Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Renvale999 06-26-07, 12:58 PM	Okay, so coming up we are starting an evil game at 4th lvl. I want to play an elven rogue going for assassin. I just want to get some suggestions on a few things from all you bright and intelligent people on the FR board(No sarcasm, I promise, I mean it). The elf is male/Neutral Evil and is concentrating on stealth and killing at range. BTW, we are starting in the Forgotten Realms, not sure where yet. 1. Is there any other PRC I could add to this character that wouldn't stretch me too thin and let me still build on abilities? 2. Are there any feats out there that help you kill at range besides the point blank shot, precise shot...etc. 3. Besides Stealth and Skill Focus, are there any other feats that will help me move silent and without being seen?? 4. Any other suggestions would be most welcome such as equipment, other feats, play-style. Thanks in advance for all your help.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-26-07, 05:19 PM	Okay, so coming up we are starting an evil game at 4th lvl. I want to play an elven rogue going for assassin. I just want to get some suggestions on a few things from all you bright and intelligent people on the FR board(No sarcasm, I promise, I mean it). The elf is male/Neutral Evil and is concentrating on stealth and killing at range. BTW, we are starting in the Forgotten Realms, not sure where yet. 1. Is there any other PRC I could add to this character that wouldn't stretch me too thin and let me still build on abilities? 2. Are there any feats out there that help you kill at range besides the point blank shot, precise shot...etc. 3. Besides Stealth and Skill Focus, are there any other feats that will help me move silent and without being seen?? 4. Any other suggestions would be most welcome such as equipment, other feats, play-style. Thanks in advance for all your help. 1. Look up the shadow smith in tome of magic for a good hiding/ms bonuses, etc. Otherwise a couple lvls fighter for feats and bab. 2. Deadeye shot is a great feat(PH2), also look up the complete scoundrel for some great feats as well as skill tricks(spot the weak spot, mosquito bite). 3. Your best bet on ms/hide bonuses are from magic items rather than feats. Cloak and boots of elven kind are common cheap items. Look into flick of the wrist and quicker than the eye. 4. Knockback is a great weapon atribute that can throw your enemies into each other, over ravines, or simply thrown too the ground or backwards. Otherwise invest in items that make you undetectable, possibly invis, quiet, etc. such as ring of misdirection/boots of tracklessness/silent portal discs, etc.
Dr_Tough 06-26-07, 09:52 PM	You could try some levels of ranger or cleric (of Mask). Both contain fairly useful abilities for a rogue. They're also easy to defend in a character concept.
Drew1369r 06-27-07, 02:35 AM	Sleight of hand... max it so you can conceal the dagger... look like a hobo on the street (You can pull that off in real life so it shouldn't be difficult for your character ;) ) slieght of hand the dagger out to your hand when your target walks by and BAM!!! Knife in the eye!!! Other the that go your average rogue skills and feats and you will kick ass!
The_Shaman 06-27-07, 10:00 AM	Okay, so coming up we are starting an evil game at 4th lvl. I want to play an elven rogue going for assassin. I just want to get some suggestions on a few things from all you bright and intelligent people on the FR board(No sarcasm, I promise, I mean it). The elf is male/Neutral Evil and is concentrating on stealth and killing at range. BTW, we are starting in the Forgotten Realms, not sure where yet. 1. Is there any other PRC I could add to this character that wouldn't stretch me too thin and let me still build on abilities? Justice of Weald and Woe sounds like it can fit you, at least if you do not mind being a longbow specialist; it is imo an archery-assassin hybrid already. Plus, it is strongly affiliated with an evil elven group, which you might want to work with anyway. Check if any friend has the Champions of Ruin book (btw, get this even if you do not go for the PrC, it has some great spells, too). I think you can houserule that Death Attack DCs might stack with assassin levels, although it is a bit of a stretch. Aside from that, Daggermasters might prefer the invisible blade and/or master thrower. Unapproachable East has the Teflammar Shadowlord, which - even though it does not advance SA - is just darn nice. 2. Are there any feats out there that help you kill at range besides the point blank shot, precise shot...etc. Deadeye shot is quite nice. Anything that lets you wield poison with less risk is also nice when you want to spice up your arrows, and (greater) manyshot makes it that much more worthwhile. 3. Besides Stealth and Skill Focus, are there any other feats that will help me move silent and without being seen?? I like swift and silent from the PGtF book. Moving at full speed without penalty to MS can be very nice. Anything that helps with your sniping is also great, iirc there were some nifty feats in Races of the Wild but I am AFB right now. 4. Any other suggestions would be most welcome such as equipment, other feats, play-style. If you are into bows, check the splitting enhancement in CoRuin. It is like Natural Spell for archers, although it requires precise shot. It is rather expensive, though. Poison, otoh, can be relatively cheap, especially if you can devote enough ranks in crafting to make it (too bad it has its own craft, I would have expected it to fall under alchemy). If you do not mind a little multiclassing, a few ranger or fighter levels can help you a good deal - archers need any feat they get, and extra BAB (hence extra attacks) helps a lot. OTOH, spellcasting classes provide you with a lot of options, too.
