Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mcJoker 06-25-07, 04:33 AM	I have been looking everywhere I can think of to find some information on these guys. Nada... Does anyone have any (preferably canon) information on the druids of Kossuth? I'm trying to get a feel for what they would be like.
Zanan 06-25-07, 06:54 AM	There no wonder you encountered problems looking for these druids, for Kossuth is not nor has been a Nature deity with a clergy featuring druids. I have never come across Kossuthan druids in Faiths & Avatars nor Faiths & Pantheons, though I can see a point in arguing about somesuch. All Elemental deities may lay a claim for having druids - in some respect - but so far, I haven't encountered anyone. Of course, in AD&D they all had shamans ... which were detailed in F&A but saw little detailed info in game.
Darakhoranon 06-25-07, 06:55 AM	Isn΄t Kossuth the god of fire? Garyx, the dragon god of destruction, fire and renewal is said to be worshiped by some druids (that he doesn΄t care about any more or any less then about anyone or anything else) - but only in "Races of the Dragon", not in "Draconomicon"... In this case, you could hinge it all on Garyx΄s renewal aspect, but where did you get the idea that KOSSUTH has similar portfolios? I didn΄t even know that druids of Kossuth are said to even exist somewhere - but no matter. As I see it, these druids would probably concentrate on some "cleaning fire" philosphy, that is, they would try to burn everything down and let nature regenerate. However, as I said, I have no idea where you could find material on druids of Kossuth.
mcJoker 06-25-07, 09:06 AM	Actually...it is stated in F&P. I believe it also also mentioned in one of the threads at Candlekeep Forum. Essentially it would be an elemental druid. Oh...the reference: F&P, page 35, Kossuth "Worshipers: Druids, elemental archons, fire creatures, Thayans"
Straploknight 06-25-07, 10:07 AM	In this case, you could hinge it all on Garyx΄s renewal aspect, but where did you get the idea that KOSSUTH has similar portfolios? Hmmm, I was thinking the same thing.
Andyr 06-25-07, 02:22 PM	Well, one of the domains Kossuth grants is Renewal...
Zanan 06-26-07, 04:26 AM	Actually...it is stated in F&P. I believe it also also mentioned in one of the threads at Candlekeep Forum. Essentially it would be an elemental druid. Oh...the reference: F&P, page 35, Kossuth "Worshipers: Druids, elemental archons, fire creatures, Thayans" Do note that "worshipper" does not equal divine caster or member of clergy.* Obviously, if you want a druid of Kossuth and the DM sanctions somesuch, fine. Going by the "official" list of Nature deities (those rangers and druids essentially have to choose to get divine assistance, i.e. spellcasting ability), he cannot grant spells. That is not to say there cannot be druidic worshippers of him. As I said, this is just canon lore ... and not one I like to adhere to either. *Taking this to the extreme, all Thayans would be able to cast divine spells.
MerrikCale 06-26-07, 10:38 PM	There no wonder you encountered problems looking for these druids, for Kossuth is not nor has been a Nature deity with a clergy featuring druids. Game designers have been purposefully open-ended about what is and what is not a nature deity. The Elemantal gods and Selune could fit that description certainly but I do not believe they have been "officially" recognized as such with the possible exception of Selune in CoV
customdrapery 06-27-07, 10:54 AM	I like the fact that the nature deities are open-ended. If a player can make a good argument why a particular deity is nature-related, go for it. I think that the elemental deities are perfect for druids and heck you could even make an argument for folks like Shar (caverns) or Lathander (spring).
GothicDan 06-27-07, 05:49 PM	I hate the idea of a Druid of Kossuth. Just my never-humble opinion, from someone who is a huge fan of Kossuth and elemental deities in general.
MerrikCale 06-27-07, 07:46 PM	I hate the idea of a Druid of Kossuth. I have to disagree. To me, elemental is nature enough
mcJoker 06-27-07, 08:43 PM	Do note that "worshipper" does not equal divine caster or member of clergy.* Obviously, if you want a druid of Kossuth and the DM sanctions somesuch, fine. Going by the "official" list of Nature deities (those rangers and druids essentially have to choose to get divine assistance, i.e. spellcasting ability), he cannot grant spells. That is not to say there cannot be druidic worshippers of him. As I said, this is just canon lore ... and not one I like to adhere to either. *Taking this to the extreme, all Thayans would be able to cast divine spells. Worshipers has nothing to do with the ability to cast divine spells or become a member of the clergy...yes, I am aware of that. However that wasn't my question. Does anyone have any (preferably canon) information on the druids of Kossuth? I'm trying to get a feel for what they would be like. What I am trying to figure out is how would a druid of Kossuth (i.e. a druid who follows Kossuth's faith as pointed out in F&P) fit in? Personally I would see him as a kind of cleanser...using fire to burn down/away farmland or perhaps even towns in order to let the forests retake that land...or perhaps torch sickened areas of woodland so that they do not infect healthy areas. There just seems to be something missing in regards to this...it has potential, yet something...
