Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tugaran 05-08-07, 09:30 AM	Hello I am looking for some Drow Substitution Levels for the core Classes (Fighter, Mage, Priest, Rogue). Can anyone help me ? In the offical rulebooks I found none. They can be "home-made". Ciao Michael
BadCatMan 05-08-07, 10:31 AM	There's Darksong Knight in Champions Of Valor, which is for Fighters who follow Eilistraee.
Andyr 05-08-07, 12:20 PM	Perhaps Drow of the Underdark has/will have some?
Mad Mage 05-08-07, 12:51 PM	Well, people will probably rant & rave over this, but... Drow Weapon Master (Fighter) (No fluff at the moment. Sorry. :embarrass) Hit Die: d10. Requirements To take a Drow Weapon Master substitution level, a character must me a male Drow, belong to a noble drow house or have once belonged to one, and be about to take their 1st, 5th, or 10th level of Fighter. Class Skills Drow Weapon Master substitution level have the class skills of the standard Fighter class plus Hide and Move Silently. Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Class Features Ambidexterity: At 1st level, a Drow Weapon Master treats a specific 1-handed medium weapon (selected at the time of taking their first substitution level, and is only usable with that one weapon proficiency thereafter) as a small weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting. This stacks with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. This replaces the standard bonus feat a fighter gains at first level. Fearlessness (Su): At 5th level a Drow Weapon Master becomes a terrifying thing to behold in battle. Upon a successful kill of an opponent with a Coup de Grace action, a Drow Weapon Master becomes immune to natural or magical fear and emotional effects for 5 rounds. Two-Weapon Mastery: A 10th level, a Drow Weapon Master subtracts their penalty on two-weapon fighting for both weapons by 2 points. Therefor, a Drow Weapon Master with a light weapon in their off-hand weapon and has the Two-Weapon fighting feat would no longer experience a penalty to attack rolls for a weapon in either hand. The penalty to Strength bonus on attacks still applies. This replaces the standard bonus feat a fighter gains at tenth level. Don't know if what I just wrote is overpowered, underpowered, or what-not.
Lord Karsus 05-08-07, 12:54 PM	:: Rant...Rave ::
Mad Mage 05-08-07, 12:57 PM	:: Rant...Rave :: :heehee Okay, LK, feel free to comment, though.
Lord Karsus 05-08-07, 01:02 PM	-Looks good to me. Might I suggest, that you also throw in some kind of fear producing ability. Maybe substitute or combine with the Fearless ability. Something along the lines of, "Drow Weaponmasters are so fearsome in battle that they demoralize their enemies, resulting in a -1 to all rolls..." Something like that...
Dielzen 05-08-07, 05:22 PM	Not too shabby, and there's precedent for this (Tempest PrC) but I'd suggest making the character choose one Medium weapon to get the Ambi beny for, not allowing all 1h wpns. Also, the ability at 5th has no counterbalance, it's free. And, those 3 abilities are all prolly worth more than a feat. I'd suggest making two of them take the place of the +1 BAB the fighter gets at that level. A pure fighter still gets 18 BAB, so still 4 attk/rnd. This would reign in the character some, since they're getting essentially a +4 to hit with both weapons, you're taking 2 of it away in terms of BAB.
Dxzauvrinn 05-09-07, 12:47 AM	The recently released Drow of the Underdark book has drow substitution levels for: fighter, rogue, bard, cleric, wizard, warlock, druid, favored soul and swashbuckler. There's no drow substitution levels for ranger, but if a drow ranger takes the cavestalker prestige class presented in the book, one of it's class features changes all of the ranger's class features that apply to surface terrain to subterranean. It also allows you to take combat styles that better fit drow (such as allowing you to use the archer style for drow hand crossbows).
GothicDan 05-09-07, 02:03 AM	Are all Drow weaponmasters (and by association, all great Drow fighters) renowned for dual-wielding, or is that merely another thing about Drow that's been greatly... Exaggerated?
theartistformerlyknownas 05-09-07, 02:53 AM	Are all Drow weaponmasters (and by association, all great Drow fighters) renowned for dual-wielding, or is that merely another thing about Drow that's been greatly... Exaggerated? Hasn't everything about the drow been greatly... exaggerated?
Dielzen 05-09-07, 03:16 AM	Well, according to the "great Drizzt" in one of his multidinous books, dual-wielding was frowned upon to some small extent by the teachers of his school.
BadCatMan 05-09-07, 05:00 AM	Except every Drow in a Salvatore novel does it. I don't know about the other authors. It makes some kind of sense: high dexterity and intelligence for greater co-ordination; a focus on killing that is heightened by being able to attack multiple times; a fighting style reminscent of a spider.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:24 AM	And something that everyone will soon come to expect when fighting powerful Drow weaponmonsters/fighters?