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 10:26 PM	1. Is there any other PRC I could add to this character that wouldn't stretch me too thin and let me still build on abilities? -There is the Justice of Weald and Woe PrC, from Lords of Darkness, and/or Champions of Ruin (It might be in one, or both). You would have to be part of the Eldreth Veluuthra to qualify for this PrC, since the Eldreth Veluuthra is the organization that teaches and trains these Elves. -Maybe take a level or two in Ranger, to get that Favored Enemy bonus? 4. Any other suggestions would be most welcome such as equipment, other feats, play-style. -Well, Elven Chain, Boots of Elvenkind and a Cloak of Elvenkind is always good. Maybe an Oathbow, perhaps?
Dxzauvrinn 06-29-07, 01:54 PM	Justice of Weald and Woe sounds like it can fit you, at least if you do not mind being a longbow specialist; it is imo an archery-assassin hybrid already. Plus, it is strongly affiliated with an evil elven group, which you might want to work with anyway. Check if any friend has the Champions of Ruin book (btw, get this even if you do not go for the PrC, it has some great spells, too). I think you can houserule that Death Attack DCs might stack with assassin levels, although it is a bit of a stretch. Death attack DCs stack.
Green Elven Vampire 06-29-07, 02:33 PM	Here is a PrC designed just for an Elven Assassin. Let me know what you think. Elven Assassin The Elven Assassin is the master of elven retribution and swift justice! Whenever a great crime against the elven people is commited, the phantom blade is called to seek justice with vengence. The Elven assassin is the retributor for the good of their people, and the cold revenge of the elven Royal Crown! Their training in stealth, anatomy, and dealing quick, lethal blows allows them to carry out missions of revenge with shocking, horrifying, and breath taking, elogent precision. Hit Die: d6 Requirements: Race: Elf or Half elf. Base Attack: +4 Skills: Move silently 7 ranks, Hide 7 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks, Intimidate 8 ranks. Feats: Weapon Focus (ray or energy missile spells), Stealthy, Flick of the wrist. Special: The character must have previously suffered a great loss before she can become a elven assassin. The elven assassin must be able to cast arcane or Divine spells of at least 1'st level, or higher. Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Innuendo (Wis), Forgery (Int), Intimidate (Cha) Open locks (Dex), Hide (Dex), Gather information (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape artist (Dex), Move silently (Dex), Search (Int), Read lips (Int, exclusive skill), Sense Motive (Wis) Skill points at Each level: 4 +Int Modifier. Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Elven Assassin's weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for Stealth and Sneak attacks by both blade and magic. She is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as with light armor. Spells per day: A Elven Assassin's training focuses on subtle and stealthy offensive magic. Thus, at 2'nd level, & when a character gains a new Even level of elven assassin, she gains new spells per day as if she aso gained a level in whatever spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not however gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. Sneak Attack (Ex): Starting at 1'st level, as the Rogue ability, this ability stacks with any other sneak attack bonuses. If you sneak attack with ray or energy misile spells and with a successful attack you deal 1d6+2 points of damage. (This increases by +2d6+3 at 3'rd level, +3d6+4 at 