Post/Author/DateTime	Post
18DELTA 12-21-07, 11:36 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221 Once they were a single race: The elves say they were elves, the eladrin say they were eladrin. The drow say they were debased, unfinished, and fatally flawed, and would have stayed that way but for the help of Lolth. In the younger days of creation, a fey race walked the borders between the world and the Feywild. Corellon and the two sisters, Sehanine and Lolth, delighted in this race, for all three gods saw in them the qualities they most valued. Corellon prized them for their artistry, their innate sense for the ebb and flow of magic, their song, and their fierce anger in battle. Sehanine loved their stealth, their gentle footsteps in the shadows of the forest, and their curiosity and wonder at the newborn world. And Lolth particularly enjoyed those who sought power and seized it, who spied and schemed to achieve their goals, who showed no mercy to their enemies or their rivals. For this young race, like most of the fey, had a very different sense of morality from that of other races. Moradin, Pelor, and Bahamut taught their followers the noble path of law and good, encouraged them to shun evil, value life, and build societies that protected their weaker citizens. The elves, though, were as changing as the seasons and the moon, mercurial in their passions. Corellon taught them to love beauty and savor life but to kill in an ecstatic fury of blasting magic and whirling blade when they faced their enemies in battle. Sehanine taught them to find their own paths without any particular ethical code. And Lolth extended Sehanine's doctrine to its extreme, teaching the elves to place their own goals above all other cares and to stop at nothing to achieve them. The elves as a race were neither good nor evil -- they didn't think in those terms. They enjoyed beauty and pleasure, and many of them found pleasure in kindness and beauty in every facet of life, and so acted in good ways. Still, they might inflict pain or even death, not out of cruelty, but purely out of curiosity. Others found pleasure in causing pain, and turned their path to evil. Sehanine, god of the full moon, was fair-skinned and dark-haired, while Lolth, god of the new moon, was the opposite. As the race of elves spread and built their first cities, Lolth marked her favorites -- those elves who delighted in murder and destruction -- by matching their coloration to hers. Even before Lolth's rebellion, these dark-skinned elves began to claim the name of drow, an ugly Elven word that refers to the things that haunt the night. Up to this point, the legends and histories of the three races mostly agree. Some details may differ -- most notably the name by which the unified race was known -- but the broad outline is the same. With the rebellion of Lolth, however, the histories diverge. They agree on the fact of Lolth's revolt: She turned against her sister and Corellon and led her chosen ones in battle against the other elves. The reason for her revolt is less clear. The most common legends include the following: Lolth grew tired of sharing her power and authority with Sehanine and tried to kill her sister, to claim the shadows and the moon as her exclusive domain. Lolth was jealous of the affection between Corellon and her sister and tried to kill one or the other of them. Lolth descended into the Elemental Chaos and even plumbed the Abyss in a search for knowledge or power, and she made alliances with demons -- and then Corellon and Sehanine sought to punish her blasphemy. Or Lolth believed that her chosen people should rule the elf race and led them to seize power, which only then resulted in conflict among the gods. Whatever the reason for the revolt of Lolth and the drow, the consequences were devastating. War tore through the shining fey cities and consumed the woodlands of the world with fire. Some say that the world and the Feywild grew more distant from each other, making passage between them more difficult and driving a wedge between the elves who favored one over the other. Ultimately, the drow were cut off and banished from elf and eladrin communities, driven into the dark places of the world, the Feywild, and the Shadowfell. Lolth made her home in the Abyss, taking the title of the Demon Queen of Spiders. By the end of the rebellion, the elves, the eladrin, and the drow were three distinct races. Each was shaped by the nature of their home and the favor of their gods. Elves: A Closer Look Whatever the history and legend of their origin, the elves of the present day are very much creatures of the world. Though still fey in their nature, they are attuned to the world and its primal power, at home in the woodlands, and they live in harmony with the beasts and trees that share their home. Since the revolt of the drow, the elves have walked quietly over the earth, leaving little trace. As kingdoms and empires grew and collapsed -- the human realm of Nerath, the dragonborn Arkhosia, the tiefling Bael Turath, and countless nations before them -- the elves remained in their woodland homes, mostly unaffected by the rise and fall of nations. On a few occasions, the eladrin built kingdoms in the world. Sometimes these kingdoms sought cordial relations with their elf neighbors, and elves and eladrin lived as close as they ever had since Lolth's rebellion. At other times, the eladrin tried to force the elves into a reunion of the races and met bitter resistance. There can be no doubt, now, that the two races will never again be one. Shunning kingdoms of their own, the elves no longer build cities as their ancestors did, but make their homes among the trees. They live in family or clan units, sleeping in tents or under the stars as they range through the forests and gather what they need to survive. At other times, they in temporary villages built on platforms in the branches, linked by vines and ropes -- almost a natural part of the trees themselves. They roam with the seasons, following animals on their migrations or journeying to where fruits and nuts grow in greatest abundance. At least twice a year -- at midsummer and midwinter -- elf families and clans gather together to observe the turning of the seasons, share stories and news of the recent months, and celebrate marriages, births, and deaths. In the darkness that has been growing since the fall of Nerath, the elves find it more and more difficult to maintain their traditional ways. Many of their forests are no longer safe even for their keen-eyed archers and hardy warriors. Some forests have burned to their roots, driving the elves to find safe refuge in the better-defended settlements of other races. Where, in the past, it was unusual to find elves in human towns except as traders, now many elf families have taken up permanent residence among humans, halflings, and even dwarves, joining with these other races for protection against the darkness. As a race, elves are fleet of foot and agile. Though they are by no means stupid, they do not place the same value on learning and intellect that their eladrin cousins do. Rather, they value the wisdom of years and the truth of intuition and insight. Their more comic legends are full of eladrin who are puffed up with their own knowledge but lack even a modicum of common sense, and cunning elf heroes who trick their foolish cousins. Elves share a passionate and emotional nature with many of their fey cousins. They experience feelings deeply and intensely, and their emotions are often mercurial. An elf can swing from wailing grief to heartfelt laughter in a moment, and as quickly to burning rage. They make bitter enemies, sometimes clinging to grudges through long generations, but they are reliable and compassionate friends who remember gratitude longer than wrongs. Many elves still revere Corellon and (particularly) Sehanine, but many others worship Melora, god of the wilds where they make their homes. Even those elves who drift toward evil rarely turn to Lolth. The legend of her rebellion stings too much. Instead, they worship the Raven Queen, Zehir, or occasionally savage Gruumsh. For many elves, the gods are not much different from the clan elders who have moved on from this life to another. They remember the gods in thanks and might pray for insight, but not many elves become champions of any god's ideals as a cleric or paladin. They are not as fascinated with arcane magic as their eladrin cousins, often growing impatient with its intricacies and precision. They are drawn more to mastery of primal power, which keeps them attuned to the natural world with its spirits and forces. Elf rangers, rogues, druids, and barbarians are the most common adventurers. Eladrin: A Race Apart The eladrin claim to be the original race from which both elves and drow split, with the (usually) unspoken implication that both other races fell away from the state of near-perfection that the eladrin embody. Certainly, the eladrin are still the most fey of the three elf races, still steeped in the magic of the Feywild and still the favored children of Corellon. Arcane magic suffuses their bodies and souls, sometimes emanating from them in a soft nimbus of fey light. Many races of the world can look back in history to a shining example of their ancestors' accomplishments: the dragonborn empire of Arkhosia or the human realm of Nerath, for example. When the eladrin reflect back on their days of glory, they think first and foremost of the time before Lolth's rebellion, when the whole Feywild shined with the light of the eladrin cities. Those cities now lie in ruins, still hauntingly beautiful among the fey forests with moonlight shining on their shattered spires and ivory walls, but haunting in their testimony to the violence of the rebellion. Eladrin still build towers of graceful beauty in the grandest places of the Feywild -- breathtaking gorges and verdant glens -- and sometimes even among the ruins of their ancient cities. But no eladrin city of the present day, or of the past hundred centuries, can compare to the heights of the eladrin race in that mythic time before. Eladrin cities of the present day are usually little more than a single ivory spire rising above a scattering of smaller homes, all built in perfect harmony with their surroundings as if carved from the earth by wind and rain. There have been times in the history of the world when eladrin tried to rebuild the ancient glory of a united race, extending their city-states into the natural world and making overtures to nearby elf communities. These dreams of kingdoms that would bridge the worlds have always crumbled to dust with the passing of years, usually within the span of a single generation. Eladrin society has more in common with the human structures of nobility and rulership than it does with the family-based society of the elves. Noble houses ruled by eladrin with titles such as Bralani of Autumn Winds or Ghaele of Winter govern tiny princedoms scattered across the Feywild. The eladrin swear loyalty to their noble protectors, who promise to help defend them against fomorians and other dangers of the fey darkness. Unlike human rulers, these noble eladrin wield tremendous power derived from a close connection to the magic of the Feywild, so their tiny city-states do remain as lights, however dim and flickering, standing against the encroaching darkness. Eladrin share the grace and agility of their elf cousins but place more value on the developed intellect than on intuition and emotion. All eladrin are scholars to some degree, versed in the history of their race and the theories of magic and more inclined to calculate possible solutions than to run with a gut feeling. The eladrin can seem cold and emotionless to outsiders, if sometimes capricious, and they are certainly less passionate than the elves. Their grief manifests as a wistful melancholy, their pleasure as a soft smile, and their anger as a simmering glare. Much like the elves, they have long memories for both gifts and grudges. Most eladrin worship Corellon and Sehanine. Some temples in the Feywild are still arranged as they were before Lolth's rebellion -- built as three interlocking circles, each with its altar to one of the three elf gods. In most of these temples, Lolth's altar has been destroyed or defaced. Sometimes it is draped with black cloth to hide it from view, and sometimes it is visible but simply unadorned. There are eladrin who believe that the three gods will one day be reconciled, just as the three races will again be one. Some say that Corellon's dominion of Arborea lies in the Feywild, while others claim it floats in the Astral Sea. It's possible that it drifts between the worlds or somehow exists in both places at once. To the eladrin mind, Arborea is perhaps not so different from the court of any noble eladrin -- larger and more magnificent, perhaps, but a place where any eladrin would feel at home, even in the presence of so great a lord as the noble Corellon. Sehanine, it's said, wanders freely in and out of Corelllon's home but spends much of her time in the Feywild, where travelers might stumble across her path. Some who attend one of Sehanine's