Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khaira 07-09-07, 02:33 PM	As a DM, I am commonly running into players who frequently use metagame tactics. The most common example I've run into is the undead dilemma, and players (not even clerics or divine casters, either) "knowing" the bludgeoning weapons are the only mundane weapons that affect undead. I know in FR (where I frequently run), the undead are invariably evil and it's next to impossible (rather, it is) to have a neutral or good necromancer. At least, that's my findings: someone contradict me, please, if I am mistaken in this. In any case, I was wondering how much common knowledge a typical person - or a typical adventurer - would have about undead. Would most people know that bludgeoning weapons affect the undead? Would most people know that undead are composed of negative energy and consequently harmed by positive energy, thus deducing that clerics are bane to undead? In any case, to the end of countering meta gaming, I have decided to construct new undead - more likely an undead template, as it were, that made the undead positive energy powered. Likely this would result in them becoming susceptible to sneak attacks, Fortitude saves, and some other things that the typical undead are NOT susceptible to, but also making them nearly immune to turning attempts. I plan on introducing this into my game as a potential counter to metagame tactics, so that the characters and not the players are doing the thinking. My question here: Is an undead infused with positive energy a totally off-the-wall, I'm-crazy-and-need-a-new-hobby thought? Or could it be plausbile?
Faraer 07-09-07, 02:50 PM	Do your players know you want them to play their characters with only their characters' knowledge? If so, they're betraying your trust. Ask them to stop. If not, make sure they do. Talk to them and agree what it is the characters know. Get on the same page for the campaign. Although occasional variant monsters are a good idea, if they want to metagame, no amount of superficial in-game bandages will stop them. This is a misunderstanding/conflict of interests/discord etc. between people: the game is just its context. Yes, most necromancers are evil. Never say never. Except for sages and the few people who regularly come in contact with undead, people know folklore and accounts at one or more removes. If you don't have access to detailed information -- from veteran adventurers, libraries, etc. -- you don't know it. It's not unreasonable to guess that a mace might be more effective against an animated skeleton than a sword. Everyone knows that priests have powers against the undead. Only knowledgable mages and priests know anything about positive and negative energy. I'll leave the positive-energy undead question for someone else.
MaskedOne 07-09-07, 02:51 PM	At one point, I believe mummies had ties to Positive Energy but it may have changed and it would some time for me to confirm anything. More to the point, I have few extreme objections to undead powered in some way by positive energy. There are I should point out non-evil sentient undead. Archliches and Baelnorns come to mind but such creatures are difficult to locate unless one has the poor taste to start despoiling the wrong elven tombs or specifically hunt one down. Clerics being bane to undead is common knowledge far as I know. To many tales about clerics driving them away. Not knowing would be like not knowing about the Catholic Church having a Ritual of Exorcism. The exact reason that a cleric is bane to undead may not be known but that they are such should be. The value of bludgeoning weapons being known, I can't say as much on. I don't normally consider the issue, my permanent answer to most (red dragons among others are partially exempt) things that don't die properly is fire and magic, not pull out the mace. Then again if I'm facing walking bones that don't need organs, I may consider that pulverizing them is more likely to work than cutting them without advance knowledge.
ravenspawn 07-09-07, 03:01 PM	I also run an FR campaign. As mentioned in the PH about the skill Knowledge (religion), it can help a PC to know the weaknesses, strengths & abilities of an undead, the higher the roll, the more they know. Thus making a cleric a repository of information on the unliving. But there's no table to help guide us (like they do in the Dragon magazine Ecology series). A wise cleric spreads this knowledge to his adventuring companions and maybe to any commoner whose community is besieged by these abominations. So I wouldn't worry about people knowing blunt weapons are best. They may not be aware though that the walking bones in front of them, are not a skeleton but maybe a morgh, a hecueva or a lich, which may require more than a mere chunk of wood from the barn. Also, there are some non-evil undead out there. Such as the Archlich, Baelnorn and the Curst from the Monsters of Fearun, but they are still animated by negative energy. To help against positive energy, an undead can be warded with spells such as Life Ward & Protection from Positive Energy. To answer your question though, I don't think you could call something an "undead" if it's powered by positive energy. Maybe it's better to think of it as a sentient construct of flesh & bones instead (like a flesh golem). Perhaps that's what Dr. Frankenstein tapped into to create his monster ;)
Aloki 07-09-07, 03:08 PM	Sound like a recent episode of OotS
warwinner 07-09-07, 07:02 PM	undead in faerun are like the bears of our world.Many people know a little about them one way or other.Best to settle what amount and level of knowledge pc's have and about what monsters beforehand Aren't the deathless in book of exalted deeds, postive energy undead ? or atleast that's what i figure
Alac Luin 07-09-07, 07:20 PM	Aren't the deathless in book of exalted deeds, postive energy undead ? or atleast that's what i figure Yes, but the "deathless" type has much opposition from the gaming community. Unfortunately, 3.X has made "undead=negative energy" This has not always been the case. According to Ed Greenwood, the (typically) good undead Baelnorns are not "powered" by negative or positive energy, but by magic, and this is hard to fit in with the current rule set.