Zanan 05-09-07, 06:52 AM	SKR had an article on Drow Fighting Styles somewhere on the main site, while TDotUD features some as well. TWF was decent enough in AD&D and made some cool characters (the threesome in the Drizzt novels lead the way, of course), but while it is a preferred fightingy style amongst the drow, it is not the only one. Much like elves (dunno, but wasn't sword & dagger one of the preferred elven fighting styles as well?) drow gain through high DEX (see requirements for TWF et al) and as they lack on STR (theme) and CON (de facto), they naturally take on styles that rely on agility. Hence they work with rapiers, short swords and the like. As high DEX and Weapon Finesse make up for TWF penalties, that style offers a good alternative to the usual greatsword wielders - not least in the restricted Realms Below. BTW, as TDotUD has also stressed, weapon masters is a "job" in a drow house - to which the most capable military leader is assigned to. Whether or not s/he is the "best" fighter is another point. It's not all about muscle and agility, you know.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 07:29 AM	(dunno, but wasn't sword & dagger one of the preferred elven fighting styles as well?) That was actually THE preferred dual-wielding style, since you couldn't wield two weapons of equal size at the same time in 2E without taking the Two-Weapon Fighting proficiency... Other than that, the most iconic form of Elven melee was really Bladesong (it was a martial style separate, but related directly to, the mage/fighter kit path). I was just asking about the Drow, because I was wondering as to the suitability of the PrC's little bonus-thingy to dual-wielding. But I question the entire premise of the PrC, anyway, so... ;)
jamorris09 05-09-07, 07:35 AM	First off I'm pretty sure the house weapon masters are the "best" fighters of the house, because they are the ones who train all he noble born before they go to the academy. Plus Drizzt and Zaknefein are the only two weapon masters, Drizzt isn't a weapon master but still that dual wield. The others that were mentioned I believe used a trident and a long sword, if not broad, I can't remember. As far as drow being not strong enough to fight on the same level as other races and thus needing to use dual wield. Yes they do have con against them and dex going for them, but they have no less strength than humans or dwarves, two classes that make good strength fighters. There I said it.
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 09:10 AM	I was just asking about the Drow, because I was wondering as to the suitability of the PrC's little bonus-thingy to dual-wielding. But I question the entire premise of the PrC, anyway, so... ;) -Those are substitution levels.
Zanan 05-09-07, 10:51 AM	... As far as drow being not strong enough to fight on the same level as other races and thus needing to use dual wield. Yes they do have con against them and dex going for them, but they have no less strength than humans or dwarves, two classes that make good strength fighters. There I said it. Racially High Dex makes fighting styles that rely on agility a better option and, as I said, much of the fighting a drow does is unsuitable for large or even medium sized weaponry. We had drow-monsters in AD&D too, no doubt. And technically, nothing prevents a drow fighter with STR 22 at level 10 without using anything but bonus points. But dare I say it, I don't want to imagine a drow or elven fighter hopping gracefully about with arms that would make an ogre hide in shame ... technicalities, I know. Hence I wrote "theme" ... and Gothic Dan can tell you something about that.
Tevin Kevlak 05-09-07, 11:07 AM	Racially High Dex makes fighting styles that rely on agility a better option and, as I said, much of the fighting a drow does is unsuitable for large or even medium sized weaponry. We had drow-monsters in AD&D too, no doubt. And technically, nothing prevents a drow fighter with STR 22 at level 10 without using anything but bonus points. But dare I say it, I don't want to imagine a drow or elven fighter hopping gracefully about with arms that would make an ogre hide in shame ... technicalities, I know. Hence I wrote "theme" ... and Gothic Dan can tell you something about that. How is that possible? Base 18 plus 2 (level 4 and level 8) makes 20, not 22...
Andyr 05-09-07, 11:28 AM	Ryld Argith from the War of the Spider Queen novels was a (pretty powerful) weapon master. Though he used a few weapons through the books, the one he used most often (i.e. when he had a choice) was a greatsword. I don't recall him (or the other drow in the party--aside from Valas, who I assume is a Ranger/Rogue, and wasn't a House weapons master or similar) dual-wielding.
Mad Mage 05-09-07, 11:51 AM	Not too shabby, and there's precedent for this (Tempest PrC) but I'd suggest making the character choose one Medium weapon to get the Ambi beny for, not allowing all 1h wpns. Good idea. Also, the ability at 5th has no counterbalance, it's free. I can kind-of understand what you're saying here, but look at it this way: I was looking at other Substitution levels presented in CoV and its Web Enhancement, and a few of them seemed to offer free abilities once in a while. And, those 3 abilities are all prolly worth more than a feat. I'd suggest making two of them take the place of the +1 BAB the fighter gets at that level. A pure fighter still gets 18 BAB, so still 4 attk/rnd. This would reign in the character some, since they're getting essentially a +4 to hit with both weapons, you're taking 2 of it away in terms of BAB. Hmmmmm..... dunno what to say about that.