moonlit feasts are said to become lost for centuries, while others awaken after a single night to find themselves blessed with gifts and powers beyond their imagining. More so than the elves, eladrin sometimes become champions of a god in much the same way that one might become a fey knight in service to a noble eladrin. Divine magic is not alien to the eladrin, but arcane magic is their love and part of their nature. Eladrin wizards are far more common than warlocks, sorcerers, or bards, but any form of arcane magic is a source of endless fascination for the race. Noble Eladrin The lords and ladies that rule the eladrin are powerful fey who embody the character of the race. Their magic is tied to seasons and emotions. A ghaele might lash out with a blast of wintry cold, while a coure sows strife among her enemies. They are enigmatic and aloof and can be very capricious, especially when mortals venture into their domains. The tale of Ferrin Toth, a human wizard who ventured into the Feywild seeking arcane secrets, illustrates the nature of the noble eladrin. Proud of his knowledge and confident in his arcane power, Ferrin Toth used a ritual to transport himself into the Feywild. After parting the veil between worlds, he found himself in a lovely valley with a crystalline spire rising beside a sparkling waterfall at the valley's head. He presented himself at the palace gate in the late afternoon, asking for an audience with the ruler of the place. Two women escorted him into the presence of their lord Immeral, Firre of Passion. Warm braziers lit the audience hall against the approaching twilight and fire seemed to dance in the opalescent eyes of the eladrin lord. He welcomed the human wizard graciously, descending from his throne to escort the traveler on a tour through the palace. Ferrin lingered by the doorway to the eladrin's magnificent library, but Immeral told him he could explore the library in the morning. Ferrin tried to protest -- there was still enough daylight for him to read -- but the eladrin wouldn't hear him. He hurried Ferrin to a luxurious guest room, warned him not to leave the room until dawn's light burned on the horizon, and left him alone. Ferrin couldn't sleep. His glimpse of the lord's great library tormented him, and desire to plumb its secrets consumed him. When the palace was silent and the full moon glittered in its spires, Ferrin crept from his room and tried to retrace his steps to the library. As he walked, the corridors seemed to twist in on themselves, and soon the gleaming crystal walls melted into thickets of briars. He wandered through what had become a labyrinth until dawn began to brighten the sky. Then the two women who had brought him to the lord's audience hall stepped out of the thickets. Their lovely faces and forms vanished in a flash, revealing monstrous creatures of wood and vine, swinging arms like mighty cudgels at him. With a word of refuge, Ferrin returned to the sanctum of his own tower. But the vision of the Firre of Passion's library haunted him. Every night he tossed and turned on his bed, thinking of the library and the wonders he had glimpsed through its doorway. Every morning, when dawn's light burned on the horizon, he thought he stood again in that doorway, and hope surged in his chest -- but as soon as the sun rose above the distant hills, his vision cleared and he was still in his tower. Many times he returned to the Feywild, but he was never able to find Immeral's palace again. Drow: Lolth's Chosen The drow are creatures of evil and darkness, exiles banished to the subterranean realms beneath the Feywild, the world, and the Shadowfell. Their ties to the forests and valleys of nature are cut, and they live by cruelty and domination, no longer in harmony with the beasts of the wild. The drow build their cities deep underground, their slender spires and feylit towers echoing or mocking the graceful eladrin cities of the Feywild. Their society is a study in paradox. Within a drow city, various families or houses hold power. A drow without a connection to one of these houses is an outcast, and members of other races are rarely anything but slaves to these houses. The drow are inclined to empire, unlike their cousins, and the well-ordered houses would perhaps conquer both the Underdark and the surface world were it not for Lolth and her priests. Lolth is a god of treachery and chaos, and at her urging, her priests lead the house matrons in constant battles for dominance. Even when a single house manages to cling to power for an extended time, it must be constantly vigilant against the threat of a lesser house trying to claim its position, and struggles among the lesser houses prevent the city from acting in anything like a concerted effort toward conquest. Drow share the agility of their cousins, which they often put to use in stealth and trickery. Although they are no taller than eladrins, they have a presence that often makes members of other races feel smaller and on edge -- a fury seems to be at constant boil behind their blank white eyes, ready to explode at the slightest provocation. Like the elves, their moods can change in an instant, most often transforming into blind, murderous rage. The drow remain Lolth's own, and they tolerate the worship of no other god. The names of Corellon and Sehanine are blasphemy to a drow's ears, and even a euphemistic reference to either god is accompanied by spitting on the ground. The drow revere spiders because Lolth chose them as her symbol, and they traffic with demons because Lolth has made some demons her servants. The priests of Lolth hold political as well as spiritual power, serving as advisers to the house matrons if not actually filling that position themselves. Drow society revolves around Lolth, though it means a constant state of civil upheaval. While elves and eladrin are inclined to view the gods as simply a greater form of their own lords and elders, the drow give Lolth their unquestioning devotion. Far more drow follow divine paths to become clerics or paladins than either elves or eladrin do -- perhaps in part because of the temporal authority that comes with service to Lolth but also for the opportunity to commune more closely with their god and savor her power flowing through them. They have not forgotten their heritage of arcane study, however, and produce many mighty wizards and warlocks. While religion and politics are primarily the arena of women among the drow, the arcane masters of the race are mostly men. The more high-minded elves and eladrin sometimes take a compassionate view of the drow, perhaps believing that the three races might one day be reunited. The drow, on the other hand, permit no such weakness of thought, as they see it. Whatever their short-term plans of conquest or rebellion, the drow long for the day when they will exterminate their kindred, obliterating the stain of elves and eladrin from the world and the Feywild. Only occasionally do these dreams manifest in any kind of action, but drow have been seen fighting alongside fomorians in the Feywild. Without a doubt, the aspirations of the drow echo the dreams and schemes of Lolth, the Spider Queen. In her Abyssal domain of the Demonweb Pits, she sits and waits, plotting the day when she can snare her sister and Corellon in her webs and finish the work she started at the dawn of time. And then the three races will be only one. Drow As Player Characters With the release of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting in the summer of of '08, drow will be presented as a fully playable character race. Although drow as a race are a singularly wicked people, cruel and treacherous in their dealings with others, a smattering in every generation learn cooperation and the value of alliance. While some of these are merely cunning in their decision to gain the trust of others, a few truly come to value the positive aspects of camaraderie and friendship, sometimes even with those not of their own race. Play a drow if you want to be good at skulking about, striking quick, and employing a variety of dirty tactics; ?enjoy playing a hero in search of redemption and who struggles to rise above the wickedness of his people; ?are considering a ranger, rogue, warlock. About the Author James Wyatt is the Lead Story Designer for D&D and one of the lead designers of D&D 4th Edition. In over seven years at Wizards of the Coast, he has authored or co-authored award-winning adventures and settings including the Eberron Campaign Setting, City of the Spider Queen, and Oriental Adventures. His more recent work includes Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, and The Forge of War. His second Eberron novel, Storm Dragon, released in September. :D
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 03:15 AM	-Didn't you post this same exact thread...? -Well, either way, a lot of this can't/doesn't apply to the Elves of Faerūn, as they have different racial histories and all. We know that Sun/Moon/Star Elves are going to become "Eldadrin" (according to the rules), but not really (according to the lore). But, things like, "Corellon Found the Elven race", or "Sehanine Moonbow is a god of the moon" don't apply to the Realms because (Corellon created the Elves, and Sehanine Moonbow is a female). Among other things, of course.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 03:20 AM	and Sehanine Moonbow is a female Sehanine being referred to as a god doesn't mean she got a sex change. For instance, this is from the article where we got the stats for Elves from. When the drow rebelled against their kin, under the leadership of the god Lolth Does anyone really think that Lolth is going to become a man because of that? The decision to refers to all gods as gods irregardless of gender is like referring to all Sorcerers as Sorcerers, irregardless of gender. Is there a single female Sorcerer in D&D who's been referred to as a Sorceress? That doesn't mean that they're packing heat in their pants, though.
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 03:23 AM	Does anyone really think that Lolth is going to become a man because of that? That doesn't mean that they're packing heat in their pants, though. -With Lolth, you never know. Those might be seven legs, and one...:eek:
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 03:24 AM	:rofl:
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 03:28 AM	-Hmm...Need a good name for that Lolthite heresy...:thinks:
Storm_Silverhand 12-22-07, 07:35 AM	Heya, I got a very Shar vs Selune vibe from that article. Perhaps Shar is about to absorb Lolth :rolleyes:, and we know Sehanine and Selune are probably one and the same deity... Maybe Eilistraee will merge with her (Sehanine/Selune) too, I mean she is a moon god after all. (Calling female deities "gods" kind of bothers me for some reason.) It's all very interesting, and I like some of the ideas they've come up with... but it's not the Realms. :(
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 08:01 AM	Perhaps Shar is about to absorb Lolth :rolleyes:, and we know Sehanine and Selune are probably one and the same deity... Maybe Eilistraee will merge with her (Sehanine/Selune) too, I mean she is a moon god after all. I don't think you need to worry about Eilistraee. While it sucks that they've been cutting down the Drow Pantheon, it seems as if they're reducing it to solely Lolth and Eilistraee. I'm betting Eilistraee will be sticking around for a good long while. As for the whole moon thing, Sehanine is the Goddess of the Full Moon, and Lolth is the Goddess of the New Moon, while Eilistraee is the Goddess of Moonlight. Not the same thing in each case, so no reason to merge them. Although I gotta say, I am concerned that they're going to make Shar and Lolth one and the same. Especially since the two of them have different alignments (NE vs CE). Nevermind that Shar has never struck me as a huge fan of spiders.
Kenzuki 12-22-07, 09:39 AM	I think this is pretty interesting, though it does make me think they are basing Eladrin and Elves off the Warcraftian Night Elves and High Elves, who act just like their Elves and Eladrin seem to. The Elves are the more natury minded people with druidism etc like the Night Elves, while the Eladrin are masters of the arcane and build proud cities and such like the High Elves. They ARE merging Shar and Lolth???
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 10:20 AM	They ARE merging Shar and Lolth??? And this is how rumors start. :P There's no evidence whatsoever that that's what's happening. That's just my concern, based on what we know so far.
AskaniPsion 12-22-07, 01:06 PM	And this is how rumors start. :P There's no evidence whatsoever that that's what's happening. That's just my concern, based on what we know so far. No way will Shar take over Lolth - Lolth is way too popular....oh wait I forgot that in FR Shar can do anything :mad: Personally I hope Shar falls....a big backlash of karma for killing Mystra. When the Shadow Weave is destroyed, Shar goes with it also. Too bad it looks like we won't be able to get the stats for the 4E Drow until the FR book comes out :( I do love the eladrin/drow/elves/fey connection.
