Drow no elves?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Drow no elves?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Calmar
06-17-07, 08:45 AM I have recently heard rumours about drow not counting as elves. A drow therefore being no 'medium humanoid (elf)' but a 'medium humanoid (drow)'.
:confused:

Is that nonsense, or can anybody explain?
Zanan
06-17-07, 09:07 AM I have recently heard rumours about drow not counting as elves. A drow therefore being no 'medium humanoid (elf)' but a 'medium humanoid (drow)'.
:confused:

Is that nonsense, or can anybody explain?

Just double check where they are listed in the MM. That'll give you the answer.
Calmar
06-17-07, 09:28 AM That was also my argument. But I have been told, there has been an update of sorts supposed to be in one of the newer sources.
MerrikCale
06-17-07, 09:39 AM they're elves
The Ubbergeek
06-17-07, 03:06 PM They would never admit it, but they are still elvish much - especially physicaly. Twisted, cursed, dark, etc... But at he base, still the illithiry (spelling?) deep in them...

The differences are the most societal and all.
Straploknight
06-17-07, 06:27 PM Or perhaps they see themselves as the truest of elves. I beleive they are infact elves, but IMO I tend to think of them as starting to become "distantly related"
Lord Karsus
06-17-07, 07:01 PM -Sadly, Drow are Elves. They're the black sheep of Elvendom, no pun intended.
MerrikCale
06-17-07, 09:14 PM -Sadly, Drow are Elves. They're the black sheep of Elvendom, no pun intended.

they're a lot more fun at parties than sun elves
Straploknight
06-17-07, 09:31 PM they're a lot more fun at parties than sun elves

drow and debauchery go hand in hand, I'm sure every good bard that has been to a drow hold has a "Drow gone Wild" tale to tell.
Passivearmada
06-17-07, 09:52 PM um. . . i first heard of the drow referred to as dark elves, and i stand to that today. also as "the drow elves." to me, it's like calling the Gold Dwarves or Svirfneblin their own race completely. i generally dont like the drow because. . . i dont know why. i think they look cool and have the capable to be incredible, not that they arent, but something's missing for me to really like them. :thinks:
nice thread, by the way :thumbsup::D:thumbsup:
Lord Karsus
06-18-07, 12:23 AM they're a lot more fun at parties than sun elves

-Yeah, until they stab you in the back, literally.
Max the Immortal
06-18-07, 04:12 AM They certainly are elves, which in my opinion makes them that much more sinister.
Calmar
06-18-07, 07:51 AM THe point is not how they see themselves or are perceived by others, but if the subtype has been changed to (drow) by the latest monster manual(s). ;)
Since that is not the case, I am very happy and satisfied. :D
Suin Bahhar
06-18-07, 08:33 AM It also helps drow get some juicy elf only PrCs like bladesinger, elven high mage, darkwood stalker, arcane archer :P
Lord Karsus
06-18-07, 08:39 AM -Drow cannot become High Magi, as they cannot cast Elven High Magic. They lack the communal unity to do so.
The_Shaman
06-18-07, 11:05 AM "It also helps drow get some juicy elf only PrCs like bladesinger, elven high mage, darkwood stalker, arcane archer"

Well, if the PrC requires elven blood (i.e. spellsinger), they may qualify; it is up to the DM to determine if Corellon's curse has affected them in such a way. If it requires elven tutelage (i.e. arcane archer or bladesinger, which iirc are no more magical than the all-open eldritch knights), drow are about as likely to qualify as half-orcs. On the other hand, few non-drow elves can qualify for, say, the Arachne from F&P.
Suin Bahhar
06-18-07, 12:12 PM I know. I know. But in my campaign being drow is certainly diffirent enough to warrant an obtruction to all elf centric classes. Drow do get their own drow only prestigeclasses. Drow bladesingers, no; drow duskblades, yes (though Eytan had them as goldelves though in during the 2e crown war). Drow arcane archers, nope. But all drow could potentially become these classes in very extreme circumstances, even elven high mage ^^.
Lord Karsus
06-18-07, 12:30 PM But all drow could potentially become these classes in very extreme circumstances, even elven high mage ^^.

