Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 01:22 PM	A friend pointed out they're not exceptionally monogamous, but they still marry, yeh? Zanan, enlighten me!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 01:26 PM	Which drow?;) If you're talking about the drow of the Underdark, and specifically places like Menzobarranzan, then no, they don't seem to marry (though I could be wrong).
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 01:32 PM	Which drow?;) If you're talking about the drow of the Underdark, and specifically places like Menzobarranzan, then no, they don't seem to marry (though I could be wrong). Yeah, meant the evil ones. The Eilistraeeans couldn't interest me with marriage if they danced naked in front of me. Hang on...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 01:35 PM	Well, it's not necessarily a matter of good and evil.:) You could be good and not be interested in formal marriage.
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 01:40 PM	Didn't say that! Just meant they're not "real" drow=)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 03:11 PM	OK, I see where this is going...;)
The Ubbergeek 01-22-08, 03:25 PM	Didn't say that! Just meant they're not "real" drow=) I still prefer the 'hippies' than the 'real' drow. Imagine a Lolthite divorce. :weep: :eek:
Shiftkitty 01-22-08, 03:51 PM	According to a few sources, Llothites do not marry. The idea of a female bonding herself to one male for the rest of her life is abhorrent at best. Other drow cultures may have other traditions.
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 04:10 PM	I've read different sources say different things. I've read some say that no like you said it was beneath a female to bind herself to a single male. Others say that houses might have an arranged marriage for political reasons so who knows. I DO know that Matrons do have Patrons which is kinda like a husband/wife well that is if you can keep the Matron happy of course.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 05:07 PM	Imagine a Lolthite divorce. :weep: :eek: -No lawyers involved. So, that's a good thing.
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 05:14 PM	-No lawyers involved. So, that's a good thing. Not for the male considering he's probably going to die or be flayed or worse....Driderhood! I'm going to rally a large group of male drow to demand equal rights in Drow society. Or at the very least a Hooters in Menzoberranzan.:D
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 05:24 PM	Not for the male considering he's probably going to die or be flayed or worse.... -That's less painful than going through a messy divorce. I'm going to rally a large group of male drow to demand equal rights in Drow society. Or at the very least a Hooters in Menzoberranzan.:D -I'm sure that'd go over very well.
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 05:31 PM	As long as they aren't female drow I don't see why the Matron Mothers would oppose giving the males something to occupy their free time with. I mean they pretty much treat them like crap so why not let them out every once and a while to go get drunk and hit on hot human and elven chicks at the local Hooters.
Another Gnome 01-22-08, 05:53 PM	Keep in mind that marriage in the Realms goes like this: "Do you?" "Yes." "Do you?" "Yes." "Good, you're married!" Each faith and community may add their own spices to the mix, but essentially that's all there is to it, if even that much. A couple can get married without a priest, witnesses, official documents, or vows, with whoever they choose as many times as they please and their union is just as valid as that of the next couple. Aside from royalty, nobility, royalty, and other wealthy people concerned with hereditary rights, in most places the married couple themselves may well be the only people who know or care that they are married in the first place. As for drow in particular, we know that some matron mothers of Menzoberranzan often name a specific patron for the house, which for all intent and purposes is their idea of marriage, and the common folk (in Menzo at least) is likely to follow suite.
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 05:55 PM	Keep in mind that marriage in the Realms goes like this: "Do you?" "Yes." "Do you?" "Yes." "Good, you're married!" Each faith and community may add their own spices to the mix, but essentially that's all there is to it, if even that much. A couple can get married without a priest, witnesses, official documents, or vows, with whoever they choose as many times as they please and their union is just as valid as that of the next couple. Aside from royalty, nobility, royalty, and other wealthy people concerned with hereditary rights, in most places the married couple themselves may well be the only people who know or care that they are married in the first place. As for drow in particular, we know that some matron mothers of Menzoberranzan often name a specific patron for the house, which for all intent and purposes is their idea of marriage, and the common folk (in Menzo at least) is likely to follow suite. That is so chaotic and disorganized..... Then again it is a hippy setting when it comes to love and such.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 06:12 PM	As long as they aren't female drow I don't see why the Matron Mothers would oppose giving the males something to occupy their free time with. I mean they pretty much treat them like crap so why not let them out every once and a while to go get drunk and hit on hot human and elven chicks at the local Hooters. -Their free time should be devoted to Lolth, and/or pleasing their Matron Mothers.
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 06:16 PM	-Their free time should be devoted to Lolth, and/or pleasing their Matron Mothers. Why she treats the males like crap? And all the males can't please their Matron Mothers in their off time. What are the soldiers and storekeepers going to do? This is why Lolth's son got so many followers. She needs to broaden her horizons. Why does she hate men any way? Is it because her ex-husband kicked her out of the house and turned her into a spider freak of nature?
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 06:24 PM	Why she treats the males like crap? -That is because they do not please her and/or Lolth enough. And all the males can't please their Matron Mothers in their off time. -When they can't please their Matron Mothers, they have Lolth to please. What are the soldiers and storekeepers going to do? -Please Lolth and/or someone else's Matron Mother. This is why Lolth's son got so many followers. -Lolth has no son. The true sons of Lolth are those who please her and/or their Matron Mothers. She needs to broaden her horizons. -Only when males please her and/or their Matron Mothers more. Why does she hate men any way? -Because they do not please her, and/or their Matron Mothers. Is it because her ex-husband kicked her out of the house and turned her into a spider freak of nature? -It is because he did not please her. -It's a very black and white issue, really. :P
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 06:26 PM	Lolth is a *****.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 06:30 PM	Lolth is a *****. -That is because males do not serve and pleasure her and/or their Matron Mothers enough.
The_Shaman 01-22-08, 06:31 PM	Why does she hate men any way? Is it because her ex-husband kicked her out of the house and turned her into a spider freak of nature? What, you mean that's not a good reason? I've seen people rant at the other gender for less. Anyway, I think DotU mentions that the only time drow marry is to strengthen a political union, and that happens almost never. I suppose that the relationship doesn't change much - the male usually has no more say in whom his "wife" sleeps with, and she's just as likely to tear him apart if she catches him cheating than if they hadn't made it official :) . The 3.5 Drow of the Underdark is not exactly a canon source for the Realms afaik, but I can believe such a situation. Apart from that, maybe there are also temporary marriages; I think Faerun has those. IIRC the clerics of Siamorphe even offered one-night marriages, ensuring that children born in one-night stands would still be legitimate heirs if the parents so decide. All in all, I don't think these would be necessary or particularly popular; rather, I imagine them more as a political ploy than anything else.
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 06:43 PM	Well it was Lolth's fault. She deserved what she got imho.
Another Gnome 01-22-08, 07:01 PM	That is so chaotic and disorganized..... There are dozens of marital practices in the real world just the same, hundreds if you count differences between the ceremonial aspects... and we only have one species and a handful of major religions to keep track of and a real-time world-wide information network to do that. We've just become so accustomed to this magic item called the World Wide Web that it's easy to forget how in the Realms it would be uncommon for people to even hear rumors of what happened ten miles down the road a week ago, let alone access official documents from a foreign country ruled by an alien life-form on the other side of the continent.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 07:02 PM	-That is because they do not please her and/or Lolth enough. -When they can't please their Matron Mothers, they have Lolth to please. -Please Lolth and/or someone else's Matron Mother. -Lolth has no son. The true sons of Lolth are those who please her and/or their Matron Mothers. -Only when males please her and/or their Matron Mothers more. -Because they do not please her, and/or their Matron Mothers. -It is because he did not please her. -It's a very black and white issue, really. :P *feels dizzy* :crazy:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 07:03 PM	Apart from that, maybe there are also temporary marriages; I think Faerun has those. It does.:)
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 07:07 PM	I think Lolth needs to find herself a man, maybe get laid or something and start over. I know Selvetarm was like her consort or something despite being her grandson (sick Lolth, that's just sick). I'm talking about a REAL man. I bet Lolth has pictures of CL in her lair and kisses them every so often before ripping them to shreds. I think the drow race would appreciate it if their goddess lightened up a little bit. Maybe they will get lucky and Lolth will kill Elistraee and absorb her and become Chaotic Neutral or something.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 08:01 PM	*feels dizzy* :crazy: -Sorry. But, Drow society is dizzying like that. :)
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 08:22 PM	Hey, I'd be ****** off if I had 8 legs.
Kenzuki 01-22-08, 08:41 PM	Hey, I'd be ****** off if I had 8 legs. She can look like a regular drow too. Heck Drizzt met Lolth or her Avatar when he was a kid. His reply was "Uh...I'm not afraid of spiders..."
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 08:50 PM	She can look like a regular drow too. Heck Drizzt met Lolth or her Avatar when he was a kid. His reply was "Uh...I'm not afraid of spiders..." Yeah, fair enough... I'd be ****** off if I was a woman! My ex had one big fault - her breasts got tender once a month much to my dismay. Earned a lot of punches. Still does.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 08:52 PM	-I...don't think that means what you think that means...? :confused:
Khaelieth 01-22-08, 08:55 PM	What - breasts? Also, on another note, I'd be useless as a woman. Too much to play with.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 09:06 PM	-Something about punching her...?
JaiaDrottsingr 01-22-08, 10:46 PM	I'd say no, based principally on the old English Kings. They could fool around as much as they liked, and often tried out both sides of the issue. So long as they produced legitimate heirs, no one cared. The king in Braveheart was actually openly gay. The queens weren't quite as unruly, but they did have they escapades.
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 12:38 AM	-Something about punching her...?He meant that SHE punched HIM, not the other way. Word of advice LK, NEVER get married... I was amazed at just how viscious they can become once armed with that little nuptuial agreement. Its like a +5 Mace of Emasculation in their hands. :( And no... I'm not bitter... much.... And just to stay on topic, the answer to the OP's question is "only if they REALLY hate each other." ;)
Storm_Silverhand 01-23-08, 01:35 AM	Heya, That is so chaotic and disorganized..... Then again it is a hippy setting when it comes to love and such. You say that like it's a bad thing... Why she treats the males like crap? And all the males can't please their Matron Mothers in their off time. What are the soldiers and storekeepers going to do? This is why Lolth's son got so many followers. She needs to broaden her horizons. Why does she hate men any way? Is it because her ex-husband kicked her out of the house and turned her into a spider freak of nature? Selvatarm is the son of Zandilar (who merged with Bast to become Sharess) and Vhaeraun. You could say he's the grand-son of Lolth.... but he's dead now, betrayed by Lolth, killed by an Eilistraeean priestess with an artifact (the Crescent Blade). Oh, and Selvatarm's story might be an early foreshadowing of what is going to happen to Eilistraee. (And I'm not talking about what happened to him in the Lady Penitent series either...)
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 07:12 AM	He meant that SHE punched HIM, not the other way. -Ohhh... Word of advice LK, NEVER get married... -I'm not planning on it any time soon.
Khaelieth 01-23-08, 07:25 AM	Yeah, I've only hurt a girl once, by accident, tried grabbing her arm to make her stop poking me and she twisted, so I ended up twisting her arm by accident. She didn't see it as an accident, so... couch, my good ol' friend, here I am! So, Lolthite do not marry... But how would a male become Patron then?
The_Shaman 01-23-08, 08:35 AM	Because she wanted him to? BTW, I wonder if something like marriage happens in the less Lloth-dominated cultures, like Sshamhath.
Another Gnome 01-23-08, 09:51 AM	Because she wanted him to? Well, it's not like being the patron of a Lolthite noble house is all without benefits, you know... :tie:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 09:57 AM	So, Lolthite do not marry... But how would a male become Patron then? *shrug* Matrons just take a patron. There doesn't need to be some official ceremony.
Khaelieth 01-23-08, 10:59 AM	And they are in no way married?
Kenzuki 01-23-08, 11:24 AM	Ah the wonders of drow society. Now I'm sure other drow besides the Lolthites get married sometimes. Half-drow probably do amongst humans.
The_Shaman 01-23-08, 12:29 PM	And they are in no way married? Look, you do realize how "Till death do us part" sounds in drow society?
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 12:52 PM	Look, you do realize how "Till death do us part" sounds in drow society? -Basically, that's pretty much, "Until later tonight".
Khaelieth 01-23-08, 07:29 PM	Look, you do realize how "Till death do us part" sounds in drow society? Good point! So... how does a Patron get appointed?
Kenzuki 01-23-08, 07:48 PM	Good point! So... how does a Patron get appointed? The Matron takes him.;)
Shiftkitty 01-23-08, 10:02 PM	Picture this. It's your high school campus. You're just an average Joe, not a jock, not a nerd, just a regular dude. You're walking to your locker when this knuckle dragging Brunhilda whom you suspect plays on the football team grabs you by the waistband of your pants (and probably underpants) and lifts you off the ground, dangling you in front of her face. "We're going to the prom," she commands. School policy is that if you refuse, she makes you eat her used tampons and then kills you slowly by strangling you with her jock strap. All the while the cheerleaders will be chanting "Toss a coin! Heads or tails! Let this be a lesson to all males!" That's my take on how a matron takes a patron.
Another Gnome 01-24-08, 04:13 AM	Of course, after the prom the guy takes home both Brunhilda and the cheerleaders, so he probably won't be complaining.
The_Shaman 01-24-08, 06:43 AM	I think it's actually them that take him home, which can be an unfortunate situation ;) . It reminds me of that old comic about prehistoric engagement techniques:, it boils to who has a bigger club and swings first.
Kenzuki 01-24-08, 07:20 AM	According to Drow of the Underdark. If two drow females desire a male they will both fight to gain his attention. Until one "gives up" to which later the winner will discover the male dead or flayed in the bed chambers later.... So if you're a male and you've attracted the attention of two drow females or even worse two drow MATRONS. You're screwed either way more than likely...
Khaelieth 01-24-08, 07:27 AM	That's how Drizzt never got into trouble, he was ugly!=) But I know the male has little say, but a Patron isn't that far below anyone, really [in a house]. How is he chosen? I don't see him being elected. Does the Matron choose?
Kenzuki 01-24-08, 07:33 AM	That's how Drizzt never got into trouble, he was ugly!=) But I know the male has little say, but a Patron isn't that far below anyone, really [in a house]. How is he chosen? I don't see him being elected. Does the Matron choose? I think she just picks who is the Patron. Matron Malice had two men after all, Rizzen and Zak. She pushed Zak down from Patron to humble him or something and chose Rizzen as the new patron. I doubt she liked him as much as Zak though. Malice was also known for taking any man she liked into her bed too supposedly. Briza's father wasn't even named while the other children were either Rizzen's or Zak.
Khaelieth 01-24-08, 07:38 AM	What are Patron's then chosen for? Looks or power? If they're just puppets with no real power, why should the Matron bother about who's best at hurling daggers?
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 08:38 AM	What are Patron's then chosen for? Looks or power? If they're just puppets with no real power, why should the Matron bother about who's best at hurling daggers? -Both, I'd say. They're proverbial arm candy, either due to their looks, their temperment, or their abilities. -Also note that as they are reproducing with said individuals, you want to have the best genetic material to work with.
Zanan 01-24-08, 09:09 AM	Right ... after reading about various ideas on how this might work ... and what Drow of the Underdark says with regard to Core (i.e. Greyhawk) drow, here's Ed Greenwood's take on this issue, straight from The Drow of the Underdark: Among Lolth-worshipping drow nobles, females can choose and discard mates freely (sometimes merely leaving them, but usually by slaying them). Among drow commoners and drow of other faiths, marriage is still a transient thing. Marriages usually last from summer to summer, or for a decade, always with the possibility of renewal. In drow merchant clans, security demands that mates be of the same clan, or that an outsider be taken into the clan, if a relationship develops. This clan induction is forever; death usually comes if the outsider decides to leave. In noble families, the honor of the house demands the family name be given (if only temporarily) to mates of other families, or of common blood. That is FR lore and the lore I would and will use. Do keep in mind that there are various strata of society and each will or rather may have different approaches.
Lia The Sun Elf Wizard 01-26-08, 03:24 PM	Answering your post and the final answer for all of it: Get the "drow of the underdark" and read page 29, the topic "love". It's the OFFICIAL answer for this post. I can say (if u don't have acess for this book) is that they just marry to fulfill their interests (usually to become even more wealth or a political interest.) If a drow starts to feel love, they usually kill their mates before they get too involved. Remembering the females have the final word. The females can have all the males they want, but usually they get a male consort and when they don't want them anymore, they just kill the consort and get another one to replace him, some consorts have more luck and live forever beside his female drow. But it's expected that he kills himself to protect the female drow if a situation like that arise.
Khaelieth 01-26-08, 07:28 PM	Never really thought Drow of the Underdark applies to Faerūn.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 07:35 PM	Never really thought Drow of the Underdark applies to Faerūn. -The 2e The Drow of the Underdark (;) at Zanan) is Forgotten Realms specific. The 3e Drow of the Underdark isn't, and is controversial, if applied word for word.
Shiftkitty 01-26-08, 10:48 PM	Even the "official" stuff for the drow is contradictory when applied to other "official" lore. Who's that masked god, Vhaerun? I can't see his male followers obeying the "chicks rule" dictates of the spider-kissers. I've read of a couple of egalitarian drow societies (more or less), and I don't imagine they're following any lopsided customs, either. I would say that the info in DotU applies generally to Llothites. I tend to think of the ones in Menzo as fundamentalist extremists. Imagine a more liberal Christian walking into some Christian fundamentalist bible-belt hellfire and brimstone upright traditionalist church and suggesting the idea of same-sex marriage. That's like walking into Menzo and suggesting that males deserve equal rights. To stay flexible enough to handle anything canon regarding the drow and marriage, I'd set it that it varies by religion and other factors, with the default being a matriarchal (but not necessarily oppressive) society. Only Llothites would be solidly under the standard rules regarding the drow.
Zanan 01-27-08, 04:45 AM	DotUD applies to Core drow, as I and Lord Karsus said. And it surely applies to Lolthites (no Lloth in Core, BTW), as there are no gods beyond her in Core these days ... according to DotUD. I will stick to what Ed said on the drow of Faerūn and essentially, he caters to all strata of society. I would hope that people do not view the drow as a deeply religious folk. From the outside, they are surely divided into "religious factions". Whether that applies to each and every drow, even the common ones, is a matter rarely touched. For drow are, in essence, primarily shown as "NPC monsters" to be slain. Not as a society that works like others. (Of course, you do get a fair amount of description in novels and sourcebooks. But these do rarely depict any normal life - just the nobility or stuff to feed stereotypes ... IMHO)
Khaelieth 01-27-08, 07:19 AM	In the Dark Elf Trilogy, nobles were described as the Matron Mother and her immediate family, her children only, though sometimes extended to include a favored patron. The Matron Mother discarded numerous patrons in the hope that she could give birth to the daughters that are so essential to life in the Underdark. Mez'Barris found a new patron, an exceptionally large and strong male, and began with him a line of physically and emotionally superior males. He has wooed Matron Ghenni with far more romance than is usually employed in dark elf courtship, and knows how to use flattery to cajole and win favor. Although he is patron of the matron mother, in the free-wheeling relationships of this house his companionship has been enjoyed by more than one of the matron's daughters, Ghenni doesn't mind, as long as he's available when she wants him. Rinnill is a refugee from a destroyed house, and in consequence is grateful for the protection offered him by Matron Ghenni. On the other hand, he knows that all of her patrons were slain when the female tired of them, and he would prefer to avoid this fate. Indeed, so unusual among her peers is Matron Zeerith that many of her ex-patrons still live, serving the house in some fashion or another. From Menzoberranzan boxed set.
Zanan 01-27-08, 10:27 AM	... which describes behaviour of a noble drow matron when it comes to chosing partners for bed and primarily procreation.
Shiftkitty 01-27-08, 06:47 PM	Wasn't it Henry the Eighth who burned through so many women in hopes of getting a son by one? Shades of Mez'Barris...
The_Shaman 01-27-08, 07:09 PM	Shiftkitty has a good point: drow cities themselves can vary, and what's typical for one may be absurd in another. Thus, the society/mores in 3.5 DotU could be used, just not in Menzoberranzan - or, I suppose, Shamhath. BTW, it doesn't help that the older lore itself may be contradictory. IIRC an old (2e or AD&D) book - I think the original DotU, but don't quote me on that - actually said that Lloth does have the occasional male cleric, but they don't advance past some level.
Storm_Silverhand 01-28-08, 03:45 AM	Heya, BTW, it doesn't help that the older lore itself may be contradictory. IIRC an old (2e or AD&D) book - I think the original DotU, but don't quote me on that - actually said that Lloth does have the occasional male cleric, but they don't advance past some level. Yes, probably that book... And Demihuman Deities. Lolth in 3e though doesn't have male clergy as per Faiths and Pantheons. (Yeah, I don't have the books in my hand right this second - so I could be misremembering.)
Zanan 01-28-08, 03:59 AM	No, you are correct ... Lolth actually had male clerics in AD&D, they couldn't get pas tlevel 8 though. Enter 3E and some strange stuff with a) Lolth becoming female only for all divine casters and b ) Eilistraee becoming "by default" open to all genders when she was female only beforehand. Never did a designer stated on that and how it will be working in 4E is everybody's guess. Not that I have any doubt whatsoever that they will have EIlstraee staying gender-open (if she's actually about) and Lolth staying even more manically gender-restricted and cold-blooded evil (if she is about). So the sources are not contradictory, they just changed it in 3E with respect to genders. Obviously, marrriage amongst drow is about as important to players and DMs as is marriage amongst hobgoblins, illithids, orcs and the like.
Kynesis 02-01-08, 06:57 AM	As ever, its entirely up to your group / DM. If you look at real life religions that have restrictions on relationships and marriage, even the restrictions that various royal families in cultures all over the world, people still get married. The higher the public profile a person has, the more strongly they're held to public standards... the greater the risk and consequence of being found guilty of disappointing the masses. As you work your way down the social ladder you'll find the greater your chance of finding people who don't hold so tightly to rules that restrict relationships or people who care to enforce them with anything more than an upturned nose. One of the greatest thrills of Drow society is getting away with things, trading secrets and generally gambling with their lives for the sake of the thrill, pride or social standing. I'd imagine most Drow societies are rife with secret relationships and concealed marriages - particularly with women in charge. Most of the material about Drow has been written by blokes and so focus on political intrigue, military action and Bond style spy missions. Written by women... it'd be relationships cover to cover, gossip, betrayal, revenge for hurt feelings, revenge for taking the lover of a friend you liked but later decided was no good, sneaking about to meet the lower class guy who caught your eye to mills&boon with.... and buckets of stuff that'd bore us to death... eye-gouging-brain-melting-please-stoppery-thank-god-its-not-written-by-women! It'd be much closer to real Drow society if it were, but at the price of our sanity. Maybe one day we'll manage to incorporate a good dose without letting it run too far. edit: Drow Barbie... the Drow Barbie accessories... what a market, i can see it now, the stories Drow girls dream for the Drow Barbies... if more girls played dnd there'd be an article in that
Storm_Silverhand 02-01-08, 07:20 AM	Heya, Most of the material about Drow has been written by blokes and so focus on political intrigue, military action and Bond style spy missions. Written by women... it'd be relationships cover to cover, gossip, betrayal, revenge for hurt feelings, revenge for taking the lover of a friend you liked but later decided was no good, sneaking about to meet the lower class guy who caught your eye to mills&boon with.... and buckets of stuff that'd bore us to death... eye-gouging-brain-melting-please-stoppery-thank-god-its-not-written-by-women! Oh and we wouldn't want to stereotype anyone, now would we? :rolleyes: edit: Drow Barbie... the Drow Barbie accessories... what a market, i can see it now, the stories Drow girls dream for the Drow Barbies... if more girls played dnd there'd be an article in that :yuck:
Kenzuki 02-01-08, 07:25 AM	Heya, Oh and we wouldn't want to stereotype anyone, now would we? :rolleyes: :yuck: Most women are like that though.....
Storm_Silverhand 02-01-08, 07:38 AM	Heya, Most women are like that though..... And most men are chauvinistic prigs. But I don't hold that against them. :rolleyes: (Just in case anyone really thinks I mean that - I was half being sarcastic, and half being tongue in cheek.)
Zanan 02-01-08, 09:08 AM	BTW, most of the basic drow lore (Core and FR) have indeed been written by males. Interestingly enough, Ed Greenwood's TDotUD and RAS' Menzoberranzan box hardly show what Kynesis implies above. As for the novels, it is a 50/50 split. RAS did not actually write that much about drow society as such, WotSQ featured Lisa Smedman, who also wrote the LP series. Elaine Cunningham had a trilogy on Liriel Baenre with quite a bit of drow lore ... so in essence, Kynesis is walking on thin ice here.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 01:27 PM	Most of the material about Drow has been written by blokes and so focus on political intrigue, military action and Bond style spy missions. Written by women... it'd be relationships cover to cover, gossip, betrayal, revenge for hurt feelings, revenge for taking the lover of a friend you liked but later decided was no good, sneaking about to meet the lower class guy who caught your eye to mills&boon with.... and buckets of stuff that'd bore us to death... eye-gouging-brain-melting-please-stoppery-thank-god-its-not-written-by-women! Not true. Read the House of Serpents trilogy. Or any of the numerous drow novels written by female authors, such as Elaine Cunningham and Lisa Smedman.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 01:28 PM	... so in essence, Kynesis is walking on thin ice here. No, he's just plain wrong. The ice is already broken, and I hope he can swim.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 01:32 PM	-That sounded like an EBism, what was wrote there.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 01:56 PM	-That sounded like an EBism, what was wrote there. Yes, vaguely.