GothicDan 06-27-07, 10:25 PM	I have to disagree. To me, elemental is nature enough It's one super-specialized aspect of Nature. Druids are about Nature, not tiny aspects of Nature that have virtually nothing to do with the rest of it. Kossuth's dogma preaches wholescale fire worship and the slaughter of all things aquatic. One read through Silvanus's entry and Eldath's, and the like, will show you how integral water is to druidic dogma. This is a case of me not thinking that the standard clerical classes fit the deities correctly.
MerrikCale 06-27-07, 11:14 PM	It's one super-specialized aspect of Nature. Druids are about Nature, not tiny aspects of Nature that have virtually nothing to do with the rest of it. Kossuth's dogma preaches wholescale fire worship and the slaughter of all things aquatic. One read through Silvanus's entry and Eldath's, and the like, will show you how integral water is to druidic dogma. This is a case of me not thinking that the standard clerical classes fit the deities correctly. Personally I have never had a problem with druids super-specializing in a specific aspect of nature
Gray Richardson 06-28-07, 01:23 AM	Druids of Kossuth are somewhat more common on the Plane of Fire. They abound in the flame-forest of Zenoba and in the mountains of Qaf. Back on Toril, you will find druids of Kossuth in the wilds around Thay. They particularly dislike star elves, and seek to purge them from the Yuirwood with their cleansing flames. Druids of Kossuth can be found in wilderness areas around volcanoes and geothermal vents such as hot springs and geysers. As such you will find them in the Neverwinter Wood around Mount Hotenow, in Turmish in the Aphrunn range, the Smoking Mountains in Unther, the Peaks of Flame in Chult, and around the Lake of Steam area. It is not surprising that fire genasi are often drawn to serve Kossuth as druids. Thus, you can expect to encounter such druids in wilderness areas near communities where fire genasi occur (due to elemental bloodlines and ancestry). Druids of Kossuth also more abundant in the underdark near magma flows, and wherever wildlife of the fire elemental variety thrives, the same types of places that salamanders, magmin and fire mephits call home. Druids of Kossuth may also be found in desert regions. There are a few that patrol the Anauroch, and especially in Calimshan, due to the historic influence of efreeti in the region. Druidic traditions in service to Kossuth have a strong presence in Zakhara, and are somewhat more organized there, with an established hierarchy. It is rumored that there is an archdruid of Kossuth located somewhere in the High Dessert in the mountains near Tajar the City of Trade. He (or she?) is said to train fire druids in the greater mysteries of Kossuth, among them the Song of the Dessert, the mystery of divining True Fate from listening to the music of the sands in shifting dunes and as it blows upon the wind in great storms. :mage:
MarkusTay63 06-28-07, 02:17 AM	Kossuth just went up a notch in my book, thanks Gray. :D As a side note - It's not D&D, but I read a novel YEARS ago that took place in modern-day Australia, and all of their mythology worked. They believe that everything in the universe had an opposite, so the novel created the concept of anti-fire! Its basically black flames, made from darkness, that un-burn things. If you set it on a burned-down town, the black fire will spread and slowly re-create the town literally from the ashes. I always thought that was a really cool idea for a D&D spell, and it could fit perfectly for a druid of Kossuth. Burn down the forest to kill some Elves, and the un-burn it in order to work the 'renewal' aspect of kossuth. Black fire = the flames of renewal. ;) Or another take would be that Shar grants 'black fire' to her priests, in order to counter Kossuth's in areas where they are competitors (like Thay). Also, burning down villages that appear in wilderness areas would fit both a druid and kossuth.
Zanan 06-28-07, 04:12 AM	Gray ... am I right in assuming that the above is your opinion rather than the requested canon lore on the topic?