5'th level, and so on). This ability increases every other level. Shadow Combat (Ex): At 3'rd level, If she makes a successful Hide in Shadow check she gains a +4 bonus to her AC while fighting an opponent anywhere there are shadows around. Once removed from the shadows for any reason (such as a light spell) she looses all bonuses from this ability. Ghost Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2'nd level, this ability is exactly like the uncanny dodge ability used by rogues (Dex. bonus to AC), except that it also gives her a +2 bonus modifer to the DC against any spell requireing a Dexterty check. Masterful Intimidation (Su): Elves that take the path of the elven assassin have a certain aura about them that causes an emotional effect upon those around her. Whether Fearful or Respectful, she Intimidates almost everyone! She adds her number of elven assassin levels to all intimidate checks. (An 8'th level elven assassin adds +8 to all intimidate checks). This ability starts at 1'st level. Subtle Death (Ex): At 7'th level, The elven assassin that makes a successful melee sneak attack roll and exceeds the opponents AC by a roll of 5 or more may use her off hand to strike another sneak attack at the same opponent in that round as a free action! Also at 7'th level, if she makes a successful melee sneak attack roll and exceeds the opponents AC by a roll of 5 or more, she can use her off hand to cast any spell with a range of touch at the same opponent in that round as a free action. Lvl-BAB-Fort-Ref-Will-special-spell level 1-+0-+0-+2-+0-Arcane ttack- Sneak Attack- Masterful Intimidation 2-+1-+0-+3-+0-Ghost Dodge- +1 spell lvl 3-+2-+1-+3-+1-shadow combat- Sneak Attack- 4-+3-+1-+4-+1- +1 spell lvl 5-+3-+1-+4-+1- Sneak Attack 6-+4-+2-+5-+2- +1 spell lvl 7-+5-+2-+5-+2- Sneak Attack- Subtle death 8-+6-+2-+6-+2- +1 spell lvl 9-+6-+3-+6-+3- Sneak Attack 10-+7-+3-+7-+3- +1 spell lvl
Lord Karsus 06-29-07, 06:33 PM	The elven assassin must be able to cast arcane or Divine spells of at least 1'st level, or higher. -Why are one of the requirements the ability Arcane/Divine magic? Seems a little unneccesary to me. -And, truthfully, I find the entire concept unbelievable, and unneccesary. Why would Queen Amlauril, a good Elf, have "royal assassins", especially after what happened to her husband? Is an Elf Rogue, with the proper feats, and whatnot, not "N'Vaelahrn" enough?
Drew1369r 06-29-07, 08:57 PM	because sometimes you need to hire someone with the skills needed to do the job
Lord Karsus 06-30-07, 08:02 PM	because sometimes you need to hire someone with the skills needed to do the job -According to GEV, they aren't hired. They work for Queen Amlauril. Why would a Chaotic Good Chosen of the Seldarine have hired killers to off specific individuals? That seems to go against almost everything most Elves are.
Drew1369r 07-01-07, 02:16 AM	-According to GEV, they aren't hired. They work for Queen Amlauril. Why would a Chaotic Good Chosen of the Seldarine have hired killers to off specific individuals? That seems to go against almost everything most Elves are. I would think of it as plausible deny-ability. Or to say stave off a war you can't win except to kill this one person! I'm sorry Lloth it wasn't us who hired an assassin that killed you biggest high priestess! (just an example I know she wouldn't care) But these are just thoughts
The_Shaman 07-01-07, 04:27 AM	If said individuals are drow or orc, no it would not. Elves can be rather practical in their warfare, imo. Anyway, imo the Justice (CoR is the more recent version, although Lords of Darkness might have had something on them) is your best bet.