-No, no they can't. I just explained why above.
longarm
06-18-07, 12:36 PM Requirements for the Elven High Mage PRC from RoF:
Races: Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Wood Elf

-Longarm
Esnapand
06-18-07, 02:12 PM Isn't it stated in the Races of Faerūn that most Elven High Mages are sun elves (or moon elves)? This doesn't affect the prerequisites (Must be an elf) but I wouldn't allow an elven high mage that isn't sun elf. Just because I think it doesn't fit.

Other than that, in the novel "Sacrifice of the Widow" a circle of Vhaeraunites did cast high magic. Or so they believed.
ShadezofDis
06-18-07, 03:42 PM Other than that, in the novel "Sacrifice of the Widow" a circle of Vhaeraunites did cast high magic. Or so they believed.

They could very well have cast epic magic, however, since all Elven High Magic must be approved of by Corellon then even if the Drow somehow learned Elven High Magic (which would require them to open up the mind of a current Elven High Magi and extract that knowledge) they would still require Corellon's permission in order for the magic to take effect.

That's my understanding anyhow.
Zanan
06-18-07, 05:00 PM Older sources have definitely barred drow from becoming Elven High Mages. These very same source* also said that drow have developed similar magic, dreaded by the elves. In D&D 3,x, this means Epic Magic - for Elven High Magic essentially is just one form of Epic Magic.

Dark elves pre-Descent were able to become Elven High Mages, be they Miyeritar or Ilythiiri High Mages. In the said novel, the Vhaeraunian used something of Ilythiiri origin and quasi-cast an Elven High Magic spell.

I for one would have no problem with Drow Arcane Archers, as there are not only Underdark dwelling Lolth-worshippers roaming Faerūn.

*Evermeet
MerrikCale
06-18-07, 09:41 PM I'm sure every good bard that has been to a drow hold has a "Drow gone Wild" tale to tell.

now those are good DVDs
Lord Karsus
06-19-07, 01:39 AM Isn't it stated in the Races of Faerūn that most Elven High Mages are sun elves (or moon elves)?

-Most Selu'Taar are Sun Elves, yes.

This doesn't affect the prerequisites (Must be an elf) but I wouldn't allow an elven high mage that isn't sun elf. Just because I think it doesn't fit.

-Why not? While not as numerous as the Sun Elven Magi, there exist Wood and Moon Elven High Magi.

Other than that, in the novel "Sacrifice of the Widow" a circle of Vhaeraunites did cast high magic. Or so they believed.

-Or so they believed. Seriously, Elven High Magic is not recorded in a scroll.
Cypher_of_the_Eye
06-19-07, 02:26 AM To the OPs question:

MM4 gives 3 sample drow (to save lazy dms from working) and the subtype given is (elf)

ps i hate lazy DMs :censored: which is why i dont do it:pint:
Lord Karsus
06-19-07, 10:00 AM MM4 gives 3 sample drow (to save lazy dms from working) and the subtype given is (elf)

-That sounds like a big waste of space. How many times do their stats need to be printed, in different books, in the same edition? Geeze...
Esnapand
06-19-07, 12:58 PM Gna, what was I thinking when I typed my last post?
In the Evermeet novel, there even was a wild elf high mage o_O
Not to mention Queen Amlauril, who is a moon elf.
seibermaki
06-21-07, 06:13 PM they're a lot more fun at parties than sun elves

That's for darn sure. ;) ;) :P
Zanan
06-21-07, 06:59 PM -That sounds like a big waste of space. How many times do their stats need to be printed, in different books, in the same edition? Geeze...

Well, no need to worry on that, Drow of the Underdark reprints 3 or 4 of these MM IV statblocks as well. And I still have my problems with drow ninjas and somesuch ...
(Obviously, such complete statblocks are just fine for DMs to use, but they do eat up a lot of space and DotUD does the same for trolls, goblinoids, kuo-toa, quaggoths ... Lolth wept.
Lord Karsus
06-21-07, 07:04 PM Well, no need to worry on that, Drow of the Underdark reprints 3 or 4 of these MM IV statblocks as well.

-Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

-In that same space, they could have printed so many more poignant things. Maybe not more useful to a DM, but more useful all-around.
Zireael
06-22-07, 01:39 PM I hoped they'd print some new info and not reprint what we already know....:(
JaiaDrottsingr
06-23-07, 05:54 PM In actuality they are elfish. But they are Drow and societal differences set them apart. They are not allowed to enter Evermeet, because of their race's behavior has deemed them *unholy* (Umari is actually a Correlon Cleric [See the thread, "March Of Chaos" in the OUaT for more details]). This goes to show that no society or universe is without its cultural bigots. I'd much rather be sneaky and unaccepted instead of ancient, snooty, revered, racist and bloody, Lord Karsus.
Lord Karsus
06-23-07, 06:22 PM I'd much rather be sneaky and unaccepted instead of ancient, snooty, revered, racist and bloody, Lord Karsus.

-Well, that's why I am where I am, and you are where you are...
XHereticX
06-23-07, 07:32 PM -Well, that's why I am where I am, and you are where you are...

So true my lord, so true...
JaiaDrottsingr
06-23-07, 09:02 PM -Well, that's why I am where I am, and you are where you are...

Wait, what?

You enjoy having your heart pour out blood onto a city of elfish idiots who think it's good luck?
Lord Karsus
06-23-07, 09:16 PM -It's better than swearing allegiance to a brain in a jar. You see, I'm/We're the one who is worshipped.
JaiaDrottsingr
06-24-07, 01:18 PM -It's better than swearing allegiance to a brain in a jar. You see, I'm/We're the one who is worshipped.

Ooooo. The omnipotent tripartite made four grammatical mistaaaakes...

1. "one" should be one/s.
2. "who" should be who/m.
3. "is" should be is/are.
4. "worshipped" should be worshiped.