Fabius Maximus 06-28-07, 04:41 PM	Gray ... am I right in assuming that the above is your opinion rather than the requested canon lore on the topic? I'd say so. Never heard of the High Dessert. What's that? A tower of chocolate ice cream? ;)
GothicDan 06-29-07, 11:53 AM	Druids by nature already are super-specialized. They are an example of a Specialty Priest as presented in the 2e PHB, after which much of FR's clergy and classes were defined. I don't see the point in specializing a Specialty Priest.
Faraer 06-29-07, 12:16 PM	Druids aren't about "nature" in the totally open sense of "anything not created by sentient beings", but in the sense of the natural world of growing things and how humans can live in harmony with it without overwhelming it by cultivation. Things which Kossuth, a giant fire elemental, doesn't give a lead piece about. Druid of Kossuth is stretching "druid" beyond reason, I think.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 12:39 PM	Indeed. It would be a lot like trying to make Paladins apply to any religious organization in the Realms. Kossuth doesn't give two pennies about humanity or how they live amongst nature. He doesn't care enough about living creatures to give his faithful the ability to Wild Shape. I think, if we had to go by Core rules, a Cleric with access to the Fire Domain would be a far better fit for a Cleric of Kossuth. Of course, me being who I am, I'd most likely make it a 20 level class more similar to the 2E Specialty Priest
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 12:41 PM	Consider a druid of Kossuth to be a follower of a Heresy, then. ;) Personally, I'm more comfortable with a Druid of an Elemental Lord, then an 'Urban Druid'. :yuck: I'd say so. Never heard of the High Dessert. What's that? A tower of chocolate ice cream? ;)Its in Zakhara. Al-Qadim has 'Sand Elementalists', which fit the setting much better then a desert druid. Druids don't really fit the culture well. However, I can envision a multi class Druid/Elementalist living in the border area of the Utter East, because the mix of cultures in that region. In fact, you could create some really strange class combos there.
MerrikCale 06-29-07, 11:44 PM	Indeed. It would be a lot like trying to make Paladins apply to any religious organization in the Realms. Perhaps they should be. I feel there should be 20 level "holy warriors" for any deity
GothicDan 06-29-07, 11:50 PM	As you said, for EACH deity. A different one. You're not trying to force one already-specialized holy class to apply to multiple religions with only tangential similarities, as is being proposed for the Druid.
MerrikCale 06-30-07, 12:27 AM	As you said, for EACH deity. A different one. You're not trying to force one already-specialized holy class to apply to multiple religions with only tangential similarities, as is being proposed for the Druid. Thats not really it. The question is, is an elemental deity a nature deity for purposes of the druid list? I say why not. Its borderline. As stated, the "nature deity list" has been pruposefully open-ended for presumably individual DM's definition. Personally, fire is nature in many ways. A druid of Kossuth could see fire has the life giver, fires burn through forest and plains in a form of rebirth. The sun, a giant fireball, gives life to plants who in turn give us the air we breath, etc. I feel you can interpert the being to fit the nature deity list, you don't.
BadCatMan 06-30-07, 12:38 AM	If we can have Druids of Gond, of all things, then we can have Druids of anything. :D
GothicDan 06-30-07, 12:40 AM	I'm really not looking at the Nature Deity list. One's portfolio alone does not define how one sees Nature and how one promotes one's clergy to treat it. Technically, every aspect of every deity's portfolio is 'natural,' so leaving it up to blind interpretation by portfolio alone is ultimately lacking in any sort of solid analysis. One read of the Elemental Deities' entries in F&A (and the characters of Straasha and Grome from the Elric series, after which Istishia and Grumbar were based) will leave the question clearly decided, as far as I can tell. The Druid class, as presented in the PHB, is a set of abilities focusing equally on all aspects of nature. That's what the spell list and its granted powers show. I think it much more fun, appropriate, and personalized to have a 20 level divine spellcasting class with aspects of both the Druid and the Cleric to serve the Elemental Lords. ... Druids of Gond. Gah. Why not just remove the entire idea of Druids being Nature-priests at all? Oh, wait, already done.
MerrikCale 06-30-07, 08:15 AM	Druids of Gond. Gah. Why not just remove the entire idea of Druids being Nature-priests at all? Oh, wait, already done. Well, I never advocated that. Nor would I say any deity's portfolio is natural for these purposes. All I'm saying is, fire is an important aspect of "nature". Its is both is a destructive force of nature and its renewal process. So I think it can fit. Similiar arguments can be made for the other main elements- earth, water, and air. These are important aspects of nature.
captaincarot 06-30-07, 08:47 AM	Perhaps they should be. I feel there should be 20 level "holy warriors" for any deity here here! why should lawful good be the only ones to get special divine fighters.