Faraer 07-10-07, 07:42 AM	At one point, I believe mummies had ties to Positive Energy but it may have changed and it would some time for me to confirm anything.This was originally just a mistake in the Monster Manual. If there were undeadlike creatures powered by positive energy, they likely wouldn't be evil like most undead, and they likely oughtn't be called undead except by folk who don't know better. Making this step in lieu of talking to your players like fellow human beings would be, I think, cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Alac Luin 07-10-07, 04:20 PM	This was originally just a mistake in the Monster Manual. I do disagree with a large portion of your post, but don't really want to argue, as it seams my personal view of undead tend to be on the unpopular side. But, besides personal opinion do you have any evidence to back up this statement? (Saw it in an old Errata....Game designer X mentioned it in his blog....)
Faraer 07-10-07, 04:49 PM	Gary Gygax posted that the positive-energy mummy was a typo here (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11762&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30). Of course, other sources didn't realize that.
arveiaturace_nartheling 07-10-07, 04:57 PM	huff. so much to say regarding this mess larloch i do belive is not evil or if he is he is lawful evil but he does have a good size lich band that do what he says so thats that most ever one figures that a fencing sword will not hurt the dead so the tear a hunk off wood of the barn and hits it (so if you have 1 common knowedgle you will be good) all so most farmers and larbors are not know for having swords lances but the all have hunks of wood. the whole enegry thing is getting messy so in instead of evil vs good enegry we are going to say evil magic makes undead good or evil
Alac Luin 07-10-07, 05:09 PM	And here I thought this was a case where the designers actually thought about the social/theological effects of a society have on their mythology. Even though I know I've heard the stories of Jell-o falling on the battle mat becoming the gelatin cube (don't know if it is true or not) I have used the mummy/positive energy in certain arguments, and I will most likely do so in the future. I'll try to remember that it was a typo, I'm going to try to save that link.
The_Shaman 07-11-07, 09:12 AM	Positive and negative energy is a bit weird. There are non-evil (curst, among others) and good (archliches, baelnorn, some ghosts) undead typical to the realms, but afaik most are powered by negative energy or some other source. Positive energy undead are not, afaik, canon in the realms.
Alac Luin 07-11-07, 10:52 AM	Here is a post from a thread that has Ed Greenwood's words, which I hinted at earlier... http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11143038&postcount=78 If you read this link and the the other words Gary Gygax from the thread Fraer linked to earlier, you will see Ed and Gary do not compleatly agree on this matter ;).
Khaira 07-11-07, 08:45 PM	Woot! Thanks for all the input, everyone! ... now to respond to everything. Although occasional variant monsters are a good idea, if they want to metagame, no amount of superficial in-game bandages will stop them. Part of the problem, I think, is that many of the players are also DMs, and most of them have fallen into complacency regarding metagame tactics. "What Should I Do?" vs "What Should My Character Do?" For example, the rogue who normally starts every battle with a sneak attack, but decides to, upon encountering an undead, resort to their club. Additionally, I think a positive-energy undead creature would defnitely add some flavor to any game. I may be stretching it, of course... Clerics being bane to undead is common knowledge far as I know. To many tales about clerics driving them away. Not knowing would be like not knowing about the Catholic Church having a Ritual of Exorcism. I'm Catholic. Ahem ... was. That's besides the point...in any case, I never knew that they/we had/have a Ritual of Exorcism. It's not exactly one of the most "out there" rituals, you know. It's definitely not the Last Rites, that everyone will know about. The same with most clerics; with the exceptions of Kelemvorites and Lathandar-clerics, I doubt clerics of other faiths make it their primary business to hunt undead. Such as the Archlich, Baelnorn and the Curst from the Monsters of Fearun, but they are still animated by negative energy. I don't have Monsters of Faerun immediately on hand, so I really can't immediately look and see. Does it actually say that the Archlich, Baelnon, Curst, et al are specifically negative-energy powered? Or is this simply something assumed, that all undead are powered via negative energy?