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 12:44 AM	I would think of it as plausible deny-ability. Or to say stave off a war you can't win except to kill this one person! -As Shaman said, Elves are conventional in their warfare. There isn't too much subterfuge and such. And, again, Queen Amlauril isn't going to sink to assassination. I'm sorry Lloth it wasn't us who hired an assassin that killed you biggest high priestess! (just an example I know she wouldn't care) -Even though they are, Drow can't be considered Elves in this case, as their society runs to far extreme to the mainstream Elven society we are talking about.
Drew1369r 07-02-07, 02:25 AM	--Even though they are, Drow can't be considered Elves in this case, as their society runs to far extreme to the mainstream Elven society we are talking about. What I ment with that example is say an elven prince hiring an assassin to kill the priestess of Lloth to stave off a war... these are just examples nothing more nothing less
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 09:54 AM	What I ment with that example is say an elven prince hiring an assassin to kill the priestess of Lloth to stave off a war... these are just examples nothing more nothing less -That wouldn't happen, though. What I could see happening is that the Elven prince in question contacts the local church of Shevarash, and a group of Dhaerowathila track the priestess down and kill her, along with any other Drow they find on their way. Hiring assassins, and crusading with a CN deity are two seperate things. One is acceptable, the other is not.
The_Shaman 07-03-07, 04:21 AM	What I ment with that example is say an elven prince hiring an assassin to kill the priestess of Lloth to stave off a war... these are just examples nothing more nothing less If it happened, so what? Elves, unlike paladins, are not under a compulsion to associate with evil characters. However, chances are he will not approach an actual assassin, but someone more reliable, say a ranger order or the like. Or, in the case of a more ruthless noble, the Eldreth Veluuthra (hope I spelled it right).
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 10:19 AM	Or, in the case of a more ruthless noble, the Eldreth Veluuthra (hope I spelled it right). -Yes, yes you did.
joepoe 07-03-07, 10:51 AM	Imo: check out the Lurk from Complete Psionic. By taking a feat in the same book, you can use augments with ranged weapons. As a 6th lvl Lurk, you can take Assassin prc. A Lurk's prime attribute is int/dex, the same as an Assassin. The best and most versatile assassin build I've seen!
Zevox 07-03-07, 03:38 PM	Equipment suggestion: If you can, get ahold of a Ring of Blinking. You'll never be unable to sneak attack again with that thing - foes are always flat-footed when you use it, plus you get +2 to all attacks as though you were invisible, plus theres the 50% miss chance on attacks and spells against you, and the only drawback is a 20% miss chance on your own attacks. Otherwise, a good bow and some hide/move silently boosting items are what you'll want. Maybe if your party has a caster who can enchant items, things like armor of shadow and silent moves could be a great benefit. As for a bow, the seeking enchantment is good (allows you to ignore concealment, which would otherwise prevent sneak attacks), and otherwise whatever you want is probably good. All the level and feat suggestions I could think of have already been said, so I'll leave off here. Zevox
SwordofShar 07-04-07, 11:38 AM	I like the Feats: Able Sniper, and Telling Blow for my Rogues and Assassins. And for Items: anything that bumps up your intelligence (therefore increasing your Death Attack DC). I also like that magic ability for armor that makes it appear to be normal clothes, I think it's called Glamered...but I could be mistaken, I don't have my books with me at the moment. And a Bag of Holding is nice to conceal extra disguises, equipment. And a Glove of Storing (with a dagger concealed in it) just in case! That's just some ideas to bounce off.
Green Elven Vampire 07-04-07, 12:12 PM	I would think of it as plausible deny-ability. Or to say stave off a war you can't win except to kill this one person! I'm sorry Lloth it wasn't us who hired an assassin that killed you biggest high priestess! (just an example I know she wouldn't care) But these are just thoughts You are right on the money man. :cool: Just cause you have somebody killed by professionals doesn't mean you're evil. Sometimes you need a certain kind of bad to fight off evil.
Green Elven Vampire 07-04-07, 12:14 PM	-That wouldn't happen, though. What I could see happening is that the Elven prince in question contacts the local church of Shevarash, and a group of Dhaerowathila track the priestess down and kill her, along with any other Drow they find on their way. Hiring assassins, and crusading with a CN deity are two seperate things. One is acceptable, the other is not. What do you think the Dhaerowathila are?? They hunt and slaughter drow on sight for a cause. Hmmmmm... assassin anyone?