Zanan 12-22-07, 01:35 PM	I think this is pretty interesting, though it does make me think they are basing Eladrin and Elves off the Warcraftian Night Elves and High Elves, who act just like their Elves and Eladrin seem to. No no no! How dare you comparing 4E with World of Warcraft?! 4E is the "Better, faster, cooler, and more powerful" - E of D&D, nothing WoWish! :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:28 PM	-With Lolth, you never know. Those might be seven legs, and one...:eek: -Ah, I got it. It originated in the Underdark near and in Kara-Tur, so it is known as the 'Beeg Dik' heresy. They ARE merging Shar and Lolth??? -Doubtful, though in some places, Lolth and Shar are worshipped as one.
Storm_Silverhand 12-22-07, 06:33 PM	Heya, I don't think you need to worry about Eilistraee. While it sucks that they've been cutting down the Drow Pantheon, it seems as if they're reducing it to solely Lolth and Eilistraee. I'm betting Eilistraee will be sticking around for a good long while. In the "100 years in the future" prologue for the Orc King, Drizzt seems to imply something tragic has happened to Eilistraee and her followers. Some kind of big setback that means that no followers of Eilistraee can be found on the surface. Personally, I don't want to see her brought down by her brother's influence and continue to live as a... ahem... shadow of her former self. I'd rather see her dead (or merged with Selune/Sehanine), frankly. In my Realms, Eilistraee is going to help Mystra survive the assassination attempt by Cyric, and in the process lose the taint of her brother. As for the whole moon thing, Sehanine is the Goddess of the Full Moon, and Lolth is the Goddess of the New Moon, while Eilistraee is the Goddess of Moonlight. Not the same thing in each case, so no reason to merge them. Although I gotta say, I am concerned that they're going to make Shar and Lolth one and the same. Especially since the two of them have different alignments (NE vs CE). Nevermind that Shar has never struck me as a huge fan of spiders. The Full Moon/New Moon thing is what makes me think they'll be making Lolth and Shar just different aspects of the same god... dess. *sigh* (You know, I shouldn't be bothered by calling female deities gods, because goddess is the diminutive form of god... but I am... It will certainly make distinguishing deities with ambiguous names hard - For example... Red Knight is the god of Tactics... if you didn't know her gender you might assume Red Knight is male...) Anyway, umm... Yeah, I know they're different, but not so different that WotC might not merge them anyway. After all, they want to compact the pantheon down to about 20 or 30 major gods, and everyone else will be worshiper-less demigods or saints. That means they'll be using every excuse to get rid of deities who are even vaguely similar to others... At least that's my reading of the situation, but I'm bitter, paranoid, and angry... so what would I know?
GothicDan 12-22-07, 07:29 PM	I always specify god vs. goddess. If anything, I'd use 'deity' or 'divinity' if I wanted a truly gender-neutral term. That being said... Yeah. Setting up for another Selune vs. Shar look-alike. And to think I actually liked all of the involved deities before 4E got around to them. Ah, well. I'll just be silently (mostly) sad again. :)
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:04 AM	I always specify god vs. goddess. If anything, I'd use 'deity' or 'divinity' if I wanted a truly gender-neutral term. -Me too. I like "it", like in Ghaundaur's case.
MerrikCale 12-23-07, 12:26 PM	I think Eilistraee will die at the end of the Lady Pentinent series and Selune will welcome the "good" drow into the fold. Just a theory.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 12:40 PM	I think Eilistraee will die at the end of the Lady Pentinent series and Selune will welcome the "good" drow into the fold. Just a theory. -While I don't like that, we do know that something happens to Eilistraee's clergy. Presumably, this means something happens to Eilistraee herself. -I don't like that it seems that the Eilistraee/Lolth "feud" is morphing into an angle of the Shar/Selūne "fued".
Kenzuki 12-23-07, 04:38 PM	Maybe Eilistraee shouldn't have bitten off more than she could chew with her mom.... But it's ok, cuz I'm tired of good winning all the time. Seeing good deities dying while the evil ones are becoming stronger is a welcome change in my opinion. Having good win all the time is boring imho...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 04:54 PM	From another thread: I've said it before and I'll say it again--all the new lore about elves (fey?) is wonderful for a custom, non-FR campaign setting. This part creeped me out though: The elves as a race were neither good nor evil -- they didn't think in those terms. They enjoyed beauty and pleasure, and many of them found pleasure in kindness and beauty in every facet of life, and so acted in good ways. Still, they might inflict pain or even death, not out of cruelty, but purely out of curiosity. Ick! :yuck: That just makes me think of something like "I stuck a knife in its heart just to see what would happen..." Sounds like something out of a horror movie (or a psychological thriller). Also, the drow are mentioned as having "blank white eyes", and the accompanying picture, while quite beautifully done, also shows orbs with no pupils. Are they saying drow won't have pupils? Also, I love the artwork and enjoyed the legend featured in the "Noble Eladrin" section.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 04:57 PM	Heya, I got a very Shar vs Selune vibe from that article. It's all very interesting, and I like some of the ideas they've come up with... but it's not the Realms. :( I agree on both points. I would love this new lore for use in a custom, non-FR setting.
18DELTA 12-24-07, 12:27 AM	I just noticed this. I wonder what they were smoking at the time. Bold added! Many elves still revere Corellon and (particularly) Sehanine, but many others worship Melora, god of the wilds where they make their homes. Even those elves who drift toward evil rarely turn to Lolth. The legend of her rebellion stings too much. Instead, they worship the Raven Queen, Zehir, or occasionally savage Gruumsh. WTF!!!:confused: Elves that could possibly WORSHIP GRUUMSH?:eek: That is like a bad trip! WTF!!!:rolleyes: Orc kissers :yuck: :ahem: :noway: :blush: :uh-huh: :rant: :nonono: :censored: :headexplo :banghead:
AskaniPsion 12-24-07, 12:50 AM	I just noticed this. I wonder what they were smoking at the time. Bold added! WTF!!!:confused: Elves that could possibly WORSHIP GRUUMSH?:eek: That is like a bad trip! WTF!!!:rolleyes: Orc kissers :yuck: :ahem: :noway: :blush: :uh-huh: :rant: :nonono: :censored: :headexplo :banghead: Uggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggg WHY would elves worship Gruumsh?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :nonono: :rant: :banghead: :hoppingma
Storm_Silverhand 12-24-07, 07:27 AM	Heya, Because, obviously, Gruumsh isn't going to be just that orc god anymore. And by god, I mean god... Gruumsh isn't a goddess. :incog:
Alediran 12-24-07, 08:46 AM	Uggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggggggg WHY would elves worship Gruumsh?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :nonono: :rant: :banghead: :hoppingma I add my opinion below: :yuck: :pbbbtt: :noway: :uh-huh: :nonono: :rant: :tantrum: :headexplo :hoppingma :shocked: :doh: :gah: :twitch: :looloo: :crazy: :OMG!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-24-07, 09:14 AM	Well, that's life with the 4E rules.:)
Rauric 12-24-07, 09:25 AM	Heh, well I am ignoring all of that. I will use the elf pantheon. Correleon is just going to be the main elf bloke and he will get all of the "god juice" that his pantheon gets by other elves praying to them. It may say otherwise in the FR book but I think that works for me. Unless I love their ideas and it blows mine out of the water.
Zanan 12-24-07, 11:48 AM	AM I right in assuming that this Raven Queen Zehir comes from Heroes of Might & Magic (V), as someone noted the other day?
Kenzuki 12-24-07, 12:32 PM	Which would be worse for an elf, Gruumsh or Lolth?
Alediran 12-24-07, 12:51 PM	Which would be worse for an elf, Gruumsh or Lolth? Gruumsh without a doubt.
AskaniPsion 12-24-07, 12:52 PM	Gruumsh without a doubt. Yeah Gruumsh - it would be unthinkable to an elf
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-24-07, 01:01 PM	Apparently, worshipping 4E Gruumsh isn't unthinkable to 4E elves though.:) Don't know how it will be done in the FR setting, of course.
Kenzuki 12-24-07, 02:04 PM	I would think it would be Lolth personally. Gruumsh is just your god's old enemy, while Lolth is his ex-wife who betrayed your people and forever sundered your race in twain.
18DELTA 12-24-07, 07:11 PM	Heya, Because, obviously, Gruumsh isn't going to be just that orc god anymore. And by god, I mean god... Gruumsh isn't a goddess. :incog: I think Rich said that Talos and Gruumsh are one and the same. Being one eyed Gods of Destruction and all. I could get behind Elves worshipping Talos, but Gruumsh :yuck: :rolleye2: :raincloud :surrender :allalone: :ahem: :noway: :bored: :blush: :uh-huh: :rant: :nonono: :tantrum: :headexplo :banghead: :hoppingma ! Thats like Dwarves worshipping Gruumsh :eek:
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 02:06 AM	-To all of this "Elves worshipping Gruumsh nonsense": "Whaaat-Evvver!"
Storm_Silverhand 12-25-07, 02:11 AM	Heya, AM I right in assuming that this Raven Queen Zehir comes from Heroes of Might & Magic (V), as someone noted the other day? First up, Raven Queen and Zehir are two different deities. So I just went and did some quick googling, and here's what I came up with... Nothing that I saw says that the Raven Queen is from Heroes of Might and Magic V... But there are plenty of Raven goddesses in our own mythology, so the presence of two unrelated Raven Queens in two different fantasy mythologies wouldn't surprise me. The Raven has a container ship load of symbolic baggage from Earth Mythology... I'm guessing some kind of war goddess... But who knows? Zehir is supposedly a god of night in 4e Core (a gender ambiguous name referred to as a god, I don't know if it's male or female), according to stuff that appears to be from EN World... So perhaps we're looking at the face of the new/core Shar? (That is pure speculation just on the one sentence I've read, so don't take it as fact because it absolutely is not.)
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 02:12 AM	Nothing that I saw says that the Raven Queen is from Heroes of Might and Magic V... -Does WotC own, in any way, the company that owns Heroes of Might and Magic? If not, they couldn't use this deity without running into some intellectual property infringements.
Storm_Silverhand 12-25-07, 02:13 AM	Heya, -Does WotC own, in any way, the company that owns Heroes of Might and Magic? If not, they couldn't use this deity without running into some intellectual property infringements. That is exactly what I was thinking... As far as I know, they don't. :) But that doesn't entirely rule out parallel development.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 02:16 AM	That is exactly what I was thinking... As far as I know, they don't. :) But that doesn't entirely rule out parallel development. -Eh..."Raven Queen" is both ambiguous and specific, if you know what I mean. I guess it all would boil down to the characters backstory, if anyone was taken to court or anything.