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 12:03 PM	Ryld Argith from the War of the Spider Queen novels was a (pretty powerful) weapon master. Though he used a few weapons through the books, the one he used most often (i.e. when he had a choice) was a greatsword. I don't recall him (or the other drow in the party--aside from Valas, who I assume is a Ranger/Rogue, and wasn't a House weapons master or similar) dual-wielding. -The Weaponsmaster is only a title, after all. One doesn't need to fit any real prerequisites (like a PrC) to be considered a Weaponsmaster. So, I am sure that all across Drow society, there is a lot of variation. Why not...
Mad Mage 05-09-07, 12:08 PM	Ryld Argith from the War of the Spider Queen novels was a (pretty powerful) weapon master. Though he used a few weapons through the books, the one he used most often (i.e. when he had a choice) was a greatsword. I don't recall him (or the other drow in the party--aside from Valas, who I assume is a Ranger/Rogue, and wasn't a House weapons master or similar) dual-wielding. I can understand that, and let me say this much: Substitution levels - especially mine - are just offers for a specific class to be a little something different for gameplay and flavor. I mean, not EVERY Drow Fighter HAS to take levels 1 and 10 in my Substitution Levels. Maybe some just take level 5.
Zanan 05-09-07, 12:21 PM	How is that possible? Base 18 plus 2 (level 4 and level 8) makes 20, not 22... Well, yes. Just an example. The Ogre would still cry though.
Tevin Kevlak 05-09-07, 03:20 PM	I doubt it, unless the Ogre rolled a 3 for his strength score he's got more strength. Gotta love that +16 strength.
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 06:58 PM	I doubt it, unless the Ogre rolled a 3 for his strength score he's got more strength. Gotta love that +16 strength. -Not unless he is a baby Ogre. :P
Zanan 05-10-07, 04:03 AM	Well, yes. You could actually put the MM aside and "create" a CR 11 (to keep the drow fighter's CR) ogre (e.g.) barbarian 8, using the DMG's suggestion for starting scores et al. Would be fun. I was talking about the average chaps, of course, STR 21.
Straploknight 05-12-07, 07:36 PM	As far as drow being not strong enough to fight on the same level as other races and thus needing to use dual wield. Yes they do have con against them and dex going for them, but they have no less strength than humans or dwarves, two classes that make good strength fighters. There I said it. Consider the average drow fighter rather than the exceptional drow fighter By taking the path of the dexterous fighter and choosing light weapons which can rely of agility over strength, they can take Weapon Finesse which provides a +1 to thier attack bonus. Humans and Dwarves would have to take weapon focus to do the same, which the drow could also take and combine it with a light weapon for a total bonus of +2 to attack. Even though the the weapons may do less damage, they can more accurately place thier blows and concievably do more damage over time. Drow Fighter ST:10 DX:12 CN:8 IN:12 WS:10 CH:8 Hit Points:9 Init:+1 Bab:+1 Skill Points:12 Fort:+1 Refl:+1 Will:+0 Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapier +3(1d6+0 18-20/x2) Human Fighter ST:10 DX:10 CN:10 IN:10 WS:10 CH:10 Hit Points:13 Init:+4 Skill Points:12 Fort:+2 Refl:+0 Will:+0 Feats: Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, Toughness Longsword +2(1d8+0 19-20/x2) Dwarf Fighter ST:10 DX:10 CN:12 IN:10 WS:10 CH:8 Hit Points:11 Init:+4 Skill Points:8 Fort:+3 Refl:+0 Will:+0 Feats: Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative Battleaxe +2(1d8+0 20/x3)
MarkusTay63 05-13-07, 01:05 AM	Are all Drow weaponmasters (and by association, all great Drow fighters) renowned for dual-wielding, or is that merely another thing about Drow that's been greatly... Exaggerated?Salvatore covered this exact point himself in one of the recent Jarlaxle novels. When that captain-of-the-gaurd Chick (forget her name) fought Jarlaxle, she commented "I though ALL Drow fight with two swords", and his answer was that that was greatly exaggerated. His comment was something to the effect- "Although many of my brethren do enjoy the two-sword technique, most Drow learn many different methods of fighting". So there ya' go - right from the horses mouth. :D
