles?
EytanBernstein 08-08-07, 01:35 PM	Where can I find more info about 'Heavy Magic'? I've never heard anything of that before... And by the way, Mr. Bernstein, are you going to mention incarnum races as you mentioned psionic races in previous issues of these articles? Thank you all for your positive feedback. I don't believe I've covered Incarnum races. It took a lot of space to tie Incarnum to the Realms, so there wasn't space for the races.
Mad Mage 08-08-07, 02:09 PM	Well, Mr. Bernstein, I may not be a recognized author & all, but here's my take on all of the races from Magic of Incarnum. - Rilkan & Skarn: A long-ago experiment (with both breeding and magic) amongst one of the mighty reptilian races, likely Yuan-ti, who also experimented with Incarnum. Often do their best to disguise their distinguishing features to pass as full-blooded humans. Most common regions of existence include the Lake of Steam, Tashalar, the Vilhon Reach, and the Western Heartlands. Granted, I've yet to read Serpent Kingdoms, but that's a start. In addition... - Duskling: Fey native to the House of Nature, where the wild nature of the plane holds a significant stream of Incarnum that only they've been able to tap. - Azurin: Humans that are rare cases where they are infused with Incarnum via tears in the Weave. Often, this happens with women who are exposed while they are pregnant, and give birth to Azurin children because of this. Most common causes for Incarnum infusion are the Fall of Netheril or the Time of Troubles. Can be found in almost any human region, and usually take regional feats from their host ethnicity. Overall, for some homebrew ideas, how's that sound, Mr. Bernstein?
EytanBernstein 08-08-07, 07:08 PM	Well, Mr. Bernstein, I may not be a recognized author & all, but here's my take on all of the races from Magic of Incarnum. - Rilkan & Skarn: A long-ago experiment (with both breeding and magic) amongst one of the mighty reptilian races, likely Yuan-ti, who also experimented with Incarnum. Often do their best to disguise their distinguishing features to pass as full-blooded humans. Most common regions of existence include the Lake of Steam, Tashalar, the Vilhon Reach, and the Western Heartlands. Granted, I've yet to read Serpent Kingdoms, but that's a start. In addition... - Duskling: Fey native to the House of Nature, where the wild nature of the plane holds a significant stream of Incarnum that only they've been able to tap. - Azurin: Humans that are rare cases where they are infused with Incarnum via tears in the Weave. Often, this happens with women who are exposed while they are pregnant, and give birth to Azurin children because of this. Most common causes for Incarnum infusion are the Fall of Netheril or the Time of Troubles. Can be found in almost any human region, and usually take regional feats from their host ethnicity. Overall, for some homebrew ideas, how's that sound, Mr. Bernstein? Those sound plausible enough. I didn't really have room to cover the races, but that doesn't mean they could be used in the Realms.
Mad Mage 08-08-07, 08:17 PM	Those sound plausible enough. I didn't really have room to cover the races, but that doesn't mean they could be used in the Realms. Yeah, just wanted to see what you thought above all else. I'll probably post it in a new thread of my own for other people's use. :lightbulb Edit: Okay, thread is made, so hopefully whoever wants to use it can utilize it, mostly without swimming through - or clogging - this thread.
Razz 08-28-07, 11:08 PM	I was hoping to see some of the psionic races get written. For awhile I've had problems trying to place half-giants, dromites, xephs, and maenads in the Realms. I've developed a good background for the maenads, the dromites I had come from the Hordelands, in the regions where the empire of Imaskar once reigned, and the xephs I placed in the Utter East. Still no clue how to work the half-giants in, really. Especially since it's more of a core Dark Sun race.
Valgard 09-05-07, 07:15 AM	Finally, the next Class Chronicles archive. Many days have passed and I think that one more and I'd begin to reply everywhere what's going on...
Suin Bahhar 09-05-07, 08:32 AM	Eytan, great work as always. Great finesse is shown in your way of not overpowering incarnum in the realms by making it weave dependant. Props! I am thinking of converting totemic magic from chapter 4 of Elves of Evermeet to 3.5 and found it similar to incarnums flavor. How can I simply adapt the crafting rules to a balanced set of incarnumlike totems? The abilities of incarnum seem more powerfull than the totems represented in EoE. Could a feat chain for rangers and druids allowing some soulmelds be too powerfull or should those remain strictly for the incarnum classes? I especially liked the way how Rashemi totemists use soulmelds, with the spirits of Rashemen self as the source. Am I correct they use the raw weave to collect, store and shape the spirit-energy? What does this look like? Different from the normal blue fire? I presume it does not work in a dead magic zone.