AskaniPsion 12-25-07, 12:30 PM	Heya, Zehir is supposedly a god of night in 4e Core (a gender ambiguous name referred to as a god, I don't know if it's male or female), according to stuff that appears to be from EN World... So perhaps we're looking at the face of the new/core Shar? (That is pure speculation just on the one sentence I've read, so don't take it as fact because it absolutely is not.) Why don't they just give Night Domain to Lolth since she is the Goddess of the New Moon anyway? Why add another god, Zehir?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-25-07, 01:26 PM	I would think it would be Lolth personally. Gruumsh is just your god's old enemy... But there might be a different backstory this time around.:)
Zanan 12-25-07, 02:08 PM	Core cosmology / mythology does not need to resemble FR cosmology, so we may have to wait till the FRCS is out to find out more. More of what is important for these parts of the messageboards.
Gimric 12-25-07, 03:02 PM	Yeah Gruumsh - it would be unthinkable to an elf Elves could worship Gruumsh but then they'd be ORCS... but wait isn't that from some other fantasy setting/book series... hmmmm...
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 03:40 PM	Elves could worship Gruumsh but then they'd be ORCS... but wait isn't that from some other fantasy setting/book series... hmmmm... -Be careful. WotC has bats, and they hit anyone who they hear making that comparison. Watch your back.
Storm_Silverhand 12-25-07, 05:12 PM	Heya, Why don't they just give Night Domain to Lolth since she is the Goddess of the New Moon anyway? Why add another god, Zehir? Okay, first of all, why give Night to the New Moon? The Full Moon has just as strong a claim to Night by that logic. Anyway Night and the New Moon aren't the same. Night is the period of a day that stretches between dusk and dawn, where the sun is on the other side of the planet. A New Moon.. ahem... *quotes from Wikipedia* "the New Moon is the lunar phase that occurs when the Moon, in its monthly orbital motion around Earth, lies between Earth and the Sun, and is therefore in conjunction with the Sun as seen from Earth. At this time, the illuminated half of the Moon faces directly toward the Sun, and the dark or unilluminated portion of the Moon faces directly toward Earth, so that the Moon is invisible as seen from Earth." We're basically missing an aspect of the Moon. Usually when you have the full and new moons represented, there's a third aspect... You know, the whole maiden/mother/crone thing.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 06:20 PM	-Giving Lolth any part of the Moon is silly, in my opinion.
Storm_Silverhand 12-26-07, 01:45 AM	Heya, -Giving Lolth any part of the Moon is silly, in my opinion. I agree. From what I've seen it looks like they're setting up Lolth vs Sehanine to parallel Shar vs Selune, probably in order to merge the four deities into two. Of course, they might come out with more information later that will contradict that, and if that happens I'll be breathing a sigh of relief.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 01:50 AM	From what I've seen it looks like they're setting up Lolth vs Sehanine to parallel Shar vs Selune, probably in order to merge the four deities into two. Of course, they might come out with more information later that will contradict that, and if that happens I'll be breathing a sigh of relief. -If they can pull all that off while staying true to the actual backstories and histories of all parties involved...Well, that'd be something. Impossible, perhaps. But, just maybe...
Zanan 12-26-07, 04:13 AM	On a sidenote ... I have no real problem if certain deities are "clustered", so that there is "one base deity" with the portfolio of storms and destruction, one which the orcs address as Gruumsh, the humans as Talos and the Elves with another name*. The races as such need not to know that this is actually one and the same deity, even might have different mythologies linked to their respective deities. Though if it was up to me, I'd give these deities either no names at all, or special, non-racially linked names. It would be ridiculous to make e.g. Gruumsh or Selūne Elven deities, when all lore so far linked them to a certain race. Something like The Destructor or the Moon Goddess would be more appropriate. Obviously, there should be some room for special racial deities, deities linked to one certain aspect of a certain race - and no better example springs to mind than Lolth. For she has virtually no ties to anything but her own race. (Same, BTW, goes for Corellon.) Maybe a list of Racial Patrons, Father and Mother gods.** *Same with "a moon goddess". BTW, within the Realms, the drow of the Forest of Mir were once (Empires of the Sands - though partly retconned in Lands of Intrigue (Vhaeraun)) said to worship a deity called Bhaelros, a Calishite alias of Talos. ** All the above are Boxing Day morning musings ...
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 04:37 AM	On a sidenote ... I have no real problem if certain deities are "clustered", so that there is "one base deity" with the portfolio of storms and destruction, one which the orcs address as Gruumsh, the humans as Talos and the Elves with another name*. The races as such need not to know that this is actually one and the same deity, even might have different mythologies linked to their respective deities. Though if it was up to me, I'd give these deities either no names at all, or special, non-racially linked names. It would be ridiculous to make e.g. Gruumsh or Selūne Elven deities, when all lore so far linked them to a certain race. Something like The Destructor or the Moon Goddess would be more appropriate. Obviously, there should be some room for special racial deities, deities linked to one certain aspect of a certain race - and no better example springs to mind than Lolth. For she has virtually no ties to anything but her own race. (Same, BTW, goes for Corellon.) Maybe a list of Racial Patrons, Father and Mother gods.** *Same with "a moon goddess". BTW, within the Realms, the drow of the Forest of Mir were once (Empires of the Sands - though partly retconned in Lands of Intrigue (Vhaeraun)) said to worship a deity called Bhaelros, a Calishite alias of Talos. ** All the above are Boxing Day morning musings ... -The problem comes when you mix two deities who already have backstories/histories, and ones that are extremely important, to boot. Take Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne, for instance. If Sehanine Moonbow is actually Selūne, and the Sehanine Moonbow history is the correct one, that means that the Shar/Selūne creation myth is incorrect, as Sehanine Moonbow is an interloper deity. If the history for Selūne is the correct one, that means that the entire creation of the Elven race by the blood of Corellon Larethian and the tears of Sehanine Moonbow is in doubt, since we know that they were not created in Realmspace. Either way, something essential is being screwed up at some point.
Fabius Maximus 12-26-07, 07:14 AM	But how is it important which creation myth is the right one? How does it affect your games?
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 07:16 AM	But how is it important which creation myth is the right one? How does it affect your games? -I don't play games. I care about continuity. -It has an impact on the setting as a whole. Either the entire Shar-Selūne-Mystryl angle is untrue, or the entire history of the Elven race is untrue. Either way, there are some serious consequences for merging these two deities. And then, of course, there are the consequences of merging other deities (ie, Shar and Lolth, Talos and Gruumsh, etc.)
GothicDan 12-26-07, 10:55 AM	Then there's the fact that Talos shares no actual portfolios with Gruumsh...
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 11:01 AM	Then there's the fact that Talos shares no actual portfolios with Gruumsh... -Blockheadedness?
GothicDan 12-26-07, 11:12 AM	That's but a trait! And I like Talos about 100 times more than Gruumsh. :)
AskaniPsion 12-26-07, 12:07 PM	And I like Talos about 100 times more than Gruumsh. :) Hehe I think EVERYONE probably feels that way.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 12:15 PM	I would think so. I love storms, infernos, volcanoes, etc. - all the forces of natural destruction. I hate Orcs.
AskaniPsion 12-26-07, 12:34 PM	I would think so. I love storms, infernos, volcanoes, etc. - all the forces of natural destruction. I hate Orcs. They should just have Corellon slay Grummie and have the orcs worship Talos. Or even better have Lolth trick Grummie which ends up him getting killed by Corellon.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 12:39 PM	Yes. Using the WotC mindset, it would further the inevitable conclusion between Corellon and Gruumsh or something, just like Shar/Mystra (even though it was Shar and SELUNE that had the age-old struggle, NOT Shar and Mystra).
Zanan 12-26-07, 05:36 PM	On another sidenote ... make sure that you differentiate between "real" deity history and "mythology". We all have taken in the storeis of the Faiths & Avatars series et al as actual fact. That is, the "real" lives of the deities and all. T'could well be that the Wizards decide that this essentially is simply the mythology as believed by the Faerūnians, not actual fact. Just as food for thought ... and not something I would easily agree to.
GreenKnight 12-26-07, 07:22 PM	-It has an impact on the setting as a whole. Either the entire Shar-Selūne-Mystryl angle is untrue, or the entire history of the Elven race is untrue. Either way, there are some serious consequences for merging these two deities. And then, of course, there are the consequences of merging other deities (ie, Shar and Lolth, Talos and Gruumsh, etc.) You think that's bad? I'm still trying to figure out how Kezef the Chaos Hound took off Tyr's hand in Faerunian legend when it was Fenris who took off Tyr's hand in Norse legend.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 08:18 PM	Because planar events aren't always perceived entirely the same from one Prime to another. I, for one, think that Fenris and Kezef are merely aspects of the same cosmic creature, sort of like different aspects of multispheric deities. Or Kezef bit off Tyr's FAERUNIAN aspect's hand, and not his Earth one's.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 12:02 AM	You think that's bad? I'm still trying to figure out how Kezef the Chaos Hound took off Tyr's hand in Faerunian legend when it was Fenris who took off Tyr's hand in Norse legend. -It's simple. The Norwegians have no clue what they're talking about! ;)
Fabius Maximus 12-27-07, 08:01 AM	-I don't play games. I care about continuity. -It has an impact on the setting as a whole. Either the entire Shar-Selūne-Mystryl angle is untrue, or the entire history of the Elven race is untrue. Either way, there are some serious consequences for merging these two deities. And then, of course, there are the consequences of merging other deities (ie, Shar and Lolth, Talos and Gruumsh, etc.) Sorry, but from a game perspective, the changes make actually sense. Like Zanan said: the former information will probably be mythology only. (And I say that the information will be ambivalent, like in Eberron.) There are two tiers of information: What we know as players, and what the various characters know. I don't give a flying **** about continuity if the changes only affect my personal knowledge. As long as my characters can profit from the rich mythology laid down in earlier books, I'm happy. And frankly said: the designers should not care about continuity if only the knowledge of a few selfish readers/players is affected. D&D is a game first and foremost. The fluff has to make sense in that regard, and nothing else.
