Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Shaman 09-13-07, 07:06 PM	I suppose most of you have noticed that the new class chronicles for the Realms are up here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911) . About time, right? Well, it could be just me, but maybe not. I'm not opposed to ToB, but it looked a bit... rushed, perhaps. It seems that entire regions of the Realms have seen practically no martial adepts, while others (Luiren, for crying out loud, Luiren!) have quite a few. I realize that a lot of people have been calling for it, and that introducing something as notable as ToB in the realms is no simple manner, but I don't think it was done quite well and I'm not sure that I could argue for this article being the definitive resource for ToB in the Realms in my games. What do you think?
MerrikCale 09-13-07, 08:25 PM	well, I liked it. You said it yourself, putting ToB into the Realms is a virtually impossible task. I though the classes and, in particular, the PrCs were well done
Mad Mage 09-13-07, 10:57 PM	Well, I think Luiren was featured to take some emphasis off elves and humans and try to put a little more on other humanoids, namely halflings. Though I admit I am a huge fan of dwarves, I do believe halflings deserve the credit they were given in that article. :cool: In addition, I noticed more Gold Dwarf flavor than Shield Dwarf in that article. Funny, though, I expected the Bloodstorm Blade PrC to have some connection to Talos, if anything, given how destructive natural forces can be symbolized in ravenous battlefield slaughter. :embarrass Overall, a great article, IMHO.
Kirael 09-14-07, 03:32 AM	the PrCs were well done yeah, uh, most were. I'm kinda surprised about the fluff given for the Jade Phoenix Mage, though... Jade Phoenix Mage: In Kara-Tur, jade phoenix mages are relatively common Relatively common ? The point of that class is that they are a fixed and limited number of ever-reincarnating souls containing a great evil... Several of the class abilities revolve around that specific fluff point. ToB says there are only 13 of them, and they become relatively common now ? What's the point in being able to know where the nearest JPM is if they are "relatively common" ? And no word about Dendar, which is the "great evil" suggested for a FR adaptation in ToB ? The Shou brought the tradition with them in travels to the West. Tradition ? JPM are born, not made. They are re-incarnated souls of former JPM, again and again. They're supposed to losely monitor "new" JPM, nothing more... All in all, i am really annoyed by this "adaptation" of the JPM. It was kinda my favorite PrC from ToB, not because of mechanics but because of the fluff, and that fluff was destroyed completly by this article. But well, i'll just ignore it and move on...
Zanan 09-14-07, 04:39 AM	People should take this Class Chronicle entry with the pinch of salt Eytan put ahead of it. The book introduces variant rules galore and is, as he said, not easily adaptable to the Realms. For example, I haven't seen anything in those Crusaders which would remind me of the AD&D ones, i.e. a mix of a paladin and a cleric - here it is some sort of specialized fighter with a bit of religious flair. The Complete Divine's Templar PrC was fine enough for an FR crusader, IMHO.
Borris 09-14-07, 04:45 AM	I rather liked the article, personaly. Unlike the one about Incarnum, that for some reason changed the source of power from souls to the weave (as if we need yet another form of magic using the weave), this one staid pretty much true to the original book. Aside from the bit about Jade Pheonix Mages beyond common anywhere, I haven't noticed any discrepancies with the Book of Nine Swords (though I've only browsed through it once). The fact that most regions of the Realms have almost no martial adepts while others have plenty is a good thing, in my opinion. I never like it when something can be found in equal numbers no matter where you go on the continent. It doesn't make sense in a world where each region is supposed to have a unique flavor. The base classes from the PHB should be more common in some places than others (and they are). The contrast should be even greater for minor, rarer classes. The only thing that annoys me a little is the three Sister sword temples in Tantras, Raven's Bluff and Procampur. It makes for a very high concentration of martial adepts in such a close space (smaller than Luiren even), and steals some of the flavor from the Vast, that I view more as a more of a group of unique city-states rather than a unified country. Putting almost identical martial art schools in half of the Vast's cities kinda robs each of them of its unique character.
The_Shaman 09-14-07, 06:52 AM	I thought that Mo9 NPC was weird. Wasn't Mo9 a 5-level PrC, anyway, and is a lvl 7 warblade even able to take it (lost my e-books recently, sorry)
Borris 09-14-07, 08:33 AM	Master of Nine is a 5-level prestige classe that requires 10 ranks in 4 of different key discipline skills (done with relative ease by level 7), 5 feats (a human warblade or multiclass fighter can get get this by level 6), and one known maneuver from at least 6 discipline (warblade 5 or swordsage 1, earlier with feats). I see no way to get all the prerequisite feats by level 7 as a swordsage, unless you play something like a multiclass swordsage/fighter or a human swordsage/warblade. But to Eytan's defence, the sample master of nine given in the Tome of Battle is also a swordsage 7/master of nine 3. Though it seems obvious when you look at his stat block that he took one of those prerequisites as his 9th-level feat. If you want to stay as close as possible to the Class Chrononicles' article, I'd change Borrobar Starlynskor to a Swordsage 12/Master of Nine 5.
The Ubbergeek 09-14-07, 12:21 PM	well, I liked it. You said it yourself, putting ToB into the Realms is a virtually impossible task. I though the classes and, in particular, the PrCs were well done Nah.... If you can find a good fluff reason, and modify stuff if needed, it is very possible.