The_Shaman 02-02-08, 11:22 AM	EBism? Anyway, this reminds me of one other reason why drow probably wouldn't marry: a known and lasting attachment means that you place the other person at risk by anyone who tries to get to you. Drow have taken revenge to an art form, and for all your foes your significant other - if they ever learn of him/her, and that's always a possibility - will be the perfect way to really hurt you if they can't get to you. And if they ever find a way to supplant your spouce, you are dead. If you love someone, you should avoid putting them in trouble. Even if you don't, it still means you want to protect them to avoid tarnishing your reputation. Most drow have enough problems protecting themselves ;) . So no matter if they actually cared for the other guy/girl or just wanted some stress relief with minimal chances of assassination, they'd prefer avoiding any formality in it.
GothicDan 02-02-08, 01:15 PM	So, I didn't want to dislike Kenzuki based off of his purely uninformed opinions and immature views of the way things work. But this thread makes me able to dislike him. Mind you, I do think that there are certain general tendencies that define each gender. That's how our neurologies work. But Kenzuki's just being idiotic.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 01:53 PM	EBism? -Something that EB would write. EBisms usually are shocking, and leave one going, in order, ":blink:...:nonono:". -Would you like some examples of EBisms?
Kenzuki 02-02-08, 07:26 PM	So, I didn't want to dislike Kenzuki based off of his purely uninformed opinions and immature views of the way things work. But this thread makes me able to dislike him. Mind you, I do think that there are certain general tendencies that define each gender. That's how our neurologies work. But Kenzuki's just being idiotic. I don't care what you think about me. I was just kidding anyway. Try pulling that stick out of your nethers and maybe you could lighten up a little bit mate.
Storm_Silverhand 02-02-08, 07:38 PM	Heya, Are you referring to Kenzuki's agreement with Kynesis? Or something else in this thread I missed? If so, is it not Kynesis's EBism?
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:27 AM	If so, is it not Kynesis's EBism? -It is indeed his/her EBism.
Kenzuki 02-03-08, 07:07 AM	Like I said. I was only kidding when I said that. I ment no offense to women and thought it would be taken as jest. Still, I don't appreciate being called an idiot by someone I've never done anything too. It's just plain rude.:P
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:09 PM	Like I said. I was only kidding when I said that. I ment no offense to women and thought it would be taken as jest. Still, I don't appreciate being called an idiot by someone I've never done anything too. It's just plain rude.:P -If GD called you an 'idiot', you really should be honored. He's ackowledged you. Now, you can work your way up the ranks. 'Idiot', then 'Stupid', then 'Dummy', then 'Not Half Bad'...;)
GothicDan 02-03-08, 01:22 PM	I like the stick right where it is, thanks. :) That being said, judging someone's character based solely off of he or she treats YOU is something I never want to see people do. It's short-sited, even more egocentric than I can handle, and can easily lead to blind ignorance. We should judge people off of who they are, not how they treat us alone.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:23 PM	I like the stick right where it is, thanks. :) I really don't want to contemplate the alternative meanings of that...
Kenzuki 02-03-08, 01:37 PM	I like the stick right where it is, thanks. :) That being said, judging someone's character based solely off of he or she treats YOU is something I never want to see people do. It's short-sited, even more egocentric than I can handle, and can easily lead to blind ignorance. We should judge people off of who they are, not how they treat us alone. And you can tell who they are on a forum on the internet?
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:40 PM	And you can tell who they are on a forum on the internet? If you have enough insight (or if you just read some of their posts that aren't directed at you), yes. Of course, that shoudn't stop you from responding in the appropriate manner if they provoke you, but just keep a little thought to their overall nature in your mind somewhere.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 04:15 PM	Anyway, this reminds me of one other reason why drow probably wouldn't marry: a known and lasting attachment means that you place the other person at risk by anyone who tries to get to you. Drow have taken revenge to an art form, and for all your foes your significant other - if they ever learn of him/her, and that's always a possibility - will be the perfect way to really hurt you if they can't get to you. And if they ever find a way to supplant your spouce, you are dead. If you love someone, you should avoid putting them in trouble. Even if you don't, it still means you want to protect them to avoid tarnishing your reputation. Most drow have enough problems protecting themselves ;) . So no matter if they actually cared for the other guy/girl or just wanted some stress relief with minimal chances of assassination, they'd prefer avoiding any formality in it. You make a good point. Although, whether or not a "renegrade" drow would want to marry would probaby depend on their philosophy--they might have a "to hell with it, let's just get married and be happy" view of things. Or, they may want to avoid growing attached to anyone for fear of losing them, as you said.
Storm_Silverhand 02-03-08, 04:37 PM	Heya, You make a good point. Although, whether or not a "renegrade" drow would want to marry would probaby depend on their philosophy--they might have a "to hell with it, let's just get married and be happy" view of things. Or, they may want to avoid growing attached to anyone for fear of losing them, as you said. Or they may not have a burning need to be married to be happy with the love of their life. Why do people put marriage on such a pedestal?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 04:53 PM	Well, even if they simply live to together, they would still be putting their loved one at risk. Also, sometimes marriage is de facto. In the U.S. there is a such thing as a common law marriage (if a couple live together long enough, they are legally considered married), although I don't know how many states still have such a law in place.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 05:08 PM	Why do people put marriage on such a pedestal? It's a fundemantal part of our society, and an important one too. Think about it, people like sex, and without some sort of binding law hold people responsible for their actions, we would have an awful lot of homeless children in the world. People are naturally selfish, that is why we have laws. If you don't wanna marry, then don't casually have sex.
Kenzuki 02-03-08, 07:41 PM	Heya, Or they may not have a burning need to be married to be happy with the love of their life. Why do people put marriage on such a pedestal? Because Marriage represents committment. To me it's a covenant in which you publicly declare that you forsake all others for this one person. It's just special in my eyes. I know it's not that in the Realms though with how loose every one is and all.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 11:57 PM	In the U.S. there is a such thing as a common law marriage (if a couple live together long enough, they are legally considered married), although I don't know how many states still have such a law in place. -There aren't too many. 11 states, plus DC: Alabama Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah. I was surpised about NH and RI. And, Utah? Well, anything goes, there. ;) If you don't wanna marry, then don't casually have sex. -She's (Zandilar) gonna get you now. For what it's worth, I agree with you, though, to a point. Don't be promiscuous about it.
Storm_Silverhand 02-04-08, 01:36 AM	Heya, Well, even if they simply live to together, they would still be putting their loved one at risk. Also, sometimes marriage is de facto. In the U.S. there is a such thing as a common law marriage (if a couple live together long enough, they are legally considered married), although I don't know how many states still have such a law in place. We have common law marriages here too, otherwise known as defacto relationships. It only applies to people of opposite genders, of course. If someone is really paranoid about putting their loved one at risk, better to not have a relationship at all. Loving someone, being involved with them, but not living together doesn't make much of a difference if the bad guys know who they are and where they live. It's a fundemantal part of our society, and an important one too. Think about it, people like sex, and without some sort of binding law hold people responsible for their actions, we would have an awful lot of homeless children in the world. People are naturally selfish, that is why we have laws. If you don't wanna marry, then don't casually have sex. You really honestly believe that if we didn't have marriage, most kids would be wandering the streets? I don't know what to say to that, it just boggles the mind. We have enough homeless children in the world as it is, and that's even with marriage. Because Marriage represents committment. To me it's a covenant in which you publicly declare that you forsake all others for this one person. It's just special in my eyes. I know it's not that in the Realms though with how loose every one is and all. You don't need to be married to be committed to someone, and not every marriage has or needs a forsaking all others vow. There are people who live in open marriages, you know. Also, marriage is no guarantee of life long commitment... There's that little thing called Divorce.
Zireael 02-04-08, 03:30 AM	And drow live in "open marriages" :) :) :) :) :D :D
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 03:55 AM	You really honestly believe that if we didn't have marriage, most kids would be wandering the streets? I don't know what to say to that, it just boggles the mind. We have enough homeless children in the world as it is, and that's even with marriage. -I believe he is referring to the scenario where two individuals meet, the man impregnates the woman, and then disappears, leaving the woman to fend for herself, and her child. Continuing on, the woman gives birth to her child, and raises it, but does so all while encountering a great deal of social/economic hardship. -This is a quantifiable fact, as a majority of single-parent households (usually the mother) live close to, or below the poverty line, especially if there are multiple children involved, in the United States. On my way to school, when I am at my mother's house, I pass by a Welfare Office. Day in and day out, 80%+ of the people waiting in line for the office to open are women (usually racial minorities), most with baby carriages and/or young children with them. -With an entire society adhering to the idea where sex is avoided until marriage, sexual promiscuity is eliminated, you stay with your partner, and such, you aren't going to have situations such as what I described in my first paragraph, with a woman tumbling into poverty because of her status as a single parent. The problem is, as you mentioned, that marriage can be annulled via divorce, meaning that marriage itself isn't going to solve said problems. The elimination of rampant sexual promiscuity, sexual irresponsibility and, in my mind, moral decency, however, does.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 12:26 PM	Because Marriage represents committment. To me it's a covenant in which you publicly declare that you forsake all others for this one person. It's just special in my eyes. I know it's not that in the Realms though with how loose every one is and all. Not everyone in the Realms is "loose". I know not everyone here is a fan of Salvatore's work, but his novels actually feature two couples who considered themselves married without actually having a ceremony. They would be Wulfgar and Delly, and as per The Orc King, Drizzt and Cattie-brie (though apparently, they intend to have a formal ceremony at some point in the future).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 12:27 PM	-There aren't too many. 11 states, plus DC: Alabama Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah. I was surpised about NH and RI. And, Utah? Well, anything goes, there. ;) Thanks for the list. I know NJ used to accept common law marriages, but stopped decades ago.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 12:29 PM	Heya, We have common law marriages here too, otherwise known as defacto relationships. It only applies to people of opposite genders, of course. Interesting to know.:) If someone is really paranoid about putting their loved one at risk, better to not have a relationship at all. Loving someone, being involved with them, but not living together doesn't make much of a difference if the bad guys know who they are and where they live. Well yes, that was more or less what I said.:)
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:39 PM	Not everyone in the Realms is "loose". -For example, men in Turmish have more than one wife, yes, but they are fiercely loyal to them, as are the wives to the husband. Thanks for the list. I know NJ used to accept common law marriages, but stopped decades ago. -Wikipedia at your service. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 12:46 PM	-For example, men in Turmish have more than one wife, yes, but they are fiercely loyal to them, as are the wives to the husband. Indeed, and there are the tons of devoted couples I've read about in Realms fiction. Such as Drizzt and Catti-brie (hey, it's an example!).:P
Kenzuki 02-04-08, 04:25 PM	I think open marriages are a perversion. That's just my thinking on the matter based on how I was raised. I was raised in a conservative household in South Georgia and both my parents were ministers (which is why I think it's stupid for churches to claim a woman can't be a preacher). So I tend to think along more conservative and modest lines of thought on issues. I realize not everyone has the same line of thought though. Usually these people tend to come from mostly the North from what I've experienced. Oh Storm about the Common Law Marriage. Where I come from we used to call that a "Come along marriage". Or maybe that was just the accent?:P
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 05:55 PM	I think open marriages are a perversion. -Uh, oh....Here we go. -I'm taking bets, people. Odds are in Storm's favor, 3 to 1. Any takers? Any takers? :D
Shiftkitty 02-04-08, 06:12 PM	As a conservative atheist, I regard marriage as a legal matter, not a spiritual one. Do I love my husband? Betcher ass I do. I have no doubts about him on this matter, either. But we didn't need any holy man or woman to confirm it for us in the eyes of a (to my beliefs) non-existent extra-corporeal entity. We got married because we needed the legal right to handle each others' financial affairs. He made plenty of money but had no time to deal with things. I had nothing but time, but no money. In my campaign, marriages among higher levels of society are similar. They are legal matters pertaining to business, even in drow societies. Among commoners, it's more of an alliance between two people.
Kenzuki 02-04-08, 06:18 PM	-Uh, oh....Here we go. -I'm taking bets, people. Odds are in Storm's favor, 3 to 1. Any takers? Any takers? :D It's a fool's bet because I'm not going to debate this issue.:P
Storm_Silverhand 02-04-08, 08:41 PM	Heya, I have a lot to say about the subject of marriage in the Real World, but it really isn't appropriate for this forum. I will just say that marriage is a very complex subject, but it is also rather straight forward and simple. I don't think the drow have a society where marriage would be the rule, since the society is a matriarchy, and the legitimacy of children is not really an issue when the line is traced through the mother (since it's rather hard to fake a pregnancy, a matron will always know which children are hers). Kenzuki, I'm curious as to why you think open marriages are a perversion, but if you don't want to answer, that's all right. (If you do, it might be best to take the converstion to PMs.)
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 11:19 PM	We got married because we needed the legal right to handle each others' financial affairs. He made plenty of money but had no time to deal with things. I had nothing but time, but no money. -Dare I say, a match made in...:shifty:...Heaven? :rofl: It's a fool's bet because I'm not going to debate this issue.:P -Looks like she won, then. Pay off is rather low, people, pick up your money at the window. :incog:
msatran 02-04-08, 11:46 PM	My answer to this whole thing is, once again "If your DM says yes, then it's okay." In my game, the answer is "Not really." Surface drow might, if they really liked someone, but in general, Drow take what they want and dispose of it when they're done. Their alignment is, as far as the game is concerned, Evil. And when you're evil, that means you exert your power and take what you want.
The_Shaman 02-05-08, 06:22 PM	-Something that EB would write. EBisms usually are shocking, and leave one going, in order, ":blink:...:nonono:". -Would you like some examples of EBisms? Oh dear, and I thought living under a rock had its perks... Who's EB? Well, even if they simply live to together, they would still be putting their loved one at risk. Also, sometimes marriage is de facto. RL laws aside, a marriage is different from cohabitation in that it is supposedly legally based and public. In drow society, both would be visible and thus mean that the connection is more obvious and thus severing it would be more satisfying revenge-wise. Killing or stealing a mate from your rival is a much more thorough humiliation when they've gone to the trouble of making their relation publicly recognized before that. As to the RL example, I think marriage brings a little extra security or recognition. Yes, I know couples that aren't married and still have children, but I think that for many people marriage does bring a little extra certainty.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 06:35 PM	Oh dear, and I thought living under a rock had its perks... Who's EB? -ExtinctionBeta/CreationOmega/Warning. Yes, I know couples that aren't married and still have children, but I think that for many people marriage does bring a little extra certainty. -And, divorce is a procedure that many people do not want to go through, for various reasons: personal, financial, social, etc. The same can't be said about a random guy you've been sleeping with suddenly getting up and leaving, never to be seen or found ever again.
The_Shaman 02-06-08, 08:52 AM	-And, divorce is a procedure that many people do not want to go through, for various reasons: personal, financial, social, etc. The same can't be said about a random guy you've been sleeping with suddenly getting up and leaving, never to be seen or found ever again. True. I never said it was perfect reasoning to say that marriage provides more stability, just that many people believe it to be and have their reasons for it. I'd say that it does offer a little more stability - not always enough, but some.
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 12:20 PM	True. I never said it was perfect reasoning to say that marriage provides more stability, just that many people believe it to be and have their reasons for it. I'd say that it does offer a little more stability - not always enough, but some. -Yes, that was support to further back your statement. ;)
Shiftkitty 02-06-08, 03:26 PM	RE: Drow relationships In Menzoberranzan, a matriarchal society, the females rate higher than the males, the nobles rate higher than the commoners. So when a noble male and a commoner female meet, who has the upper rank? Does "noble" override gender? Also, when it comes to terminating a relationship, it's rather obvious that a Matron Mother has the final, and probably only, say in when and how it ends. I imagine a priestess is the same way. But take someone with the social standing of Gromph, I'm sure he's tossed aside lovers. What sort of social standings might they have had for a male to be able to be the deciding factor in when and how it ended?
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 03:56 PM	I imagine a priestess is the same way. But take someone with the social standing of Gromph, I'm sure he's tossed aside lovers. What sort of social standings might they have had for a male to be able to be the deciding factor in when and how it ended? -That's what he did when he sired Liriel. If I remember correctly, he was having a fling with a women from a lower social caste/family. When she gave birth, and Liriel exhibited some talent for the arcane, Gromph had her mother killed, so he could take the baby, and raise her as a Wizard.
Zanan 02-06-08, 06:29 PM	The above only answers the question for the most powerful* male in Menzoberranzan though. As for the rest, we do not know. Just keep in mind that drow do mind "personal power" and AFAIK, only spiders are sacrosanct beings in drow society. *Perhaps not in game terms, but overall.
Khaelieth 02-06-08, 06:48 PM	As to the RL example, I think marriage brings a little extra security or recognition. Yes, I know couples that aren't married and still have children, but I think that for many people marriage does bring a little extra certainty. It's statistically proven that children with divorced parents are roughly 50% more likely to be depressed or have some sort of psychological problem. They also, statistically, don't do as well at school. Also, they're approximately 50% more likely to get a divorce themselves. But that aside, I think we can conclude with that drow do not marry!
Kenzuki 02-06-08, 06:51 PM	It's statistically proven that children with divorced parents are roughly 50% more likely to be depressed or have some sort of psychological problem. They also, statistically, don't do as well at school. Also, they're approximately 50% more likely to get a divorce themselves. But that aside, I think we can conclude with that drow do not marry! That's easy to solve. Don't divorce. There is a reason the vows state "For better or worse..." But they don't really mean the vows anymore anyway:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 06:59 PM	That's easy to solve. Don't divorce. There is a reason the vows state "For better or worse..." But they don't really mean the vows anymore anyway:rolleyes: -I'd rather have parents who are divorced than a father who regularly physically, verbally and emotionally abuses me and/or my mother or sister.
Kenzuki 02-06-08, 07:09 PM	-I'd rather have parents who are divorced than a father who regularly physically, verbally and emotionally abuses me and/or my mother or sister. Well if it's abusive I can understand that. But if one of them just says "I want a divorce. I don't love you anymore." I think that's total bull myself. America has a divorce rate of over 50%, that's sad. My parents have been married 43 years. It wasn't always good but they stuck with it and even if they do argue sometimes they still love each other. People that get married and divorce after the first arguement are just childish in my opinion. But if a couple DOES have to get a divorce. Please do it before you have kids, think of the children. Of course I consider marriage to be something sacred so my views may be considered silly to some of you.
The_Shaman 02-06-08, 07:18 PM	But they don't really mean the vows anymore anyway:rolleyes: Tell me about it. Have you heard some of those oaths they make you say when you run for a public office?
Kiioro 02-06-08, 08:36 PM	I think that, more than marrying, they just get together while it's convenient, each tries to make most of the advantages presented and then the bond is broken. If one loved the other-- even if each loved the other, I believe that feelings would be buried under many faēades. Just like when Matron Malice ordered Zaknafein's punishment (to be made into a Drider), she was sad because she felt more than lust towards him, yet, her survival instinct told her to do what she "should".
Kenzuki 02-06-08, 08:41 PM	I think that, more than marrying, they just get together while it's convenient, each tries to make most of the advantages presented and then the bond is broken. If one loved the other-- even if each loved the other, I believe that feelings would be buried under many faēades. Just like when Matron Malice ordered Zaknafein's punishment (to be made into a Drider), she was sad because she felt more than lust towards him, yet, her survival instinct told her to do what she "should". Yeah I kinda felt that Malice wouldn't have been so bad if she was actually allowed to love. I actually liked that story myself, seeing Drizzt and Lolth together was pretty funny too. "I...I'm not afraid of spiders...."
The_Shaman 02-06-08, 09:57 PM	I think that genuine affection could work, but it would be extremely rare. Anyway, Malice wasn't the right kind of person for that. She was kind of like a prodigal priestess - probably the most iconic matron mother in the most iconic drow city. She was just too perfect a drow to have a different relationship with anyone. Vierna (or maybe Maya, though there was too little about her to give a good glimpse of her personality), now she could have made it work. It's a pity how Vierna ended, really... Especially since as a student of Zak, she herself probably saw a lot more than a regular go-getter-girl of Lloth has, and might have had her share of good fights.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 12:25 AM	But if one of them just says "I want a divorce. I don't love you anymore." I think that's total bull myself. -Hey, it happens, and people change. One, two, five, ten years from now, the person you marry can theoretically become radically different. Same goes with you. People shouldn't be forced to be unhappy, if they are actually unhappy, for whatever the reason, just because of marriage vows. -Just like I have no respect for people who allow religious leaders to determine who they should and should not vote for, I have less respect for the people who put religion ahead of themselves, and their family (ie, giving 10% of their income, no matter what the cost, to their church, or forcing family members to attend services, and so on) than I have of the 'average' person. Vierna (or maybe Maya, though there was too little about her to give a good glimpse of her personality), now she could have made it work. It's a pity how Vierna ended, really... Especially since as a student of Zak, she herself probably saw a lot more than a regular go-getter-girl of Lloth has, and might have had her share of good fights. -Vierna towards the beginning was probably Chotic Evil with Neutral Tendencies, Neutral Evil with Neutral Tendencies, or even Chaotic Neutral with Evil Tendencies. By the end, she was fully evil. I also hoped that, perhaps, Vierna could be redeemed, like Drizzt was.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 01:36 PM	RL laws aside, a marriage is different from cohabitation in that it is supposedly legally based and public. But as per the examples I gave, it doesn't always work that way in the Realms. I think even Ed has said that official, legal marriage is more important for people of wealth and power than it is for the average person. He also said that most marriage vows aren't "forever", but rather for as long as love lasts (though every religion has it's own take on this). Maybe Sage can find this answer? Please keep in mind, all, that I'm only discussing (as objectively as possible) how marriage works in the Realms, not my personal opinion of marriage the real world.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 02:12 PM	I think even Ed has said that official, legal marriage is more important for people of wealth and power than it is for the average person. He also said that most marriage vows aren't "forever", but rather for as long as love lasts (though even religion has it's own take on this). Maybe Sage can find this answer? -I recall something to the effect of nobles and more influential people have more, so marriages establish political alliances and ties between families, as well as combining the wealth. Peasants, well, they don't have very much, so it doesn't really matter. And, of course, it depends on the region. -Kind of like real life.
Shiftkitty 02-07-08, 03:07 PM	I don't think a Matron would allow herself to fall in love. Her station is determined by her power, and to admit that this other person, probably a male no less, had any kind of serious influence in her life would be to show a weakness. She's married to Lolth much as Elizabeth I considered herself married to England (IIRC). Lesser females may seek to emulate those above them and show their personal discipline as well. The weak succumb to it, the clever hide it, the strong conquer it. Males are expected to be emotionally undisciplined. They can fall in love all they want, but they shouldn't expect any "Aw, isn't that sweet?" sentimentality from the objects of their affection. It's just proof that they can't master themselves. You know how it goes in drow society, if you aren't a master, you must be a... Just my :twocents: on how we run it in my game.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-07-08, 03:21 PM	-I recall something to the effect of nobles and more influential people have more, so marriages establish political alliances and ties between families, as well as combining the wealth. Peasants, well, they don't have very much, so it doesn't really matter. And, of course, it depends on the region. And of course, most people in Faerun live in rural areas or even frontier areas, in which case there probably isn't anyone around who would care who was "officially" married to whom.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 03:34 PM	And of course, most people in Faerun live in rural areas or even frontier areas, in which case there probably isn't anyone around who would care who was "officially" married to whom. -The cloeset would probably be for 'census' reasons.
Another Gnome 02-07-08, 05:17 PM	And of course, most people in Faerun live in rural areas or even frontier areas, in which case there probably isn't anyone around who would care who was "officially" married to whom. -The cloeset would probably be for 'census' reasons. Most settlements in Faerūn are small enough for everyone to know everyone else, so I can easily imagine them doing their census in the Wild West style by simply putting up a sign saying, "Broken Hill, population 203... make that 202 as of this morning". :P Males are expected to be emotionally undisciplined. They can fall in love all they want, but they shouldn't expect any "Aw, isn't that sweet?" sentimentality from the objects of their affection. It's just proof that they can't master themselves. You know how it goes in drow society, if you aren't a master, you must be a... I still maintain my claim that most drow men not only are content with their role but also know precisely how to make the most out of it. :plotting:
Shiftkitty 02-07-08, 06:13 PM	I still maintain my claim that most drow men not only are content with their role but also know precisely how to make the most out of it. I agree with you, because that would be the only thing they knew. Even if they were suddenly exposed to another way of a life, even in another drow society, how many would scoff at males who don't know their place? At the very least, males who wanted to change things might be dismissed as "uppity males". Those who have learned how to thrive might even permanently silence the upstart. Of course, any "Male Rights" movement would meet with immediate extermination, I'm sure. What wigged my players out with my drow is that while most drow societies were matriarchal, not every Matron was a vicious b*tch. Some were no more tyrannical than a stern father in human societies would be. As smaller, lower echelon families, there was less to gain from the literal and political backstabbing that plagued noble families, and they were remarkably stable. Their advancement came from how influential they could make themselves in the neighborhood and then the community.