Valgard 12-27-07, 09:06 AM	Sorry, but from a game perspective, the changes make actually sense. Like Zanan said: the former information will probably be mythology only. (And I say that the information will be ambivalent, like in Eberron.) There are two tiers of information: What we know as players, and what the various characters know. I don't give a flying **** about continuity if the changes only affect my personal knowledge. As long as my characters can profit from the rich mythology laid down in earlier books, I'm happy. And frankly said: the designers should not care about continuity if only the knowledge of a few selfish readers/players is affected. D&D is a game first and foremost. The fluff has to make sense in that regard, and nothing else. I do NOT agree with you. If Wizards only cares about game playing and not game lore, they shouldn't be writing anything for any campaign setting... present core rulebooks with no info about planes, or deities, or history and hang on. Then, if they were making a freakin' good new stuff, I will let them go unharmed, but they are basically picking up the stuff they like most and merging it together... the only innovations they are making are used to explain these simplifications. And they are not only making it with deities, also the planes are getting this up. And, in my opinion, I do not agree with 'do not take that seriously, that's only a myth', because we are playing in a mythic world. Let me explain it: If you take as 'true' a world that has elves and dwarves and dragons and demons, then I don't find any reason to treat as false a story about 'two powerful entities battling for their new created world' or 'a race created from the blood and tears of two other entities'. If you read the Ainulindalė and the Valaquenta (in the Silmarillion by Tolkien), all that stuff is supposed to be in the same line as the War of the Ring. That's a myth only for us, people in Earth, but not for them. For instance, the people in Middle Earth do not only believe in Eru Ilśvatar, the Valar, or Morgoth... they exist in that world and the creation of the world by the Ainur is a fact. Just my :twocents:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-27-07, 09:37 AM	Also, the Forgetten Realms is as much as story setting as a game setting...if not more so.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:56 PM	Sorry, but from a game perspective, the changes make actually sense. Like Zanan said: the former information will probably be mythology only. (And I say that the information will be ambivalent, like in Eberron.) -I wholly disagree. Take Shevarash, for instance. We know when he did as a mortal, when he died, the circumstance surrounding his death, and how he became a deity. That is hard, set in stone, canon. If Shevarash is altered to, say, become an aspect of...Hoar, or whomever else, that would be spitting in the face of facts. In a fantastical setting, such as the Realms, myths are normally based on some grain of truth. For example, Shar and Mystra, and Shar and Selūne are mortal enemies. This reflects some truth to the commonly believed creation myth. Corellon Larethian is the Coronal of Arvandor, and Sehanine Moonbow is his consort. This reflects some truth to the commonly believed Elven origin myth. I don't give a flying **** about continuity if the changes only affect my personal knowledge. As long as my characters can profit from the rich mythology laid down in earlier books, I'm happy. -I'm sorry for you then. D&D is a game first and foremost. -And the Forgotten Realms are a story, first and foremost.
Green Elven Vampire 12-27-07, 02:08 PM	That article doesn't even follow FR lore and history. They better not try to retcon that into the Realms. Ohh yeah, be careful, the WizO's are on the prowl looking for anyone even criticizing the new products or game designers. Pretty soon we won't even be able to give our negative opinions without punishment.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 02:10 PM	That article doesn't even follow FR lore and history. They better not try to retcon that into the Realms. -We're not talking about articles. We're talking about statements made by Rich Baker, specifically about the Realms (ie, Sehanine Moonbow is Selūne, and there will be a 'trimming down' of "less important" deities).
Green Elven Vampire 12-27-07, 02:29 PM	-We're not talking about articles. We're talking about statements made by Rich Baker, specifically about the Realms (ie, Sehanine Moonbow is Selūne, and there will be a 'trimming down' of "less important" deities). Ohh... yeah, I've said my thoughts on that nightmare already. And "less important" deities? Less important to whom? to the game designers who don't even truly play in the setting? The designers have made such a costly mess.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 02:31 PM	And "less important" deities? Less important to whom? -Mostly the designers who have deemed them, for whatever reason, "less important". That especially sucks for the priest/priestess of said deities, who consider said deities the most important thing of their lives.
Zanan 12-27-07, 03:00 PM	Ohh yeah, be careful, the WizO's are on the prowl looking for anyone even criticizing the new products or game designers. Pretty soon we won't even be able to give our negative opinions without punishment. I'd doubt that. BTW, keep in mind that we don't know that many facts as yet. Who knows what will exactly happen to the deities, especially the FR specific ones. BTW II, Lord Karsus, Tyr and Co. are hardly stuff the Norwegians developed or created. These deities and their mythology started off hundreds of years before anyone called himself Norwegian. :P
GothicDan 12-27-07, 03:28 PM	Mmm, Proto-Indo-European archetypes. :) Tyr was the pre-Odinic Sky-father archetype, I believe (Indra, Zeus, J/Zeus-Pater/Piter, etc.) I must say I prefer Odin.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 03:37 PM	BTW II, Lord Karsus, Tyr and Co. are hardly stuff the Norwegians developed or created. These deities and their mythology started off hundreds of years before anyone called himself Norwegian. :P -I never said they did. I was responding to a specific query by GreenKnight that brough up Norwegians.
GreenKnight 12-27-07, 04:40 PM	Because planar events aren't always perceived entirely the same from one Prime to another. I, for one, think that Fenris and Kezef are merely aspects of the same cosmic creature, sort of like different aspects of multispheric deities. God, I hope not! I don't like the idea of Kezef=Fenris, or being tied to Loki. Not to mention that in Asgardian myth, he should still be tied up, etc. Or Kezef bit off Tyr's FAERUNIAN aspect's hand, and not his Earth one's. If that's the case, then one can only imagine how that went down. "Hey guys. I got this great idea for taking care of Kezef. We could try binding him with a magic rope, and..." *looks at where his stump was in his Asgardian aspect* "...nevermind". -It's simple. The Norwegians have no clue what they're talking about! ;) Blame it all on the Norwegians, huh? Besides, isn't there an article saying that Tyr was a member of the Asgardian Pantheon first, and went to Faerun after feeling that he was being muscled out of Asgard? Clearly it's the Faerunians trying to rip off the Norwegians, rather then the other way around. :P
Storm_Silverhand 12-27-07, 04:52 PM	Heya, If that's the case, then one can only imagine how that went down. "Hey guys. I got this great idea for taking care of Kezef. We could try binding him with a magic rope, and..." *looks at where his stump was in his Asgardian aspect* "...nevermind". He would be, except sometime after the Time of Troubles Kezef was freed. (I think it was after the ToT... I think it had something to do with Lord Chess of Zhentil Keep and Mask, but it's been a while... I think it's detailed in Prince of Lies.)
GreenKnight 12-27-07, 05:04 PM	Yeah, it was Prince of Lies where he got freed. And like I said, I prefer not making them the same, myself. I much prefer the idea of Jergal creating Kezef over making him in any way related to Loki, Asgardian myth, Ragnarok, or anything of the sort. After all, if Fenris=Kezef, then Ragnarok should've gotten started, Kezef/Fenris should be dead, Tyr should've gotten killed by that other mutt, etc. Thanks but no thanks. Keep your Asgardian Chocolate out of my Faerunian Peanut Butter. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-27-07, 06:01 PM	And "less important" deities? Less important to whom? to the game designers who don't even truly play in the setting? OK, I can agree with you there, the idea that some deities are just "less important", period, seems faulty to me. "Less important to whom?"--indeed. But I do NOT agree with you that the Wiz_Os are out to get anyone who criticizes the upcoming 4E products. I've seen no evidence of such a thing.
Fabius Maximus 12-27-07, 06:04 PM	I do NOT agree with you. If Wizards only cares about game playing and not game lore, they shouldn't be writing anything for any campaign setting... present core rulebooks with no info about planes, or deities, or history and hang on.You got me wrong. Game lore should make sense for players, not the other way around. ...also the planes are getting this up.I used to be angry about the planes, but I can easily brush the idea of the Astral Sea aside if it doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't change my game or how my characters think about the planes (if at all), it is just another model of thought. And, in my opinion, I do not agree with 'do not take that seriously, that's only a myth', because we are playing in a mythic world. Let me explain it: If you take as 'true' a world that has elves and dwarves and dragons and demons, then I don't find any reason to treat as false a story about 'two powerful entities battling for their new created world' or 'a race created from the blood and tears of two other entities'. If you read the Ainulindalė and the Valaquenta (in the Silmarillion by Tolkien), all that stuff is supposed to be in the same line as the War of the Ring. That's a myth only for us, people in Earth, but not for them. For instance, the people in Middle Earth do not only believe in Eru Ilśvatar, the Valar, or Morgoth... they exist in that world and the creation of the world by the Ainur is a fact. I don't exactly know what you mean here. How do they know it's a fact that the Ainur created the world? Just because they were told? Small human (or dwarven, or whatever) beings cannot know The Truth, because the scope of what happend is to large. It remains a myth. Yes, the earth exists, but you cannot be absolutely sure how it came to be. It is a matter of faith. That makes it a myth. -I wholly disagree. Take Shevarash, for instance. We know when he did as a mortal, when he died, the circumstance surrounding his death, and how he became a deity. That is hard, set in stone, canon. If Shevarash is altered to, say, become an aspect of...Hoar, or whomever else, that would be spitting in the face of facts.Or maybe the facts are wrong. Sheverash could have died for real. Then, some elves started to venerate him for his tenacity and his sacrifice. Sheverashs deeds in life were mystified, and Hoar started to grant his most devoted followers spells, who will never know that, because Hoar would loose followers. Something like that happened before. Ibrandul and Shar. Tchazzar and Tiamat. Entropy and Tiamat. Mielikki is venerated by elves under another name. And so on. Metaknowledge is irrelevant. Clinging to that knowledge and getting upset about the designers changing it is ultimatly selfish, because you don't want to understand and accept it. It has nothing to do with bad ideas. In a fantastical setting, such as the Realms, myths are normally based on some grain of truth. For example, Shar and Mystra, and Shar and Selūne are mortal enemies. This reflects some truth to the commonly believed creation myth. Corellon Larethian is the Coronal of Arvandor, and Sehanine Moonbow is his consort. This reflects some truth to the commonly believed Elven origin myth.No. That may only be what the people believe. The Truth may be out there, but can anyone really know it for real? (Damn. That zerth crap seems to be rubbing off. :D ) -And the Forgotten Realms are a story, first and foremost.That stopped when Greenwood sold his stuff to TSR.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-27-07, 06:05 PM	Yeah, it was Prince of Lies where he got freed. And like I said, I prefer not making them the same, myself. I much prefer the idea of Jergal creating Kezef over making him in any way related to Loki, Asgardian myth, Ragnarok, or anything of the sort. After all, if Fenris=Kezef, then Ragnarok should've gotten started, Kezef/Fenris should be dead, Tyr should've gotten killed by that other mutt, etc. Thanks but no thanks. Keep your Asgardian Chocolate out of my Faerunian Peanut Butter. ;) Heh, personally I don't see Tyr in the FR as being the exact same entity as the real world Tyr. Things just make more sense to me to see it that way--the FR Tyr is an aspect of the real world Tyr who happened to be born out of the same archetypes. Or something like that.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-27-07, 06:09 PM	Metaknowledge is irrelevant. Clinging to that knowledge and getting upset about the designers changing it is ultimatly selfish, because you don't want to understand and accept it. Nothing wrong with being selfish in this case--it's not hurting anybody.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-27-07, 06:11 PM	That stopped when Greenwood sold his stuff to TSR. I wouldn't say it stopped. Even the 4E design team is saying stuff like "we have a story to tell, here".