Lord Karsus 07-04-07, 06:11 PM	What do you think the Dhaerowathila are?? They hunt and slaughter drow on sight for a cause. Hmmmmm... assassin anyone? -Assassins in the sense of the definition of the word, not the D&D class. European Crusaders hunted down and slaughtered the Muslims in the Holy Land. Were they assassins? No, they were mostly knights. Were they assassins in the sense of the word? Theoretically, yes. Were they assassins in the sense of the D&D class? No. -And, as a side not, many Dhaerowathila are, in fact, evil.
Green Elven Vampire 07-05-07, 04:53 PM	-Assassins in the sense of the definition of the word, not the D&D class. European Crusaders hunted down and slaughtered the Muslims in the Holy Land. Were they assassins? No, they were mostly knights. Were they assassins in the sense of the word? Theoretically, yes. Were they assassins in the sense of the D&D class? No. -And, as a side not, many Dhaerowathila are, in fact, evil. Actually I believe that christians in general are genocidal assassins and murderers!! And my point is this... if you assassinate someone for money or revenge or whatever, then why not call yourself assassin? If you don't agree with my class description then fill in the blanks yourself as you see fit for the class presented. And I made spell level requirements for the PrC being that the class has spell progression and thought it prudent. This PrC isn't your average run of the mill assassin who uses poison and other mundane killing methods, but rather something along the lines of a Mage Killer but made just for elves. Think about the novel Blackstaff and how Khelben mentions that there are elves who would kill and slaughter anyone who stumbles apon ancient elven artifacts, even if those beings are goodly in alignment. That would make them assassins for the people and their culture and heritage. Do you know the scene in the novel I am talking about by any chance?
Duagloth 07-05-07, 05:42 PM	Think about the novel Blackstaff and how Khelben mentions that there are elves who would kill and slaughter anyone who stumbles apon ancient elven artifacts, even if those beings are goodly in alignment. That would make them assassins for the people and their culture and heritage. Not really. If they specifically go out, track down 1 person for an other person, who gives them something back in return. That would make them an assasine. Assasin = killing for payment Just killing for their own reason doesnt make them an assasin.
Drew1369r 07-05-07, 06:17 PM	To assassinate is not just for monetary gains... sorry to say, could be ideological, political, or even personal.
Lord Karsus 07-05-07, 06:35 PM	Actually I believe that christians in general are genocidal assassins and murderers!! -Which is neither here nor there. And my point is this... if you assassinate someone for money or revenge or whatever, then why not call yourself assassin? -That's all fine and good, but the characters who take your PrC aren't killing for money, or revenge (though, how you want to interpret revenge leaves it a possibility). They are simply taking orders to assassinate select individuals by the Elven Queen, an action that is very uncharacter-like. Think about the novel Blackstaff and how Khelben mentions that there are elves who would kill and slaughter anyone who stumbles apon ancient elven artifacts, even if those beings are goodly in alignment. -Those are the Olin Gisiae. They protect ancient sites and secrets, to contain what is within, and to deny passage to. That would make them assassins for the people and their culture and heritage. -No, that would make them defenders of their culture and heritage. Would you call a tomb guardian an assassin, after killing someone who defiled a tomb? Do you know the scene in the novel I am talking about by any chance? -I recall it, but I can't give you a page number.
Faraer 07-05-07, 06:57 PM	And my point is this... if you assassinate someone for money or revenge or whatever, then why not call yourself assassin?The Realms has its own terms for 'assassin' -- 'slayer-for-hire', 'slayknife', 'slyblade', etc., which I prefer to use since 'assassin' makes me think of the Hashishin.