Kenzuki 02-07-08, 06:23 PM	-Hey, it happens, and people change. One, two, five, ten years from now, the person you marry can theoretically become radically different. Same goes with you. People shouldn't be forced to be unhappy, if they are actually unhappy, for whatever the reason, just because of marriage vows. -Just like I have no respect for people who allow religious leaders to determine who they should and should not vote for, I have less respect for the people who put religion ahead of themselves, and their family (ie, giving 10% of their income, no matter what the cost, to their church, or forcing family members to attend services, and so on) than I have of the 'average' person. -Vierna towards the beginning was probably Chotic Evil with Neutral Tendencies, Neutral Evil with Neutral Tendencies, or even Chaotic Neutral with Evil Tendencies. By the end, she was fully evil. I also hoped that, perhaps, Vierna could be redeemed, like Drizzt was. I respect your opinions of course. But I have to disagree with you on several points. While one person may stop loving the other, that other person might still love his spouse. So either way you're going to make some one unhappy. As someone who has experienced the loss of someone very close (fiancee) I can tell you that it feels like someone stuck a knife into your chest and wrenched it around a couple of times. My point is that you should not make a vowe if you do not keep it. But this whole "After ten years of being together I don't love you anymore. So I'm leaving you." thing. That's total ******** and I wouldn't accept that. It sparks of total selfishness that causes great emotional harm.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 07:03 PM	Most settlements in Faerūn are small enough for everyone to know everyone else, so I can easily imagine them doing their census in the Wild West style by simply putting up a sign saying, "Broken Hill, population 203... make that 202 as of this morning". :P -I was thinking more along the lines of the royal census taker from Cormyr arrives in Nowhereville to get a count of how many people live there, and their status and whatever, for tax reasons, but that works, too. I respect your opinions of course. But I have to disagree with you on several points. While one person may stop loving the other, that other person might still love his spouse. So either way you're going to make some one unhappy. -Of course. So, both parties should stew in their collective misery, rather parting their seperate ways, and forging new, perhaps happy lives? As someone who has experienced the loss of someone very close (fiancee) I can tell you that it feels like someone stuck a knife into your chest and wrenched it around a couple of times. -You are preaching to the choir. In the 21 years of my life, I've been the unwitting party of not one, but two divorces, as well as a host of other things. -And, why the hell did you have a fiancee, when your barely old enough to drink? My point is that you should not make a vowe if you do not keep it. But this whole "After ten years of being together I don't love you anymore. So I'm leaving you." thing. That's total ******** and I wouldn't accept that. It sparks of total selfishness that causes great emotional harm. -No, what causes emotional harm is when you force yourself to stay in a situation that hurts you emotionally/mentally when there is no real reason, other than a piece of paper that says, "So and so are married".
Kenzuki 02-07-08, 07:10 PM	*shrugs* I was in love, what can I say? We dated for close to a year. A month before we were to be wed she left me for a guy at her work she had known for a month. I guess I wasn't good enough for her.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 07:22 PM	*shrugs* I was in love, what can I say? We dated for close to a year. A month before we were to be wed she left me for a guy at her work she had known for a month. I guess I wasn't good enough for her. -A year? Dude, I've been dating the same girl for almost four now (our anniversary is the 15th or something, I don't remember), and I'd never consider marriage anytime soon.
Kenzuki 02-07-08, 08:16 PM	A year is long enough. My brother and his wife only dated three months before they got married. Now they are not only happily married but have three kids too. My parents dated about 7-9 months or so before they got married. My mom was 16 and my dad was about to turn 20. They have been been married for 43 years and have six kids, of which I'm the youngest. And my sister and her husband only dated 9 months before they got married and they have three boys, 16, 15, and 12.
Storm_Silverhand 02-07-08, 11:00 PM	Heya, A year is long enough. My brother and his wife only dated three months before they got married. Now they are not only happily married but have three kids too. My parents dated about 7-9 months or so before they got married. My mom was 16 and my dad was about to turn 20. They have been been married for 43 years and have six kids, of which I'm the youngest. And my sister and her husband only dated 9 months before they got married and they have three boys, 16, 15, and 12. My parents divorced when I was 5 or 6 years old, and I'm glad they did. My mother and father didn't have much in common to start with, and they only grew apart... Now, my mother is married again to a wonderful man who was pretty much my father figure during my teens, despite only being 6 years older than me. He's a pretty amazing person and he is so good for my mother, I can't tell you. I think they've been married for about 13 years now (they had been together quite a few years before that, though, like 5 or 6)... Their love of computers drew them together, and things only grew from there. My father, on the other hand, is also married again to a wonderful woman with whom he has a daughter. They dated for less than a year, and married because she became pregnant... But even so, they're happy together. If it means anything to you, she helped him to find Christ again. (It doesn't mean anything to me, except that she and I have some very interesting and fun conversations about religion when we get together.) The point of the matter is, my mother and father are far far far happier now, than they ever were married to each other. If they had been forced to stay together, they would never have met the true loves of their lives, and would have been very miserable. I would never wish that on anyone. I think you need to live your life a bit more, Kenzuki, before you can really understand what you're talking about.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 11:20 PM	-If you don't mind me asking- and you don't have to answeer if you don't want to, nor am I trying to be an ass- but, where are you from?
Shiftkitty 02-08-08, 01:18 AM	I think a deciding factor in how strong your relationship is going to be isn't how long you knew each other before taking the plunge but in how honest you've been with each other and yourself in the time you HAVE known each other. If you've known each other for 20 years but have put up false fronts as to who you really are, you probably won't be as happy as the couple who spent 3 months being totally honest with each other. It's important to have realistic expectations about a relationship. Some women go in expecting to be living the Barbie Doll life with Ken showering her with roses, candy, and spontaneous gifts. Some guys go in thinking "Hot damn! Free sex and someone to do the cooking and the laundry!" One problem is that people get married or agree to get married when they are in loooooove:inlove: :inlove: . Probably the worst time to be making a life-changing decision. They don't ask themselves seriously, "Am I prepared to spend the rest of my life with this person?" :twocents:
Zanan 02-08-08, 04:02 AM	NB: While it is all very interesting ...*scribbling down all the facts about fellow boarders* ... I doubt the public on here needs to know. ;)
Storm_Silverhand 02-08-08, 06:18 AM	Heya, NB: While it is all very interesting ...*scribbling down all the facts about fellow boarders* ... I doubt the public on here needs to know. ;) True enough. I was just responding to Kenzuki, and hopefully showing him that not everything in this world is black and white.
Kiioro 02-08-08, 04:00 PM	Also, let's not forget that Drow society is also quite unlike modern societies: as far as I'm concerned, I'd be in deep trouble if I stabbed my brother in the back in the midst of a battle. That goes without mentioning the fact that I'd have to have been brought up in a different environment to consider such an action seriously. That being said, I'd think that there would be 4 very, very different situations for drow marriage: A) Marriage in which one has a high rank (priestess, high wizard, etc), the other one doesn't. B) Both are low-ranked members of society. C) Both are high-class drow. D) Same sex marriage. In "D", they don't have to worry about "this filthy male will try to..." because he's also male, nor worry about "she'll kill me the moment I step out of my male guidelines" because she'd be female too, D is something that would go mano a mano with A, B or C.
Kenzuki 02-08-08, 06:07 PM	-If you don't mind me asking- and you don't have to answeer if you don't want to, nor am I trying to be an ass- but, where are you from? Georgia Storm's got me on her point. To be honest I would rather see a couple agree to seperate than for it to happen because of adultery or something like that.
Shiftkitty 02-08-08, 10:51 PM	Also, let's not forget that Drow society is also quite unlike modern societies: as far as I'm concerned, I'd be in deep trouble if I stabbed my brother in the back in the midst of a battle. That goes without mentioning the fact that I'd have to have been brought up in a different environment to consider such an action seriously. That being said, I'd think that there would be 4 very, very different situations for drow marriage: A) Marriage in which one has a high rank (priestess, high wizard, etc), the other one doesn't. B) Both are low-ranked members of society. C) Both are high-class drow. D) Same sex marriage. In "D", they don't have to worry about "this filthy male will try to..." because he's also male, nor worry about "she'll kill me the moment I step out of my male guidelines" because she'd be female too, D is something that would go mano a mano with A, B or C. I imagine "D" would have to be hidden very carefully for a pair of males. I don't see the drow as being very open minded about homosexuality, especially among males, although females might receive a bit more slack on the matter. Is there anything canon on this?
Lord Karsus 02-08-08, 11:25 PM	NB: While it is all very interesting ...*scribbling down all the facts about fellow boarders* ... I doubt the public on here needs to know. ;) -This is all very relevant, you see. We are comparing the mating and marriage rituals of Humans, based on experiences we are all familiar with, and will be soon comparing and contrasting, with Drow society as the context for said discussion, you see. :P Georgia -Aha.
Storm_Silverhand 02-09-08, 07:37 AM	Heya, I imagine "D" would have to be hidden very carefully for a pair of males. I don't see the drow as being very open minded about homosexuality, especially among males, although females might receive a bit more slack on the matter. Is there anything canon on this? My gut says that they overall wouldn't really care either way. Remember, Drow society is not exclusively matriarchal, so it's very difficult to make sweeping generalizations like that. There are places where "Lolth's Pecking Order" does not apply (like Sshamath for instance, a city run by drow mages the majority of whom are male, and any Eilistraeean settlement which, outside of the clergy (prior to the Lady Penitent series, of course), would be far more gender equal than a Lolthite settlement would be). In a settlement based around Lolth's teachings, male homosexuality might be proscribed (forbidden), and female homosexuality would be rare (due to the fact that you'll never know if your lover is going to turn around and stab you in the back the next day), but not discouraged. But there may be some settlements based around Lolth's teaching that might encourage male homosexuality, and watching it might even be a form of entertainment for the female drow, while it discourages female homosexuality... And any combination of the above you can think of... And in some Lolthite settlements it might swing between these combinations on a daily, or weekly, or monthly, or even yearly basis depending on which Noble House has the upper hand at that moment. But who knows really? This is a completely different world to our own, it has none of the baggage we have on Earth associated with homosexuality beyond the implications for noble lines and royalty. It's hard to imagine such a "paradise" (it's not exactly, Abeir-Toril still has it's problems), when we here on Earth still have radical religious nutters and homophobes still trying to deny homosexuals equal rights. I might address this in a question for Ed Greenwood, but it's late and I'm rambling now...
Kenzuki 02-09-08, 07:53 AM	They aren't nuts Storm. You may disagree with how some people choose to follow doctrine, but that doesn't make them wrong or you right.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 08:03 AM	But there may be some settlements based around Lolth's teaching that might encourage male homosexuality, and watching it might even be a form of entertainment for the female drow, while it discourages female homosexuality... -Eh, I don't know about this part. If the Drow males are already homosexual, then engaging in such activities are going to bring them...pleasure, I guess. And, 'enabling' them, for a lack of better words, isn't the best way to keep them under control. Of course, though, if the priestess' get a kick out of it, it's their society.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 12:28 PM	They aren't nuts Storm. You may disagree with how some people choose to follow doctrine, but that doesn't make them wrong or you right. The thing is that when they choose to impose those doctrines upon others and use doctrine to justify unscrunpulous actions and make peace with their own pitiful moralities that troubles me. That is why I despise Evangelicals (no offense to anyone here). Utilitarianism is the answer here guys, who gives a crap about intentions, goodness, and traditions. As long as it works and causes the most amount of good for the most amount of people, then I say by all means pursue it. Consequences rather than actual morality should drive us. There is not godo or evil, only good and bad. That is why I think it is both foolish and unproductive to spend time arguing over pointless issues such as gay marriage, abortion (well, not completly pointless in this case), and immigration (which helps our economy anyway) just so one feels safe maintaining the way of life they have always lived when we have far more pressing issues in society today to deal with. Just let things be for now and when we actually have the luxury of conducting such manuevers we can go back to it.
msatran 02-09-08, 05:37 PM	I respect your opinions of course. But I have to disagree with you on several points. While one person may stop loving the other, that other person might still love his spouse. So either way you're going to make some one unhappy. As someone who has experienced the loss of someone very close (fiancee) I can tell you that it feels like someone stuck a knife into your chest and wrenched it around a couple of times. My point is that you should not make a vowe if you do not keep it. But this whole "After ten years of being together I don't love you anymore. So I'm leaving you." thing. That's total ******** and I wouldn't accept that. It sparks of total selfishness that causes great emotional harm. It's not total *********. It happens all the time. It's just that in human society, we have divorce court. In Drow Society, we have the Destruction spell and the Implosion spell.
Another Gnome 02-09-08, 07:17 PM	I don't see the drow as being very open minded about homosexuality, especially among males, although females might receive a bit more slack on the matter. Drow are not open-minded, but sexuality in itself is completely irrelevant to them. For a drow, sex can be business or pleasure, power or entertainment, reproduction or simply passing time for lack of anything better to do. The only stigma a drow might get from having sex would be if he or she did it with a lesser being (i.e. pretty much everything else from the drow point of view), and even then only if the intent was to specifically please the lesser being and not oneself. Unless there was a good reason for it. Such as being drunk. Or just bored. Drow relationships are not built upon the sexuality of the partners, but on what each one is getting out of the deal, regardless of what it is and who they're getting it from. A drow couple might get married because the girl thinks the guy has good genes to pass on to kids, while the guy is hopelessly in love with the girl of his dreams whose kobold slave is just the cutest little thing in town, and they would live happily ever after. Except for the kobold maybe, but it's not like anyone cared about his opinion to begin with. [The above does not refer to any specific source, and is simply extrapolation.]
XHereticX 02-09-08, 09:45 PM	It's not total *********. It happens all the time. It's just that in human society, we have divorce court. In Drow Society, we have the Destruction spell and the Implosion spell. Yep, and keep in mind that more often than not in a divorce the two individuals would be a lot happier and a better presence to those around them if they got divorced than if they lived together.
GothicDan 02-12-08, 10:49 AM	They aren't nuts Storm. You may disagree with how some people choose to follow doctrine, but that doesn't make them wrong or you right. Actually, it is. Humans define wrong and right, whether it's individually or the humans that wrote the bible. It's up to each and every one of us to take on the responsibility of free thought.
Kenzuki 02-12-08, 04:40 PM	Actually, it is. Humans define wrong and right, whether it's individually or the humans that wrote the bible. It's up to each and every one of us to take on the responsibility of free thought. If humans define right and wrong, what a sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in.
Scathlock 02-12-08, 05:47 PM	If humans define right and wrong, what a sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in. Just curious: Who else should define what's right or wrong if not human beings? Not totally disagreeing with you on the sorry state of affairs, though from what I've read of your above posts we might disagree on the why they are in a sorry state and what that sorry state is.
GothicDan 02-12-08, 07:43 PM	If humans define right and wrong, what a sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in. If you consider rational liberation sorry, then it is indeed a sorry state for you. I'll go back to oogling other boys and trying to crack the mysteries of the universe, now.
Another Gnome 02-12-08, 07:54 PM	Who else should define what's right or wrong if not human beings? Well, we could always let natural selection run its course. You know, weeding out all those not willing or capable enough to promote their own choice of genepool above all others. It has been tried before with varying degrees of success (it worked like charm 30 000 years ago when we managed to wipe out an entire competing species and took over the planet, and not so well over the last century when the only species to annihilate was our own) but people just keep going with their man-made definitions of right and wrong. Kenzuki is absolutely right, human beings are a sorry lot. I mean, we're probably the only life-form in the universe stupid enough to risk the lives of our healthiest members in order to secure resources and safe mating ground for the sick and the weak. If there ever is an alien invasion on Earth, those guys are going to die laughing at us while sending their crippled and terminally ill combat troops to the front lines. :)
GothicDan 02-12-08, 08:00 PM	but people just keep going with their man-made definitions of right and wrong Daniel's versions of right and wrong. Right: DNE. But Daniel still would promote certain types of behavior. Wrong: DNE. But Daniel still would not promote certain types of behavior.
Another Gnome 02-12-08, 08:02 PM	Oh come on, isn't it enough we have Lord Karsus with delusions of grandeur, now you too? :P
GothicDan 02-12-08, 08:03 PM	My boy, I'm the original egoist around here.
Stigger 02-12-08, 08:06 PM	Right and wrong are artificial constructs... unless one presumes a currently unprovable divinity in operation, it doesn't really matter, except in the context of how their definition forms a kind of 'societal contract' that keeps us from disintegrating into a barbaric state. As to humans being a sorry lot, well, everything depends on your perspective. Just so long as we don't go harkening back to some Golden Age that probably only existed in our collective imaginations... the world is only getting better from previous generations, we just hear about the bad crap more than our predecessors ever did so it seems far worse than it actually is.
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 08:27 PM	Oh come on, isn't it enough we have Lord Karsus with delusions of grandeur, now you too? :P -Delusions? Delusions!? My boy, I'm the original egoist around here. -Pshhh...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-12-08, 09:19 PM	MY BOY? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYsXww-3_6A) How very fitting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgKiOIMj2PU&feature=related) that someone should say that!;)
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 12:17 AM	MY BOY? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYsXww-3_6A) How very fitting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgKiOIMj2PU&feature=related) that someone should say that!;) -Oh, you...:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 02:10 PM	-Oh, you...:P :rofl: I couldn't resist.
Kiioro 02-13-08, 04:21 PM	I commented about same-sex marriage because it seems natural from my perspective: a hedonistic race -like any kind of elf- to see same-sex couples as taboo is difficult to imagine. I see Ms. Silverhand's opinion as quite agreeable: it may even be encouraged for males and discouraged for females. Kind of what happens in our society today, look at adult entertainment and typical male fantasies: "OMG, two girls kissing, how HAWT" and all that kind of ado, yet, it's not reciprocal for male homosexuality/bisexuality*. For Drow it could just be the other way around. Now, with them, since females are the blatantly stronger, leading sex, they'd see as falling for another female as weak but watching two males make out as hot. *Yes, I know about all the shounen-ai fuss, my girlfriend loves that kind of thing. Also, I don't sponsor any kind of self-righteousness about what is acceptable and what isn't, it's just how I imagine those societies.
Kenzuki 02-13-08, 04:51 PM	I say we need to kill Lolth and free the Drow from her decadant behavior so that they may once again know the joys of goodness. Oh and take her stuff!;)
The_Shaman 02-13-08, 05:41 PM	Nah, they've got the evil, self-serving backstabbing *******-ery perfected to an art form. It just won't be the same with them becoming just another bland elven subrace...
Kiioro 02-13-08, 05:47 PM	Nah, they've got the evil, self-serving backstabbing *******-ery perfected to an art form. It just won't be the same with them becoming just another bland elven subrace... And don't forget the 99% drow PCs (somehow managing to be still a "minority") that rebel against their cruel race in an angst-filled manner, preferably with dual scimitars. Bleeeeh.
Khaelieth 02-13-08, 06:07 PM	But drow do not marry, so I hardly think divorce would be applicable... But elves marry, wonder where the drow stopped marrying... Hmmm...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 07:04 PM	I say we need to kill Lolth and free the Drow from her decadant behavior so that they may once again know the joys of goodness. Oh and take her stuff!;) So get on board with Eilistraee and her followers.:)
Kenzuki 02-13-08, 07:15 PM	So get on board with Eilistraee and her followers.:) Elistraee is not good enough, plus she runs around dancing naked at night. No wonder she can't beat her mom. No, we need a massive attack on Lolth to kill her. I say we hire Cyric to do it. He killed Mystra easy enough so I'm sure if we give him something nice he can just run in there and cut her up ten ways to sunday. Then he can take the Drow as his servants and they can still be the evil assassins and what not. Except now they can be equal to each other and won't have to put up with freaken spiders anymore!! Or Shar could be their new Goddess. I think they would like either of them more given how badly Lolth treats them.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 07:17 PM	I say we need to kill Lolth and free the Drow from her decadant behavior so that they may once again know the joys of goodness. Oh and take her stuff!;) -Meh, screw the Drow. And don't forget the 99% drow PCs (somehow managing to be still a "minority") that rebel against their cruel race in an angst-filled manner, preferably with dual scimitars. Bleeeeh. -Funny how that works, eh?
Storm_Silverhand 02-13-08, 08:11 PM	Heya, And don't forget the 99% drow PCs (somehow managing to be still a "minority") that rebel against their cruel race in an angst-filled manner, preferably with dual scimitars. Bleeeeh. *sigh* Due to a lack of emoticons, I could not tell if you were being sarcastic or joking or not. If you were, ignore what follows. If every single person played in exactly the same Realms with same single DM, then maybe you could argue that Good PC Drow aren't a minority. But since this is not the case, even a group of six players playing a group of Good Drow, would still be an exceptional minority when you take into account the entire population of the Drow in the world. Plus, people playing Good drow are not always playing Drizzt-a-likes. When I've played drow, they've nearly always been a spellcaster of some kind, either a cleric of Eilistraee (or some other good deity), or a Wizard or Sorcerer (one of my current characters is a CN drow female Warlock/Sorcerer (aiming for Eldritch Theurge), my intention is that at some point in the future, her alignment will move to CG.)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 08:21 PM	Heya, *sigh* Due to a lack of emoticons, I could not tell if you were being sarcastic or joking or not. If you were, ignore what follows. I took it to be sarcasm.:)
Kenzuki 02-13-08, 08:32 PM	I've always wanted to play a Drow bard, a non-evil one. One of those albino drow even.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 08:44 PM	I took it to be sarcasm.:) -It was obviously sarcasm. It started dripping out of my monitor.
Kiioro 02-13-08, 10:49 PM	Indeed, it was sarcasm, Ms. Silverhand, just as L. Karsus and Ms. Fathomlin pointed out. I'm just not very fond of emoticons usually. Kenzuki, if I ever, EVER got to see a so-beautiful-it's-offensive, nude female drow dancing around happily, I'd be pretty much converted into following her, goddess or not. Khaelieth, if you take R.A. Salvatore's works as canon for what drow culture is like, I'd also believe that your everyday drow wouldn't marry. There aren't mentions of the word "spouse", "husband", "wife" or with similar meaning in the Dark Elf trilogy as far as I remember; drow usually had something more akin to a "mate in turn" concept and changed from one to another without much ceremony.
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 11:06 PM	Khaelieth, if you take R.A. Salvatore's works as canon for what drow culture is like, I'd also believe that your everyday drow wouldn't marry. There aren't mentions of the word "spouse", "husband", "wife" or with similar meaning in the Dark Elf trilogy as far as I remember; drow usually had something more akin to a "mate in turn" concept and changed from one to another without much ceremony. -The difference between how Drow culture is depicted in R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf Trilogy (Drizzt) and Elaine Cunningham's Starlight and Shadows Trilogy (Liriel) is quite noticable.
Storm_Silverhand 02-13-08, 11:55 PM	Heya, Indeed, it was sarcasm, Ms. Silverhand, just as L. Karsus and Ms. Fathomlin pointed out. I'm just not very fond of emoticons usually. The trouble is, without emoticons you can never tell if someone is joking, being sarcastic or not. It's a weakness of communication over the internet, and it usually pays to assume that people won't know you're joking unless you give them some indication you are. (Exaggeration is not a good way to let people know you're being sarcastic or joking either... I've seen some of the wildest exaggerations come from people who utterly believe what they're saying.)
Kiioro 02-14-08, 12:14 AM	Yes, I've also read comments that I instantly thought of as jokes and weren't so, I wouldn't blame you, Storm. Lord, I will try to find those books (no easy feat here, I haven't found them -even translated-, and right now that I'm moving, I'm not in an economical position to get them shipped from the US), Cunningham's work seems to be promising enough. On the marriage topic, I'd probably conclude that Drow don't marry in the most traditional way of humankind's currently largest religions (which imply that it'd be one male with one female, intended to be a permanent and almost unbreakable bond). But even for us, the word "marriage" does not imply a global standard for every single nation and individual, as it has been noted in this same thread. So, maybe to answer the "Do Drow marry?" question, we'd have to define what marriage is for Drow society, just like we're trying to do now. Or maybe, define what is "marriage" for you in your Forgotten Realms' context, and based upon that, we can boil it down to a satisfactory conclusion.
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 12:28 AM	Lord, I will try to find those books (no easy feat here, I haven't found them -even translated-, and right now that I'm moving, I'm not in an economical position to get them shipped from the US), Cunningham's work seems to be promising enough. -Well, you don't actually have to read them, but I was just pointing out how different their emphasis' are.
Kiioro 02-14-08, 12:47 AM	I will try anyway, I'm about to finish the Avatar series and I want more FR novels (I'm neglecting the Malleus Maleficarum for now, it's kind of a heavy read, so FR it is). I need to have a book ready to be read before I finish the one currently in process.
Kenzuki 02-14-08, 06:55 AM	Indeed, it was sarcasm, Ms. Silverhand, just as L. Karsus and Ms. Fathomlin pointed out. I'm just not very fond of emoticons usually. Kenzuki, if I ever, EVER got to see a so-beautiful-it's-offensive, nude female drow dancing around happily, I'd be pretty much converted into following her, goddess or not. Khaelieth, if you take R.A. Salvatore's works as canon for what drow culture is like, I'd also believe that your everyday drow wouldn't marry. There aren't mentions of the word "spouse", "husband", "wife" or with similar meaning in the Dark Elf trilogy as far as I remember; drow usually had something more akin to a "mate in turn" concept and changed from one to another without much ceremony. See, I'de think she was either stark raving mad or just one of them hippy elves. Then I'de probably yell to her to put some clothes on.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 01:51 PM	Heya, The trouble is, without emoticons you can never tell if someone is joking, being sarcastic or not. It's a weakness of communication over the internet, and it usually pays to assume that people won't know you're joking unless you give them some indication you are. Heck, I would even add that sometimes even emoticons don't work in conveying a joke (there's always someone out there who will take you literally unless you clearly spell out that it's a joke, which sorta kinda defeats the purpose of making a joke).:)
Storm_Silverhand 02-14-08, 05:18 PM	Heya, Heck, I would even add that sometimes even emoticons don't work in conveying a joke (there's always someone out there who will take you literally unless you clearly spell out that it's a joke, which sorta kinda defeats the purpose of making a joke).:) Heh... Well that's true enough. I sometimes frustrate my friends and family by responding seriously to something I know is a joke... Usually to show how stupid the joke is. :) I don't know why, but it amuses me.