MerrikCale 06-30-07, 09:13 AM	here here! why should lawful good be the only ones to get special divine fighters. Well, they sort have done that with ToB Crusaders but I would have preferred it in maybe the Player's Guide to Faerun along with 20 level Bladesingers and Mystics
Purple Dragon Knight 06-30-07, 01:14 PM	Zanan: the Elemental Archon PrC entry in F&P mentions druids of Kossuth. Here is the list I have, so far, compiled for nature deities, using 3.0 and 3.5 material (I stopped at the Underdark book, so I'm sure more came later and could be added). The list of nature deities that can grant spells to druids and rangers is: (F=Faerϋnian Pantheon; E=Elf Pantheon; G=Gnome Pantheon; H=Halfling Pantheon; D=Dwarf Pantheon; M=Mulhorandi Pantheon; MM=Monster deity; EL=Elemental gods) • Chauntea, F • Eldath, F • Gwaeron Windstrom, F • Lurue, F • Malar, F • Mielikki, F • Nobanion, F • Shiallia, F • Silvanus, F • Talona, F • Talos, F • Ubtao, F • Ulutiu, F • Umberlee, F • Uthgar, F • Anhur, M • Isis, M • Osiris, M • Sebek, M • Set, M • Thard Harr, D • Aerdrie Faenya, E • Angharradh, E • Deep Sashelas, E • Rillifane Rallathil, E • Baervan Wildwanderer, G • Segojan Earthcaller, G • Auril, F • Fenmarel Mestarine, E • Hiatea, MM (giants) • Sekolah, MM (sahuagin) • Stronmaus, MM (cloud giants, storm giants) • Skerrit, MM (centaurs) • Tapann, MM (korreds) • Yeenoghu, MM (gnolls) • Cyrrollalee, H • Sheela Peryroyl, H • Solonor Thelandira, E • Talona, F • Kossuth, EL • Istishia, EL • Grumbar, EL • Akadi, EL Additionally, rangers (and rangers only, not druids) may receive divine spells from one of the following deities: • Shaundakul, F • Tempus, F • Garagos, F • Marthammor Duin, D • Corellon Larethian, E • Shevarash, E • Arvoreen, H
Faraer 06-30-07, 01:26 PM	The question is, is an elemental deity a nature deity for purposes of the druid list?That's not the question, because being a 'nature deity' isn't the criterion for supporting druids. It's just a quick generalized way to describe most of the gods that do.
MarkusTay63 06-30-07, 04:36 PM	Thinking on this a little more, I've come up with the following. A Druid of Kossuth WOULD be appropriate in a desert setting. Alchemy originally comes from Araby, and the thing called 'Alchemist's Fire' actually refers to salt. Salt is considered the 'life-giver' in desert settings. So, you can extrapolate from this that a druid of Kossuth would be venerating the life-giving qualities of salt, which in itself also has destructive qualities (corrosive, etc). You could call this a heresy of the Midani (Zakhara peoples), or even the folk of Calimshan. There is even a tribe of desert Elves in the Raurin that could use this 'desert aspect' of Kossuth. Just my :twocents:
GothicDan 06-30-07, 06:37 PM	But would that same Desert Druid function as a Druid in a woodland forest? I like the idea of specialized Sand/Fire Elementalists, myself.
MarkusTay63 06-30-07, 10:55 PM	No, I can't see a 'forest-protector' using fire, EVER. I was just offering up a highly specialized version of the Druid class, but he wouldn't be anything like the stereotypical druid. He'd be more along the lines of a desert Shaman to a tribe, but I suppose a loner-type is possible (a'la Ben Kenobi, the 'crazy hermit'). He'd probably carry a dousing rod instead of a Sheleighlee, and have all sorts of wierd desert-based spells, like 'find water' and 'Sand Witch'. ;)
GothicDan 06-30-07, 11:07 PM	The only thing is, the entire druid class, mechanically, was built with that 'stereotype' in mind. That's what I'm trying to get at. The Druid isn't like the 'generic' Cleric class. It's already a Specialty Priest, with a built-in dogma, and with powers meant to support that dogma.