Thirdly, let's keep M:tG outta the FR forums. Magic sucks (But not nearly as bad as Eberron does.).
Lord Karsus
06-25-07, 09:18 AM -Indeed, I/We did. But, you talk in dual pronoun form, and see how far it get's you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Calmar 06-17-07, 08:45 AM	I have recently heard rumours about drow not counting as elves. A drow therefore being no 'medium humanoid (elf)' but a 'medium humanoid (drow)'. :confused: Is that nonsense, or can anybody explain?
Zanan 06-17-07, 09:07 AM	I have recently heard rumours about drow not counting as elves. A drow therefore being no 'medium humanoid (elf)' but a 'medium humanoid (drow)'. :confused: Is that nonsense, or can anybody explain? Just double check where they are listed in the MM. That'll give you the answer.
Calmar 06-17-07, 09:28 AM	That was also my argument. But I have been told, there has been an update of sorts supposed to be in one of the newer sources.
MerrikCale 06-17-07, 09:39 AM	they're elves
The Ubbergeek 06-17-07, 03:06 PM	They would never admit it, but they are still elvish much - especially physicaly. Twisted, cursed, dark, etc... But at he base, still the illithiry (spelling?) deep in them... The differences are the most societal and all.
Straploknight 06-17-07, 06:27 PM	Or perhaps they see themselves as the truest of elves. I beleive they are infact elves, but IMO I tend to think of them as starting to become "distantly related"
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 07:01 PM	-Sadly, Drow are Elves. They're the black sheep of Elvendom, no pun intended.
MerrikCale 06-17-07, 09:14 PM	-Sadly, Drow are Elves. They're the black sheep of Elvendom, no pun intended. they're a lot more fun at parties than sun elves
Straploknight 06-17-07, 09:31 PM	they're a lot more fun at parties than sun elves drow and debauchery go hand in hand, I'm sure every good bard that has been to a drow hold has a "Drow gone Wild" tale to tell.
Passivearmada 06-17-07, 09:52 PM	um. . . i first heard of the drow referred to as dark elves, and i stand to that today. also as "the drow elves." to me, it's like calling the Gold Dwarves or Svirfneblin their own race completely. i generally dont like the drow because. . . i dont know why. i think they look cool and have the capable to be incredible, not that they arent, but something's missing for me to really like them. :thinks: nice thread, by the way :thumbsup::D:thumbsup:
Lord Karsus 06-18-07, 12:23 AM	they're a lot more fun at parties than sun elves -Yeah, until they stab you in the back, literally.
Max the Immortal 06-18-07, 04:12 AM	They certainly are elves, which in my opinion makes them that much more sinister.
Calmar 06-18-07, 07:51 AM	THe point is not how they see themselves or are perceived by others, but if the subtype has been changed to (drow) by the latest monster manual(s). ;) Since that is not the case, I am very happy and satisfied. :D
Suin Bahhar 06-18-07, 08:33 AM	It also helps drow get some juicy elf only PrCs like bladesinger, elven high mage, darkwood stalker, arcane archer :P
Lord Karsus 06-18-07, 08:39 AM	-Drow cannot become High Magi, as they cannot cast Elven High Magic. They lack the communal unity to do so.
The_Shaman 06-18-07, 11:05 AM	"It also helps drow get some juicy elf only PrCs like bladesinger, elven high mage, darkwood stalker, arcane archer" Well, if the PrC requires elven blood (i.e. spellsinger), they may qualify; it is up to the DM to determine if Corellon's curse has affected them in such a way. If it requires elven tutelage (i.e. arcane archer or bladesinger, which iirc are no more magical than the all-open eldritch knights), drow are about as likely to qualify as half-orcs. On the other hand, few non-drow elves can qualify for, say, the Arachne from F&P.
Suin Bahhar 06-18-07, 12:12 PM	I know. I know. But in my campaign being drow is certainly diffirent enough to warrant an obtruction to all elf centric classes. Drow do get their own drow only prestigeclasses. Drow bladesingers, no; drow duskblades, yes (though Eytan had them as goldelves though in during the 2e crown war). Drow arcane archers, nope. But all drow could potentially become these classes in very extreme circumstances, even elven high mage ^^.
Lord Karsus 06-18-07, 12:30 PM	But all drow could potentially become these classes in very extreme circumstances, even elven high mage ^^. -No, no they can't. I just explained why above.
longarm 06-18-07, 12:36 PM	Requirements for the Elven High Mage PRC from RoF: Races: Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Wood Elf -Longarm
Esnapand 06-18-07, 02:12 PM	Isn't it stated in the Races of Faerūn that most Elven High Mages are sun elves (or moon elves)? This doesn't affect the prerequisites (Must be an elf) but I wouldn't allow an elven high mage that isn't sun elf. Just because I think it doesn't fit. Other than that, in the novel "Sacrifice of the Widow" a circle of Vhaeraunites did cast high magic. Or so they believed.