MerrikCale 09-05-07, 09:25 AM	Yahoo! Its finally up. Nice job on it yet again
EytanBernstein 09-05-07, 04:49 PM	Eytan, great work as always. Great finesse is shown in your way of not overpowering incarnum in the realms by making it weave dependant. Props! I am thinking of converting totemic magic from chapter 4 of Elves of Evermeet to 3.5 and found it similar to incarnums flavor. How can I simply adapt the crafting rules to a balanced set of incarnumlike totems? The abilities of incarnum seem more powerfull than the totems represented in EoE. Could a feat chain for rangers and druids allowing some soulmelds be too powerfull or should those remain strictly for the incarnum classes? I especially liked the way how Rashemi totemists use soulmelds, with the spirits of Rashemen self as the source. Am I correct they use the raw weave to collect, store and shape the spirit-energy? What does this look like? Different from the normal blue fire? I presume it does not work in a dead magic zone. Very interesting questions. Let me think about it. Have a lot going on, but I'll get back to it soon.
EytanBernstein 09-05-07, 04:50 PM	Yahoo! Its finally up. Nice job on it yet again Thanks. I'm glad they got it up :) It's been really busy over there, so I commend them for already having things up and running.
MerrikCale 09-05-07, 09:53 PM	Thanks. I'm glad they got it up :) It's been really busy over there, so I commend them for already having things up and running. what are we looking at? Three more?
EytanBernstein 09-06-07, 03:51 PM	what are we looking at? Three more? Four, I believe, though I'm not 100% positive. It just depends on how the articles get split.
MerrikCale 09-06-07, 08:22 PM	Four, I believe, though I'm not 100% positive. It just depends on how the articles get split. I've been waiting for the ToB article for weeks now. I'm giddy with anticipation. Not for nothing, but I find that this set of articles are perhaps the most useful of any FR peices on the website
EytanBernstein 09-07-07, 02:43 AM	I've been waiting for the ToB article for weeks now. I'm giddy with anticipation. Not for nothing, but I find that this set of articles are perhaps the most useful of any FR peices on the website I'm glad to hear you're finding them useful. The Tome of Battle entry(ies) should be out in the near future.
Valgard 09-07-07, 06:06 AM	Just one simple question regarding Incarnum. I think that in Magic of Incarnum it is revealed that you use your soul's power to channel Incarnum... that's why undead meldshapers need a specific feat to use it properly. What about the kir-lanans? They have no soul but they have indeed a Con score, so how can they handle it? Are they banned from using Incarnum as they are banned from using divine spells? Can they meldshape but do they need that feat that undead need to channel Incarnum? It's not an easy issue... maybe I find more useful opinions rather than official answers.
EytanBernstein 09-07-07, 04:39 PM	Just one simple question regarding Incarnum. I think that in Magic of Incarnum it is revealed that you use your soul's power to channel Incarnum... that's why undead meldshapers need a specific feat to use it properly. What about the kir-lanans? They have no soul but they have indeed a Con score, so how can they handle it? Are they banned from using Incarnum as they are banned from using divine spells? Can they meldshape but do they need that feat that undead need to channel Incarnum? It's not an easy issue... maybe I find more useful opinions rather than official answers. I'd really have to think about it. My instinct is that there is no reason for them to use it. Somewhat like undead druids, halfling necromancers, and aboleth bards, it's probably something mechanically possible, but with questionable flavor.
GothicDan 09-07-07, 10:06 PM	Heh. I'm pretty sure there's been a few undead druids who have cropped up over the sources. Specifically, Druids had a surprising number among the Dustmen. And then, of course, there's the Blighters. They practically scream Undead, and Druids are built into the PrC. Personally, the idea of Kir-Lanan using incarnum by *stealing it* from others seems a neat idea, to me (even if I'm not a fan of incarnum in general).
MerrikCale 09-07-07, 11:01 PM	Heh. I'm pretty sure there's been a few undead druids who have cropped up over the sources. Whats that druid lich's name?
Mad Mage 09-08-07, 02:08 AM	Whats that druid lich's name? Lossarwyn the Ice Lich. Resides in the Dire Wood, according to Champions of Ruin.