Gray Richardson 07-01-07, 02:17 AM	No, I can't see a 'forest-protector' using fire, EVER.Real life forest rangers use fire all the time to protect forests. They set back burns to clear an area of fuel to stop a raging forest fire. They also have scheduled, controlled and carefully monitored burns to thin the deadwood during the wetter seasons out of areas that are in danger of uncontrolled forest fires during the hot, dry times. Good fire management includes the carefully controlled use of fire as a tool to keep the forests healthy and safe. Fire is built into the life cycles of many species. There are species of plant that die out unless their seeds are germinated by the heat of the fire charring the soil above the seed. The ash also helps to fertilize the soil, revitalizing the earth with rich nitrogen. In prairie ecosystems, in the wake of terrible fires that burn off the monoculture grains and grasses, you often see whole ecosystems errupt afresh after decades or more of dormancy. Soon after fires, ecologists have discovered "new" or thought-to-be extinct wildflowers and other plants that have not bloomed in a century or more due to farmers converting America's plains into farmland with only a handful of species allowed to dominate. Fire can help restore certain environments to the way they were before civilization and agriculture started macroengineering the land in unnatural ways on a massive scale. Even in America's untilled wilderlands, the Forestry service has discovered that periodic fires are a good and necessary thing to keep the environment healthy. They have learned that decades of fire prevention policies had actually damaged the forests by allowing scrub to grow thick, out competing some of the other species, and creating hazardous tinderboxes just waiting for a lightning strike or a stray cigarette to errupt into an inferno that can take out huge swaths of forest and even burn uncontrolled into populated areas, creating huge risks for residents of surrounding urban areas. A druid of Kossuth would know these things. He would appreciate that fire is a part of nature and has a role to play, just as much as any storm, tornado, or flood. Druids of Kossuth also appreciate how hateful elves are perverting the forests with their unnatural twisting of nature. Elves are damaging the trees by bending them to their alien wills. Elves are altering the landscape of the forest in subtle, yet terrible ways. Not only are the elves twisting trees into unnatural shapes, they are replacing entire native ecosystems with their tainted elfin cultivars. Elves are an infestation, just as bad or worse than any bark beetle, termite or kudzu vine. Afflicted trees must be burned to ash. Only the purging fires of Kossuth can save the pristine forests from an infestation of elves. Better to lose a few, elf-infested trees than a whole forest. The elves must be stopped at any cost. :mage:
Purple Dragon Knight 07-01-07, 08:31 AM	Awesome Gray! Awesome!
MerrikCale 07-01-07, 09:24 AM	A druid of Kossuth would know these things. He would appreciate that fire is a part of nature and has a role to play, just as much as any storm, tornado, or flood. Thats pretty much my point as well, but Gray put it much more eloquently
GothicDan 07-01-07, 12:40 PM	That is NOT what Kossuth teaches his clergy, though. That's not what he promotes at all. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make. Kossuth HATES Water and preaches for his clergy actively to go out and destroy it. Deities are living, breathing, thinking beings. Kossuth's hatred of Water and Istishia is even more integral than Shar and Selune's rivalries. Not to sound offensive, but have you people read Kossuth's entries in the deity books? And if so, are you willingly ignoring them? Kossuth and the other Elemental Deities are NOT the 'let's all play together, but separately' type of Elemental Lords. I have nothing against such deities, I'm just saying that's not what the current ones are like.
Drew1369r 07-01-07, 05:26 PM	If a dieties worshipper list includes Druids as a worshipper but is not a "nature" diety, who would they be receiving their spells from?
Purple Dragon Knight 07-01-07, 06:08 PM	If a dieties worshipper list includes Druids as a worshipper but is not a "nature" diety, who would they be receiving their spells from? Absolutely, and this was confirmed by the authors of Faiths & Pantheons (Sean K. Reynolds come to mind, but don't quote me as it was over a year ago). Basically, the bottom line is that the nature deity list of F&P is incomplete, and the FR design team told us that if you can find the words "druid" or "druids" somewhere in the entry, you can assume it's a nature deity granting spells to both druids and rangers. If the entry only mentions "ranger" or "rangers", then it grants spells to rangers, but maybe not to druids (which is why I separated my list at the end, with a "ranger-only" section) Edit: The flavour-texts of some Prestige Classes are a good spot to find such info, as it goes into details as to which class(es) commonly enter a PrC...