Straploknight 05-13-07, 02:34 AM	Drow Fighter(variant) Male drow fighter, 2nd level NE Medium Humaniod(elf) Init +7, Senses Darkvision 120', Listen +3, Spot +3 Languages Common, Elven, Undercommon, Drow Sign Language -------------------------------------------------------------------- Armor Class 17 (touch 11, flat-footed 16) Hit Points 13 Immune magic sleep effects Spell Resistance 13 Fortitude +2 Reflex +1 Willpower +0(+2 against spells, spell-like abilities & other enchantments) Weakness light blindness -------------------------------------------------------------------- Speed 30 ft. (6 squares) Melee drowcraft rapier +6(1d6+2 18-20/x2) Ranged drowcraft hand crossbow +5(1d4+2 19-20/x2) Base Attack +2, Grapple +2 Attack Options hit & run tactics. poison Combat Gear drow sleep poison (DC13 Fort, unconcious 1 minute/unconcious 2d4 hours) Spell-Like Abilites (CL2) 1/day - dancing lights. darkness, faerie fire ------------------------------------------------------------------- Abilities ST 10, DX 12, CN 8, IN 12, WS 10, CH 12 Special Qualities Hit & Run Tactics (replaces heavy armor & tower shield prof. for +2 init & dex bonus to damage within 30' of flat-footed foe) Feats Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Skills Climb 3, Hide 2, Jump 2, Listen 1, Move Silently 3, Spot 1 Possessions Drowcraft Buckler, Drowcraft Chain shirt, Drowcraft Rapier, Drowcraft hand crossbow ------------------------------------------------------------------- Light Blindness (Ex) Abrupt exposure blinds for 1 round & -1 circumstance penalty on attacks, saves, and checks in bright light Eh, got bored and decided to hammer one all the way out, based on the notion that most common sorts of drow are 2nd level when encountered.
Zanan 05-13-07, 04:40 AM	Salvatore covered this exact point himself in one of the recent Jarlaxle novels. When that captain-of-the-gaurd Chick (forget her name) fought Jarlaxle, she commented "I though ALL Drow fight with two swords", and his answer was that that was greatly exaggerated. His comment was something to the effect- "Although many of my brethren do enjoy the two-sword technique, most Drow learn many different methods of fighting". So there ya' go - right from the horses mouth. :D Speaking of which, not horses, but dual-wielding, methinks the current Weapon Master of House Baenre does not fight with two weapons either. Have to double check on that bit with WotSQ 5 & 6 though. Sometime.
Straploknight 05-13-07, 08:17 PM	Y'know whats funny about that, only exceptional members of the race or the average drow of at least 12th level are two weapon fighters. The minimum requirement for have the TWF feat is a 15 dex.
Straploknight 05-13-07, 08:22 PM	double post
Zanan 05-14-07, 04:16 AM	Y'know whats funny about that, only exceptional members of the race or the average drow of at least 12th level are two weapon fighters. The minimum requirement for have the TWF feat is a 15 dex. The average drow warrior (MM) starts off with Dex 13 ... that's Point Buy 15 or something. Take a decent enough method PB 25/28/32 and you have low level drow easily meeting the Dex requirement. Obviously, most of the drow stuff of the novels / Menzo box is AD&D and requirements there were virtually non-existent.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 01:26 PM	Obviously, most of the drow stuff of the novels / Menzo box is AD&D and requirements there were virtually non-existent. That's not exactly true. It was just based all on Weapon Proficiencies. Fighters started out with 4 at 1st level, and got one every 3 levels. And to use two weapons of equal size 'properly' required, I think, 3 Weapon Proficiencies alone.
Zanan 05-14-07, 05:19 PM	That's not exactly true. It was just based all on Weapon Proficiencies. Fighters started out with 4 at 1st level, and got one every 3 levels. And to use two weapons of equal size 'properly' required, I think, 3 Weapon Proficiencies alone. I didn't say that you got them for free. Unless memory deceives me, you even had to buy the weapon types (longsword, mace, longbow) with these weapon proficiencies, didn't you? I was referring to ability demands and somesuch. That was not as strict as today ... spellcasting apart. Well ... after half a moment's thought, the classes themselves had ability restrictions! Oh, that was fun ...
Straploknight 05-14-07, 11:00 PM	The average drow warrior (MM) starts off with Dex 13 ... that's Point Buy 15 or something. Take a decent enough method PB 25/28/32 and you have low level drow easily meeting the Dex requirement. Obviously, most of the drow stuff of the novels / Menzo box is AD&D and requirements there were virtually non-existent. I see... Having never really needing to give it some thought, I read the ability entry in the MM and I see they have this thing called a standard array (13-12-11-10-9-8) I just assumed they would build humaniod races with a 10-10-10-10-10-10 array rather than the standard array used there, I'm curious as to why they developed the standard array for use with the MM humaniod entries? In any event, using the standard array would lessen the entry level into TWF by 4 levels - As for using point buy, that would in my mind create exceptional drow(not that they would be a rarity, just uncommon)