MerrikCale 09-08-07, 08:55 AM	Lossarwyn the Ice Lich. Resides in the Dire Wood, according to Champions of Ruin. thank you. I was too lazy to dig that book out
EytanBernstein 09-08-07, 02:53 PM	I'm not saying that such things don't exist. If you really want Kir-lanan to use incarnum, I certainly would have no objections. The same goes for druid liches. My point is that I'd sooner try to develop the more likely candidates for a given mechanic.
18DELTA 09-12-07, 01:05 AM	I'm glad to hear you're finding them useful. The Tome of Battle entry(ies) should be out in the near future. The Tome of Battle entries are out on the MAIN D&D PAGE NOT THE FR PAGE. Good stuff Eytan, good stuff:D
EytanBernstein 09-12-07, 02:46 AM	The Tome of Battle entries are out on the MAIN D&D PAGE NOT THE FR PAGE. Good stuff Eytan, good stuff:D Thanks! I'll point out one correction that one of the readers noted. Concerning "Blademaster Borrobar Starlynskor (LG male Tethyrian warblade 7/master of nine 10)" - he can't have 10 levels in that PrC because it is only a 5-level PrC. Thus, he should read "Blademaster Borrobar Starlynskor (LG male Tethyrian warblade 12/master of nine 5)"
Valgard 09-12-07, 12:45 PM	Tremendous article... this one for the Sublime Way. The most I like is that is very complete. You've centered in every style, every class, and even every PrC in that book. More than a 'Class Chronicles' it should have been named a 'Sourcebook Chronicles'. I think we don't have any more articles left. Do we? :weep:
MerrikCale 09-12-07, 01:11 PM	Tremendous article... this one for the Sublime Way. The most I like is that is very complete. You've centered in every style, every class, and even every PrC in that book. More than a 'Class Chronicles' it should have been named a 'Sourcebook Chronicles'. I think we don't have any more articles left. Do we? :weep: I know he hasn't done the spirit shaman yet
EytanBernstein 09-12-07, 04:30 PM	I know he hasn't done the spirit shaman yet We have one more left - a nice chunk detailing samurai, shugenja, wu jen, shamans, sohei, and spirit shamans. Ideally, I should have covered ninjas here and spirit shamans earlier, but it's all good :)
Mad Mage 09-12-07, 09:33 PM	Bravo once again, Mr. Bernstein. Honestly, as much as it was disclaimed that it would be hard to fit ToB into the Realms, it seems like it fits now! ;) I gotta say, I'm impressed by the connection you made with deities and martial adepts, especialy Anhur, Tempus, Torm, and the Red Knight. :D What'cha all say folks! I say, free cheers for a newer author with some real spunk! :pint:
SmartPaladin 09-13-07, 01:37 AM	We have one more left - a nice chunk detailing samurai, shugenja, wu jen, shamans, sohei, and spirit shamans. Ideally, I should have covered ninjas here and spirit shamans earlier, but it's all good :) I don't mind you covering Ninjas when you did. I had a lot of fun with that. Although trying to figure out why my Half-Drow Ninja's father fled from Thesk all the way to Dambrath is still kinda hard to pin down... Best I can come up with is that he failed in a task, badly. So bad, that not just did he fail, but he helped whoever it was he was to kill flee the city with immediate family in tow. And thus fled as well, all the way to someplace that he felt his clan wouldn't look for him. Because what sane and free human would flee to Dambrath? :P
MerrikCale 09-13-07, 08:09 AM	We have one more left - a nice chunk detailing samurai, shugenja, wu jen, shamans, sohei, and spirit shamans. Ideally, I should have covered ninjas here and spirit shamans earlier, but it's all good :) I can only assume that this article deals with classes that have migrated from other parts of the Toril.
EytanBernstein 09-13-07, 02:15 PM	I can only assume that this article deals with classes that have migrated from other parts of the Toril. That is the significant majority of what's covered.
EytanBernstein 09-13-07, 02:17 PM	Bravo once again, Mr. Bernstein. Honestly, as much as it was disclaimed that it would be hard to fit ToB into the Realms, it seems like it fits now! ;) I gotta say, I'm impressed by the connection you made with deities and martial adepts, especialy Anhur, Tempus, Torm, and the Red Knight. :D What'cha all say folks! I say, free cheers for a newer author with some real spunk! :pint: Glad your'e enjoying it!