BadCatMan 07-01-07, 08:58 PM	That is NOT what Kossuth teaches his clergy, though. That's not what he promotes at all. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make. Kossuth HATES Water and preaches for his clergy actively to go out and destroy it. Deities are living, breathing, thinking beings. Kossuth's hatred of Water and Istishia is even more integral than Shar and Selune's rivalries. Not to sound offensive, but have you people read Kossuth's entries in the deity books? And if so, are you willingly ignoring them? Kossuth and the other Elemental Deities are NOT the 'let's all play together, but separately' type of Elemental Lords. I have nothing against such deities, I'm just saying that's not what the current ones are like. But aren't they completely "meh" about what their worshippers outside the elemental planes actually do? If they are so remote and disinterested, would they really care if one of their worshippers is a druid? There's certainly more to Kossuth than "burn stuff" and "destroy water stuff", or the other elemental deities. The primary aspects of his dogma are change and advancement to higher forms and purity via pain and suffering, particularly through cleansing flames. These are, at heart, fundamental aspects of the natural world (evolution, particularly disaster-borne evolution, and the hard truth of pain and suffering as a part of life), just as Gray described. The core philosophies of the other elemental deities have similar links.
GothicDan 07-01-07, 09:04 PM	Death is fundamental to the Natural World, too. So is Hatred and Love and Lying (humans are animals!). Does this mean that every deity ever should have Druids?
MerrikCale 07-01-07, 09:09 PM	Death is fundamental to the Natural World, too. So is Hatred and Love and Lying (humans are animals!). Does this mean that every deity ever should have Druids? Of course not, but fire is an aspect of nature as much as water, air, and the soil
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 09:36 PM	Just chalk it up as a heresy, like I said. I think the Elemental Lords would care less about heresies then any other gods.
bitter thorn 07-01-07, 10:04 PM	Awesome Gray! Awesome! I agree. BTW, Mystra has rangers, IIRC. Tymora also has rangers; Myrmeen Lhal would be an example.
bitter thorn 07-01-07, 10:24 PM	Death is fundamental to the Natural World, too. So is Hatred and Love and Lying (humans are animals!). Does this mean that every deity ever should have Druids? Not really, but I'm also not going to create scores or hundreds of specific new classes for the sundry deities. If you have the time and inclination to do so for your game, I tip my hat to you. Malar represents a fairly narrow aspect of nature too. Should he be prohibited from having Druids? In 3.x Druids are no longer specialty priests. They are their own distinct class. I think that character options should be approached in the least restrictive manner and not with the narrowest reading. I can identify with your frustration about how changes in mechanics can create some torturous lore issues, but I still think the game mechanics should be handled in a manner that maximizes story choices while preserving continuity as much as possible. Sometimes such a balance can be tough to achieve, especially when there are already some continuity challenges in the existing material.
GothicDan 07-01-07, 11:00 PM	Of course not, but fire is an aspect of nature as much as water, air, and the soil What makes you think that less tangible things aren't aspects of nature? Nature is what IS. Corruption IS. Death IS. Hatred IS. Are you saying that such things are supernatural in origin?
GothicDan 07-01-07, 11:02 PM	Not really, but I'm also not going to create scores or hundreds of specific new classes for the sundry deities. If you have the time and inclination to do so for your game, I tip my hat to you. I do. Malar represents a fairly narrow aspect of nature too. Should he be prohibited from having Druids? Certainly. He represents vicious, carnivorous nature gone rabid and out of control. That's not very Druidic. In 3.x Druids are no longer specialty priests. They are their own distinct class. I think that character options should be approached in the least restrictive manner and not with the narrowest reading. I can identify with your frustration about how changes in mechanics can create some torturous lore issues, but I still think the game mechanics should be handled in a manner that maximizes story choices while preserving continuity as much as possible. Sometimes such a balance can be tough to achieve, especially when there are already some continuity challenges in the existing material. If you hadn't noticed, it was largely the mechanics I was using to support my arguments (Wild Shifting and the spell lists having NOTHING to do with a lot of these gods). Classes' mechanics are based on themes, even in 3.X. That's why Fighters aren't throwing Fireballs and why Monks aren't Resurrecting people.