Khaelieth 02-15-08, 03:54 PM	On the marriage topic, I'd probably conclude that Drow don't marry in the most traditional way of humankind's currently largest religions (which imply that it'd be one male with one female, intended to be a permanent and almost unbreakable bond). But even for us, the word "marriage" does not imply a global standard for every single nation and individual, as it has been noted in this same thread. So, maybe to answer the "Do Drow marry?" question, we'd have to define what marriage is for Drow society, just like we're trying to do now. Or maybe, define what is "marriage" for you in your Forgotten Realms' context, and based upon that, we can boil it down to a satisfactory conclusion. We've concluded they don't marry ages ago, closest thing is patrons, who usually get killed when the matron's fed up with 'em, Black Widow style. Some are allowed to live, though it's rare. What I'm wondering about now is where the drow stopped marrying, as they probably did when they were surfacers.
Another Gnome 02-15-08, 04:17 PM	We've concluded they don't marry ages ago, closest thing is patrons, who usually get killed when the matron's fed up with 'em, Black Widow style. That happens "usually" among the upper class of Lolth-dominated drow societies. Jane Drow the Mushroom Farmer in the meanwhile is not going to kill her partner as a rule because a) males don't grow on trees, b) trees don't grow in the Underdark, and c) drow commoners can't afford a platoon of armed guards in the bedroom.
msatran 02-15-08, 07:45 PM	Heya, *sigh* Due to a lack of emoticons, I could not tell if you were being sarcastic or joking or not. If you were, ignore what follows. If every single person played in exactly the same Realms with same single DM, then maybe you could argue that Good PC Drow aren't a minority. But since this is not the case, even a group of six players playing a group of Good Drow, would still be an exceptional minority when you take into account the entire population of the Drow in the world. Plus, people playing Good drow are not always playing Drizzt-a-likes. When I've played drow, they've nearly always been a spellcaster of some kind, either a cleric of Eilistraee (or some other good deity), or a Wizard or Sorcerer (one of my current characters is a CN drow female Warlock/Sorcerer (aiming for Eldritch Theurge), my intention is that at some point in the future, her alignment will move to CG.) Well, in my game, the maximum number of drow any player can have that are alive at one time is ONE. The race is supposed to be rare as PC's, but everyone wants one. Still, there aren't that many, because my players stick with the old lore, where there isn't a good aligned drow under every rock. Examples: CG Fighter 1/Ranger 2/Cleric 7/Warpriest 4 (Tymora) -This one's mine. A PC converted an NPC, and then when people had some 8th level characters, and needed another character, they said 'You should play that character." Me: BAWK? Sure... Druid 4 (Silvanus)
GothicDan 02-15-08, 10:24 PM	See, I'de think she was either stark raving mad or just one of them hippy elves. Then I'de probably yell to her to put some clothes on. Reminder: the Gauls and the Celts.
Kenzuki 02-16-08, 07:28 AM	Reminder: the Gauls and the Celts. Heathens
Storm_Silverhand 02-16-08, 07:53 AM	Heya, Well, in my game, the maximum number of drow any player can have that are alive at one time is ONE. The race is supposed to be rare as PC's, but everyone wants one. There, you see? It's as easy as saying "NO". :) DMs need backbones of adamantite. :fight!: I don't see why people are so bothered by what happens in other people's games.
Another Gnome 02-16-08, 08:03 AM	Player Characters are supposed to be rare, and yet in most games every player seems to have one... :smirk:
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 08:48 AM	Player Characters are supposed to be rare, and yet in most games every player seems to have one... :smirk: -How paradoxical. -Get 'em, Dan.
Khaelieth 02-16-08, 09:22 AM	Reminder: the Gauls and the Celts. Gauls were just Celts who lived in France and assorted close regions. The Celts' "lands" were from the Balkans through to Ireland and Spain, roughly. But yeah, do drow commoners marry?
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:24 PM	Gauls were just Celts who lived in France and assorted close regions. The Celts' "lands" were from the Balkans through to Ireland and Spain, roughly. Well, the Balkans were Dacian and Thracian, too. The Gauls seemed to have settle in the Isles ~1st C. BCE, if I recall. Of course, in Roman accounts, they distinguish the Brittish Celts from the mainland Gauls they met in battle, so that's why I made the distinction. As to Spain... Well, we also have the Iberians, which we have popping up all of the way to the east, closer to the Black Sea, too, as well as in Hispania. I actually asked my Latin Classics professor about this, and he mentioned it might be a good senior thesis... In any event, my point was, nudeness is hardly a sign of incompetence as an individual, as the Gauls and the Celts showed to the Romans. (Who, technically, were also heathens by Christian standards, and they wore clothes.)
Khaelieth 02-16-08, 01:55 PM	Well, the Balkans were Dacian and Thracian, too. The Gauls seemed to have settle in the Isles ~1st C. BCE, if I recall. Of course, in Roman accounts, they distinguish the Brittish Celts from the mainland Gauls they met in battle, so that's why I made the distinction.. Agreed. Did you know the Celts actually made better armour and weapons? They used far superior metals. Alexander the Great's journal has quite a bit on Alexander's meeting(s) with the Celts, as they swore an oath of allegiance to him, where they swore to be allies until the Heavens fell down, the Ocean rose up etc. They were apparently only scared of the Heavens falling down ;p As to Spain... Well, we also have the Iberians, which we have popping up all of the way to the east, closer to the Black Sea, too, as well as in Hispania. I actually asked my Latin Classics professor about this, and he mentioned it might be a good senior thesis.... Celtiberians was the classification l heard. In any event, my point was, nudeness is hardly a sign of incompetence as an individual, as the Gauls and the Celts showed to the Romans. (Who, technically, were also heathens by Christian standards, and they wore clothes.) True that. Sadly, nowadays, it's socially unacceptable to wander down the road wearing nothing but a strange hat of sorts (unless it's St. Paddy's Day!)
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:02 PM	Agreed. Did you know the Celts actually made better armour and weapons? They used far superior metals. I know that the Romans based some of their arms on Celtic designs. :) And, well, I'm not sure of the quality of metal in the Italic peninsula, so it's hard to quantify any statements about how indicative metal quality was on each respect culture. Alexander the Great's journal has quite a bit on Alexander's meeting(s) with the Celts, as they swore an oath of allegiance to him, where they swore to be allies until the Heavens fell down, the Ocean rose up etc. They were apparently only scared of the Heavens falling down ;p Oohh. I need to get a copy of his journal, translated, of course, until I can learn Greek (I'm assuming Macedonian dialect). Celtiberians was the classification l heard. I know the Romans referred to them as such during the Punic Wars, at least. I'm currently reading a book on Carthage. Another fun ethnic reference was Libyphoenicians. :)
Khaelieth 02-16-08, 02:17 PM	Oohh. I need to get a copy of his journal, translated, of course, until I can learn Greek (I'm assuming Macedonian dialect). l read an excerpt in Cambridge ancient history, well worth if you can get your paws on them! They are incredibly good!
angelofsorrow66 02-16-08, 03:48 PM	[QUOTE=Khaelieth;14896063]Yeah, fair enough... I'd be ****** off if I was a woman! My ex had one big fault - her breasts got tender once a month much to my dismay. Earned a lot of punches. Still does. [/Angelofsorrow66] And women say IM a perv
The_Shaman 02-16-08, 08:22 PM	Well, the Balkans were Dacian and Thracian, too. The Gauls seemed to have settle in the Isles ~1st C. BCE, if I recall. Of course, in Roman accounts, they distinguish the Brittish Celts from the mainland Gauls they met in battle, so that's why I made the distinction. I'm not sure about the Balkans, but I suppose there might have been Celtic settlements in the westernmost part, given that the tribes classified as Illyrian were probably far from homogenous. Then again, I've seen the Celts being discribed as various tribes that shared a linguistic bonds, so it's possible that their influence extended a lot more than I'm aware of.
Khaelieth 02-17-08, 07:12 AM	I'm not sure about the Balkans, but I suppose there might have been Celtic settlements in the westernmost part, given that the tribes classified as Illyrian were probably far from homogenous. Then again, I've seen the Celts being discribed as various tribes that shared a linguistic bonds, so it's possible that their influence extended a lot more than I'm aware of. Well, as I said above, the Celts, according to Cambridge ancient history, were quite dominant in the Balkans around 350 B.C., otherwise why would Alexander even bother mentioning them? And GD, you'd have to learn ancient Greek to read Alexander's journal.
Khaelieth 02-17-08, 07:13 AM	[QUOTE=Khaelieth;14896063]Yeah, fair enough... I'd be ****** off if I was a woman! My ex had one big fault - her breasts got tender once a month much to my dismay. Earned a lot of punches. Still does. [/Angelofsorrow66] And women say IM a perv Excuse me? A "look but can't touch" relationship would never work! Then you might as well be just friends!
Kenzuki 02-17-08, 07:22 AM	http://sgthook.com/melblue2.gif Ye can take our bagpipes, but ye can never take our makeup!
Khaelieth 02-17-08, 07:25 AM	Which wasn't even historically correct :( Persians invented bagpipes, oddly enough. BUT DO DROW COMMONERS MARRY!?
Another Gnome 02-17-08, 08:09 AM	There are most definitely drow couples who cohabit out of mutual interest. Whether or not that fits your definition of marriage is a different matter.
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 08:30 AM	BUT DO DROW COMMONERS MARRY!? -Only if you want them to. ;)
GothicDan 02-17-08, 11:53 AM	Yeah, I'm not sure if any Drow would 'marry' by modern, Christian definitions. That being said: BOO BRAVEHEART.
Khaelieth 02-17-08, 12:05 PM	Yeah, I'm not sure if any Drow would 'marry' by modern, Christian definitions. That being said: BOO BRAVEHEART. Braveheart was a good film tbh! Just not historically accurate! But Drow would presumable just be partners then?
Kiioro 02-17-08, 12:33 PM	As this thread has evolved (straying or not), I've come to a conclusion that works for me: Drow sometimes get into a relationship that they may address as "marriage". Gender doesn't have anything to do with it, it would just alter the flavor (and make it more complicated in some cases, but it's not forbidden). Said marriage, though, does not work like human marriage (in D&D or modern times): it is just a business venture that will end when one doesn't find enough benefits or "disappears". Some more venturous drow may even get emotionally attached, but wouldn't show it for the weakness it represents. In some social castes it may be more permanent than the others, as a partner isn't easy to come by; not everyone has the political/economical power of a Matron to solve personal problems with a simple hand motion.
The_Shaman 02-17-08, 05:42 PM	Braveheart was a good film tbh! Just not historically accurate! But Drow would presumable just be partners then? If they know what's best for them, yeah. Drow society being what it is, I think it would be a bad idea for both partners if they advertise their connection.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 05:51 PM	I would like to point out, going by what Ed Greenwood has said about the percentage of drow who secretly revere Eilistraee, that there probably are drow couples in the Underdark who are married for reasons other than "convenience" (though of course, it'd be kept secret).
Kenzuki 02-17-08, 07:21 PM	Two movies were made about Wyatt Earp. Wyatt Earp with Kevin Costner and Tombstone with Kurt Russel. WE was more historically accurate, but Tombstone was such a better movie. I propose we kill off Lolth and bring the drow back into Elven society. I think Elistraee can be their new goddess. Honestly, why would you WANT to serve Lolth? She doesn't care about you, treats you like crap, and makes you kill your own family.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 08:20 PM	I propose we kill off Lolth and bring the drow back into Elven society. I think Elistraee can be their new goddess. Honestly, why would you WANT to serve Lolth? She doesn't care about you, treats you like crap, and makes you kill your own family. From what I understand, those who truly serve Lolth do so for the power it brings.
Kiioro 02-17-08, 10:54 PM	I agree with Ms. Fathomlin, the drow needed power and Lolth gave it to them under her rules. What started like a trickle, millenia later, it'd be like trying to stop a river from flowing. Suppose you find the absolutely perfect politic system. Somehow, I wouldn't count on your country following you, by now, too many interests depend on the status quo and there are many established rules and powerful people that would not just agree. To halt it without something akin to a revolution that would destroy the whole society you live in would be nigh impossible.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:09 AM	I propose we kill off Lolth and bring the drow back into Elven society. -#$%& that. Screw them. We don't want them.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 08:39 AM	Hellz no we don't.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 09:01 AM	-The Elven Council has spoken.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 09:02 AM	You're both racist.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 09:03 AM	-Obviously not. Drow are Drow. What's so hard to comprehend? None of that PC bull applies in the lands of Faerūn.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 09:28 AM	-Obviously not. Drow are Drow. What's so hard to comprehend? None of that PC bull applies in the lands of Faerūn. The surface elves are just as evil as the drow are.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 09:29 AM	The surface elves are just as evil as the drow are. -Sure, that's why they are CG, while Drow are NE or CE. :rolleyes:
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 09:38 AM	-Sure, that's why they are CG, while Drow are NE or CE. :rolleyes: The victor always writes the history.... At least the Drow aren't hypocrites about their evil. I'm sure if we dug deep enough we'd find true examples of elven evil.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 09:50 AM	The victor always writes the history.... -Of course, the Monster Manual is written from an unlying, omniscient viewpoint. At least the Drow aren't hypocrites about their evil. -Nor are the general Elven populace, who are CG, not NE/CE. I'm sure if we dug deep enough we'd find true examples of elven evil. -And, at the same time, there no digging needed to find true examples of Drow evil.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 12:00 PM	If the elves were truly good they would try to redeem their brothers and free them from the tyrannical grasp of Lolth.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 12:06 PM	If the elves were truly good they would try to redeem their brothers and free them from the tyrannical grasp of Lolth. -Corellon Larethian condemned them. Thus, they are irredeemable. They made the willfull choice to traffic with such malevolent powers.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 12:09 PM	-Corellon Larethian condemned them. Thus, they are irredeemable. They made the willfull choice to traffic with such malevolent powers. Why did they do it though? If Corellon was so good, why leave him for another? Why didn't Corellon instead redeem them instead of condemning them? Did he not have the power to do so, and if so why follow one such as he?
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 12:11 PM	Why did they do it though? -They sought power. If Corellon was so good, why leave him for another? -See above. Why didn't Corellon instead redeem them instead of condemning them? -They were caught in Lolth's web of lies and intrigue, and thus were too far gone to be redeemed as a whole. Did he not have the power to do so, and if so why follow one such as he? -No deity is omnipotent in a pantheistic setting such as the Forgotten Realms.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 12:55 PM	Sometimes, there's too much collateral damage in trying to redeem someone so far fallen. I'd rather not lose Elven lives in trying to needlessly redeem Drow. And those who ARE redeemed? They have Eilistraee, who Corellon openly supports.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 12:57 PM	Why don't the Seldarine just invade the Demonweb Pits and kill Lolth? I mean it worked for the dwarven gods.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 12:58 PM	Sometimes, there's too much collateral damage in trying to redeem someone so far fallen. I'd rather not lose Elven lives in trying to needlessly redeem Drow. -Yes. While an unrelated topic, the argument by those who are against the United States' continued presence in Iraq, which, while I don't agree with, I understand.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 12:59 PM	Why don't the Seldarine just invade the Demonweb Pits and kill Lolth? I mean it worked for the dwarven gods. Wait. So we can't kill Drow, but we CAN kill Lolth? What about hypocrisy? Also, with Lolth currently a Greater power, I don't think taking her on in her home domain would be very healthy for the Seldarine, even if Corellon is still more powerful. Deific conflicts aren't simple "He has a higher BAB than she does, so..."
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:06 PM	Why don't the Seldarine just invade the Demonweb Pits and kill Lolth? -Because doing so isn't in anyone's best interests? -And what Dan said above.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 01:08 PM	Wait. So we can't kill Drow, but we CAN kill Lolth? What about hypocrisy? Also, with Lolth currently a Greater power, I don't think taking her on in her home domain would be very healthy for the Seldarine, even if Corellon is still more powerful. Deific conflicts aren't simple "He has a higher BAB than she does, so..." That's not hypocrisy. Lolth is evil incarnate. Drow are mortals and as Drizzt and Liriel have shown can be good if they are given the opportunities. Lolth is an abomination that needs to be destroyed once and for all. If the Seldarine were such pillars of elven righteousness they would destroy her at all costs and redeem their lost children. Let Elistraee become the new Patron of Drow I say!
GothicDan 02-18-08, 01:09 PM	Lolth is not evil incarnate. She was originally Araushnee, a member of the Seldarine, which implies she was once not Evil. And note that you said ELVEN righteousness. Elven morals are NOT the same as yours. Banishment (what happened to Lolth) is far greater punishment than outright death for a member of the Tel'Quessir.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:10 PM	Lolth is evil incarnate. -Incorrect, because in times past, she was not evil. If the Seldarine were such pillars of elven righteousness they would destroy her at all costs and redeem their lost children. -As just stated, there is more to lose than gain, should such a silly action be taken. And, again, there is nothing to redeem. Let Elistraee become the new Patron of Drow I say! -The Drow don't want Eilistraee. What does she offer that they want?
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:12 PM	And note that you said ELVEN righteousness. Elven morals are NOT the same as yours. Banishment (what happened to Lolth) is far greater punishment than outright death for a member of the Tel'Quessir. -To Ar'Tel'Quessir more than Teu'Tel'Quessir. The Sun Elves are much more community oriented, while the Moon Elves are 'wanderers'. To a Moon Elf, the penultimate punishment would be imprisonment, while, to a Sun Elf, the penultimate punishment would be banishment from the community at large.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 01:14 PM	I ment that she has the portfolio of evil in the Realms. So basically what you guys are saying is that Corellon doesn't want to clean up the mess he allowed by his ex wife right? Killing Lolth and placing Elistraee in her place would only benefit the Seldarine. The drow would come around eventually when they realized that Lolth was just a divine ***** who didn't care about them.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 01:17 PM	I ment that she has the portfolio of evil in the Realms. No, she doesn't. So basically what you guys are saying is that Corellon doesn't want to clean up the mess he allowed by his ex wife right? He's performed Tel'Quessir justice. Killing Lolth and placing Elistraee in her place would only benefit the Seldarine. Your real world politics are showing. The drow would come around eventually when they realized that Lolth was just a divine ***** who didn't care about them. They originally weren't Evil. They willingly turned Evil, even those who did not worship Lolth. Why do you think they'll suddenly all become good, en masse? I'm getting dangerously close to mudslinging at people who obviously don't have full knowledge of the situations at hand, yet who insist on making broad, uninformed generalizations. I may have to bow out soon.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:19 PM	So basically what you guys are saying is that Corellon doesn't want to clean up the mess he allowed by his ex wife right? -Lack of action is not a lack of caring. Killing Lolth and placing Elistraee in her place would only benefit the Seldarine. -And, the resulting chaos/death/suffering would as well? The drow would come around eventually when they realized that Lolth was just a divine ***** who didn't care about them. -Or not. Racism, by and large, came to an end in the United States of America in the 1960s. However, it is ingrained in the collective psyche of the country, to the point that organizations such as the KKK exist, and will continue to exist, and institutionalised racism seems to be a problem that cannot be countered.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 01:38 PM	Actually Dan, you're wrong. According to Faiths and Pantheons Lolth has the following portfolios. Assassins, chaos, darkness, drow, evil, spiders.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 01:39 PM	You said in Faerun. That's wrong. She does not belong to the Faerunian pantheon, but rather the Drow/Anti-Seldarine pantheon.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:41 PM	-Indeed, the entire notion of a 'Faerūnian' pantheon is something of a misnomer. Lolth, like Eilistraee, do not belong. They are members of the Anti-Seldarine, and Seldarine, respectivley.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 01:43 PM	That being said - she is still not evil incarnate, for reasons we have demonstrated above.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 01:46 PM	Sorry, by Faerun I ment the Realms. Evil incarnate is a figure of speech anyway. I still think that the way Lolth treats the Drow is a waste.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 01:51 PM	A waste...? What's that supposed to mean, exactly? Many of the Drow - most - worship Lolth willingly, and they picked up her worship WILLINGLY during/before the Crown Wars, as well as the worship of Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun. And The Realms refers to Faerun. The Realms Below is the Underdark.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 02:36 PM	I still think that the way Lolth treats the Drow is a waste. -How should she, an evil, capricious goddess, treat them?
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 02:44 PM	I don't know, better? I mean one has to really question her goals or mentality when she has her own servants killing each other left and right. She's not going to get anything done that way.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 02:47 PM	I don't know, better? I mean one has to really question her goals or mentality when she has her own servants killing each other left and right. She's not going to get anything done that way. -By maintaining the status quo in Drow cities, she is empowering herself. A deity thrives off of their portfolios, and Lolth, as evidenced by the fact that she was able to transition herself to a greater deity, certainly does so.
Kenzuki 02-18-08, 02:49 PM	-By maintaining the status quo in Drow cities, she is empowering herself. A deity thrives off of their portfolios, and Lolth, as evidenced by the fact that she was able to transition herself to a greater deity, certainly does so. I thought Lord Ao demanded that all deities serve their followers and look after them and stop treating them like crap? Sounds alot like Lolth to me.
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 02:57 PM	I thought Lord Ao demanded that all deities serve their followers and look after them and stop treating them like crap? Sounds alot like Lolth to me. -No. Ao commanded the deities of Abeir-Toril to pay attention to their worshippers, as in the past, they were ignored by many deities, in favor of 'divine plotting', and what have you. Lolth is actually an exception here, as she has always paid close attention to her worshippers, as she micromanages Drow society, more or less, since leading them to their dimise. -Lolth is actually setting an example that other deities should follow, more or less. She is active in the lives of her followers.
Khaelieth 02-18-08, 06:53 PM	Kenzuki, the drow follow her because they want to. She brings them power, they bring sacrifices. And the Seldarine would probably be butchered in the Demonweb Pits, but as Mystra's death showed, we can't be sure. And what happened if Lloth killed the Seldarine? Suddenly Malar, Auril and the others swoop in and turn the tide. l believe Elminster states why he doesn't just teleport in and kill Szass in the the FRCS, much the same applies to this.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 08:27 AM	For some reason, I imagine Kenzuki could care less what Elminster says, and considers that explanation a bunch of hogwash. Correct me if I'm wrong. Please, Bob, let me be wrong.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 08:39 AM	Kenzuki, the drow follow her because they want to. She brings them power, they bring sacrifices. -That's it. Correct me if I'm wrong. Please, Bob, let me be wrong. -Leave Bob out of this.
Jiggawha 02-19-08, 10:15 AM	I don't know, better? I mean one has to really question her goals or mentality when she has her own servants killing each other left and right. She's not going to get anything done that way. she cares for them, by promoting survival of the fittest to the extreme, which strengthens the race in a long run
The_Shaman 02-19-08, 04:18 PM	That is debatable. She does opt for a survival of the fittest ideology, and places personal power over all. This leads to the drow, afaik, having a disproportionate amount of higher-level characters in their cities as they combine the elven longevity and drive that puts even humans and dwarves to shame. The drow way of life is a heck of a crucible, and those who emerge from it are as driven, tenacious, and adaptable as anyone you'd meet. Individual drow are powerful, and the ways of Lloth drive them to even greater accomplishments. However, the same atmosphere usually prevents the drow from acting with much unity, and means even the powerful should constantly devote some of their attention to preserving their place. Lloth, apparently, believes that this would lead to a net gain - that the raw power individual drow attain and the form of meritocracy (with a drow view on what merits are) this byzantine environment creates would eventually bring more good than bad to her race. She has a point: drow soldiers, priests, mages and rogues are some of the toughest, nastiest, most cunning and most skilled enemies you don't want to have. With all that said, I'd say her way is a net loss for the drow - but a very minor one. The drow often waste their strength in internal squabbles, thankfully for everyone else. However, a grave enough insult or threat can get them together behind a strong leader, and their combined might is terrifying. Ask the gnomes of Blidgenstone, if you need details.
Kenzuki 02-19-08, 04:26 PM	Well I suppose it makes sense. I mean the allies could have killed Hitler but they feared one of his more intelligent generals would have taken over. Still, I know I wouldn't serve a Goddess like Lolth who sees me as nothing more than a mere plaything for her sick and twisted ways. I think if I were a drow I'de leave the Underdark and go to the surface. I think I'de serve Hoar or something.
The_Shaman 02-19-08, 04:49 PM	Oh, if it were a buyer's market Lloth wouldn't last long. However, she basically has a monopoly - or nearly so - on power in most drow cities, and her priestesses have both the number and the power to make sure they hold on to their position. On the other hand, the drow raids and atrocities (which she eagerly sponsors) make them feared and reviled by all other races - thus making sure that few drow would ever think about leaving. It's not a bad scheme, really - using the absolute power she has in most drow societies push them in such a direction that no one wants to leave.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 05:33 PM	Still, I know I wouldn't serve a Goddess like Lolth who sees me as nothing more than a mere plaything for her sick and twisted ways. I think if I were a drow I'de leave the Underdark and go to the surface. I think I'de serve Hoar or something. -That's not an option. Serve Lolth or die. Lolth, who protects you from the evil Faerie evil, and the evil Realms Above.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 05:35 PM	Well I suppose it makes sense. I mean the allies could have killed Hitler but they feared one of his more intelligent generals would have taken over. Still, I know I wouldn't serve a Goddess like Lolth who sees me as nothing more than a mere plaything for her sick and twisted ways. I think if I were a drow I'de leave the Underdark and go to the surface. I think I'de serve Hoar or something. The Drow don't think that Lolth only uses them for her own ends - and I don't think Lolth thinks that herself, either. That being said, Hoar is one of the deities I'd never even consider serving. He's minuscule, and the thought of serving vengeance is just abhorrent to me. There's no self-growth or improvement in that.