EytanBernstein 09-14-07, 04:30 PM	Master of Nine is a 5-level prestige classe that requires 10 ranks in 4 of different key discipline skills (done with relative ease by level 7), 5 feats (a human warblade or multiclass fighter can get get this by level 6), and one known maneuver from at least 6 discipline (warblade 5 or swordsage 1, earlier with feats). I see no way to get all the prerequisite feats by level 7 as a swordsage, unless you play something like a multiclass swordsage/fighter or a human swordsage/warblade. But to Eytan's defence, the sample master of nine given in the Tome of Battle is also a swordsage 7/master of nine 3. Though it seems obvious when you look at his stat block that he took one of those prerequisites as his 9th-level feat. If you want to stay as close as possible to the Class Chrononicles' article, I'd change Borrobar Starlynskor to a Swordsage 12/Master of Nine 5. Indeed. I posted the update to the Master of Nine NPC on a few of the boards.
MerrikCale 09-14-07, 07:48 PM	Nah.... If you can find a good fluff reason, and modify stuff if needed, it is very possible. I concede that point. The one thing I'll say is with this the fluff would be difficult to fit into the Realms. At least more so than other classes
18DELTA 09-14-07, 11:13 PM	I concede that point. The one thing I'll say is with this the fluff would be difficult to fit into the Realms. At least more so than other classes Whats left of the REALMS. Now we have back story for 4th edition. Considering that there will be different power sources for characters.;)
MerrikCale 09-15-07, 08:54 AM	Whats left of the REALMS. Now we have back story for 4th edition. Considering that there will be different power sources for characters.;) for all I know, conversion of the fluff might be simpler with 4e
Suin Bahhar 09-17-07, 05:12 PM	I liked how Eytan handled the Jade Phoenix Mages myself. I always considered the fluff for the Phoenix mage in ToB to be too much tied to Greyhawk to be used in any other setting. Just making it a trained style of magic-using relieves the whole (good) 'there can be only one' story and frees the class for more widespread use. Makes better sense if I want a cabal of fiery martial adepts tormenting my PCs. I'd be tempted to limit jade phoenix mages to 8 levels though as I dont like the capstone ablilty (nova and free resurrection).
sleyvas 09-26-07, 04:12 PM	yeah, uh, most were. I'm kinda surprised about the fluff given for the Jade Phoenix Mage, though... Relatively common ? The point of that class is that they are a fixed and limited number of ever-reincarnating souls containing a great evil... Several of the class abilities revolve around that specific fluff point. Yeah, I thought this was a little weird too. However, at the same time, most of the abilities of the class should be trainable so that others could learn to duplicate the abilities. A little more adaptation could be done though to make it somewhat similar to the original. For instance, rather than it being reincarnated individuals... perhaps they establish a link to their ancestor spirits. Given that the religions of both the Far East and Raumathari cultures had links to spirits (the Telthors of Rashemen, which are sometimes formed from living beings). Perhaps the original Jade Phoenix mages were a part of Imaskar (even if it was a rebel group), and they imprisoned Dendar the Night Serpent by sacrificing their spirit to vigilance over Dendar. Over time, their spirit weakens and must be replaced by a new spirit, and thus the Jade Phoenix mages of present day continue that which their ancestors completed long ago. Another take might be that they sacrifice themselve to Dendar's hunger and thus keep him asleep. Personally, I like & dislike this kind of take on the class. Sure, it makes your character less special, but it makes it more believable if you wanted to use a strike force of Jade Phoenix mages who run a school of magic. That and there really needed to be some kind of ToB class that actually combined blade magic with real magic, and it didn't need to be something that only SOME could do. It should be trainable.
sleyvas 09-26-07, 04:21 PM	For example, I haven't seen anything in those Crusaders which would remind me of the AD&D ones, i.e. a mix of a paladin and a cleric - here it is some sort of specialized fighter with a bit of religious flair. The Complete Divine's Templar PrC was fine enough for an FR crusader, IMHO. I can see the Red Knight's followers possibly embracing crusaders. The whole idea that she grants you powers, but they're random and you have to figure out which to use and how for best effect on the fly. Very tactically minded where you have to adapt to the ever changing nature of warfare. For that matter, it would also fit for Tymoran temple guards.
1 ton ghost 09-29-07, 02:50 PM	there's alot of ways you can handle it should you elect to use Base Rule text in any campaign setting. -it was always there, and adjust accodingly. -new to said realm and picking up steam -ommit completely we don't normally employ alot of ToB in game, but i want my players to have the option. i don't like to restrict personal freedom so a great deal of negotiation takes place between RP, pizza, beer, and dice. that is, we allow warforged to a small degree, but i have never used rune magic. crusaders would mesh well. easilly explained. any faith really, particularly militant ones and they all have that "out" at some point or another. any War domain should probably have a monastery devoted to crusaders. Bane, Red Knight, Tempus, Corellon, Lolth, etc. endless possibilities swordsages probably best explained by discrete hermitages or the old cop out of "old wise master" etc. flows nicely w/ kara-turan elements. ShadowHand could be cannibalized lore from ShadowMasters in Thesk, Shadovar improvisations, Mask's divine intervention, a fringe Sharran cult discover, etc. you could also handle it monastically ala Batman Returns; train, pure and simple, no asethetic/religious overtones. warblades are the most open-ended i guess. any gloryhound will due. probably best to just have learned old master, etc. treat like a rarified prideful Ftr's rise to power the schools themselves you can treat, rename, whatever to fit most FR styles. no one should be static. i mean, the Desert Fire one could have jihadist-like adherants in Calimsham if that's not too unPC or improvisational Bedine after Anauroch appeared. Hobgoblin servants of the blue dragons in the Nether Mountains might retain their monasteries for Iron Heart, etc. Tiger Claw could be an innovation from any savage culture; Rashemi berzerkers, wild elves in the Chondalwood, derro, etc.