Purple Dragon Knight 07-02-07, 07:46 PM	Fire is an integral force of nature. That's why druids have always had flamestrike on their spell list and that's why they've always been able to summon fire elementals. That's also why they've always been able to go to the Plane of Fire without getting hurt when they get to high levels. If a DM has a problem with druids casting flaming sphere, flame blade, fire seeds, fire storm, flame strike, fire trap and countless other fire spells that escape me right now, then that's a personal issue and not something supported by the Realms or the general D&D rules. As far as I'm concerned, I personally think that a circle of druids for each elemental god makes perfect sense.
mcJoker 07-03-07, 04:05 AM	I didn't realize just how much controversy my question would actually cause...though all in all, this has become quite a constructive thread. :cool: I understand a lot of your points and arguments GothicDan, however I don't think one should 'limit' a druid to how the majority of his class acts. I especially like the ideas that Gray brought into this thread and will see if we can come to an agreement of sorts. If not, at least we'll be able to agree on disagreeing. ;) A druid, as with many other classes, can sway from his/her original intentions and values...I won't even go into the possibilities of that particular part of character development...yet still be following the class mandates. For example...a druid of Malar might have become disenchanted with the 'effectiveness' of a druidic circle, through diverse 'revelations' or 'experiences' come to believe that only the strong and the fittest will be able to effectively defend the forests. Recall that in Malar's dogma it is stated "Work against those who cut back the forest and who kill beasts solely because they are dangerous." He would be representative of the fury of nature's creatures. More likely to work in a pack than a circle and more ferocious or feral in nature. Still a druid however. Slowly getting to fire...even Silvanus, the Treefather, uses fire though he combats it. It's in the first sentence of his dogma: "Silvanus sees and balances all, meting out wild water and drought, fire and ice, life and death." So he does allow the use of fire though water is one of his domains. To his followers there is no 'best'...they should keep their distance and take a look at the total situation in order to maintain balance in the cycle of life. As far as the druidic orders or nature-based gods that fight fire more actively, their druids would be less likely to use spells like fire wall, flame strike and so on. It could even be RPd to the extent that the particular deity does not offer these spells (which is up to the DM of course). And finally getting to Kossuth: Gray Richardson wrote it up the best so far...would only add a few ideas to that. Of course any follower of Kossuth who receives his divine magic would be required to follow him along the lines of his dogma and not just be giving him lip-service. Therefore a druid of Kossuth would see himself as strong and superior to other druids who tie themselves down to circles and debates, trying to balance all aspects instead of actively fighting the forest's enemies. The druid would have gone through some personal pain (which, let's face it, most characters seem to go through regardless) which caused him to turn to the cleansing flame. The druid would care less about the open battle between the clergy of Kossuth and Istishia (it is Istishia who seeks to douse the flames, Kossuth merely looks upon him as pathetic and weak...he is not advocating the active destruction of water as he is the protection of the cleansing flame) and focus more on the purification through fire. Using the flame to cleanse the forests of what befalls them (depending on his point of view of what is a danger to them), preferring to burn sections of forests over letting the 'disease(s)' in them spread to the rest of the woods. The druid would be more of a loner as he would most likely have a fiery temper and (see above) consider himself superior to others. (This of course makes it a bit difficult to put together a group) Granted, this druid would be seen as a tainted, twisted perversion by the majority of druids...however so are the druids of Malar. As to the druid himself, he would not see it that way...he has discovered the power of the cleansing flame and uses it to cleanse and purify that which requires it. I was thinking of limitations...yet, besides not using spells associated with the other elements (like drown, stone-skin, gust of wind) the only I can think of at the moment would be that a druid of Kossuth would most likely not be a wood or wild elf (perhaps none of the elf folk). This, in addition to Gray's post a bit earlier in the thread is actually becoming a viable character. :D Any more ideas/concepts? Am even looking forward to arguments against...keep it coming!
Zanan 07-03-07, 04:29 AM	Just in case ... F&A clearly pointed in the right direction when they "introduced" shamans rather than druids into Kossuth faith, i.e. people more concerned with the forces of Nature rather than "Nature as a whole" itself. There are various d20 books on shamans and there are various D&D books featuring shamans too, well sort of. I doubt that each and every faiths needs a specific specialty priest class / PrC*, but a general way to build faiths specific PrC by using domains and substitution levels would do. So there should be typical rogue/cleric, fighter/cleric, monk/cleric etc. PrC which could be customized easily to every faith by adding a thing here and there, as determined by the respective faiths. *Well, I now that GD rather wants whole classes for each faith again ;)
Purple Dragon Knight 07-04-07, 12:48 AM	Wow mcJoker... you just brought this to a whole new level! I was just thinking of druids using fire for fire's sake, as it is a part of nature, but to use it to kill tree diseases and insect plagues is just genius! Yes, keep those ideas coming. This is awesome! Hey, another idea: Kossuth druids could sometime band together to burn down an encroaching village or a logger's camp that goes overboard in the cuttin'... and because they're Lawful Neutral, one could even see these guys as Royal Land Registry enforcers, a king's last resort. HERALD: "By going ahead with this land development without the proper approvals, and since you have ignored all previous warnings and recommendations issued as part of the mediation process, you are therefore guilty of an offence under article 4.5 of the King's Forest Act, which is punishable by controlled burning of your community. You have exactly 24 hours to evacuate this area and gather your belongings. Purple Dragons have been made available to assist in your relocation to three pre-selected communities, but you are free to relocate anywhere if you have business or family which can assist in the endeavour. In 24 hours exactly, the Royal Flame Wardens will enter the area and burn whatever is left to the ground. Replanting of the forest will begin in the fall."