Khaelieth 02-19-08, 05:48 PM	Well I suppose it makes sense. I mean the allies could have killed Hitler but they feared one of his more intelligent generals would have taken over. Still, I know I wouldn't serve a Goddess like Lolth who sees me as nothing more than a mere plaything for her sick and twisted ways. I think if I were a drow I'de leave the Underdark and go to the surface. I think I'de serve Hoar or something. His generals had a go at it though! He was a tough ol' b*stard, that fellow! Aside from Drizzt, I doubt the any drow would sink to worshipping a human god they've probably not heard of. It's so ingrained in the psyche that they are better, only the odd good drow would do it, imo. And Lloth probably doesn't think of her worshippers as playthings, she needs them. But she is primarily a chaotic godess (having been tanar'rii and all). As for the drow, they've probably not heard of all that many other gods. Some of the more common Underdark ones, yes, but an Untherite god? Doubt it. Probably haven't heard of him. A drow god of vengeance would be Kiaransalee, which I doubt is female only anyway.
Kenzuki 02-19-08, 06:09 PM	The Drow don't think that Lolth only uses them for her own ends - and I don't think Lolth thinks that herself, either. That being said, Hoar is one of the deities I'd never even consider serving. He's minuscule, and the thought of serving vengeance is just abhorrent to me. There's no self-growth or improvement in that. Some people don't care about self-growth or improvement. Some people have lost everything they hold dear and the only thing left to them is vengeance. Wither it be against a wicked king who destroyed your village, or the noble paladin who slew your wicked brother. Vengeance and Retribution are very strong emotions and not to be dismissed. Vengeance is a dish best served cold....with some fava beans and Chianti.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 07:10 PM	-People who can't control their emotions are, to put it lightly and mildly, silly. We (Humans) are creatures of intelligence, who rationalize and think before acting, not beasts, who's hormones and primal wants dictate what they do.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 07:12 PM	And there's only nothing left if you give up. Otherwise, there's always hope. The battle's not lost until you throw in the towel, so to speak. Yes, I'd very much follow Lathander, among other deities. But he'd be one of my patron gods. :)
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 07:26 PM	Yes, I'd very much follow Lathander, among other deities. But he'd be one of my patron gods. :) -I probably would, too. Lathander, Oghma, Torm, and Helm, if I had to pick Human deities.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 07:29 PM	My 'core' would be Lathander, Azuth, Oghma, with healthy doses of Mystra, Lliira, Sune, Sharess, Selune, Shar, Talos, and the Elemental Lords. Helm, I was never a big fan of.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 07:41 PM	-The law is the law, and you follow the law, that's that.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 07:43 PM	So you're referring to Tyr, there? ;)
Kiioro 02-19-08, 07:44 PM	Actually, GothicDan, I believe that this could be an interesting thread (if it doesn't exist already): Who would YOU worship? On topic: Many worship Lolth due to a reason already well stated (I'm agreeing): It's already ingrained in them. For example, if you go to a small town in... say... anywhere in the real world, where they're pretty much isolated, and there, people have been catholic / buddhist / musulmans / pick-a-religion for generations. What makes you think they'd rebel against their religion? It's what they've known and has kept them together spiritually for as far as anyone can remember. The same would apply to any other community that is isolated enough and has had the same beliefs for centuries (if not millennia, as with the drow). Evenmoreso if the religion is as cutthroat as believing in Lolth, where her authority is not questionable at all and drow are indoctrinated from birth to serve her. It's hard to break a paradigm for a single individual, now, for an entire culture...
GothicDan 02-19-08, 07:46 PM	Actually, GothicDan, I believe that this could be an interesting thread (if it doesn't exist already): Who would YOU worship? It comes up a lot. Usually, the more 'informed' people of the Realms (not to be offensive to anyone) end up saying - "I'd worship a bit of every deity dependent on the situation, but some of my preferred patrons would be..." In other words, as is proper in a truly pluralist polytheistic setting like FR.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 07:50 PM	So you're referring to Tyr, there? ;) -No, Helm. Duty, law, responsibility. It's all the same thing, in my non-student 'line of work'. What makes you think they'd rebel against their religion? It's what they've known and has kept them together spiritually for as far as anyone can remember. -Especially when the punishment for doing so is death...Or worse...
Kenzuki 02-19-08, 07:51 PM	The Gods that I would follow are as follows based on what I know of them. Lathander Ilmater Hoar Helm Jergal Maybe Torm.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 07:52 PM	-Torm...He's another one I'd worship.
Kenzuki 02-19-08, 07:54 PM	Oh yeah, and Bhaal if I was evil.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 07:59 PM	I'd probably worship Torm and Tyr, too. Ilmater, definitely not. If I was evil, I'd probably worship very much the same gods, though I'd also add in Bane or Gargauth, and focus more on Myrkul/Shar/Talos. And of course it'd deal a lot with where I was raised.
Kiioro 02-19-08, 08:09 PM	I'd worship Sharess above all (or Sune if I had never heard of her), Tymora being in second place (and Sune would go here if I had heard of Sharess). And lip service to many god/dess ocassionally, in certain situations.
Kenzuki 02-19-08, 08:23 PM	I'd probably worship Torm and Tyr, too. Ilmater, definitely not. If I was evil, I'd probably worship very much the same gods, though I'd also add in Bane or Gargauth, and focus more on Myrkul/Shar/Talos. And of course it'd deal a lot with where I was raised. I wouldn't worship Tyr, as he's a big hypocrite who killed Helm.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 08:25 PM	I'm sorry, I don't know what you're referring to. In my Realms, WotC never happened.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-19-08, 08:33 PM	In my Realms, WotC never happened. :rofl: I like a lot of deities, and if I were a polytheist living in the Realms, I would, as Dan said, likely revere many (most?) of them. I'm probably "Lawful Good" in real life, and I do appreciate deities like Torm and Tyr (though Tyr, as a character, doesn't "move" me that much). As you can tell from my avatar, I love Sune and would probably be a devotee of hers. I also like Sharess, because I'm a cat lover (:) ) and I believe earthly pleasures can be fulfilling (and I don't just think "sex" when I think of pleasures of the body--"sensual pleasure" has a very, very wide range). It's hard for me to list, as I like many of the gods (especially the good ones), and I can appreciate them even if some of them may not excite me that much.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 08:34 PM	-Oh, and of course, Everyone Loves Karsus...
GothicDan 02-19-08, 08:35 PM	Not me! Rino, you're a proper Realmsian. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-19-08, 08:36 PM	Not me! Rino, you're a proper Realmsian. ;) Thanks, I should hope so.;) I love Karsus.:)
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 08:36 PM	Not me! -Sure you do.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 08:36 PM	I love Karsus.:) -That's the spirit! -All together now!
GothicDan 02-19-08, 08:39 PM	Sorry, I'm too busy loving Lathander.
Storm_Silverhand 02-19-08, 11:14 PM	Heya, Actually, GothicDan, I believe that this could be an interesting thread (if it doesn't exist already): Who would YOU worship? On topic: Many worship Lolth due to a reason already well stated (I'm agreeing): It's already ingrained in them. For example, if you go to a small town in... say... anywhere in the real world, where they're pretty much isolated, and there, people have been catholic / buddhist / musulmans / pick-a-religion for generations. What makes you think they'd rebel against their religion? It's what they've known and has kept them together spiritually for as far as anyone can remember. The same would apply to any other community that is isolated enough and has had the same beliefs for centuries (if not millennia, as with the drow). Evenmoreso if the religion is as cutthroat as believing in Lolth, where her authority is not questionable at all and drow are indoctrinated from birth to serve her. It's hard to break a paradigm for a single individual, now, for an entire culture... The thing you're forgetting is that there's no such thing as a religion in isolation in Faerun. Even if a village has traditionally had <insert deity here> as their patron, and has only one temple/shrine to that deity, there's bound to be a few people who will worship another deity or three. For example: Eilistraee is in the habit of sending dream visions to all drow. It is highly unlikely that a drow has not heard of her, though I'm sure the priestesses of Lolth would do their best to paint her in as negative a light as they can. Other deities probably do the same. Drow scholars are also likely to know of other deities, and it is not unknown for Drow to venerate other deities - just look at any Drow city that isn't controlled by the temple of Lolth... Plus, big Lolthite cities, such as Menzoberrenzan, are anything but isolated! (Big cities simply can't exist without trade.) IMHO, Drow worship Lolth out of fear, followed closely by the desire for power.
Kiioro 02-20-08, 12:15 AM	Point taken, Ms. Silverhand. And thanks, I didn't know that Eilistraee sent dreams to all drow. So, I reformulate my past comment, taking this into account: I somehow view "isolation" still in Drow societies. Yes, they do see Duergar and other races, trade with them, but every Drow child is indoctrinated. They view those dwarves and whatnot as something slightly above animals because they can speak Undercommon. They must surely view their gods as laughable at best; you might not want to argue with the priestess that tells you so because she might whip the hell out of you if you don't agree. So, as you said, a main factor is fear, yes. Lolth's dogma says it so, "fear is as strong as steel, while love and respect are soft and useless". It also says "raise children to praise and fear Lolth". It's conditioning, by the time a drow is old enough to thoroughly think for him/herself, the faith towards Lolth is already engraved in their minds and hearts. It's just like thinking "winning is good". Most people wouldn't think otherwise (nor even stop to question that), because they were taught that since they were children, they surely asked themselves if it was worth, but society itself reassured the fact that it is good countless times while growing up... and later it isn't an issue to think about, it is something that everybody knows and should try to achieve (and those who think otherwise are usually ostracized, or in the Drow fashion, killed or made driders, "convert or destroy nonbeliever Drow"). A few will question their beliefs, but they will surely be, I repeat, a few. They usually would know better than to trust those 'bad omen dreams from the despicable Eilistraee' (painted in bad light, as you said), I'm sure even most of those scholars that know a good deal about other gods will study them just like we study, for example, Quetzalcóatl. A fascinating mythical god of a foreign culture; I don't know any scholar that reveres Quetzacóatl, although there might be someone. Of course, exceptions do exist. Every quote was from Faiths and Pantheons' Lolth, 'Dogma' section (p. 41)
Khaelieth 02-20-08, 07:20 AM	Some people don't care about self-growth or improvement. Some people have lost everything they hold dear and the only thing left to them is vengeance. Wither it be against a wicked king who destroyed your village, or the noble paladin who slew your wicked brother. Vengeance and Retribution are very strong emotions and not to be dismissed. Vengeance is a dish best served cold....with some fava beans and Chianti. http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip248.html "Orcs killed my family! Twice!" One of the reasons your family must be mostly alive in my games. Tolkienesque tragedies are good, if anyone's read the Children Of Hśrin.
Zanan 02-20-08, 09:42 AM	Heya, For example: Eilistraee is in the habit of sending dream visions to all drow. It is highly unlikely that a drow has not heard of her, though I'm sure the priestesses of Lolth would do their best to paint her in as negative a light as they can. Other deities probably do the same. I can officially state that I haven't received such a dream. :weep: BTW, I'd always be careful with general remarks like the above. Given that the drow society is more often than not strictly monotheistic - and in a Early Middle Ages Spanish inquisition way that is - it is quite unlikely that large parts of the population - i.e. those not in contact with religious text et al - will have heard anything but superstitious rumours or the like, rarely something that will wet an average's drow appetite. And Eilistraee is not that busy either. But that's just MHO.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-20-08, 08:38 PM	http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip248.html "Orcs killed my family! Twice!" Funny! :rofl:
Kenzuki 02-20-08, 08:43 PM	To be honest though, I'de be more like a follower of the Silver Flame (from Eberron) or The Holy Light (from Warcraft) than any of the gods of Faerun I think. I'de probably either be a Fighter, Wizard, or Cleric.
GothicDan 02-20-08, 10:20 PM	I could never worship a religion which posited a sort of transcendental philosophical 'rightness' like the above two. It's one of the reasons I really dislike aspects of Plato and Socrates. Faerun in general takes on a more animistic approach to its pantheon, like the Classical pantheon, or the Celts or so on for most Indo-European ones (Aryan India, not Vedic) - there are abstract forces out there at the whim of things we're ignorant of, and it's best to live our lives by maneuvering through the hoops as best as possible. So, Zeus, you won't smite me if I sacrifice this bull? Cool. You'll give me the power to conquer my enemies if I dedicate temple in your name on the battleground? Awesome!
Storm_Silverhand 02-20-08, 11:56 PM	Heya, To be honest though, I'de be more like a follower of the Silver Flame (from Eberron) or The Holy Light (from Warcraft) than any of the gods of Faerun I think. I'de probably either be a Fighter, Wizard, or Cleric. I'd be interested to know what you think of the Naaru in World of Warcraft. Paladins of the Blood Elves gain their divine powers from a Naaru they captured and are draining of energy... It gives lie to the divine origin of the Light, because if the Blood Elven Paladins are getting their power from the Naaru, it stands to reason that everyone else who worships the Light is too. (So that specifically excludes Night Elves and Tauren, who worship Elune and the Earth Mother respectively.)
GothicDan 02-21-08, 08:13 AM	Mmm, Blood Elves. Even if I hate the name.
Kenzuki 02-21-08, 08:47 AM	Heya, I'd be interested to know what you think of the Naaru in World of Warcraft. Paladins of the Blood Elves gain their divine powers from a Naaru they captured and are draining of energy... It gives lie to the divine origin of the Light, because if the Blood Elven Paladins are getting their power from the Naaru, it stands to reason that everyone else who worships the Light is too. (So that specifically excludes Night Elves and Tauren, who worship Elune and the Earth Mother respectively.) The Naaru are not the source of the Holy Light. THe Holy Light is basically Christianity meets the Force from Star Wars. Chris Metzen the main mastermind behind the lore is a big Star Wars fan. Infact he actually compared Paladins and Death Knights to Jedi Knights and Sith Lords. The whole thing behind the Light is that you become one with everything so to speak. When you help someone else you are in turn strengthing the world and by doing so you are making yourself stronger. The Holy Light has three basic principles that guide it. They are known as the Three Virtues. These virtues - respect, tenacity and compassion - are each defined into a principle and a lesson. Respect The first virtue taught is respect. While the Holy Light teaches that awareness of the self and the universe is a goal, one must also see the connection between others and the universe. Destroying other's happiness and severing other's connections with the universe is not serving the world's well being, and therefore not your own. The practitioners of the Holy Light are not naive, however, and understand that trial, conflict, war, and suffering do happen; but they strive to make the universe a better place in spite of these hindrances. Tenacity The second virtue is tenacity. The adherence to this virtue is, incidentally, the part of training under the Holy Light that weeds out the unfaithful, as true dedication takes years. Fresh-faced acolytes often lose hope and the true meaning of the Holy Light when they realize that it takes a lifetime to serve the philosophy. The world is much bigger than one lone soul; and while the world can change a soul in a day, it takes much more time to change the world. Only through tenacity can a servant of the Holy Light hope to affect the universe. If some young students feel like this is an impossible task, others take heart in the realization that if you truly believe there is a connection between the self and the universe, one cannot help but affect the other, no matter the size. Affecting the world can include anything from teaching and instilling hope in others to joining with other like-minded individuals to work together to create a bigger change. Compassion After the first two concepts are mastered, the student can take on the final virtue: compassion. The connection between the self and the universe is strong, but it still is only one connection. If a follower of the Light serves another to increase his happiness, his bond with the universe grows stronger. The happiness he receives by helping someone also strengthens himself and the universe, and he is able to affect the universe even more. Compassion is perhaps the most powerful - and most dangerous - virtue. If someone is too compassionate, he can give help where none is needed - or wanted. This oversight can hinder one's growth and happiness. Some helpers can be awkward and do more harm than good with their actions, increasing the suffering and unhappiness in the world. This is why compassion is taught last; only the wise and compassionate can identify who is truly in need and who can grow on their own. The Light has another side though, The Forgotten Shadow. The Forgotten Shadow is the exact opposit of the Holy Light. It's like the sum total of all the negative energy in the Universe. Beings like the Undead and demons are literally BATHED in the Shadow and this is why the Holy Light burns their flesh and causes them pain. Think of the Naaru as beings who have become so intune to the Light they have literally shed their fleshiness and have become something akin to "light elementals" so to speak. The Blood Elves are getting their power by sucking the Naaru's energies out. Though in the next patch the Blood Elves discover their prince's betrayle and pledge to fight him. I suspect they will become true paladins then as the Naaru is freed. I personally think the Holy Light concept is waaaaay more cool and more powerful than merely worshipping some hack like Zeus. The Light is not confined to any one world or plane. It is a universal force that can be tapped into by any of the faithful. The Church of the Silver Flame reminds me alot of the Church of the Holy Light, so that's why I like it. The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow is pretty cool too though. It's version of the Three Virtues are Respect, Tenacity, and Power. Some say there is a fourth virtue as well, the Virtue of Death. Some consider it a fourth while most consider it a sub edition of power. The WCRPG books are awesome sources for these kinda things. I've always been a Warcraft fan, since Warcraft II back in the day:D
Khaelieth 02-21-08, 09:12 AM	The WCRPG books are awesome sources for these kinda things. I've always been a Warcraft fan, since Warcraft II back in the day:D Ah, youngsters... Played Warcraft since Warcraft 1. Warcraft 3 was too manga/anime whatever for my taste. Orc necromancers rocked Warcraft 1!
GothicDan 02-21-08, 11:20 AM	Weren't they Warlocks? WC 3 had Necromancers.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-21-08, 12:19 PM	To be honest though, I'de be more like a follower of the Silver Flame (from Eberron) or The Holy Light (from Warcraft) than any of the gods of Faerun I think. I'de probably either be a Fighter, Wizard, or Cleric. Interestingly enough (if somewhat off-topic), the Holy Light in Warcraft is something of a retcon, as the humans in Warcraft 1 and 2 were mentioned as being worshippers of "God" (see the Orcs and Humans manual, as well as the Church in Warcraft 2--clicking on it, IIRC, produced a sound that said "Deo gracias". The primary human religion wasn't always godless.
Storm_Silverhand 02-21-08, 04:36 PM	Heya, The Naaru are not the source of the Holy Light. THe Holy Light is basically Christianity meets the Force from Star Wars. Chris Metzen the main mastermind behind the lore is a big Star Wars fan. Infact he actually compared Paladins and Death Knights to Jedi Knights and Sith Lords. Well, the fact that Blood Elf paladins are getting their power from the Naaru, tells me that that is the source of their "light power"... But if it is as you say and really is like the Force, I guess that makes sense... The Light has another side though, The Forgotten Shadow. The Forgotten Shadow is the exact opposit of the Holy Light. It's like the sum total of all the negative energy in the Universe. Beings like the Undead and demons are literally BATHED in the Shadow and this is why the Holy Light burns their flesh and causes them pain. I gather this is where Shadow specced priests get their power? How about Warlocks? I thought they tapped the Twisting Nether for their power, as well as the demons the summon. Think of the Naaru as beings who have become so intune to the Light they have literally shed their fleshiness and have become something akin to "light elementals" so to speak. The Blood Elves are getting their power by sucking the Naaru's energies out. Though in the next patch the Blood Elves discover their prince's betrayle and pledge to fight him. I suspect they will become true paladins then as the Naaru is freed. Well they still are the source of the Blood Elf paladin's power - which means that you don't need to adhere to the tenants of the Light to be able to use its power. I'd like to know where you got that information about the next patch, because I haven't heard anything to that effect (and that is something rather big, I'd expect it to be all over the forums by now... Edit: just checked the patch notes, and there's nothing in there past a new faction and quest hub dealing with the Sunwell Isle in the Outlands) (Besides which, I thought the Blood Elves had already discovered their prince's betrayal, since there's two faction in Shattrath - the Aldor (Draenei) and the Scryers (Blood Elves who have betrayed Kael'thas on the strength of the vision of their leader, hence the faction name). Or are you talking the Blood Elves back in Azeroth? If so, I wonder if they'll change the "scene" where two Blood Elves try to get the message out that something's amiss, and then a priest is summoned and mind controlls the pair into spouting "the party line"?) The WCRPG books are awesome sources for these kinda things. I've always been a Warcraft fan, since Warcraft II back in the day:D Ah, so that's where you got your information from. :) You know what's funny? I was dreaming of the WCRPG books this morning (before I woke up, that is) for some reason... Very strange. (Yeah, you can tell I'm a nerd... I even dream nerd dreams... :P)
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 05:11 PM	-Let's not forget that there is no such thing as 'Light Side' and 'Dark Side'. There is only the Unifying Force (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Potentium).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-21-08, 06:29 PM	-Let's not forget that there is no such thing as 'Light Side' and 'Dark Side'. There is only the Unifying Force (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Potentium). That's BS propaganda and you know it! Just kidding.:P ;)
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 06:54 PM	That's BS propaganda and you know it! -That's the short sighted, single minded Jedi talking.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-21-08, 06:58 PM	-That's the short sighted, single minded Jedi talking. Not being knowledgable about the Star Wars setting the way I am knowledgable about the Realms setting, I'll just have to take your word on that.:P :D ;)
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 07:28 PM	Not being knowledgable about the Star Wars setting the way I am knowledgable about the Realms setting, I'll just have to take your word on that.:P :D ;) -It's like what we were talking about at Starbucks. :)
Kenzuki 02-21-08, 07:54 PM	Heya, Well, the fact that Blood Elf paladins are getting their power from the Naaru, tells me that that is the source of their "light power"... But if it is as you say and really is like the Force, I guess that makes sense... I gather this is where Shadow specced priests get their power? How about Warlocks? I thought they tapped the Twisting Nether for their power, as well as the demons the summon. Well they still are the source of the Blood Elf paladin's power - which means that you don't need to adhere to the tenants of the Light to be able to use its power. I'd like to know where you got that information about the next patch, because I haven't heard anything to that effect (and that is something rather big, I'd expect it to be all over the forums by now... Edit: just checked the patch notes, and there's nothing in there past a new faction and quest hub dealing with the Sunwell Isle in the Outlands) (Besides which, I thought the Blood Elves had already discovered their prince's betrayal, since there's two faction in Shattrath - the Aldor (Draenei) and the Scryers (Blood Elves who have betrayed Kael'thas on the strength of the vision of their leader, hence the faction name). Or are you talking the Blood Elves back in Azeroth? If so, I wonder if they'll change the "scene" where two Blood Elves try to get the message out that something's amiss, and then a priest is summoned and mind controlls the pair into spouting "the party line"?) Ah, so that's where you got your information from. :) You know what's funny? I was dreaming of the WCRPG books this morning (before I woke up, that is) for some reason... Very strange. (Yeah, you can tell I'm a nerd... I even dream nerd dreams... :P) 1. The Blood Elves lost their faith in the Holy Light after the Scourge rolled over Quel'Thalas and decimated their race. They came to believe that it had abandoned them and they became bitter. Chris Metzen said that it's not that the Light abandoned them "It's just they didn't know what they were doing." Without faith in it you can't normally use it. They found an answer in this by using the Naaru named M'uru. Blood Elves were taught a certain technique by Illidan Stormrage that allows them to suck the mana and magic from a being such as a demon, elemental, or in this case a naaru. Without the Naaru they couldn't use the powers of the Light because they lack the faith. However, in the next patch this will change. See link. http://blizzplanet.com/news/2097/ I enjoyed this news greatly, as I planned to write my Blood Knight's story simular to this and eventually make him a true Paladin. Even though the Scryers knew of Kael'Thas's betrayle the Blood Elves of Azeroth did not. This includes the Blood Knights. Now they know the truth and Kael'Thas has swooped in and stolen M'uru from them.
Storm_Silverhand 02-22-08, 05:30 PM	Heya, I enjoyed this news greatly, as I planned to write my Blood Knight's story simular to this and eventually make him a true Paladin. Even though the Scryers knew of Kael'Thas's betrayle the Blood Elves of Azeroth did not. This includes the Blood Knights. Now they know the truth and Kael'Thas has swooped in and stolen M'uru from them. 'Twil be interesting to see what happens... I even made a shiny new level 1 blood elf paladin and parked her for after the 2.4 patch comes out. Had to delete one of my alts to do it too. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 05:37 PM	-It's like what we were talking about at Starbucks. :) Yes, I remember that vividly. :) I'm rather fond of the Light Side/Dark Side theory though, probably out of nostalgia. After so many years, saying that there is no dual-natured Force is a little like saying Darth Vader was actually Luke's second cousin or something. *laughs* But again, that's coming from someone who likes the setting but is hardly an expert, and who also doesn't follow the "canon" storyline.