GothicDan 12-27-07, 10:21 PM	[QUOTE]Metaknowledge is irrelevant. Clinging to that knowledge and getting upset about the designers changing it is ultimatly selfish, because you don't want to understand and accept it. It has nothing to do with bad ideas. [/QUOTE I'm selfish about not accepting bad ideas. Simple. We're all selfish. Anyone who denies it will immediately lose credit in my view for any further arguments.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 11:35 PM	Or maybe the facts are wrong. -Facts specifically stated in 3e "omniscient" canon are not incorrect (as much as I would like them to be, sometimes- the Sundering, for example). Metaknowledge is irrelevant. Clinging to that knowledge and getting upset about the designers changing it is ultimatly selfish, because you don't want to understand and accept it. It has nothing to do with bad ideas. -I'd understand it much more if it were all feasible- which most of it isn't. None of it was 'broken' (as in the saying), so randomly changing facts here and there (Say, Finder Wyvernspur is a deity, or Sun Elves are actually Eladrin) serves no purpose except for complicating and "mucking" things up. Give me one good reason why Selūne and Sehanine Moonbow need to be combined. -I have no problem accepting most of the newer ideas, that have been implemented in the early and latter points of 3e. I have no problem accepting the "well thought out" ideas that have been incorporated into the setting. The Risen Sun Heresy, and the fact that Aravae was murdered by a Starym. I have no problem accepting some other "less thought out" ideas that have been incorporated into the setting. The Shadow Weave and Star Elves, for example. I do have a problem accepting bad ideas, however. No. That may only be what the people believe. The Truth may be out there, but can anyone really know it for real? (Damn. That zerth crap seems to be rubbing off. :D ) -Yes, and like I said, belief almost always stems from some form of truth. If a priest/priestess of Sehanine Moonbow was preaching to his/her followers a blatently incorrect triusm (her origin), why wouldn't she stop said priest/priestess? Same with Corellon Larethian, Mystryl/Mystra, Selūne, Shevarash, and so on. That stopped when Greenwood sold his stuff to TSR. -Not hardly. If that were true, and the Realms were a D&D setting first, and a place to tell stories second, the setting would be more akin to Eberron- a "snapshot" at a specific point, with few or no metaplots going on, that does not change. However, as we all know, the Realms has sourcebooks that change it, and novels that change it.
Zanan 12-28-07, 09:20 AM	Tyr was the pre-Odinic Sky-father archetype, I believe (Indra, Zeus, J/Zeus-Pater/Piter, etc.) I must say I prefer Odin. Make sure you don't mix-up Tiwaz/Tiuz with "Tyr", who was just a Northern Germanic aspect of that deity. (BTW, for those interested, "Tuesday" is actually the "Day of Tiwaz/Tiuz".)
GothicDan 12-28-07, 11:08 AM	Well, as far as "mixing up" goes - they were obviously branches of the same base Northern Germanic deity... I don't think that it's folly to equate them! I sure do love the sound (literally) of Tiwaz. That being said... If GreenKnight doesn't like the idea of Tofo gods, he should talk to WotC. Sehanine/Selune my buttocks.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 12:32 PM	Sehanine/Selune my buttocks. -That's what he named them: left and right, respectivley. :D
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:37 PM	Terrible. You win at failing.
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 12:42 PM	-That's what he named them: left and right, respectivley. :D BWAHAHAHAHA!:rofl::rofl::rofl:
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:44 PM	*Maximized Delayed Blast Fireball.*
To11 12-28-07, 12:58 PM	Heya, But there are plenty of Raven goddesses in our own mythology, so the presence of two unrelated Raven Queens in two different fantasy mythologies wouldn't surprise me. The Raven has a container ship load of symbolic baggage from Earth Mythology... I'm guessing some kind of war goddess... But who knows? Zehir is supposedly a god of night in 4e Core (a gender ambiguous name referred to as a god, I don't know if it's male or female), according to stuff that appears to be from EN World... So perhaps we're looking at the face of the new/core Shar? (That is pure speculation just on the one sentence I've read, so don't take it as fact because it absolutely is not.) Races and Classes has some information on these gods, and I imagine that Worlds and Monsters will have more. The Raven Queen is the goddess of the natural cycle of life and Winter. Zehir, the god of night, is as far as I can tell masculine and was at one point referred to as Set during development. I think he will be the Core setting god of the Yuan-ti. This doesn't have anything to do with FR, I guess, but there you go.
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:58 PM	Set.. Wasn't the god of Night, at all.. *blinks.* Natural cycle and winter? Why not just the natural cycle, or winter? Stupid gods.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:09 PM	Terrible. You win at failing. -GreenKnight seems to think otherwise. And, hey, you said it, not me. I was just putting it in context, that's all. :cool:
GothicDan 12-28-07, 01:11 PM	Wrong context! Also: GreenKnight's on the OTHER list, remember?
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:22 PM	-I'm hungry and tired, what do you want?
GothicDan 12-28-07, 01:27 PM	Reprieve from boredom. Maybe I should read some more I, Claudius and finish the dishes.
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 01:27 PM	Wrong context! Also: GreenKnight's on the OTHER list, remember? I can be on whatever list I want to be on. I'm the G*DD*MN GREEN KNIGHT.
GothicDan 12-28-07, 01:28 PM	Exactly. You're not even an Archmage.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:34 PM	I can be on whatever list I want to be on. I'm the G*DD*MN GREEN KNIGHT. -Actually, no, you are the GreenKnight, not the Green Knight. If you were the Green Knight, there'd be a bunch of Tolkien-esque lawyers following you around. Worse than Merrik, them. For everyone's safety, including your own, you're the GreenKnight. ;)
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 01:43 PM	Damn it! Hoisted on my own unspaced petard.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 02:05 PM	-It happens. I was chummy with the Pen Knight, so you pick up things like this.
Fabius Maximus 12-30-07, 10:17 AM	-Facts specifically stated in 3e "omniscient" canon are not incorrect (as much as I would like them to be, sometimes- the Sundering, for example). But that only relates to metaknowledge, which is still irrelevant. Important is what the people in the Realms believe. The elves believe Sheverash became a deity. They don't know it for a fact, because there can be no proof for it. We may know that Sheverash ascended. If they change that for the next edition, the whole thing still works in the Realms. It's just that you have to wrap your head around it. -I'd understand it much more if it were all feasible- which most of it isn't. None of it was 'broken' (as in the saying), so randomly changing facts here and there (Say, Finder Wyvernspur is a deity, or Sun Elves are actually Eladrin) serves no purpose except for complicating and "mucking" things up. Give me one good reason why Selūne and Sehanine Moonbow need to be combined. As far as I know, Finder is a deity, and sun elves won't be called Eladrin. Eladrin is just the description for the race in the context of core D&D. They're just changing the racial game features, just like they did when 3e came around. As far as Sehanine and Selune are concerned, how make two different moon deities sense? Are they sharing their domain? Gods sharing power? Why would Selune grant Sehanines followers access to the moon domain? It's her very own area of influence, because she is the moon. -Yes, and like I said, belief almost always stems from some form of truth.So God exists? Good to know. Could you please share your knowledge and show proof of his existence to me? If a priest/priestess of Sehanine Moonbow was preaching to his/her followers a blatently incorrect triusm (her origin), why wouldn't she stop said priest/priestess? Same with Corellon Larethian, Mystryl/Mystra, Selūne, Shevarash, and so on. Why would they? They'd be loosing worshippers. They need worshippers. Truth doesn't matter here. Faith does. -Not hardly. If that were true, and the Realms were a D&D setting first, and a place to tell stories second, the setting would be more akin to Eberron- a "snapshot" at a specific point, with few or no metaplots going on, that does not change. However, as we all know, the Realms has sourcebooks that change it, and novels that change it. Sorry, but that doesn't hold. Almost all big RPG settings are story-driven, with sourcebooks and novels developing metaplots further. And that's not because of their identity as backdrop for stories, but because of marketing reasons.
Zanan 12-30-07, 10:21 AM	BTW ... should they adopt this deity-clustering within the Realms too, it would mean (IMHO) a power increase for some deities - relative to others. You see, if we have just one moon goddess, she would essentially get all the worshippers' "power", not the "split" attention of a Sehanine and a Selūne.
Storm_Silverhand 12-30-07, 05:47 PM	Heya, As far as Sehanine and Selune are concerned, how make two different moon deities sense? Are they sharing their domain? Gods sharing power? Why would Selune grant Sehanines followers access to the moon domain? It's her very own area of influence, because she is the moon. How about in this context... Artemis and Diana were not the same deities even though they might have been similar (and people often say that they are, but they're actually not). Arianrhod is also different, but is also a moon goddess... Then we have Tsuki-Yomi, a moon god obviously different to the others and male to boot. There's the Moon in Norse mythology who was male also, I do believe... I am sure I could dig out a large number of others if I tried. But see where I'm going there? The Earth has a multitude of pantheons with a multitude of deities with overlapping "portfolios". Faerun has multiple pantheons, it wouldn't be surprising to find different deities with the same portfolios, the fact that there isn't (in 4th Ed) is really strange to me. IMHO they're making a mistake merging deities and culling the deity list... they are making it all less realistic.
Fabius Maximus 12-30-07, 06:51 PM	But see where I'm going there? The Earth has a multitude of pantheons with a multitude of deities with overlapping "portfolios". Faerun has multiple pantheons, it wouldn't be surprising to find different deities with the same portfolios, the fact that there isn't (in 4th Ed) is really strange to me. IMHO they're making a mistake merging deities and culling the deity list... they are making it all less realistic. The only difference is that in the FR gods are supposed to be real existing entities. That creates problems with multiple gods having the same area of influence.