Lord Karsus 07-05-07, 08:18 PM	The Realms has its own terms for 'assassin' -- 'slayer-for-hire', 'slayknife', 'slyblade', etc., which I prefer to use since 'assassin' makes me think of the Hashishin. -We are already arguing about semantics and abstract usage- no need to further complicate things at this point. -And, as a side note, assassin seems to be a perfectly acceptable term for the profession, as the exact term is used multiple times, referring to the profession, in multiple sources- The FRCS, Lords of Darkness, and Champions of Ruin, among others.
Faraer 07-05-07, 08:24 PM	I didn't say otherwise. My 'complication' is relevant information for those reading this thread who might not have it, and to suggest that a uniquely elven term might be best here.
Lord Karsus 07-05-07, 08:29 PM	-It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Queen Amlauril would sanction, and condone an Elven corps of assassins working to "protect Evermeet", which is the main crux of our problem here.
Faraer 07-05-07, 10:38 PM	Not Renvale999's, who asked for suggestions in general.
Lord Karsus 07-05-07, 10:46 PM	-You were originally responding to GEV, who was having the conversating with me regarding what I outlined above.
Steelwind 07-06-07, 11:18 AM	Another PrC with good synergy is Telflammer Shadowlord from Unapproachable East, shadow pounce is a awesome ability, only problem is its pretty hard on the feat prereqs. Also is the great death attack you will have, with a Rog5/Asn9/TSl6 you will have a base death attack of 25+int or 28+int with an assasins dagger and ability focus. Hope this helps. ;)
Steelwind 07-06-07, 11:20 AM	Also to reply to the ongoing debate, I dont exactly see Amlauril having assasins of any alignment in her employ either.
mcJoker 07-07-07, 06:35 PM	First off...to try and stay on topic. Okay, so coming up we are starting an evil game at 4th lvl. I want to play an elven rogue going for assassin. I just want to get some suggestions on a few things from all you bright and intelligent people on the FR board(No sarcasm, I promise, I mean it). The elf is male/Neutral Evil and is concentrating on stealth and killing at range. BTW, we are starting in the Forgotten Realms, not sure where yet. 1. Is there any other PRC I could add to this character that wouldn't stretch me too thin and let me still build on abilities? Other than what has been mentioned already...I would actually recommend just going with the straight rogue/assassin build. Sure...there are great features available with a lot of the other PrCs...but not really needed. If you do want a third class, ranger would be decent to have...especially if your character will be specializing in who he wants to assassinate. I also would not recommend fighter or barbarian since, imho, they become somewhat irrelevant as choices for an assassin who wants to kill from the distance. 2. Are there any feats out there that help you kill at range besides the point blank shot, precise shot...etc. They've all been mentioned already, so nothing to add there. 3. Besides Stealth and Skill Focus, are there any other feats that will help me move silent and without being seen?? Same as with question #2 4. Any other suggestions would be most welcome such as equipment, other feats, play-style. Well...if you were to bring in the ranger class it offers tracking (for the one that tries to get away/proves to be difficult to kill in one blow) and woodland stride (helpful both in following someone as well as escaping capture in any wooded environment...well, besides magical). Add to that the favored enemy at 1st, 5th and every 5 levels on; and the selection of combat style (you gain rapid shot regardless if you meet the requirements or not if selecting archery) at 2nd level...well, I guess you can see what I'm getting at. ;) So...and on a side note... :rolleyes: ...though I think this belongs in a separate thread. Though the Elven Assassin is a nice build I have to agree that the elven court would never use them. It seems more likely to be a build that the Eldreth Veluuthra would train and use, or perhaps a similar type of elven organisation. Perhaps one could focus it around an entirely new group, like one who wishes to discredit the court...not the crown though. Personally I would also recommend changing the following on the build (not meant personally...just what I would do differently, myself).: Get rid of the suffering great loss requirement...nothing personal, but I'm actually beginning to sicken of the whole 'Oh woe is me...I shall seek out vengence!' routine... Change the Sneak Attack to Death Attack...it is an assassin after all. Get rid of Masterful Intimidation. If an assassin has to intimidate someone, then something went wrong. It's about killing without being seen...or, for the kick, without being caught. Intimidation is a social skill...by all means keep it as a class skill to invest points into, but anything beyond that is overkill.