MerrikCale 09-13-07, 03:21 PM	That is the significant majority of what's covered. I'm still guessing that spirit shamans originate from Osse
Ianten_Silverblade 09-14-07, 07:11 PM	Despite the limitations, I enjoy playing a Aasimar Knight/Paladin! The benefits outweigh the codes of conduct one would be required to adhere to when multi classing in both of those classes in my opinion. Ironically I kick evil's ass often! ^_^
Mula 09-15-07, 03:46 PM	I'm still guessing that spirit shamans originate from OsseI always thought spirit shamans were a perfect fit for the Wychlaran.
MerrikCale 09-15-07, 11:21 PM	I always thought spirit shamans were a perfect fit for the Wychlaran. Perhaps, but based on thier grouping with Kara-Tur classes, I suspect the Shaman is from "off-Faerun". I always got the vibe that it would be a good choice for a main religion of another continent such as Osse or Maztica
GothicDan 09-15-07, 11:54 PM	Boo. Bad fit, Merrik. The Wychlaran have always been described as tied to the spirits of the lands of Aglaron, yes, but Arcane. I found it even stupid that they made them a double-class PrC.
BadCatMan 09-15-07, 11:57 PM	Just because these articles have been so great, I'd like to see a similar treatment just on the PHB classes and their variants from Unearthed Arcana. Okay, maybe its too much and not really worth it, but it would be nice. :)
MerrikCale 09-16-07, 09:01 AM	Boo. Bad fit, Merrik. The Wychlaran have always been described as tied to the spirits of the lands of Aglaron, yes, but Arcane. I found it even stupid that they made them a double-class PrC. Don't boo me, I didn't say it. Thats why the Osse idea fits better
GothicDan 09-16-07, 06:28 PM	Oops. Boo, Mula. For real. (I like Merrik much more, even when we disagree.)
Dark Wizard 09-16-07, 06:54 PM	[bitter rant]The classes salvaged from the OA are a lost cause. Without some eastern context from support in other books they are greatly marginalized to the point of being wastes of space in the Complete books. [/bitter rant] Truthfully I would have liked to see more interesting classes along the lines of the Hexblade, Warlock, Scout, or even the Favored Soul. I've been trying to rework the Shaman/Spirit Shaman/Shugenja (all one class) in the context of my Kara-tur into a more versatile and distinct class from just another spontaneous cleric with no class abilities besides spells. I've also been trying to rework the Wu Jen into something of a sorcerer and have wizardly casting a component of a "mage scholar" class to represent the less socially peculiar court wizards. It's just a big mess, I'm not sure what to make of Kara-Tur's magic system. Half-hoping Abeir comes and gives us a clean slate.
MerrikCale 09-16-07, 09:38 PM	[bitter rant]The classes salvaged from the OA are a lost cause. Without some eastern context from support in other books they are greatly marginalized to the point of being wastes of space in the Complete books. [/bitter rant] Truthfully I would have liked to see more interesting classes along the lines of the Hexblade, Warlock, Scout, or even the Favored Soul. I've been trying to rework the Shaman/Spirit Shaman/Shugenja (all one class) in the context of my Kara-tur into a more versatile and distinct class from just another spontaneous cleric with no class abilities besides spells. I've also been trying to rework the Wu Jen into something of a sorcerer and have wizardly casting a component of a "mage scholar" class to represent the less socially peculiar court wizards. It's just a big mess, I'm not sure what to make of Kara-Tur's magic system. Half-hoping Abeir comes and gives us a clean slate. I agree with you for the most part (though I dislike the Hexblade). I do like many of other classes like the scout, warlock, favored soul, swashbuckler, and yes the spirit shaman. I do not feel the spirit shaman is a Kara-Tur class myself, but can be used in bringing a new religion (my choice is Osse) to the Faerun
MerrikCale 09-16-07, 09:39 PM	(I like Merrik much more, even when we disagree.) back at ya
Mula 09-17-07, 12:20 AM	First of all, spirit shaman from Complete Divine and shaman from Oriental Adventures are different classes. Even their names are different, see? Second, divine, arcane - big deal. The Wychlaran are both (since 3E at least), and look at the abilities spirit shamans get. Spirit guide, chastise spirits, detect spirits, blessing of the spirits... they scream spirits! And that's exactly what the Rashemaar witches are! A perfect fit. ALSO, Rashemen has always been a bit of a borderland between the western lands of Faerūn and the eastern Kara-Tur and the Hordelands. They have this interesting blending of traditions vibe going on, to a degree.