Storm_Silverhand 12-30-07, 10:44 PM	Heya, The only difference is that in the FR gods are supposed to be real existing entities. That creates problems with multiple gods having the same area of influence. One person's mythology is another person's religion. That's all I'm going to say to that.
GothicDan 12-30-07, 11:22 PM	As atheistic as I am, Storm/Zandi makes the perfect point here.
Fabius Maximus 12-31-07, 12:12 PM	One person's mythology is another person's religion. That's all I'm going to say to that. Yes, people's beliefs is not affected by it. But the power of the gods is. By rights, Selune should have kicked Sehanine's behind for infringing on her territory.
Dark Wizard 12-31-07, 04:33 PM	One reason why I think stat'ing out the gods was a mistake.
GothicDan 12-31-07, 10:17 PM	By rights, Selune should have kicked Sehanine's behind for infringing on her territory. How? AO made the deific boundaries for the various pantheons. Sehanine was always part of the Seldarine - there's no indication that Selune could have done anything, as soon as the first Elf gave prayer to Sehanine and AO granted Sehanine permission to answer/respond to that Elf's prayer.
Zanan 01-01-08, 07:08 AM	The only difference is that in the FR gods are supposed to be real existing entities. That creates problems with multiple gods having the same area of influence. Only if one believes that a deity shall have total dominance over one area. Which is (to a large extend), within the Realms, only the case with the Elemental deities or with very special stuff like Shar's Shadow Weave. Dunno, but Times of Troubles aside, I for one never saw a ... say Greek style involvement of the deities within Realmspace. They send avatars and the like, cared about some special worshippers, but they hardly walked amongst the mortals themselves (in person). The problem is that people cannot get their heads about that many deities ... at least it seems that this is the case with these successful moaners and groaners who influenced the designers. And the latter's problem is to make a change to "fewer" deities without corrupting old material. IMHO, so far all that has leaked or being written in that respect of the 4E FR pantheon is only satisfying the moaners and groaners', not us Old Campaigners. You'd hope that they will at least try to be successful in satisfying us too.
Fabius Maximus 01-01-08, 08:50 AM	How? AO made the deific boundaries for the various pantheons. Sehanine was always part of the Seldarine - there's no indication that Selune could have done anything, as soon as the first Elf gave prayer to Sehanine and AO granted Sehanine permission to answer/respond to that Elf's prayer.The existence of an overgod is convenient, isn't it? Feels almost like a deus ex machina. Whenever there is something unlogical happening with the gods, the explanation is right there. Only if one believes that a deity shall have total dominance over one area. Which is (to a large extend), within the Realms, only the case with the Elemental deities or with very special stuff like Shar's Shadow Weave. And that's changing, which makes the whole affair suddenly more logical. The realm of the gods is now shaped by the people's belief, rather than by the gods themselves. Dunno, but Times of Troubles aside, I for one never saw a ... say Greek style involvement of the deities within Realmspace. They send avatars and the like, cared about some special worshippers, but they hardly walked amongst the mortals themselves (in person). What about the Mulhorandi/Untheric gods? (Another of AO's "convenient" actions.) They were almost single-handedly responsible for destroying one of the most powerful empires on Faerūn.
Dark Wizard 01-01-08, 03:22 PM	I disagree with the idea of the gods working under some all-sum game since that really isn't how anything works, even in fantasy/fiction (at least that which even makes a half hearted attempt at being semi-realistic).
Zanan 01-01-08, 04:49 PM	Regarding the Untheric/Mulhorand deities and like events - as I said, there are special circumstances where deities did get involved directly. But we usually speak of either a limited number, a certain region or certain events. The large bulk of those 200 deities hardly ever dealt with any mortal directly. There might be more logic on the way ... and I have no problem with that. As long as it goes along with existing canon about the deities, at least most of them. If there is need for change (and there apparently is - not solely because of a rules' switch), they can obviously simply rule that it was always the case as is stated in the 4E's FRCS or deity book ... end of story. That would certainly not be an elegant way worthy of the Wizards who brought us so much fun over the years.
MarkusTay63 01-01-08, 09:19 PM	I'm going to have to side with Fabius on this one, believe it or not. The myths concerning Sehanine are believed by the Elves, and the ones about Selūne by Faerūnian humans (note: I didn't say ALL humans; other parts of Toril have their own human Moon deities). This means, IG, NOTHING changes. From a meta-gaming perspective, WE know that both sets of Mythology can't be correct, but so what? How it effects the people on Abeir-Toril doesn't change at all. We are only getting upset because we have books that have different published myths about those gods, but myths are nothing more then that - ancient tales CREATED by mortals to help them understand the greater powers of the Universe. Think about it - Mystra was always represented as being very human, and worshipped by humans, yet according to the myths she was there LONG before humans even existed. Even Ed said, in his notes in tAE that Mystra, along with other gods, was CREATED by human worship! That blows the whole Light and Darkness thing right out of the water. Myths are not TRUTHS; they are created by religions to explain how the universe works. Also, I would have to agree with Fabius that in reality, no two gods COULD share the same portfolios. Comparing game dieties to real-world gods is silly, because there is no way an all-powerful god would allow another one to control the same thing he does! Odin would not have tolerated Zeus's existance, anymore then Jupiter would have tolerated Ra's. Even the ancient Romans had problems with this, and they often re-worked local gods of conquered people into their own pantheon (usually renaming them and assigning new attributes), just to keep everything logical. Even they knew, way back then, that you simply can't have different gods for the same thing. I find it much more logical that all the gods are broken-off pieces of an archtype, which further fragments as time goes on, so that some gods no longer even resemble the ones they branched from (Ilmater, Ilmatar). Gods are constantly 'breaking apart' (Tyche) and merging together (Bast & Zandilar), so it is established in canon that these beings are really nothing more then incredibly powerful amoebodic entities that form some sort of vast cosmic 'lava lamp', if you will. The stories about them are created by mortals, and the tales are different on every world, but all of these creatures have a single creation sometime way back in the distant past, before mortal beings, or even the material Plane itself, formed. There is no way that mere mortals will ever know the real truth, because the gods themselves probably don't even remember anymore. At least, thats how I see this whole 4e 'cosmic soup-pot' working. ;) And OH, BTW... I always said Gruumsh was an Elf originally... :D Guess the designers WERE paying attention when I was talking my sleep. ;)
GothicDan 01-01-08, 09:25 PM	The existence of an overgod is convenient, isn't it? Feels almost like a deus ex machina. Whenever there is something unlogical happening with the gods, the explanation is right there. You're talking about alternate potential deific actions in a fantasy world, where the rules of such haven't even been close to fully defined, and you're trying to in some way infer that MY logic is in some way incomplete or flawed?
Dark Wizard 01-01-08, 10:32 PM	However, the gods are not all-powerful (not even close in the omnipotent monotheistic way). That makes a huge difference, they can shape the world but not absolutely to their will alone; many other beings have something to say about it. If just one of the gods were all-powerful in that monolithic way, all of Toril will be under that one god's religion, there wouldn't be anything resembling polytheism. If one god had absolute dominion over the moon, why not the sun, darkness, the world and everything else with it. The Selune/Shar/Mystra/Chauntea has always been a 'myth.' It was the Netherese creation myth which successive editions increasingly took as the only real origin of the world. As for nothing in game changing from the Sehanine-Selune merger, then why merge them at all? If they are the same god but treated as different gods and in game everything says the same, what exactly was accomplished with the merger?
MarkusTay63 01-01-08, 11:39 PM	Simplified mechanics, in the same way that Demons, Devils, Elementals, Djinn, etc... all became "Outsiders" in 3e. We know that they are very different creatures, but it is simpler to do rules for something when you can just "lump stuff together". Or did everyone forget that gawd-awful 4e buzz-phrase from Gencon - "He kills him and takes his stuff" ? :yuck: In a way, it allows the designers to detail the powers granted to a deity's followers in some detail, without resorting to 3 seperate books as they did in 2e. I'm not saying I like the changes, but I do understand the reasoning behind this particular one.
Dark Wizard 01-02-08, 12:01 AM	That's the thing, I don't see this as something WotC would do. If they combine two deities "mechanically" but maintain them as separate for flavor, they don't save much space or effort. I feel it is far more likely that they really will emphasize an "aspect of X" approach, even if they don't do so intentionally. In the end one deity loses out to the other, who ever is more well known. Come late-4E, some gods might just be a footnote if anything at all, "Big deity X also known as z to some members of Race Y," along with everything else that the deity was known for, their church organization, their deeds, their history, their holy orders. Essentially this is what happens in real life, one deity subsumes the other, with the name of the lesser fading and their myths cannibalized by the greater. This is not by some sort of direct conflict, but by usurping their position or making people think X is actually A. By this point, I really don't think everything will chug along in-game as it always. There will be a tendency to drop the less famous (or less focused on) deity over time. So eventually, through support from the books and just collective common player knowledge, characters only worship Selune as the one and only deity of the moon forgetting Sehanine ever existed for all intents and purposes. An actual event that merges deities on the other hand at least gives some sort of explanation. Retcons, even ones not meaning to obscure something will eventually cause a fade out. Perhaps even more likely, 4E will just flatly state that Sehanine is an aspect of Selune and never existed as a separate deity. Sehanine was only an alias or her Elven name. At that point Sehanine might as well have never existed in Realmslore at all. Again, in-game consequences can be argued ad nauseum. It will not matter to those new to the setting or never used Sehanine, but it will cause problems with people who played in the Realms. Once even the old players get past it, mostly Selune will be the only name used save for those who are really into their Realmslore and roleplaying.
Zanan 01-02-08, 06:13 AM	Essentially this is what happens in real life, one deity subsumes the other, with the name of the lesser fading and their myths cannibalized by the greater. This is not by some sort of direct conflict, but by usurping their position or making people think X is actually A. By this point, I really don't think everything will chug along in-game as it always. There will be a tendency to drop the less famous (or less focused on) deity over time. So eventually, through support from the books and just collective common player knowledge, characters only worship Selune as the one and only deity of the moon forgetting Sehanine ever existed for all intents and purposes. Well, that's essentially the way the Christians did it in Britain and Ireland, ... e.g. giving martyr or missionary or somesuch names to springs and wells and the like, who before that were places were nymphs or other spirits where worshipped. Over the course of time, only the Christian name remained, extinguishing the former name and with it most knowledge of that deity / spirit.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 06:22 AM	Ah, but you have to remember that the designers have gotten rid of much of the history and mythology of the elves. To the new elves, Gruumsh is pretty much another god to worship.
Stigger 01-02-08, 06:47 AM	Gods, don't even say things like that... :blink: Too horrifying to even entertain.