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 06:14 PM	Yes, I remember that vividly. :) I'm rather fond of the Light Side/Dark Side theory though, probably out of nostalgia. After so many years, saying that there is no dual-natured Force is a little like saying Darth Vader was actually Luke's second cousin or something. *laughs* -See, the Force doesn't inherently have a good pole, a bad pole, and grey in-between. The Force simply is. The user makes it what it is. If one taps into 'the dark side' to do something good, is that a good act, or a bad act? If one taps into the 'light side' to do something bad, is that a bad act, or a good act? Like guns, the Force is a tool that is not inherently good, nor inherently bad. It can be used in bad ways and good ways, depending on how it is applied by the user. -Now, mind you, the 'light side', and the 'dark side' is a fine explanation when you need to condense things into a few two hour movies. But, when you factor in the rest of the Expanded Universe, and consider things as if they were a living, breathing universe, rather than a snapshot of the universe, during the movies, the duology of the doesn't really cut it. Thus, I've embraced the potentium. -Of course, your opinions on the matter are perfectly fine and valid as well. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 06:23 PM	-See, the Force doesn't inherently have a good pole, a bad pole, and grey in-between. The Force simply is. The user makes it what it is. If one taps into 'the dark side' to do something good, is that a good act, or a bad act? If one taps into the 'light side' to do something bad, is that a bad act, or a good act? Like guns, the Force is a tool that is not inherently good, nor inherently bad. It can be used in bad ways and good ways, depending on how it is applied by the user. -Now, mind you, the 'light side', and the 'dark side' is a fine explanation when you need to condense things into a few two hour movies. But, when you factor in the rest of the Expanded Universe, and consider things as if they were a living, breathing universe, rather than a snapshot of the universe, during the movies, the duology of the doesn't really cut it. Thus, I've embraced the potentium. -Of course, your opinions on the matter are perfectly fine and valid as well. :) That's good to know.;) Anyway, the idea of the Force being a neutral tool seems to make sense, as well. It isn't something I've thought too much about, to tell the truth. Someday I'd like you to tell me some more about the Star Wars Holiday Special.:P
Lord Karsus 02-22-08, 06:37 PM	It isn't something I've thought too much about, to tell the truth. -There's a bunch of good books on the matter that I've read. Also, d6 (and later d20) Star Wars was my first real introduction into the world of Role Playing. The stuff that goes on when you have the same character for 4-5 years, playing once a week for anywhere between 4 to 6 hours, watching your character grow, kinda sticks with you. March is going to be Ulio Lo'Moff's (Male Twi'Lek Jedi Sentinel 14) 9th birthday. :) Someday I'd like you to tell me some more about the Star Wars Holiday Special.:P -Sure, I'd like that...as long as we don't talk about the Star Wars Holiday Special. :shifty: :cool:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-22-08, 06:40 PM	-There's a bunch of good books on the matter that I've read. Also, d6 (and later d20) Star Wars was my first real introduction into the world of Role Playing. The stuff that goes on when you have the same character for 4-5 years, playing once a week for anywhere between 4 to 6 hours, watching your character grow, kinda sticks with you. March is going to be Ulio Lo'Moff's (Male Twi'Lek Jedi Sentinel 14) 9th birthday. :) Aww, tell him I wish him a Happy 9th Birthday then! -Sure, I'd like that...as long as we don't talk about the Star Wars Holiday Special. :shifty: :cool: OK, then we'll talk about how Luke Skywalker is nothing but a narrow-minded, intolerant bigot! :rofl:
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 11:15 AM	-See, the Force doesn't inherently have a good pole, a bad pole, and grey in-between. The Force simply is. The user makes it what it is. If one taps into 'the dark side' to do something good, is that a good act, or a bad act? If one taps into the 'light side' to do something bad, is that a bad act, or a good act? Like guns, the Force is a tool that is not inherently good, nor inherently bad. It can be used in bad ways and good ways, depending on how it is applied by the user. i'd say that tapping into the "dark side" is evil, as it will eventually corrupt. And if anyone derails my threads to talk about WoW (Warcraft's fine) there will be immediate cessation of chocolate rations.
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 11:41 AM	Aww, tell him I wish him a Happy 9th Birthday then! -It's still a little bit away. I'll let him know, though. :) OK, then we'll talk about how Luke Skywalker is nothing but a narrow-minded, intolerant bigot! :rofl: -Meh...Not necessarily a bigot, but certainly narrow-minded and intolerant. i'd say that tapping into the "dark side" is evil, as it will eventually corrupt. -Is it the 'dark side' corrupting the individual, or their own morals (or lack there of) wielding power corrupting them? The saying goes, "Power corrupts". We know that power, in and of itself, is simply a concept, with no inclination one way or the other. Like the Force. Thus, the Force does not corrupt an individual. The individual corrupts him/herself.
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 02:03 PM	-Is it the 'dark side' corrupting the individual, or their own morals (or lack there of) wielding power corrupting them? The saying goes, "Power corrupts". We know that power, in and of itself, is simply a concept, with no inclination one way or the other. Like the Force. Thus, the Force does not corrupt an individual. The individual corrupts him/herself. Just saying the end result is corruption; whatever does it is irrelevant if the product's always the same.
GothicDan 02-23-08, 02:11 PM	Meh...Not necessarily a bigot, but certainly narrow-minded and intolerant. I can't blame him, considering the era he grew up in...
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 04:00 PM	Just saying the end result is corruption; whatever does it is irrelevant if the product's always the same. -Well, no. Something that is inherently evil and something that is inherently neutral are vastly different. I can't blame him, considering the era he grew up in... -It's true, it's true. The Potentium did exist in the days of the Old Republic, though. The Jedi Council deemed it a heresy and a hoax, though.
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 04:44 PM	-Well, no. Something that is inherently evil and something that is inherently neutral are vastly different. Well, don't all those who use it turn to evil?
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 04:46 PM	Well, don't all those who use it turn to evil? -The 'Dark Side'? No. If you tap into it's power without seeking personal gain and power, it does not do anything to you. It's when you tap into it seeking power and personal gain- as most Sith do- that one becomes corrupted.
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 04:51 PM	Well, wasn't Anakin turned to the Dark Side because he wanted to help somebody? No SW expert, but i believe it doesn't matter if you do it for personal gain or not.
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 05:25 PM	Well, wasn't Anakin turned to the Dark Side because he wanted to help somebody? No SW expert, but i believe it doesn't matter if you do it for personal gain or not. -Anakin turned to the Dark Side because he wanted the personal power to control things as he saw fit- Padme's death, his mother's death, etc. The moral defects were already present. -I think we're getting a little too off-topic (not that that ever stops me). Let's wait a few valid posts, and then start again. :shifty: ;)
GothicDan 02-23-08, 06:11 PM	I wonder how those Drow honey moons go.
Another Gnome 02-23-08, 06:51 PM	It's not a good idea to moon your honey, drow or not.
The_Shaman 02-23-08, 06:59 PM	I suppose the Abyss might be a popular place.
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 07:08 PM	I wonder how those Drow honey moons go. -The passage in Tangled Webs (I believe), where Liriel lays with Fyodor is probably as close as we'll ever know. And, it didn't particularly end well for Fyodor. The Widow's Kiss, they called it...?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 07:54 PM	-It's still a little bit away. I'll let him know, though. :) Great! -Meh...Not necessarily a bigot, but certainly narrow-minded and intolerant. That makes him a bigot.:P
Lord Karsus 02-23-08, 08:07 PM	That makes him a bigot.:P -If you say so, who am I to argue.
GothicDan 02-23-08, 08:12 PM	It's not a good idea to moon your honey, drow or not. I think it is. It's then an open target!
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 08:15 PM	But drow commoners, do they generally stick together for life, or do they just drift back and forth? And are they monogame?
GothicDan 02-23-08, 08:17 PM	Well, even Elven lovers (unless they're Soulmates, or similar) tend to sort of drift apart and together. They often spend time 'apart' - not broken up, but not necessarily seeing each other or being monogamous. Elf love is different love. It's kind of like how gay love would work in a perfect world, like it never actually works in real life...
Shiftkitty 02-23-08, 08:27 PM	"Monogamous", although "monogame" is just as descriptive, considering you're sticking with only one game in town...;) In human societies, people have always tried to imitate social superiors in various ways. It's sort of an instinctive ass-kissing. I imagine in a social status oriented society similar to the drow there would be a degree of imitation if you were careful not to overstep your boundaries (unless you were damn sure you could overstep and stay there). In my game, drow commoners tend to be a bit more monogamous because the joining is generally one of survival. For example, in one drow commoner family in my Menzo, the matron (lower-case "m" so as not to offend the Matrons) has the mind for the market while her mate is a master tailor whose skill with the needle has netted them some very important clients. She's not likely to be dumping him any time soon. Should he ever get injured or too old to work the needle, she may reward him with a legitimate and comfortable retirement as a reward, especially because he's had the foresight to train his sons as apprentices to ensure the quality of the work. From there his only job would be to not become "inconvenient".
Khaelieth 02-23-08, 08:29 PM	"Monogamous", although "monogame" is just as descriptive, considering you're sticking with only one game in town...;) In human societies, people have always tried to imitate social superiors in various ways. It's sort of an instinctive ass-kissing. I imagine in a social status oriented society similar to the drow there would be a degree of imitation if you were careful not to overstep your boundaries (unless you were damn sure you could overstep and stay there). In my game, drow commoners tend to be a bit more monogamous because the joining is generally one of survival. For example, in one drow commoner family in my Menzo, the matron (lower-case "m" so as not to offend the Matrons) has the mind for the market while her mate is a master tailor whose skill with the needle has netted them some very important clients. She's not likely to be dumping him any time soon. Should he ever get injured or too old to work the needle, she may reward him with a legitimate and comfortable retirement as a reward, especially because he's had the foresight to train his sons as apprentices to ensure the quality of the work. From there his only job would be to not become "inconvenient". Yeah, monogame looked odd. But we've got the same idea about drow commoners=)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-23-08, 08:59 PM	Elf love is different love. It's kind of like how gay love would work in a perfect world, like it never actually works in real life... You mean like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB90Vkyqrts)
GothicDan 02-23-08, 10:39 PM	YES! WIN! Blond guy is hot.
MarkusTay63 02-24-08, 01:56 AM	The Dark haired guy is Bi - they have the same EXACT commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43uI5QL0dXs&feature=related) with a girl in the Phonebook (which airs on the regular 'network' channels, whereas that one I believe is cable-only). ;) Just read the coments on the first one.
GothicDan 02-24-08, 10:15 AM	He's not bi - he's probably a straight actor. It's amazing what actors can do as far as that sort of stuff goes. A lot of the guys from Queer as Folk? Straight. I couldn't do that. Unless I was drunk.
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 12:17 PM	-So, how 'bout those Drow? How 'bout that Force? It's cold out, eh?
GothicDan 02-24-08, 01:18 PM	It's pretty cold when the Drow are out in force.
Kenzuki 02-24-08, 03:45 PM	That was one of the most retarded commercials I have ever seen.:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 03:52 PM	That was one of the most retarded commercials I have ever seen.:rolleyes: -Check Youtube. I'm sure there are a bunch out there that are 90x worse, in terms of pure idiocy and failure to sell the product to the viewer.
GothicDan 02-24-08, 05:10 PM	Heck, if there's going to be a product whose commercial should appeal to sex, why not jeans? I mean, clothes are largely chosen due to sheer aesthetic appeal. Why not put hot guys in them? And mind you, I find 95% of commercials dumb. But I really think that putting hot members of either sex in clothing to sell it isn't a terrible travesty.
Shiftkitty 02-24-08, 05:29 PM	When have they not used sex to sell blue jeans? Or cars? Or shaving cream? Or hamburgers? Or anything else for that matter? I never saw the gay version of that commercial and we have satellite. Sex and D&D were hinted at in a WotC sponsorship of a women's roller derby meet. They used to have the picture on this website somewhere. It was a banner emblazoned with the D&D logo that read "Hot chicks in padded armor? We're there!" But back to the original topic, among commoner circles how do you think a marriage proposal, or its equivalent, goes down? I'm sure among noble circles it would be not unlike the neanderthal bonking on the head and dragging your new mate off to your cave (or flattening your house, destroying your former masters and being picked out as the spoils of war, or in the case of one session, being mistaken for an invited guest, getting dragged off to a back room, and accidentally rocking a preistess's world). But what about the common people? Even with the couple that I use most often in my Menzo sessions, I never gave much thought to how they made the arrangement.
Kenzuki 02-24-08, 06:05 PM	He is undoubtedly a devil in disguise. Sent here from the Nine Hells on the orders of Lady Fierna to corrupt the forum members of this place with his lewd videos of women dabasing themselves for the cheap enjoyment of the human male. Behold the evil that is sex! But I have prayed for thee, that in this thy time of weakness, thou mayest resist the temptations of the devils and rise above their petty schemes. For as the old proverb goes "Alis grave nil" or "nothing is heavy to those who have wings" So saith the Prophet.
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 06:10 PM	-Um....Yeah, Dan!
Khaelieth 02-24-08, 06:38 PM	When have they not used sex to sell blue jeans? Or cars? Or shaving cream? Or hamburgers? Or anything else for that matter? I never saw the gay version of that commercial and we have satellite. Sex and D&D were hinted at in a WotC sponsorship of a women's roller derby meet. They used to have the picture on this website somewhere. It was a banner emblazoned with the D&D logo that read "Hot chicks in padded armor? We're there!" But back to the original topic, among commoner circles how do you think a marriage proposal, or its equivalent, goes down? I'm sure among noble circles it would be not unlike the neanderthal bonking on the head and dragging your new mate off to your cave (or flattening your house, destroying your former masters and being picked out as the spoils of war, or in the case of one session, being mistaken for an invited guest, getting dragged off to a back room, and accidentally rocking a preistess's world). But what about the common people? Even with the couple that I use most often in my Menzo sessions, I never gave much thought to how they made the arrangement. Yeah, but tbh, neanderthals knew how to go about things! Taken a leaf or two out of their book myself (Not that they could even hold a pencil, much less write a book). Perhaps the commoners just see someone with more or less same social standing (and a skill or trait they like, strong babies ftw), ask if they're up for it and there you go.
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 06:42 PM	Yeah, but tbh, neanderthals knew how to go about things! Taken a leaf or two out of their book myself (Not that they could even hold a pencil, much less write a book). Perhaps the commoners just see someone with more or less same social standing (and a skill or trait they like, strong babies ftw), ask if they're up for it and there you go. -I'm sure it's the women doing the asking, though.
Khaelieth 02-24-08, 06:50 PM	-I'm sure it's the women doing the asking, though. If you want something, take it! Acredited to Lord Flasheart (You should know who he is)
Another Gnome 02-24-08, 06:52 PM	Female: "Hi. Are you healthy?" Male: "Yes." Female: "Does someone own you?" Male: "No." Female: "Wanna be my husband?" Male: "You got dental plan?" Female: "Yes." Male: "I'm all yours."
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 07:56 PM	Female: "Hi. Are you healthy?" Male: "Yes." Female: "Does someone own you?" Male: "No." Female: "Wanna be my husband?" Male: "You got dental plan?" Female: "Yes." Male: "I'm all yours." -If only life was that easy.
Shiftkitty 02-24-08, 08:26 PM	Male: "You got a dental plan?" Female: "I won't bash your teeth out if you say no." Male: "That's a start. Okay, I'm yours." :D Yeah, I suppose the commoners wouldn't mess around much since theirs is an issue of immediate survival. Maybe the female in my game wandered in to have something repaired, saw his handiwork, and offered him a deal. As they're NPCs who provide help for the PCs, I just never figured the PCs would care how they got together, only that they're a pair of reliable allies. (Well, reliable as far as drow go.) Therefore I never thought much about it. Now if they ask, I'll have an answer!
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 08:36 PM	Now if they ask, I'll have an answer! -It only took, what? 10+ pages?
GothicDan 02-24-08, 10:41 PM	For as the old proverb goes "Alis grave nil" or "nothing is heavy to those who have wings" So saith the Prophet. Poor translation. Alis is an archaic form of "alius" which just means "another, other", etc. Nil is a credible alternative for 'nihil' (nothing), though. And grave is adverbial for "heavy." I'm not sure where the wings are coming from.
Lord Karsus 02-24-08, 11:29 PM	I'm not sure where the wings are coming from. -Hooters, hopefully. Or Red Bull. It gives you wiiiings.
Shiftkitty 02-25-08, 01:07 AM	-It only took, what? 10+ pages? I found this thing called "a life", so I'm not constantly thinking about or hammering out the small details of my campaign. Just the threads of the story, the details of this family not being major enought to warrant my undivided attention.:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 01:07 PM	He's not bi - he's probably a straight actor. I was thinking the same thing.:) Glad you liked the commercial. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 01:10 PM	When have they not used sex to sell blue jeans? Or cars? Or shaving cream? Or hamburgers? Or anything else for that matter? I never saw the gay version of that commercial and we have satellite. I've seen it on TV many times, while watching Project Runway (one of the only TV shows I watch). It's a reality TV contest based around fashion design, and it apparently has a lot of gay male viewers, so a commercial like that during the show makes perfect sense. Not incidently, almost all of this year's male contestants were gay, too.:) There's a blog for that show called "Project Rungay." :rofl:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 01:16 PM	-So, how 'bout those Drow? How 'bout that Force? It's cold out, eh? The Force is strong...in me.;) As for drow...I've said pretty much everything I had to say about them.:) But, back to topic. There's plenty written about noble drow in general, including their relationships, but not as much written about common drow. I think there are secretive marriages or partnerships that have to do with with more than just convenience, thanks to the influence of Eilistraee. And as pointed out, not all drow communities are dominated by the priesthood of Lolth.
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 02:00 PM	The Force is strong...in me.;) -Right. Next time we see each other, I'll bring my Medichlorian testing kit, and check you out. And as pointed out, not all drow communities are dominated by the priesthood of Lolth. -Eh, I think plenty of their practices would be/are influenced by Lolthites, even if they aren't prevalent/powerful in the city.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 02:02 PM	-Right. Next time we see each other, I'll bring my Medichlorian testing kit, and check you out. They sell those? -Eh, I think plenty of their practices would be/are influenced by Lolthites, even if they aren't prevalent/powerful in the city. Well, yeah. I'm not saying drow communities are places of paradise.:)
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 02:10 PM	They sell those? -I'm sure. Think about some of the wacky things that are actually sold. Would a Star Wars Medichlorian Testing Kit really be that farfetched? Well, yeah. I'm not saying drow communities are places of paradise.:) -No, far from it.
Kenzuki 02-25-08, 02:10 PM	Poor translation. Alis is an archaic form of "alius" which just means "another, other", etc. Nil is a credible alternative for 'nihil' (nothing), though. And grave is adverbial for "heavy." I'm not sure where the wings are coming from. That is the motto of Pontifķcia Universidade Católica do Rio de Janeiro.
GothicDan 02-25-08, 02:18 PM	Oh. Catholic. The Catholic Church rather messed up Latin, so I can't say I'm surprised. No atheist agenda, there, either - it's an established fact among the Classical schools that Catholic Latin is.. Well, not proper Latin. It would probably be considered Vulgar Latin, like they once considered French or Spanish.
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 02:21 PM	Oh. Catholic. The Catholic Church rather messed up Latin, so I can't say I'm surprised. No atheist agenda, there, either - it's an established fact among the Classical schools that Catholic Latin is.. Well, not proper Latin. -Really? That's kind of...silly. Do you know if it was intentional, or...?
Kenzuki 02-25-08, 02:21 PM	I think in some cases Ecclesiastical Latin sounds better than Classical Latin. But no, I'm not Catholic. I do like Gregorian Chant though.:P
GothicDan 02-25-08, 02:24 PM	I like Gregorian Chanting, too. And I have Carl Orff's Carmina Burana on CD. *Nerd.* It was preserved by Romanian monks (the original lyrics).... But given that Romanian is basically 90% Latin now, those monks probably pronounced Latin better than those of the proper Italian Church area. I hate the 'ch' sound in Church Latin. Hate it, a lot. And it most likely wasn't directly intentional LK - the 'ch' for C's (really should be a hard K sound) were picked up from the evolution into Italian, for example.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 03:10 PM	-I'm sure. Think about some of the wacky things that are actually sold. Would a Star Wars Medichlorian Testing Kit really be that farfetched? *laughs* I guess not. If you ever get one, feel free to test it on me.:)
Kenzuki 02-25-08, 04:44 PM	*laughs* I guess not. If you ever get one, feel free to test it on me.:) *beep beep beep* You're testing positive for an parasitic infestation......You must be purged. *Beep Beep BFFFT ZZZAAAAP!*
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 04:49 PM	*laughs* I guess not. If you ever get one, feel free to test it on me.:) -EVen without one, I sense you are indeed strong in the force. *beep beep beep* You're testing positive for an parasitic infestation......You must be purged. *Beep Beep BFFFT ZZZAAAAP!* -They'll be no exterminations on my watch...Not her, anyway.
GothicDan 02-25-08, 04:53 PM	Rino is too pure and chaste to be exterminated. Do not raise the ire of the High Magi again.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 06:17 PM	Thank you guys--I'm so proud of my true defenders.;)
Khaelieth 02-25-08, 07:08 PM	Oh. Catholic. The Catholic Church rather messed up Latin, so I can't say I'm surprised. No atheist agenda, there, either - it's an established fact among the Classical schools that Catholic Latin is.. Well, not proper Latin. It would probably be considered Vulgar Latin, like they once considered French or Spanish. Well, it's about 1600 years (approximately) since Latin was last spoken - Would be odd if it didn't change! Also, who else even considered conserving it? Be glad we did something! ;p But why has this thread deviated that much from it's original purpose?!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 07:31 PM	But why has this thread deviated that much from it's original purpose?! Good question...I guess it's reached the point where everyone who had something to say said it already?
GothicDan 02-25-08, 07:53 PM	Well, it's about 1600 years (approximately) since Latin was last spoken - Would be odd if it didn't change! Also, who else even considered conserving it? Be glad we did something! ;p The Romanians. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 11:48 PM	Thank you guys--I'm so proud of my true defenders.;) -Any time. Well, it's about 1600 years (approximately) since Latin was last spoken. -Dies...I've broken the Latin drought! :P But why has this thread deviated that much from it's original purpose?! -As has been mentioned, a horse can only be beaten so much.
Kiioro 02-26-08, 12:04 AM	Well, it's about 1600 years (approximately) since Latin was last spoken That is one good reason to care less why isn't it spoken correctly now. It's not like they'll rise a few romans and they'd be aghast with what we've done with the language. Hell, they'd die again if they heard modern spanish or french. Slightly back on topic... What I'm wondering is: What happens to the children when the marriage/union ends? It's not like they have a complete legal structure where they have the divorce arrangements like ours do. So, what would happen to them? Who would get to keep them? Or maybe the male stays in the family, just not like the current consort? (Kind of what Zaknafein was in Matron Malice's family... but as L. Karsus said, the depictions differ). After all, each family should have at least one priestess dedicated to Lolth, according to her dogma. And I assume that that is respected in mainly-Lolth-worshipping cities.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 12:11 AM	Slightly back on topic... What I'm wondering is: What happens to the children when the marriage/union ends? It's not like they have a complete legal structure where they have the divorce arrangements like ours do. So, what would happen to them? Who would get to keep them? Or maybe the male stays in the family, just not like the current consort? (Kind of what Zaknafein was in Matron Malice's family... but as L. Karsus said, the depictions differ). -It depends on the status of the individual. Gromphe Baenre had a daughter with a commoner. When it suited his needs, he killed her, and brought his daughter to live in the Baenre complex, to teach her magic. What a piece of work Liriel turned out to be! ;) -Generally, I think this answer depends on status, and location. In a Lolthite city, the female is going to have the final say, unless the male has political power/connections. In a Vhaeraunian city, where females seem to be purposely made second-class, to demonstrate the power of Vhaeraun, the male would have the final say. In a city where neither were in power, whoever commanded more relative power would probably have the final say.
Kiioro 02-26-08, 12:24 AM	Because... if a male is left with one or two male children because they would be seen as "worthless" in a city where Lolth is revered, he'd have to somehow find a way -quick- to have a daughter so she'd be a priestess? Or would that not be seen as a "family" in drow society? I can imagine easier the concept of "marriage" from a drow point of view than "family".
Another Gnome 02-26-08, 06:06 AM	Drow (and surface elven) houses are essentially their core family units, and don't necessarily even share blood ties. If the parents go about their separate ways under peaceful terms, the children (and perhaps even the divorced parent) would simply remain with the house until they grow old and ambitious enough to start their own.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 10:55 AM	Hell, they'd die again if they heard modern spanish or french. I die every time I hear French, and go into a coma when I hear Spanish. And I've had 5 years of the latter. It's actually funny. A lot of my friends who know French, hate it. A Linguistics/Classics major friend of mine who's had quite a lot of French loves to make fun of it with me. Bloody Gauls.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 02:16 PM	I, uh, like French.:embarrass That's partly because I'm interested in a lot of French design houses (fashion, perfume, cosmetics).
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 03:19 PM	Rino is too pure and chaste to be exterminated. Do not raise the ire of the High Magi again. The Seraphim do not fear the likes of the pathetic elven spellcasters. We are above such mortal emotions. Being that this Rino is a follower of Sune I highly doubt that she is either pure or chaste.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 03:19 PM	You're allowed to like French, Rino. :) I'll consider to drool over German. Nnn, talk to me harder, baby.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 03:20 PM	The Seraphim do not fear the likes of the pathetic elven spellcasters. We are above such mortal emotions. Being that this Rino is a follower of Sune I highly doubt that she is either pure or chaste. Look, LK. He's trying to talk to us from within his tiny crystal prison. Isn't that cute? ;)
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 03:30 PM	By all that's holy! Is this a snowglobe!?
