Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Steve 05-10-07, 08:00 PM	Ok here goes..... I'm trying to figure this small but infuriating subject......Tis is on the subject of alignment (as the title shows) What if there is someone doing things that other people might condemn him for but he honestly believes he is doing good? LEt's say a ranger who honestly believes that dwarves are evil (or lost) and tries his best(even by force) to bring them out into the open, with a love for the woods? Or a cleric who believes that halflings are generally evil assassins and theives that simply put on an innocent mask and goes out of her way to destroy as many halflings as possible? Or let's say a generally good person has some evil deity's messenger whispering half-truths and lies into his ears, eventually having this person see what he never saw before and he goes out of his way to right the wrongs pointed out by the evil diety (Possibly being convinced that a certain group of priests are hypocrites and need to die swiftly before they commit any more wrongs and suffer in the abyss or the hells) Man....I could go on and on with this.....So here's my question, would these characters be considered as evil? Would they be good? Yes, I realise I'm asking a lot of questions today.....
Fencerboy 05-11-07, 12:13 PM	Alignment is soooo relative and fickle. Unfortinately it is too important to the game to easily scrap it, and a good fix takes alot of work and conversion. I can't really answer your questions. Really, it is impossible to answer them. Damn alignment... Works fine until someone gets wise...:shifty:
Agudo Archmage 05-11-07, 12:36 PM	One mistake, is just a mistake and does not change your over all alignment But to continue down one path or the other, does change your alignment Sure you can be a friendly person and even nice But evil fathers are nice to their children; this does not make them good at heart Just because you believe it’s good to kill babies, in the name of your false god, does not mean you’re innocent of the deed Yes you may feel happy about doing the violent deed, yet your personality will reflect such volatile behavior.. aka the taint of evil It’s also called blind faith/obeying orders from a superior Soldiers are still guilty for atrocities, they commit in the name of their commander
Lord_Steve 05-11-07, 08:29 PM	One mistake, is just a mistake and does not change your over all alignment But to continue down one path or the other, does change your alignment Sure you can be a friendly person and even nice But evil fathers are nice to their children; this does not make them good at heart Just because you believe it’s good to kill babies, in the name of your false god, does not mean you’re innocent of the deed Yes you may feel happy about doing the violent deed, yet your personality will reflect such volatile behavior.. aka the taint of evil It’s also called blind faith/obeying orders from a superior Soldiers are still guilty for atrocities, they commit in the name of their commander Yes, yes, Good point here.....
Lord_Steve 05-11-07, 08:30 PM	Damn alignment... Works fine until someone gets wise...:shifty: Awwwww.....Me be sorry :D
BrennonGoldeye 05-11-07, 10:49 PM	is is on the subject of alignment (as the title shows) What if there is someone doing things that other people might condemn him for but he honestly believes he is doing good? LEt's say a ranger who honestly believes that dwarves are evil (or lost) and tries his best(even by force) to bring them out into the open, with a love for the woods? See, not enjoying the woods isn't evil. It might be dumb, but not evil. Believing something is good doesn't make it good. "Good" in and of itself is a relative term. It might be "good" for the honeybees if all the humans dropped dead tomorrow. Wouldn't be good for FedEx. Eye of the beholder. Not to belittle the thread, just to give a preview of the end. This is why Chaos is better than Law. Nonterminating Nonrepeating.:w00t: Soldiers are still guilty for atrocities, they commit in the name of their commander See, follow Law(Good or Evil) and your screwed. Of course that whole civilization thing is nice. Unless your a hippie. Lets just dump war alltogether. That and citizenship. Kum ba Ya. Eldath come soon.;) Damn alignment... Works fine until someone gets wise... Hmm, show me a wiseman whose stumped.:P
Straploknight 05-13-07, 08:37 PM	Yes, moral relativism, good and evil are not absolutes since your culture defines good and evil, however since the game is based on western values or rather current western values, then that is what defines, good and evil; law, neutrality, and chaos.
The Ubbergeek 05-13-07, 11:35 PM	Yes, moral relativism, good and evil are not absolutes since your culture defines good and evil, however since the game is based on western values or rather current western values, then that is what defines, good and evil; law, neutrality, and chaos. Moral relativism is flawed. Some evils are universarl. In D&D, evil and good, chaos and order, ARE forces. They ARE there, tangible.
Straploknight 05-14-07, 01:20 AM	Moral relativism is flawed. Some evils are universarl. In D&D, evil and good, chaos and order, ARE forces. They ARE there, tangible. Didn't say it was perfect, just a fact of life.
DojiHoturi 05-14-07, 01:40 AM	Actually, I would argue that there are NO universal evils. Point of View is everything. Genocide can even be justified from the right point of view, and it would be considered for the greater good... I hate alignment systems in general. I fortunately have a GM who does not get too wrapped around the axle if you are not always within your alignment. If I had to use an alignment system as a GM, I would be tempted to use the one by Palladium, but that has its flaws as well. There are too many gray areas in real life (and fantasy life) to allow for to have one alignment cover any individuals outlook on life. For example, every alignment 'test' I have taken on the internet (and I have taken three of them) has put me as Lawful Good, but I considered myself more Chaotic Good (or perhaps Neutral Good or even Chaotic Neutral with good tendancies). That is because apparently many folks do not believe that Chaotic people would have a sense of responsibility. I would argue that individual responsiblity is the key point in any Chaotic alignment, because everything they do is for themselves and therefore they are responsible for their actions. They just do not want to have people telling them how to live. If they are not hurting anyone, leave them alone. It does not mean that they do not understand that there are times to stand up and do things for the group. But the main reason they do things for the group is because they happen to be in the group that is having its way of life threatened. The virtue of selfishness, as it were. Good and Evil is left to whoever writes the history books telling us that So-and-So is evil and that if it wasn't for the other So-and-So, who is all that is benign and good and wonderful, then the world would have been plunged into darkness. I will get off my soap box now. 2 pennies (well maybe a nickel), Doji
Tyberian 05-14-07, 07:18 PM	Going back to the original question, I would say that your characters could be good but delusional. Often, if the insanity is strong enough, one can make the crazy one true neutral or not depending on how you wished to run your campaign. Your Don Quixote could still be a Lawful Good Paladin if you choose him to be or you could have his delusion so great that his alignment changes. D&D has absolute good and evil as well as absolute chaos and law. Anything else is neutrality.
Ramenth 05-16-07, 05:47 PM	Ignoring the effects of having your alignment alter... I'd assume it would just make your character delusional. If your character cast a detect alignment spell, I'd be willing to bet they'd show up as good. If someone else cast it, they'd show up as evil. The official allignment might be evil, but if your character refuses to recognize it... Recall also, for rangers and the like, the reason you become a fallen ranger is because you're cast out by your bretheren; Its not like a paladin where you actually fall from grace. Or so I recall.