E'tii'stil Shadowsil 01-02-08, 08:07 AM	It's even more horrifying because it's true.
Stigger 01-02-08, 08:15 AM	Unfortunately, I can't disagree with you there, as much as I'd love to be able to.
Fabius Maximus 01-02-08, 08:36 AM	You're talking about alternate potential deific actions in a fantasy world, where the rules of such haven't even been close to fully defined, and you're trying to in some way infer that MY logic is in some way incomplete or flawed? We're still dealing here with a human made product from this here world, right? I just wanted to make the point that AO is essentially a deus ex machina from a story-telling perspective. And that's bad style.
GothicDan 01-02-08, 12:32 PM	I do not like AO. I was just pointing out that that's one of many possible routes for your alternate potential reality.
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 03:21 PM	Perhaps even more likely, 4E will just flatly state that Sehanine is an aspect of Selune and never existed as a separate deity. Sehanine was only an alias or her Elven name. At that point Sehanine might as well have never existed in Realmslore at all. Again, in-game consequences can be argued ad nauseum. It will not matter to those new to the setting or never used Sehanine, but it will cause problems with people who played in the Realms. Once even the old players get past it, mostly Selune will be the only name used save for those who are really into their Realmslore and roleplaying.Hmmmm... For some reason, the way you put this makes me think back to some of the problems I had rectifying the lore when D&D became 'multispheric'. When Planescape and Spelljammer got thrown into the mix, all the settings became connected (even ones that were never meant to, like Athas [via Ravenloft]). This gave me a geat big whooping headache, because I knew the back-story of most of these non-human gods through Greyhawk. Now that I am thinkng about this with a multi-edition viewpoint, I think this particular retcon might sit well with me after all. Think about it - We know about the Seldarine and all the others from Greyhawk (or core, although that term didn't exist in 1e). We know from the 2e days that Elves, Dwarves, Beholders, Mindflayers, etc all had a common racial origin, and it was alluded to that every race actually had a home 'planet' (sphere/plane/dimension). That means that there would have been common myths about their gods stemming from these original homeworlds. Now, one of the big mechanical problems with 2e gods was why they were different from sphere to sphere, even if they were the same being. FR went as far as to say it's Pharaonic Pantheon were "broken off pieces" of the originals (Manifestations) - which was the closest thing I saw to designers trying to explain the anomalies. Now, come 4e, we find out that these core gods existed, or still exist, but that on each seperate world the various races found a similar deity and worshipped that, applying all the myths and attributes to the god that they knew from their own religions. What this means is that all of the myths and stories about Sehanine are 100% true, but that the godess that the Elves have been worshipping in her place is really Selūne! This has a precedent in FR already, because the Elves worship Kalreshaar, who we know is really an Elven form of Mielikki. AFAIK, the Elves and Mielikki worshippers are unaware of this, so why can't this same logic be applied to the other gods as well? We have a second precedent, but this one goes back to the 2e Spelljammer rules - When a priest was in a crystal sphere that did not contain any 'essence' of his god, a like-minded god would often answer his prayers. The rules stated that there was some sort 'unspoken agreement' amongst the gods to achieve this, but in reality, doesn't it make more sense that somewhere archtypes of each god exists, and that the power that most closely aligns with the priests beliefs answers the call of these universal archtypes? So, perhaps Sehanine is a much older goddess then Selūne, and she was worshipped back on the Elven homeworld (the new Feywild?). Maybe she IS the moon-god archtype, or perhaps she is a piece that broke directly off the archtype herself (many gods break off from other gods, rather then archtypes, as is the case with the Muhorand Pantheon). Either way, she was around before Selūne (probably). Then when the humans of Toril began to have need of a 'Moon-Goddess', one answered the call, by either interloping (unlikey) or spontaneously springing into being off of the archtype. Then when the Elves arrived, they recognized selūne as something they were familiar with, and began to worship her as Sehanine. In that way, ALL of the lore remains correct, because all of these beings derive from a common source, and answer when called, even if by other names. Does this make any sense to you guys at all, or am I just rambling again? :(
18DELTA 01-02-08, 03:26 PM	Hmmmm... For some reason, the way you put this makes me think back to some of the problems I had rectifying the lore when D&D became 'multispheric'. When Planescape and Spelljammer got thrown into the mix, all the settings became connected (even ones that were never meant to, like Athas [via Ravenloft]). This gave me a geat big whooping headache, because I knew the back-story of most of these non-human gods through Greyhawk. Now that I am thinkng about this with a multi-edition viewpoint, I think this particular retcon might sit well with me after all. Think about it - We know about the Seldarine and all the others from Greyhawk (or core, although that term didn't exist in 1e). We know from the 2e days that Elves, Dwarves, Beholders, Mindflayers, etc all had a common racial origin, and it was alluded to that every race actually had a home 'planet' (sphere/plane/dimension). That means that there would have been common myths about their gods stemming from these original homeworlds. Now, one of the big mechanical problems with 2e gods was why they were different from sphere to sphere, even if they were the same being. FR went as far as to say it's Pharaonic Pantheon were "broken off pieces" of the originals (Manifestations) - which was the closest thing I saw to designers trying to explain the anomalies. Now, come 4e, we find out that these core gods existed, or still exist, but that on each seperate world the various races found a similar deity and worshipped that, applying all the myths and attributes to the god that they knew from their own religions. What this means is that all of the myths and stories about Sehanine are 100% true, but that the godess that the Elves have been worshipping in her place is really Selūne! This has a precedent in FR already, because the Elves worship Kalreshaar, who we know is really an Elven form of Mielikki. AFAIK, the Elves and Mielikki worshippers are unaware of this, so why can't this same logic be applied to the other gods as well? We have a second precedent, but this one goes back to the 2e Spelljammer rules - When a priest was in a crystal sphere that did not contain any 'essence' of his god, a like-minded god would often answer his prayers. The rules stated that there was some sort 'unspoken agreement' amongst the gods to achieve this, but in reality, doesn't it make more sense that somewhere archtypes of each god exists, and that the power that most closely aligns with the priests beliefs answers the call of these universal archtypes? So, perhaps Sehanine is a much older goddess then Selūne, and she was worshipped back on the Elven homeworld (the new Feywild?). Maybe she IS the moon-god archtype, or perhaps she is a piece that broke directly off the archtype herself (many gods break off from other gods, rather then archtypes, as is the case with the Muhorand Pantheon). Either way, she was around before Selūne (probably). Then when the humans of Toril began to have need of a 'Moon-Goddess', one answered the call, by either interloping (unlikey) or spontaneously springing into being off of the archtype. Then when the Elves arrived, they recognized selūne as something they were familiar with, and began to worship her as Sehanine. In that way, ALL of the lore remains correct, because all of these beings derive from a common source, and answer when called, even if by other names. Does this make any sense to you guys at all, or am I just rambling again? :( Yes sir, you are rambling again. :P But, you do make some sense. ;)
Dark Wizard 01-02-08, 10:32 PM	The Mielikki/Khalreshaar duality might not be the best example. Most of the worshipers who call her Khalreshaar believe she is a half-elf, perhaps the first and only half-elven deity. This is closer to a heresy than just an alias. There is also the example in the books mentioned when some deities took up the guise of others, such as Lolth filling in for Moander, Cyric filling in for Leira, or Besheba pretending to be Shaundakul (which sparked a long lasting hatred). To reveal that Sehanine was always Selune is a much bigger step. All of the previous examples were acts of active, purposeful deception (which is wonderful). This is not only underwhelming, but also bound to make one of the involved deities fade. As for the multispheric concept, the only use I've ever had for the Mulhorandi were as the prime example of how the mechanism for interloper deities functions. It almost redeemed them in my view. I like that it hints the gods function under some marvelous cosmic chess game, or rather as entities not too dissimilar to corporations - with a brand name, a mascot, and organizations that stretch across the multiverse. Some foster the main organization, focusing resources on one world. Others branch out, but it's like venture capitalism, the energy put into a wandering avatar seeded into another environment might not survive (as was the case of the Untheric pantheon). Others find just the right conditions to prosper like Tyr or Mielikki and Silvanus. It is beautifully complex and cutthroat, but entirely optional. For most purposes the gods are older than mud and rocks and it doesn't matter too much what their ultimate origins were, but the possibility wasn't closed off. Now some might ask in such an environment why would some gods even tolerate others impinging on their portfolios. I think the answer is that they can't help it. Just like on paper some countries could just completely 'pwn' smaller nations, but throughout history there are many instances of the opposite happening. Other times there really is an overgod Ao sort of figure stepping in (ex: the government with their anti-monopoly regulations). Yet other times, it is in the nature of the deity, both Selune and Sehanine are chaotic good deities with very nurturing personalities/portfolios, they probably don't want to highlander allies.
Spelldancer 01-03-08, 01:07 AM	I have to add my agreement to what LK and Dark Wizard have said so far. Not that either need it. Part of me feels rather hypocritical for voicing my disagreement with these changes. On the mud that I work on, we have taken steps very close to what is being presented as 4e cannon. Our low player base forces us though, I feel. So in our world, the elves know Selune as Sehanine. That though, is what works for us. To stick it as official cannon, and to erase, recon, or just bastardize the previous history of these deities.. I dont like it. Sorry.
Lord Karsus 01-03-08, 01:09 AM	To stick it as official cannon, and to erase, recon, or just bastardize the previous history of these deities.. I dont like it. Sorry. -Especially arbitrarily and randomly. Were there a good reason for Sehanine Moonbow and Selūne to merge, I might be angry at first, and probably critical, but I could come to accept it.
MarkusTay63 01-06-08, 12:39 AM	Well, I never said I liked it, I just feel that it goes a long way in explaining why gods are different from world to world. They actually ARE different gods on each - its just that the local representation of said portfolio/concept is answering the priests calls for spells. Its not so much a deception, as some sort of 'cosmic agreement', which has a base in the 2e Spelljammer rules. Ergo, Sehanine is just fine (elsewhere), and her sister goddess Selune has been taking up her FR slack for her. Just like when Priests of Selune inadvertantly travel to the Elven homeworld, Sehanine would answer Selune's priests spells. There' really nothing nefarious about it, except for perhaps when evil gods/archfiends do it. So Sehanine is, and always will be, the Elven Goddess of the Moon. She just never moved to Toril like the Elves thought. :rolleyes: Don't get the wrong idea - that I'm going pro-4e FR and will start becoming one of its 'cheerleaders'. I still hate what they are doing - I'm just trying to reconcile all of the changes in some sort of logical way (which certainly isn't easy).