Dark Wizard 09-18-07, 12:54 AM	The time is perfect, the latest article is up dealing with Eastern Classes: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070918
MerrikCale 09-18-07, 09:02 PM	And the spirit shamans have that Osse tie-in. Me and Eytan are on the same wavelength
BadCatMan 09-18-07, 09:17 PM	Thank you all those great articles Mr Bernstein! And now I'm reminded on the Bushido, a mercenary company of Samurai last seening kicking around Chessenta in Gold & Glory. As an Australian, something both impresses and deeply bothers me about the Osse link, though that's pretty standard for us. :rolleyes:
SmartPaladin 09-18-07, 09:55 PM	As an Australian, something both impresses and deeply bothers me about the Osse link, though that's pretty standard for us. :rolleyes: Could be worse, give me a minute and I might be able to tell you how. :P
EytanBernstein 09-19-07, 03:21 AM	Thank you all those great articles Mr Bernstein! And now I'm reminded on the Bushido, a mercenary company of Samurai last seening kicking around Chessenta in Gold & Glory. As an Australian, something both impresses and deeply bothers me about the Osse link, though that's pretty standard for us. :rolleyes: I tried to use some of the other regions of the world to give origins to the exotic classes. The actual description of Osse mainly comes from "Lady of Poison" by Bruce Cordell.
Valgard 09-19-07, 03:23 PM	Well, Mr. Eytan Bernstein, now that it's finished, I'd like to congratulate and thank you for all the complete series of Class Chronicles. It's the best series published in the website. "It's been an honour, comrade!" :king: :clap:
EytanBernstein 09-19-07, 09:24 PM	Well, Mr. Eytan Bernstein, now that it's finished, I'd like to congratulate and thank you for all the complete series of Class Chronicles. It's the best series published in the website. "It's been an honour, comrade!" :king: :clap: Thanks, Valgard. It was a nice run. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Realms develops in 4e.
BadCatMan 09-19-07, 10:13 PM	I tried to use some of the other regions of the world to give origins to the exotic classes. The actual description of Osse mainly comes from "Lady of Poison" by Bruce Cordell. I know. We're just touchy about imitations. You wouldn't believe the uproar over the Simpsons visit to Australia. :rolleyes: The Aboriginal beliefs are still a real thing to them. We have to plan our public works around the Wagyl Rainbow Serpent, and the Wandjina Man keeps showing up in graffiti. So I fear the whole Tabotan Dalai Lama thing will happen all over again. Still, it's nice for this kind of culture to get a look-in, and if Osse includes Australian-style Rangers and drop-bears, then it'll be a great campaign setting. :D
EytanBernstein 09-19-07, 11:57 PM	I know. We're just touchy about imitations. You wouldn't believe the uproar over the Simpsons visit to Australia. :rolleyes: The Aboriginal beliefs are still a real thing to them. We have to plan our public works around the Wagyl Rainbow Serpent, and the Wandjina Man keeps showing up in graffiti. So I fear the whole Tabotan Dalai Lama thing will happen all over again. Still, it's nice for this kind of culture to get a look-in, and if Osse includes Australian-style Rangers and drop-bears, then it'll be a great campaign setting. :D I don't honestly know a whole lot more about Osse than you guys do. I suggest asking Bruce Cordell questions over at the Candlekeep forums.
msatran 09-20-07, 01:55 AM	Eytan, after all the wonderful things you've done, how can you possibly consider this "Spellplague" and this Helm/Tyr/Tymora nonsense "development?" Did Tymora smoke crack until the heavens lit? The fickle goddess of luck agreeing to an ARRANGED MARRIAGE? Where's the FUN or Risk or Skill in that? I hate to call one of my favorite Realms Designers on the carpet, but these things were absolutely NUTS. This isn't even "I sense the hand of Cyric." This is "I sense the hand of handwave."
EytanBernstein 09-20-07, 03:53 PM	Eytan, after all the wonderful things you've done, how can you possibly consider this "Spellplague" and this Helm/Tyr/Tymora nonsense "development?" Did Tymora smoke crack until the heavens lit? The fickle goddess of luck agreeing to an ARRANGED MARRIAGE? Where's the FUN or Risk or Skill in that? I hate to call one of my favorite Realms Designers on the carpet, but these things were absolutely NUTS. This isn't even "I sense the hand of Cyric." This is "I sense the hand of handwave." I'm not in any way involved in what's being planned for the 4e FRCS, so I can't say anything about it either way. I have high hopes that those involved with handle things with great respect for the source material. Beyond that, I don't know much more than you.