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 03:38 PM	Look, LK. He's trying to talk to us from within his tiny crystal prison. Isn't that cute? ;) -That's what happens when one not only insults Karsus, but his consort as well... -And Dan, too, I guess. :P
GothicDan 02-26-08, 03:39 PM	Ivanhoe taught me that love triangles can be quite dramatic.
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 03:50 PM	-That's what happens when one not only insults Karsus, but his consort as well... -And Dan, too, I guess. :P I was only statting a fact about the supposed "chastity" of the Sunite. It is not my fault your fragile human mind could not handle the truth of the matter. I maybe trapped momentarily within this snowglobe, but at least I'm not a hunk of bleeding rock in the woods. I can wait a few years to be freed. What is time to an Immortal?
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 04:05 PM	-What is this? The second time I've mentioned that I am not a Human, nor am I mortal? -'Round here, your post count, your join date, and your posts per day empower an individual. And, with that...
GothicDan 02-26-08, 04:08 PM	Also, your inherent Awesome Level. Yours is 1, Kenzuki.
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 04:11 PM	You were once human, now you are a dead godling who is a hunk of stone. But I do respect you Karsus. Far more than I could ever respect any mortal. You actually achieved godhood for a time. That is to be respected indeed. btw, does 1 mean I'm numba 1?
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 04:17 PM	-I'm not even going to bother, anymore...:rolleyes: -What was that, that someone said once, about starting out 1st level with a Holy Avenger?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-26-08, 04:24 PM	And why is my chasity considered such an interesting topic of discussion?:P
Kenzuki 02-26-08, 04:32 PM	And why is my chasity considered such an interesting topic of discussion?:P He called you pure and chaste. I merely remarked that you're a Sunite and well, they don't take vowes of chastity you know.
Another Gnome 02-26-08, 05:54 PM	-'Round here, your post count, your join date, and your posts per day empower an individual. And, with that... A-ha! Well, I may be no match to your post count, but combined with my previous incarnation, my join date is Decembruary 25th, 4003. Beat that!
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 05:58 PM	A-ha! Well, I may be no match to your post count, but combined with my previous incarnation, my join date is Decembruary 25th, 4003. Beat that! -That would give you negative levels...(The goal is to have an earlier join date) :shifty:
Another Gnome 02-26-08, 06:12 PM	Ah, but I still have 1995 years to post in stock before joining. When that day comes, I shall rule supreme! :evillaugh
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 06:39 PM	Ah, but I still have 1995 years to post in stock before joining. When that day comes, I shall rule supreme! :evillaugh -When that day comes, it certainly will be impressive.
Khaelieth 02-26-08, 07:21 PM	I die every time I hear French, and go into a coma when I hear Spanish. And I've had 5 years of the latter. It's actually funny. A lot of my friends who know French, hate it. A Linguistics/Classics major friend of mine who's had quite a lot of French loves to make fun of it with me. Bloody Gauls. Now you know what us proper English speaking countries think of USanian.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 07:53 PM	A bit.
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 10:54 PM	Now you know what us proper English speaking countries think of USanian. -Brooklynese = The truest form of English
Storm_Silverhand 02-27-08, 06:03 AM	Heya, He called you pure and chaste. I merely remarked that you're a Sunite and well, they don't take vowes of chastity you know. You do know that there's really no reason why a Sunite couldn't be chaste. Sune is the goddess of love, passion, and beauty - none of those things are sexual in nature in and of themselves.
msatran 02-27-08, 07:19 AM	Uh, for those who are not dictionaries, she can be as chaste as she wants. Chastity: Swearing never to marry. Celibacy: Swearing never to have sex. They are NOT the same thing, they never have been the same thing, and they never will be. The continuous conflation of those things is really torquing me off.
Another Gnome 02-27-08, 07:51 AM	You got the terms reversed. There are no celibacy belts. :P
Khaelieth 02-27-08, 08:54 AM	And neither terms are necessarily good things.
GothicDan 02-27-08, 09:13 AM	Just like Virgin in Latin didn't really mean "never having sex," necessarily.
Khaelieth 02-27-08, 09:19 AM	and gay doesn't mean homosexual (literally). "i'm not promiscous, i'm just plain unlucky" But do elves sleep with others before they get married? Presume they do?
GothicDan 02-27-08, 09:32 AM	I'd say yes.
Shiftkitty 02-27-08, 10:55 AM	I'll second it. We can't assume that elves have the same emphasis and social mores as humans. In my game, elves that choose to announce theirs as an exclusive relationship go through a bonding ceremony, but plenty of others have fine, healthy relationships without being exclusive. "It matters not what we do with our bodies, only what we do with our hearts" was a line I used once in a game to explain to a PC why elves could knock boots with whomever they wanted without threatening their other relationships.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 11:42 AM	Heya, You do know that there's really no reason why a Sunite couldn't be chaste. Sune is the goddess of love, passion, and beauty - none of those things are sexual in nature in and of themselves. I was thinking the same thing.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 11:44 AM	I'll second it. We can't assume that elves have the same emphasis and social mores as humans. And of course, sex before marriage generally isn't considered immoral among humans in the Realms, anyway.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 12:17 PM	But do elves sleep with others before they get married? Presume they do? -Yes.
Zireael 02-27-08, 02:34 PM	Agreed. I thought there was a bit of one-sex relations among the drow. Take Quenthel and Danifae in WotSQ.
Shiftkitty 02-27-08, 03:13 PM	I read some fanfic on another website that explored a relationship between Gromph and Dantrag. The logic made sense, I thought. Drizzt-haters might like it. I even managed to work it into my campaign with some small tweaks.
Another Gnome 02-27-08, 03:19 PM	But do elves sleep with others before they get married? Presume they do? We have canonical example of drow not being above sleeping with their blood relatives, and seeing how nobody besides Drizzt seemed to bat an eye at Vierna coming on to her brother, I would say it's more a rule than an exception that drow get thorough sex education before they ever leave home -- and it's not limited to theory. That said, racial supremacists as they are, even while incest (by modern standards) might be common, inbreeding among drow would still be seen as an abomination weakening the genepool. They simply don't think the way humans do, and I wouldn't be surprised if surface elves were little different in that respect. Heck, the tree-huggers might be even less caring about it. * * * Disclaimer: The above is speculation with reference to a work of fiction, and in no way reflects the poster's opinions on real-life physical relationships between immediate family members as governed by applicable laws.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 03:37 PM	We have canonical example of drow not being above sleeping with their blood relatives... -Surface Elves as well. King Zaor Moonflower and Queen Amlauril Moonflower were distant cousins. The bloodline was a lot more diluted than brother and sister, however. -The marriage of distant cousins was a fairly common thing, and still is, especially in noble/royal circles.
Shiftkitty 02-27-08, 09:39 PM	RE: Inbred elves (cue banjo music...) I wish I could remember where I read it, and I don't recall if it was canon or not, but there was a publication about elves that explained that elves (all subraces included) are immune to the effects of inbreeding because of the magical nature of their blood. It simply won't allow any harmful genetics to be passed along. I know it doesn't make any scientific sense, but it was an explanation. Argh! I hate it when I remember only snippets of info! Sounds like something that would have been in the GUCK.
GothicDan 02-27-08, 10:27 PM	That said, racial supremacists as they are, even while incest (by modern standards) might be common, inbreeding among drow would still be seen as an abomination weakening the genepool. Considering Elven genetics (phenotype, genotype) don't even work like humans' or most mammals known, I don't think we can make this scientific jump. Inbreeding actually INCREASES the bloodlines of rats in some ways. So not all mammals function the same genetically - and we have evidence of Elves not functioning the same as even other mammals. So, in this case, it's one of the things that I'd say to suspend the rules of real life science until we see something that supports its existence. (Like we've seen that gravity works, more or less normally other than via magic, on Abeir-Toril.)
Kiioro 02-27-08, 11:02 PM	I wouldn't imagine any adverse reactions towards elves who'd have sex before marriage. IIRC, in Races of the Wild, it said that elves would laugh about the concept of eternal love and such. So, swearing oneself completely to another being would be too much for a being that is related to creatures such as driads, nymphs and other fey... Usually, "saving" oneself for someone until marriage has a lot to do with a few things, depending on the beliefs or reasons behind it: To think that the person would be for the other, having sex with no one before and aiming to keep it like that until death. In some cultures, the fact that a man breaks the hymen (elasticity and other factors notwithstanding) means that the woman was pure enough to marry, for she wasn't allowed to lay with other men before that. Now, Forgotten Realms isn't exactly like our world, so those rules may not apply at all (just like only barbarians are illiterate in a kind-of-middle-ages setting). Maybe there are cultures in FR where it isn't condoned, it may have to do more with sanitary reasons, not spreading diseases and such. Or maybe some sexist reasons, but only in more isolated cultures... after all, it's more similar to modern times, where people in modern societies (usually) have the choice of having or not having sex before marriage. (Also, Dan, I do not like french... I tried, really tried to study it for 3 years. Yet, a language that threatens with spittle every time you speak isn't my kind of thing. I find portuguese way sexier. And I love spanish, but then again, it's my first language).
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 11:47 PM	Inbreeding actually INCREASES the bloodlines of rats in some ways. -How does that happen? IIRC, in Races of the Wild, it said that elves would laugh about the concept of eternal love and such. -Races of the Wild does not apply to the Forgotten Realms. The Elves of Faerūn often do find 'true, eternal love'.
Kiioro 02-28-08, 12:08 AM	AAAAGH, THE OFFICE HAS IMPLEMENTED A NEW FIREWALL AND NOW I CAN'T ACCESS THE FORUMS! *pant pant* Ehrm... Anyway. I believed that those books (races of ____ and similar ones) complemented the information in the Forgotten Realms books. I stand corrected, thanks, Lord K.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 12:27 AM	AAAAGH, THE OFFICE HAS IMPLEMENTED A NEW FIREWALL AND NOW I CAN'T ACCESS THE FORUMS! *pant pant* Ehrm... Anyway. -Er...Right. ;) I believed that those books (races of ____ and similar ones) complemented the information in the Forgotten Realms books. I stand corrected, thanks, Lord K. -No. The Races of X books are 'Core' Books. Champions of Ruin and Champtions of Valor have numerous pages dedicated to importing the various races introduced in these books into the Realms, though.
Kiioro 02-28-08, 12:48 AM	Yup. I know I don't post much, but I read many threads around here. So it *·%/$ me that now I can't log in from work. Anyway, I'm about to quit. And, precisely because of those books and a few others, where it says "XXXXX in Faerūn" that I thought that "Core" mingled perfectly with FR canon.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 01:00 AM	Yup. I know I don't post much, but I read many threads around here. So it *·%/$ me that now I can't log in from work. Anyway, I'm about to quit. -That's the spirit. Screw them! Tell them Lord Karsus said they can go to Hell. :)
Another Gnome 02-28-08, 06:23 AM	Inbreeding actually INCREASES the bloodlines of rats in some ways. -How does that happen? To hazard a guess (I'll do the research later unless Dan has a link at hand) that could have something to do with rats being in contact with all kinds of bacteria and viruses, so the ones who already have the genes to resist those things will do better breeding with equally strong members than taking the chance of introducing genes that may lack that resistance. Regardless, it should be noted that inbreeding doesn't automatically produce flawed individuals in any species, it merely increases the risk of passing on genetic deficiencies and reduces the manifestation of beneficial mutations. As for genetics in the Realms, people with brown eyes tend to have children with brown eyes, and an elf-child has characteristics in common with their parents like anyone else does. Whether or not they understand the underlying mechanics of it, they will expect that to happen even if they live in a magic-infused world.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 08:19 AM	As for genetics in the Realms, people with brown eyes tend to have children with brown eyes, and an elf-child has characteristics in common with their parents like anyone else does. Whether or not they understand the underlying mechanics of it, they will expect that to happen even if they live in a magic-infused world. But the Pundit squares don't work! ;) I'll work up a proper link later about the rats. It was actually my best friend (who owned a bunch of rats) who told me about it and explained it, but I don't want to talk any more without being 100% confident. Scientists don't write no articles without fata.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 12:43 PM	-Surface Elves as well. King Zaor Moonflower and Queen Amlauril Moonflower were distant cousins. The bloodline was a lot more diluted than brother and sister, however. -The marriage of distant cousins was a fairly common thing, and still is, especially in noble/royal circles. I've actually read that even marrying a first cousin isn't that harmful to any potential offspring, as long as it doesn't happen every generation or two (I still can't say I'd recommend that, though...). There's plenty not to like about Zaor and Amlaruil, but I never had a problem with them being married and also distant cousins.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 12:47 PM	Usually, "saving" oneself for someone until marriage has a lot to do with a few things, depending on the beliefs or reasons behind it: To think that the person would be for the other, having sex with no one before and aiming to keep it like that until death. In some cultures, the fact that a man breaks the hymen (elasticity and other factors notwithstanding) means that the woman was pure enough to marry, for she wasn't allowed to lay with other men before that. Now, Forgotten Realms isn't exactly like our world, so those rules may not apply at all (just like only barbarians are illiterate in a kind-of-middle-ages setting). I would also like to point out that even in the real world, in my culture, at least, it seems like most people don't seem to have much of a problem with sex before marriage in and of itself. I would like to add that the whole idea of the hymen being representitive of virginity is completely silly (some women are born without hymens, for starters!).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 12:53 PM	To hazard a guess (I'll do the research later unless Dan has a link at hand) that could have something to do with rats being in contact with all kinds of bacteria and viruses... But so are humans, and every other animal.:)
GothicDan 02-28-08, 12:58 PM	I would like to add that the whole idea of the hymen being representitive of virginity is completely silly (some women are born without hymens, for starters!). That, I did not know. Sex Ed, you failed me.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 01:07 PM	That, I did not know. Sex Ed, you failed me. Believe it or not, I've done a little of my own research on the subject (I didn't learn that in sex ed, either--heck, there's a lot I didn't learn until only several years ago).:) There is no physical way to find out whether or not someone is still a virgin--I've heard that fact confirmed by a doctor, as well. "Virginity" can be meaningful from a spiritual or emotional point of view, but not a scientific one.
GothicDan 02-28-08, 03:08 PM	Yeah. In Greek and Roman myths, 'virgo' referred to a pure, spiritually empowered woman, and often to priestesses.
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 04:06 PM	I've actually read that even marrying a first cousin isn't that harmful to any potential offspring, as long as it doesn't happen every generation or two (I still can't say I'd recommend that, though...). -Heh, I'll disagree. Before my mom moved to Staten Island, we had these neighbors, straight from Italy. They were cousins, first cousins, who married and had children. Their children were...not so much stable. There were three of 'em, all a few years older than me (about your age, probably). One was fine, was mildly retarded, and the last was retarded. So... That, I did not know. Sex Ed, you failed me. -That's what the internet is for. ;)
Storm_Silverhand 02-28-08, 05:01 PM	Heya, Believe it or not, I've done a little of my own research on the subject (I didn't learn that in sex ed, either--heck, there's a lot I didn't learn until only several years ago).:) There is no physical way to find out whether or not someone is still a virgin--I've heard that fact confirmed by a doctor, as well. "Virginity" can be meaningful from a spiritual or emotional point of view, but not a scientific one. Yeah, even women born with a hymen can loose it due to a number of factors, physical activity (sport, for example) - and mostly it's not broken, but stretched and/or worn away (so it won't necessarily bleed when it's "broken" either)... So the idea of blood on the sheets to confirm consummation of marriage on the wedding night is mostly a load of malarkey too (I wonder how often people looked and panicked and cut themselves to provide the "tell tale" sign?)... This is especially true in the modern era where women are far more likely to do sport and such, and also far more likely to have already had sex. ;)
Kenzuki 02-28-08, 05:29 PM	Well of course a Sunite could in theory be chaste and pure, but come on people do you REALLY believe that? Sune doesn't even allow ugly people in her clergy so with all these hot women running around I would think they would get a little friendly with the laity so to speak. And Chastity means not having sex. Either just before marriage or sex period. It's Celibacy that means you don't get married but that usually means not having sex either.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 06:44 PM	-Heh, I'll disagree. Before my mom moved to Staten Island, we had these neighbors, straight from Italy. They were cousins, first cousins, who married and had children. Their children were...not so much stable. There were three of 'em, all a few years older than me (about your age, probably). One was fine, was mildly retarded, and the last was retarded. So... Well, that's good evidence for not marrying one's first cousin, for sure... -That's what the internet is for. ;) Yeah.:)
Lord Karsus 02-28-08, 06:56 PM	Well, that's good evidence for not marrying one's first cousin, for sure... -And, then of course, there's Hillbillies. ;)
Khaelieth 02-28-08, 07:21 PM	I've actually read that even marrying a first cousin isn't that harmful to any potential offspring, as long as it doesn't happen every generation or two (I still can't say I'd recommend that, though...). There's plenty not to like about Zaor and Amlaruil, but I never had a problem with them being married and also distant cousins. There's not much damage in marrying a distant cousin, but marrying your first cousin isn't that smart. As stated above, having a child with a close blood relative means the chances of the child getting genetic defiencies rockets. Normally, if you've got a defective gene, your healthy gene gets expressed instead, which means you'll be perfectly healthy. Having a child with someone close, increases the chances of the child getting the defective gene from both sides, ergo, there won't be a healthy gene to help you. There are a lot of factors when it comes to when/who etc. Having a child when you've passed say, 30, greatly increases the chance of genetic diseases such as Downs and Kleinfeldter's (Sp?) because the women's eggs only get worse as they age. That's why you can get genetic counselling over here; you can be genetically screened for "bad" genes, and if there's a large chance of certain diseases, you'll be forewarned and know how to deal with it, if it arises. But you can't genetically screen the baby until after he/she's born, unless you've already decided to abort the fetus. But Zaor and Amlaruil, they weren't that closely related, so wouldn't think the chances of them having a child would be exceptionally large.
Kiioro 02-28-08, 10:04 PM	I would also like to point out that even in the real world, in my culture, at least, it seems like most people don't seem to have much of a problem with sex before marriage in and of itself. Yeah, I'd like to say the same about my culture, but it depends highly on where you live. My hometown is considered a kind of a heathen central by the nearest city, and people from Puerto Vallarta consider the ones in the city like a modern inquisition settlement. I would like to add that the whole idea of the hymen being representitive of virginity is completely silly (some women are born without hymens, for starters!). Yup, that's why I brought it up, our world is filled with strange ideas that aren't always based on truths. And... Khaelieth: I know that first hand. Two of my great-grandparents were cousins. Since that generation and onward, a few genetic disorders ensued. Well of course a Sunite could in theory be chaste and pure, but come on people do you REALLY believe that? Sune doesn't even allow ugly people in her clergy so with all these hot women running around I would think they would get a little friendly with the laity so to speak. I think that you're confusing a bit Sharess's church with Sune's. Starting with their portfolios (Beauty, Love, Passion with Sune and Hedonism, Sensual Fulfillment, Festhalls, Cats with Sharess), those goddesses might be very similar at a first glance.
Storm_Silverhand 02-29-08, 01:22 AM	Heya, Well of course a Sunite could in theory be chaste and pure, but come on people do you REALLY believe that? Sune doesn't even allow ugly people in her clergy so with all these hot women running around I would think they would get a little friendly with the laity so to speak. Does one necessarily need to be chaste to be pure? What exactly do you mean by pure, anyway? Also, you seem to think that "hot women" are promiscuous. :nonono: I don't even know where to start with that. I agree with Kiioro, I think you're confusing Sune with Sharess to some extent. Beauty, Love, and Passion do not necessarily involve sex. An artist has passion for her work, her love of the wilderness leads her to make landscapes the main focus of her art, and her work is regarded as beautiful by all who see it - no sex involved there, but perfect follower of Sune nonetheless. And Chastity means not having sex. Either just before marriage or sex period. It's Celibacy that means you don't get married but that usually means not having sex either. Only in cases where sex outside of marriage is discouraged.
Garidas 02-29-08, 03:05 AM	Reply to the first question at the first page (first post). I believe drow do not marry as the males are only meant to fight for / defend their "house" and "females of the house". And the last part they are used for is to make children too.
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 07:55 AM	I'm just saying. Forget even the pure part for a sec. He called a Sunite Chaste. That means no sex, either at all or before marriage. Given the free love motif the Realms has and the fact that you have a Aphrodite rip off goddess in this. I think we can all come to the conclusion that there an't going to be that many Sunites running around who are chaste in the literal sense of the world. Yeah she can be pure and still make love and all that, but chaste? I mean it's possible I suppose, but it'd require a big suspencion of disbelief on my part based on every thing I've read on the Realms and in the novels. Basically everyone has sex in the Realms. You've said so yourself how common place it is. With all this free love going around the odds of finding a bonafide virgin is going to be an epic quest. Not knocking Rino here, she's pretty cool and all.:D Oh and it's been my experience in life that girls or women who tend to be the best looking or the more beautiful tend to be more promiscuous than those who are "ugly" or just plain looking. Just my experiences of course.
Khaelieth 02-29-08, 08:53 AM	Oh and it's been my experience in life that girls or women who tend to be the best looking or the more beautiful tend to be more promiscuous than those who are "ugly" or just plain looking. Just my experiences of course. i actually completely disagree - munters are teh slutz. You've obviously never played "munter hunter." Get 10 lads, who all put 10£ (about 20$) in the pot. Then everyone tries to pull the ugliest girl they can, get your mates to take a pic on their cameras, and the one that pulls the ugliest munter gets the cash. in case of a draw (which happens, as people can be just as ugly or you can pull the same girl) you need to sleep with the woman. Now, this would NEVER work with pretty girls! But stereotyping girls rarely works - Met promiscuous munters and hot girls. What i have noticed from personal experience is that good-looking girls tend to cheat more, but that's probably cause they usually get chatted up more. As for Sune/Sharess thingy, always saw Sharess as the more sexually oriented one. Sune is perhaps more prominent, but she's more about love than luv.
Scathlock 02-29-08, 09:19 AM	i actually completely disagree - munters are teh slutz. You've obviously never played "munter hunter." Get 10 lads, who all put 10£ (about 20$) in the pot. Then everyone tries to pull the ugliest girl they can, get your mates to take a pic on their cameras, and the one that pulls the ugliest munter gets the cash. in case of a draw (which happens, as people can be just as ugly or you can pull the same girl) you need to sleep with the woman. Now, this would NEVER work with pretty girls! :eek: It's all true what they say about Brits, apparently. Man, this is weird (not to mention not a respectful way to treat fellow human beings)....
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 09:20 AM	i actually completely disagree - munters are teh slutz. You've obviously never played "munter hunter." Get 10 lads, who all put 10£ (about 20$) in the pot. Then everyone tries to pull the ugliest girl they can, get your mates to take a pic on their cameras, and the one that pulls the ugliest munter gets the cash. in case of a draw (which happens, as people can be just as ugly or you can pull the same girl) you need to sleep with the woman. Now, this would NEVER work with pretty girls! But stereotyping girls rarely works - Met promiscuous munters and hot girls. What i have noticed from personal experience is that good-looking girls tend to cheat more, but that's probably cause they usually get chatted up more. As for Sune/Sharess thingy, always saw Sharess as the more sexually oriented one. Sune is perhaps more prominent, but she's more about love than luv. I'm not sterotyping lol. I'm merely saying it's been my personal experience on the matter out of the women and girls that I know. I do tend to agree with you that pretty girls tend to cheat more, same thing for men actually. I can't really say which gender tends to cheat more though, but a study I saw once said that women tend to do it more than men it seems. I don't know if that was right or not. It was on the news.
GothicDan 02-29-08, 09:30 AM	Haha. A "study" on the "news." I'm glad you admit that this could be ********. ;) These kind of "studies" are useless, because modern Psychological standards are not allowed to do any truly intensive/invasive studies. Which makes me sad, since one of my favorite things in Psychology is Evolutionary Psychology - highlighting gender differences and to an extent racial differences. PS: Gay guys are the most promiscuous. Because they've already been rejected by society, so why bother following its norms unless they want to?* Once you drop the Judeo-Christian guilt, and the marriage thing, and the fact that there's a lot of protection available nowadays... Why not? * I'd probably sleep around intelligently if I was hot enough to.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 12:50 PM	-Those friggin' Drow...
Kiioro 02-29-08, 01:06 PM	I haven't seen a "promiscuity pattern" so far, I shall remain silent on that topic. On the other hand, Lord Karsus is right, we're talking about "friggin' Drow" here. If they routinely sleep around with demons, be it just for kicks or as special ceremonies, and see the resulting pregnancy as a blessing from their goddess... well, they might not be what we consider 'normal'. You know... just a hunch. By the way, Lord K: Although I plan on quitting soon, and I could tell my coworkers you say they can go to hell... They wouldn't know better, I'd just receive blank stares. Pity.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-29-08, 01:50 PM	Not knocking Rino here, she's pretty cool and all.:D Well, that's good to hear.;) :D I still think it's a bit funny how we got onto this topic, though...:P
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 04:37 PM	By the way, Lord K: Although I plan on quitting soon, and I could tell my coworkers you say they can go to hell... They wouldn't know better, I'd just receive blank stares. Pity. -Oh, they'd know...
Shiftkitty 02-29-08, 08:30 PM	KiioroAnd... Khaelieth: I know that first hand. Two of my great-grandparents were cousins. Since that generation and onward, a few genetic disorders ensued. How close of a cousin? My friend "JB" was born of second cousins. Not a thing wrong with him or his sister.