ShadezofDis 06-18-07, 03:42 PM	Other than that, in the novel "Sacrifice of the Widow" a circle of Vhaeraunites did cast high magic. Or so they believed. They could very well have cast epic magic, however, since all Elven High Magic must be approved of by Corellon then even if the Drow somehow learned Elven High Magic (which would require them to open up the mind of a current Elven High Magi and extract that knowledge) they would still require Corellon's permission in order for the magic to take effect. That's my understanding anyhow.
Zanan 06-18-07, 05:00 PM	Older sources have definitely barred drow from becoming Elven High Mages. These very same source* also said that drow have developed similar magic, dreaded by the elves. In D&D 3,x, this means Epic Magic - for Elven High Magic essentially is just one form of Epic Magic. Dark elves pre-Descent were able to become Elven High Mages, be they Miyeritar or Ilythiiri High Mages. In the said novel, the Vhaeraunian used something of Ilythiiri origin and quasi-cast an Elven High Magic spell. I for one would have no problem with Drow Arcane Archers, as there are not only Underdark dwelling Lolth-worshippers roaming Faerūn. *Evermeet
MerrikCale 06-18-07, 09:41 PM	I'm sure every good bard that has been to a drow hold has a "Drow gone Wild" tale to tell. now those are good DVDs
Lord Karsus 06-19-07, 01:39 AM	Isn't it stated in the Races of Faerūn that most Elven High Mages are sun elves (or moon elves)? -Most Selu'Taar are Sun Elves, yes. This doesn't affect the prerequisites (Must be an elf) but I wouldn't allow an elven high mage that isn't sun elf. Just because I think it doesn't fit. -Why not? While not as numerous as the Sun Elven Magi, there exist Wood and Moon Elven High Magi. Other than that, in the novel "Sacrifice of the Widow" a circle of Vhaeraunites did cast high magic. Or so they believed. -Or so they believed. Seriously, Elven High Magic is not recorded in a scroll.
Cypher_of_the_Eye 06-19-07, 02:26 AM	To the OPs question: MM4 gives 3 sample drow (to save lazy dms from working) and the subtype given is (elf) ps i hate lazy DMs :censored: which is why i dont do it:pint:
Lord Karsus 06-19-07, 10:00 AM	MM4 gives 3 sample drow (to save lazy dms from working) and the subtype given is (elf) -That sounds like a big waste of space. How many times do their stats need to be printed, in different books, in the same edition? Geeze...
Esnapand 06-19-07, 12:58 PM	Gna, what was I thinking when I typed my last post? In the Evermeet novel, there even was a wild elf high mage o_O Not to mention Queen Amlauril, who is a moon elf.
seibermaki 06-21-07, 06:13 PM	they're a lot more fun at parties than sun elves That's for darn sure. ;) ;) :P
Zanan 06-21-07, 06:59 PM	-That sounds like a big waste of space. How many times do their stats need to be printed, in different books, in the same edition? Geeze... Well, no need to worry on that, Drow of the Underdark reprints 3 or 4 of these MM IV statblocks as well. And I still have my problems with drow ninjas and somesuch ... (Obviously, such complete statblocks are just fine for DMs to use, but they do eat up a lot of space and DotUD does the same for trolls, goblinoids, kuo-toa, quaggoths ... Lolth wept.
Lord Karsus 06-21-07, 07:04 PM	Well, no need to worry on that, Drow of the Underdark reprints 3 or 4 of these MM IV statblocks as well. -Unbelievable. :rolleyes: -In that same space, they could have printed so many more poignant things. Maybe not more useful to a DM, but more useful all-around.
Zireael 06-22-07, 01:39 PM	I hoped they'd print some new info and not reprint what we already know....:(
JaiaDrottsingr 06-23-07, 05:54 PM	In actuality they are elfish. But they are Drow and societal differences set them apart. They are not allowed to enter Evermeet, because of their race's behavior has deemed them unholy (Umari is actually a Correlon Cleric [See the thread, "March Of Chaos" in the OUaT for more details]). This goes to show that no society or universe is without its cultural bigots. I'd much rather be sneaky and unaccepted instead of ancient, snooty, revered, racist and bloody, Lord Karsus.
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 06:22 PM	I'd much rather be sneaky and unaccepted instead of ancient, snooty, revered, racist and bloody, Lord Karsus. -Well, that's why I am where I am, and you are where you are...
XHereticX 06-23-07, 07:32 PM	-Well, that's why I am where I am, and you are where you are... So true my lord, so true...
JaiaDrottsingr 06-23-07, 09:02 PM	-Well, that's why I am where I am, and you are where you are... Wait, what? You enjoy having your heart pour out blood onto a city of elfish idiots who think it's good luck?
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 09:16 PM	-It's better than swearing allegiance to a brain in a jar. You see, I'm/We're the one who is worshipped.
JaiaDrottsingr 06-24-07, 01:18 PM	-It's better than swearing allegiance to a brain in a jar. You see, I'm/We're the one who is worshipped. Ooooo. The omnipotent tripartite made four grammatical mistaaaakes... 1. "one" should be one/s. 2. "who" should be who/m. 3. "is" should be is/are. 4. "worshipped" should be worshiped. Thirdly, let's keep M:tG outta the FR forums. Magic sucks (But not nearly as bad as Eberron does.).
Lord Karsus 06-25-07, 09:18 AM	-Indeed, I/We did. But, you talk in dual pronoun form, and see how far it get's you.