bitter thorn 07-04-07, 01:05 AM	@ PDK, I like the way you think!
mcJoker 07-06-07, 12:25 PM	Wow mcJoker... you just brought this to a whole new level! I was just thinking of druids using fire for fire's sake, as it is a part of nature, but to use it to kill tree diseases and insect plagues is just genius! Yes, keep those ideas coming. This is awesome! Hey, another idea: Kossuth druids could sometime band together to burn down an encroaching village or a logger's camp that goes overboard in the cuttin'... and because they're Lawful Neutral, one could even see these guys as Royal Land Registry enforcers, a king's last resort. HERALD: "By going ahead with this land development without the proper approvals, and since you have ignored all previous warnings and recommendations issued as part of the mediation process, you are therefore guilty of an offence under article 4.5 of the King's Forest Act, which is punishable by controlled burning of your community. You have exactly 24 hours to evacuate this area and gather your belongings. Purple Dragons have been made available to assist in your relocation to three pre-selected communities, but you are free to relocate anywhere if you have business or family which can assist in the endeavour. In 24 hours exactly, the Royal Flame Wardens will enter the area and burn whatever is left to the ground. Replanting of the forest will begin in the fall." Definately an interesting concept! Though I'm not sure if such druids would willingly work for an institution/king/lord/etc. ...although it does give a few ideas of why they could, and would, work together... :cool:
Nevine 07-08-07, 07:50 PM	the Elemental Archon PrC entry in F&P mentions druids of Kossuth. The Black Flame Zealot in Unapproachable East, also says druids and rangers are eligible for the class (though they are scarce in Thay). Kossuth must be your patron deity to join the class.
Zanan 07-09-07, 04:34 AM	The Black Flame Zealot in Unapproachable East, also says druids and rangers are eligible for the class (though they are scarce in Thay). Kossuth must be your patron deity to join the class. See, that's why you "like" opening new sourcebooks. Each and everyone features an exception to the existing rules, especially when one looks at it since the ascendence of 3E.
Drew1369r 07-09-07, 10:36 PM	See, that's why you "like" opening new sourcebooks. Each and everyone features an exception to the existing rules, especially when one looks at it since the ascendence of 3E. How is being a druid of Kossuth an exception to the rule? It states he has druid worshippers in F&P... so if he isn't a "nature" diety who would be granting the spells?
Zanan 07-10-07, 04:18 AM	How is being a druid of Kossuth an exception to the rule? It states he has druid worshippers in F&P... so if he isn't a "nature" diety who would be granting the spells? No AD&D source on Kossuth has any druids, just shamans (described in F&A). The FRCS as well as F&P states all the Nature deities that druids (and rangers who want to cast spells) have to chose. F&P states that Kossuth has druids as worshippers, but not as divine casters, an important difference. It would be no surprise if druids worship all deities that have to do with Nature (without being Nature deities), here the element Fire. Now, Unapproachable East at least intimates the existence of druids of Kossuth, as the Black Flame Zealots require both divine spellcasting ability and Kossuth as patron - and you can't have one without the other. Thus my statement regarding new books introducing new rules and bending if not breaking existing lore.
Drew1369r 07-10-07, 01:00 PM	Never seen F&A so I can't comment and therefor irrelevent to this conversation... F&P stats with the elemental archon PRC that Druids can take the class so is only a couple of elemental lords nature?... and not being a divine druid makes no sense what so ever how can you be a non-divine druid class?
Nevine 07-10-07, 03:39 PM	Not worth it, nevermind. This is not the post you are looking for, move along.