Kenzuki 02-29-08, 08:52 PM	I've heard of third cousins marrying and having perfectly healthy children. I wouldn't see anything wrong with that personally. First and second cousins is a little too close for me though.
Lord Karsus 02-29-08, 10:11 PM	I've heard of third cousins marrying and having perfectly healthy children. I wouldn't see anything wrong with that personally. First and second cousins is a little too close for me though. -The branches of family tree should branch out, not intertwine.
Kiioro 02-29-08, 10:13 PM	Kiioro How close of a cousin? My friend "JB" was born of second cousins. Not a thing wrong with him or his sister. His father and her father were brothers. I don't know what "cousin degree" is that. Lord Karsus, they are truly oblivious to their surroundings, I'd be happily surprised if they ever sounded a bit worried... and they're jaded. We're talking about politicians here. Damnation. I'm stranded at the airport. The flight has been delayed for at least 4 hrs- at least they've got free internet.
Lord Karsus 03-01-08, 01:32 AM	Lord Karsus, they are truly oblivious to their surroundings, I'd be happily surprised if they ever sounded a bit worried... and they're jaded. We're talking about politicians here. -Who, your coworkers?
Storm_Silverhand 03-01-08, 03:02 AM	Heya, Basically everyone has sex in the Realms. You've said so yourself how common place it is. With all this free love going around the odds of finding a bonafide virgin is going to be an epic quest. The question is - why would you bother looking for one? In such a place, virginity would not have the same value in the Realms as it does on Earth. Honestly, a virgin would be totally clueless, and you'd have to help them learn everything from the start. ;) Not that that's really a bad thing, since practice is fun. :D (My problem was that you kept using the words chaste and pure in the same sentence, as if one was necessary for the other.) Oh and it's been my experience in life that girls or women who tend to be the best looking or the more beautiful tend to be more promiscuous than those who are "ugly" or just plain looking. Just my experiences of course. You know, I have never actually met a person I would call "ugly". Plain, maybe, but not ugly.
Storm_Silverhand 03-01-08, 03:24 AM	Heya, i actually completely disagree - munters are teh slutz. You've obviously never played "munter hunter." Get 10 lads, who all put 10£ (about 20$) in the pot. Then everyone tries to pull the ugliest girl they can, get your mates to take a pic on their cameras, and the one that pulls the ugliest munter gets the cash. in case of a draw (which happens, as people can be just as ugly or you can pull the same girl) you need to sleep with the woman. Now, this would NEVER work with pretty girls! That is awful... no scratch that... That's inhuman! People who do that are :censored: :censored:. (Not aimed at you Khaelieth, unless you've played it.) I fear there is no hope for humanity. :banghead:
Another Gnome 03-01-08, 04:20 AM	The question is - why would you bother looking for one? In such a place, virginity would not have the same value in the Realms as it does on Earth. When an 80-foot red dragon tells you he wants a virgin for breakfast, you will go and find him a virgin!
Shiftkitty 03-01-08, 01:23 PM	His father and her father were brothers. I don't know what "cousin degree" is that. I think that's first cousins. My extended family are all but strangers to me, so I never really bothered to keep track of that stuff. I know I'm not a blood relation to my husband, and that's good enough for me!:)
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 12:24 AM	When an 80-foot red dragon tells you he wants a virgin for breakfast, you will go and find him a virgin! -That is a pretty compelling reason to oblige.
Khaelieth 03-02-08, 06:11 AM	I've heard of third cousins marrying and having perfectly healthy children. I wouldn't see anything wrong with that personally. First and second cousins is a little too close for me though. Heard of first cousins having perfectly fine children, but it's generally not a good idea. As for who's the most promiscuous; it's like GD says, a mate of mine's had sex with approx 150 men. But males are in general more likely to cheat, statistically. Don't have any links or so to back this up, but it's occasionally on the news. From personal experience, i'd say women cheat more; all but one of my exes cheated on me, and that one hooked up with one of my best mates after ditching me. And as for me being inhuman ('cause i've played munter hunter), there's no real harm in it. There's a lot worse things out there to call inhuman. it's just pure fun! Also, you're talking to someone who went to the strip clubs on Valentine's Day;)
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 06:19 AM	-What a guy, what a guy. ;)
Shiftkitty 03-02-08, 11:13 AM	Khaelieth- I'm curious. What do you tell a "munter" to get her to pose for the picture? Some women are NOT attractive and know it. If you've ever heard of Phyllis Diller, she'd probably follow you around saying "Take my picture! Take my picture!" Also, do you ever visit www.uglypeople.com ? (I think that's the name of the website.)
Another Gnome 03-02-08, 11:25 AM	Aaaaaargh! My eyes! My beautiful innocent eyes! :eek:
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 04:43 PM	-Ugh, so many ugly people...Most of those pictures look Photoshopped, though. But, still...
Storm_Silverhand 03-02-08, 05:12 PM	Heya, And as for me being inhuman ('cause i've played munter hunter), there's no real harm in it. There's a lot worse things out there to call inhuman. it's just pure fun! No real harm? :censored:
Shiftkitty 03-02-08, 06:59 PM	-Ugh, so many ugly people...Most of those pictures look Photoshopped, though. But, still... They used to not have any photoshopped pics on there. I try to pick out the real ones from the fakes. There's one lady on there who looks like her face represents plastic surgery gone wrong. It looks all swollen and puffy. It's not photoshopped. She was some rich b*tch who wanted to look more like a lioness to more accurately reflect her natural noble grace and other illusions of her fevered imagination. Her husband left her because of it, but along with the alimony she wanted him to pay for her continuing plastic surgery. Fortunately, the courts found in his favor. (You know how divorce courts are. They're usually run by Matrons...)
Lord Karsus 03-02-08, 08:54 PM	They used to not have any photoshopped pics on there. I try to pick out the real ones from the fakes. -Where the lines blur is hard to seperate. Some obviously are- I saw one picture of a person in the likeness of a cat, or a dog, or some animal. This one (http://www.uglypeople.com/voting.php?next=dXBsb2FkZWQvMTEwOTc1L25l d3BpYzE5LmpwZw==). Obviously, that's not real. But, like steroids in baseball, it leaves a question mark for everyone else. Are they really that ugly, or was that photo manipulated? Fortunately, the courts found in his favor. (You know how divorce courts are. They're usually run by Matrons...) -Especially when children are involved. My parents got divorced a long time ago, but my sister, for no real reason other than my mom constantly whispering in her ear, recently got emancipated from him. I had to take time off of school to go with my mother to "protect her", in her her own words, when we went to the court building. From what, I don't know, but I disgress. Sitting in the waiting room, listening to people fighting and lawyers talking, it's pretty pitiful. This one particular judge, from what I pieced together, ruled that a child (a five year old girl) should stay with her mother, because it was the judge's opinion that girls should grow up with their mothers, and that bringing her to a new setting with upset her social development. Sure, that sounds good, but the mother was living in a public project, whereas the father did not, and the mother was an unemployed alcoholic and a recovering drug addict (at the time), while the father worked at a grocery store, or something to that effect, but had been doing so for a number of years, and had a stable, if not that great, job. I feel bad for that little girl.
Khaelieth 03-03-08, 06:31 AM	Heya, No real harm? :censored: No, there's not. i'm not hurting anyone, you might say i'm insensitive or something, but it's all in good spirits. The girls let us kiss them, we don't force them. There are a lot worse things out there to be angry about. A bunch of students having a laugh or gang violence? We don't get them to pose, get a mate to take a picture of you kissing her, hopefully everyone's eyes are closed!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 01:50 PM	When an 80-foot red dragon tells you he wants a virgin for breakfast, you will go and find him a virgin! It does prompt the question of why a virgin would "taste differently" than a non-virgin.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 01:51 PM	And as for me being inhuman ('cause i've played munter hunter), there's no real harm in it. There's a lot worse things out there to call inhuman. it's just pure fun! I like you, Khaelieth, but that's pure meaness.
Shiftkitty 03-03-08, 03:20 PM	No, there's not. i'm not hurting anyone, you might say i'm insensitive or something, but it's all in good spirits. The girls let us kiss them, we don't force them. There are a lot worse things out there to be angry about. A bunch of students having a laugh or gang violence? We don't get them to pose, get a mate to take a picture of you kissing her, hopefully everyone's eyes are closed! So it sounds like they know what you're doing and play along. If that's the case, I agree. No harm. It's no worse (in fact it's probably more sensitive) than a card game women used to play in which each card had a stereotype of a guy on it, everything from hunk to bad boy to Don Juan to loser geek-boy and everything in between. The girls would walk around the bar and leave a card on the guy's table matching what they thought he qualified as. The goal was to have the least cards by the end of the evening. The cruel part was that you had to chat him up and make him think he stood a chance. Now that's mean and hurtful. (I don't know if any women got hurt playing this 'game', but it wouldn't surprise me.)
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 03:44 PM	It does prompt the question of why a virgin would "taste differently" than a non-virgin. -They are more tender? -Or, perhaps, they don't taste different at all, but Dragons just like making people work harder?
Storm_Silverhand 03-03-08, 04:55 PM	Heya, It does prompt the question of why a virgin would "taste differently" than a non-virgin. -They are more tender? -Or, perhaps, they don't taste different at all, but Dragons just like making people work harder? It's obviously all caught up in the association of purity with virginity. There's something in the blood of a female (girl or woman) who has known no man that makes them pure and/or innocent. It is that factor of the blood that makes them attractive for the rituals of evil (and maybe even some not so evil) cultists and for evil dragons to eat. But that's an Earth stereotype, and yes it is gender biased. Virginity, strictly speaking, only applies to females. I think it might be interesting to see what Ed thinks. :) Perhaps I'll ask...
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 05:19 PM	If I were a Red Dragon I wouldn't descriminate between virgins and non virgins. I'de eat them all equally.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 05:45 PM	It's obviously all caught up in the association of purity with virginity. -Yes, I know. It was a joke. If I were a Red Dragon I wouldn't descriminate between virgins and non virgins. I'de eat them all equally. -You'd be a fat dragon, then, eating everyone indiscriminantly. Maybe virgins are fat-free? Low cholesterol? Low carb?
Kenzuki 03-03-08, 05:49 PM	-Yes, I know. It was a joke. -You'd be a fat dragon, then, eating everyone indiscriminantly. Maybe virgins are fat-free? Low cholesterol? Low carb? The bigger the dragon, the more power.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 05:59 PM	The bigger the dragon, the more power. -Not necessarily.
Khaelieth 03-03-08, 08:13 PM	I like you, Khaelieth, but that's pure meaness. Whaaaaa? Girl gets snogged and perhaps some rare love. She feels better, but the boy dissapears into the night. Perfect stranger. Hardly anything to get heartbroken over. i've chatted up/kissed/slept with girls without given them my number or even considering seeing them ever again, if they want my number, they'd better ask for it. i just fail to see where the girl's losing out. Might seem mean, but we're actually not hurting anyone, emotionally or physically.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 09:06 PM	Whaaaaa? Girl gets snogged and perhaps some rare love. She feels better, but the boy dissapears into the night. Perfect stranger. Hardly anything to get heartbroken over. i've chatted up/kissed/slept with girls without given them my number or even considering seeing them ever again, if they want my number, they'd better ask for it. i just fail to see where the girl's losing out. Might seem mean, but we're actually not hurting anyone, emotionally or physically. I want to let you know, I was in a bad mood when I wrote what I did. The behavior you mention doesn't exactly sit well with me (it still does seem mean, or at least cynical and exploitative), but it's up to you to make your own choices. The idea that plain girls won't get much love without this type of "help" is condescending and probably is inaccurate. If that were the case, how come people who are "hot" aren't the only ones who wind up happily married and/or partnered? And I'm saying all this as someone who considers herself attractive--so, it's not like I'm taking this personally, I'm just commenting on something that I think is wrong-headed.
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 12:07 AM	Whaaaaa? Girl gets snogged and perhaps some rare love. She feels better, but the boy dissapears into the night. Perfect stranger. Hardly anything to get heartbroken over. i've chatted up/kissed/slept with girls without given them my number or even considering seeing them ever again, if they want my number, they'd better ask for it. i just fail to see where the girl's losing out. Might seem mean, but we're actually not hurting anyone, emotionally or physically. -Uh, that does seem kinda...wrong. The later stages of it, anyway. Chatting and kissing, whatever, but sleeping with? Eh... And I'm saying all this as someone who considers herself attractive... -It's true, it's true.
Khaelieth 03-04-08, 04:52 AM	I want to let you know, I was in a bad mood when I wrote what I did. The behavior you mention doesn't exactly sit well with me (it still does seem mean, or at least cynical and exploitative), but it's up to you to make your own choices. The idea that plain girls won't get much love without this type of "help" is condescending and probably is inaccurate. If that were the case, how come people who are "hot" aren't the only ones who wind up happily married and/or partnered? And I'm saying all this as someone who considers herself attractive--so, it's not like I'm taking this personally, I'm just commenting on something that I think is wrong-headed. it's not to "help" the girl, missed out on punctuations above; should've been "and, perhaps, some rare love." i mean, the girl's bloody agreeing to it! Also, in my experience, it's the not the pretty girls get that get the most action, in general, though it's easier for the pretty ones to get some. This i've already stated above! The reason we choose the munters is more for comical value. i mean, saying you pulled some hawt burd isn't gonna be a good story! it's when you wake up beside a walrus and a half it gets amusing! As for not calling them, why should always the guy get her number? Egalitarianism ftw. But before the mods lock the thread, does anyone reckon the drow have any ceremonies for inducting the Patron?
Storm_Silverhand 03-04-08, 06:15 AM	Heya, Whaaaaa? Girl gets snogged and perhaps some rare love. She feels better, but the boy dissapears into the night. Perfect stranger. Hardly anything to get heartbroken over. i've chatted up/kissed/slept with girls without given them my number or even considering seeing them ever again, if they want my number, they'd better ask for it. i just fail to see where the girl's losing out. Might seem mean, but we're actually not hurting anyone, emotionally or physically. But you are using them. And the only reason you're having anything to do with them is because you've got money to win. You aren't doing it because you genuinely like the girl... It's completely wrong headed on so many levels... I'd say I'm surprised you don't see it, but not much surprises me about humans these days. Anyway, it's morally bankrupt IMHO. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute and think about how you'd feel if you knew exactly what was going on. (Unlike Rino, I speak from the point of view of a woman who is morbidly obese and probably falls into the "munter" category because of it.)
Another Gnome 03-04-08, 06:22 AM	I can... sort of see the point of what Khaelieth is talking about, he's just going out of his way to make it sound worse than it probably is. Guys exaggarate their conquests and talk about them in public, that's just a fact of life, and if it was pretty girls being used as one-night-stands we wouldn't be even having the conversation. Then again, I'm a fairly good-looking guy so my opinion doesn't count. :(
Shiftkitty 03-04-08, 10:06 AM	But before the mods lock the thread, does anyone reckon the drow have any ceremonies for inducting the Patron? Back on topic: Strictly tongue-in-cheek, it's probably when he wakes up in the female's bed with the circulation in his hands cut off from the leather straps. If she really likes him, he's got a whiskey bottle up his you-know-where. Seriously, I imagine there would be some kind of induction to bind the male to the house. Maybe it's one of those magical contracts where if you break it your head explodes, or something?
The_Shaman 03-04-08, 10:41 AM	He's kinda enslaved, you mean ;) I've heard some people approach marriage from such an angle, but afaik they're either long married or not married at all ;)
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 12:56 PM	But before the mods lock the thread, does anyone reckon the drow have any ceremonies for inducting the Patron? -Yeah. It goes something like this: Female: "You. Bed. Now."
Khaelieth 03-04-08, 01:13 PM	Heya, But you are using them. And the only reason you're having anything to do with them is because you've got money to win. You aren't doing it because you genuinely like the girl... It's completely wrong headed on so many levels... I'd say I'm surprised you don't see it, but not much surprises me about humans these days. Anyway, it's morally bankrupt IMHO. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute and think about how you'd feel if you knew exactly what was going on. (Unlike Rino, I speak from the point of view of a woman who is morbidly obese and probably falls into the "munter" category because of it.) it's not because i've got money to win, it's because it's fun! With around ten lads competing, you're probably not gonna win, the money's just added spice. And what's wrong with ending up in bed with someone you don't really know or genuinely like? if she agrees, she's probably happy to do so and nobody loses out. i've had sex with a friend a few times just because we both came to the conclusion we both were horny and it was far simpler to just do it than actually bother to try to end up with someone in bed. But does the Patron necessarily have to be in bed with the Matron?
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 01:32 PM	But does the Patron necessarily have to be in bed with the Matron? -Well, it's not like she's looking for his love or anything...
Shiftkitty 03-04-08, 03:06 PM	No, but I think she'd be pretty territorial. Imagine the poor guy who has two femmes fighting over him. What was the bit in DotU that said the poor guy could easily end up flayed in one or the other's bed? A lenient mistress my ignore his dalliances as long as he was ready and available when she wanted him.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-04-08, 07:52 PM	-It's true, it's true. Aww, shucks.:embarrass :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-04-08, 07:59 PM	it's not to "help" the girl, missed out on punctuations above; should've been "and, perhaps, some rare love." i mean, the girl's bloody agreeing to it! But you don't call her a "munter" (what does that mean, anyway?) or a "walrus" to her face, do you? And yes, it did seem to me like you were rationalizing such behavior as a way of doing "ugly" girls a favor, with the "rare love" bit. Like I said, it's your life, and it's up to you to make your own choices. However, if you post about such choices here and also say you find them amusing, can you really be surprised that at least some people aren't going to be amused by it, and will say so? At the very least, please think about what we said.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-04-08, 08:05 PM	-Yeah. It goes something like this: Female: "You. Bed. Now." Yes. :rofl: Or, like what Henry VIII said to Mary Boleyn in The Other Boleyn Girl (yes, I saw that movie!)--just a terse, whispered, "Tonight.":rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 11:30 PM	But you don't call her a "munter" (what does that mean, anyway?) or a "walrus" to her face, do you? -I was wondering that, too. Then, I checked Wikipedia: Munter is a British slur used to refer to a remarkably ugly person, a stupid person, or someone who takes drugs.
Kiioro 03-05-08, 01:53 AM	-Yeah. It goes something like this: Female: "You. Bed. Now." ...so, basically, male Drow are Norbits? (I can't believe that movie made it here...)
Lord Karsus 03-05-08, 01:55 AM	...so, basically, male Drow are Norbits? (I can't believe that movie made it here...) -That's a slang that Wikipedia did not translate for me. Help, please? ;)
Kiioro 03-05-08, 02:25 AM	Norbit is an infamous Eddie Murphy character, and when he and his wife went to bed... sounds basically like what you said in your other post. Maybe the whole selection thing goes something like this: "Hmmm... This guy knows how to (INSERT SOMETHING OF INTEREST TO THE MATRON) well. And he's not taken by anyone -or anyone more powerful than me." Right after that comes the "You. Bed. Now." part. And, we don't have unique english slang here, so don't worry, if I use unknown words, it's probably my lexicon, when I think a spanish word is similar to one in english and it doesn't exist. ...or a reference to another thing.
Lord Karsus 03-05-08, 02:27 AM	Norbit is an infamous Eddie Murphy character, and when he and his wife went to bed... sounds basically like what you said in your other post. -Oh, oh, okay. I thought it was a slang, like Khaelieth's 'munter'.
MarkusTay63 03-05-08, 02:44 AM	Norbit would be a Munter. He was also a bell-end. ;)
Khaelieth 03-05-08, 09:55 AM	Norbit would be a Munter. He was also a bell-end. ;) Only applies to women, and never heard it used about stupid people or junkies. Gotta love the Sheriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood; Prince of Thieves: Sherrif [to two ladies]: You, my room at 10, you [other woman], my room 10:30, bring a friend. Also when he wants to call of Xmas... Awesomeness.
Lord Karsus 03-05-08, 10:44 AM	Sherrif [to two ladies]: You, my room at 10, you [other woman], my room 10:30, bring a friend. -Heh, that made me chuckle. But, come on, Robin. Only a half an hour?
Kenzuki 03-05-08, 11:00 AM	-Heh, that made me chuckle. But, come on, Robin. Only a half an hour? Maybe he gets bored after half an hour?
Lord Karsus 03-05-08, 11:12 AM	Maybe he gets bored after half an hour? -Nah, there's nothing boring about...Well, you know.
Kiioro 03-06-08, 02:27 PM	I have another question regarding the drow. But, since this thread is already large enough, I'll rather post it here. How are drow vampire (or other kinds of undead) viewed in Lolth-worshipping communities? Unlike with most kinds of elves, the alignment and lust for destruction or power are not opposed to the community's standards...
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 03:11 PM	I have another question regarding the drow. But, since this thread is already large enough, I'll rather post it here. How are drow vampire (or other kinds of undead) viewed in Lolth-worshipping communities? -One of the Matron Mothers of either Menzoberranzan or Ched Nesad was a Vampire.
Kiioro 03-06-08, 08:22 PM	Openly so?
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 08:26 PM	Openly so? -I believe, yes. She has servitor Vampires, and Undead, and everything. She's still a Priestess of Lolth, though, so Lolth still 'favors' her, and as such, what are the other Matrons really going to do?
Kiioro 03-06-08, 08:32 PM	Shake their tiny fists impotently. But it's interesting, then, a culture that openly embraces undead... By the way, L. Karsus. I always have this impression that the developers instead of writing in their journals, write inside your mind. Or that you eat a healthy breakfast of fruit, cereals, milk and forgotten realms. There's no other way to explain the amount of info.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 08:39 PM	But it's interesting, then, a culture that openly embraces undead... -Plenty already do. There's the Kiaransaleeans, Thayvians, and a whole bunch of specific instances (such as, say, the Dodking). Or that you eat a healthy breakfast of fruit, cereals, milk and forgotten realms. There's no other way to explain the amount of info. -More like a steady diet of skittles, microwave pizza, maccaroni and cheese (homemade, not in the box), Vanilla Coke, sour cream and cheddar Ruffles, and Forgotten Realms.
Kiioro 03-06-08, 08:50 PM	Sounds healthy enough.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 08:56 PM	-Yeah, more or less. Health, schmelth. That's my motto.
The Ubbergeek 03-08-08, 05:57 PM	-Yeah, more or less. Health, schmelth. That's my motto. Poutine, monseigneur? ;)
Lord Karsus 03-09-08, 08:49 AM	Poutine, monseigneur? ;) -No thank you. I like Cheese-Fries, but I don't like gravy.
Khaelieth 03-09-08, 10:53 PM	un croque-monsieur, s'il vous plais?
Kiioro 03-09-08, 11:26 PM	Ah, but nothing like a phrase used by a friend to hit on the ladies. "Je suis le fromage". (Yeah, he had no idea...)
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 10:00 AM	-Omle du fromage. That's all I've got...
Khaelieth 03-10-08, 11:59 AM	Ah, but nothing like a phrase used by a friend to hit on the ladies. "Je suis le fromage". (Yeah, he had no idea...) Heh. Je voudrais deux biere is all the French you need to know... And "Tu est le poof celebre."
Kiioro 03-11-08, 09:50 PM	-Omle du fromage. That's all I've got... or "Qui a coupé le fromaaaaage" if you were alive in the Freakazoid times.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 09:23 AM	or "Qui a coupé le fromaaaaage" if you were alive in the Freakazoid times. -Ah, I forgot about Freakazoid. You know why Freakazoid got canceled? I recently found this out. The FCC stated that all TV channels needed to have an hour of educational TV on Saturdays. So, two television shows needed to be canceled. Freakazoid was one of them...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 01:22 PM	-The FCC stated that all TV channels needed to have an hour of educational TV on Saturdays. That's dumb. And statist.
Kiioro 03-12-08, 02:14 PM	WHAT?! REALLY?! Hell, they didn't think about the harm that could have done (and did) in Maztica at all... No more Relax-o-vision! (And AFAIK, there's no FCC here.) Hrmph.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 02:40 PM	That's dumb. And statist. -Yes, yes it is dumb. I am all for people being able to watch whatever it is they want to watch, read whatever it is they want to read, and so on. (And AFAIK, there's no FCC here.) -No, the FCC's influence doesn't reach into South America, the the cartoon was funded, drawn, produced and aired primarily in the US. When Warner-Brothers had to drop the cartoon on their Saturday morning roster, there was no reason to continue drawing new episodes. Thus, that's how it died everywhere else, too.
Shiftkitty 03-12-08, 02:56 PM	And I question the educational value of the shows that made the grade. When I worked in radio, we had our own version of what "FCC" stood for, and none of it can be repeated here.
Another Gnome 03-12-08, 04:08 PM	I am all for people being able to watch whatever it is they want to watch, read whatever it is they want to read, and so on. You do know that showing educational program on telly doesn't mean you have to watch it? :P Besides, you should be watching this anyway. (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article902014.ece)
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 04:13 PM	Besides, you should be watching this anyway. (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article902014.ece) -Yes, I saw that. Looks like a Scottish Terrier to me...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 08:01 PM	You do know that showing educational program on telly doesn't mean you have to watch it? :P But the other point is (and I'm about to get a bit political here), there's no good reason for the government to mandate something like that. That's why I called the action statist.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 08:15 PM	-Yes, I saw that. Looks like a Scottish Terrier to me... *laughs* It probably was something innocuous.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 11:08 PM	*laughs* It probably was something innocuous. -Things like that always are.