Alac Luin 07-11-07, 09:07 PM	For example, the rogue who normally starts every battle with a sneak attack, but decides to, upon encountering an undead, resort to their club. Additionally, I think a positive-energy undead creature would defnitely add some flavor to any game. I may be stretching it, of course... The official "positive energy undead" are Deathless. Deathless are immune to crits. The difference is basically who turns/ who rebukes and who can enter a hallow/unhallowed area. Same tactics are used. For what you are looking for something like a disease that makes people look like undead. Yes, this reeks of 28 days later. Or something along the lines of Yellow Musk Zombie would work, they are of the plant type. I don't have Monsters of Faerun immediately on hand, so I really can't immediately look and see. Does it actually say that the Archlich, Baelnon, Curst, et al are specifically negative-energy powered? Or is this simply something assumed, that all undead are powered via negative energy? Unfortunately, 3.X has made it, by the RAW, all undead are powered by negative energy, despite what is said about the undead type in the MM, it came out in other books. This has not always clearly been the case, and does go against what some of those creature's creators envisioned (see my link to Ed Greenwood's reply earlier, he created the Baelnorns as far as I know).
ravenspawn 07-12-07, 12:18 AM	I don't have Monsters of Faerun immediately on hand, so I really can't immediately look and see. Does it actually say that the Archlich, Baelnon, Curst, et al are specifically negative-energy powered? Or is this simply something assumed, that all undead are powered via negative energy? True, it does not say specifically wether or not these particular undead are powered by neg. energy but they seem to imply that they go thru the same process as an evil spellcaster wishing to become undead would. Except for the Curst which is created "when an evil spellcaster touches a victim while casting bestow curse, then within 4 rounds adding a properly worded wish or miracle spell. So i would guess the Curst is also neg. energy besed.
Khaira 07-12-07, 01:08 PM	To properly serve my role as the Devil's Advocate, I went to the MM and looked at the Undead subtype. I found it interesting to note that the Undead aren't specifically stated to be powered by (or solely by) negative energy. It states that: "Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces" I found it intriguing that the undead weren't actually stated to be powered by either positive or negative energies. Granted, the majority of undead are very negative-energy (or negative stigma) oriented, but there have been notable exceptions. I think back to 2nd edition, which had the Spectral Harpists, the Master Harpers who died in service to the Harpers, or the elven ghost in the City of Splendors novel by Greenwood and Cunningham. I don't know that anyone could say that they are necessarily powered by either negative or positive energy, but those two examples, in any case, seem to suggest a tendency to not be powered by negative energies. I do know that Greenwood had said, at one point and time (and probably many other point and times since then) that DMs and player should not play by the rules whenever possible, as it improves gameplay. I imagine he would probably say that whatever you need the undead to be is whatever they are. I wonder, though, if undead, being the "living dead" as it were, are assumed to be powered solely by negative energies, then are the Chosen and other undying mortals powered by an extreme amount of positive energies?
Alac Luin 07-12-07, 01:30 PM	To properly serve my role as the Devil's Advocate, I went to the MM and looked at the Undead subtype. I found it interesting to note that the Undead aren't specifically stated to be powered by (or solely by) negative energy. It states that: "Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces" I found it intriguing that the undead weren't actually stated to be powered by either positive or negative energies. Granted, the majority of undead are very negative-energy (or negative stigma) oriented, but there have been notable exceptions. This is part of my stance. It isn't in the MM. It is more in books like Liber Mortis, BoED, BoVD that make the negative energy/undead case. I can't quote, as I do not own these books. If it's not directly saying so, it is strongly implied by the mention of Deathless are the "living dead" powered by positive energy. For my own games, I completely disregard this connection, and leave both my undead and deathless as powered by "supernatural forces" unless the monster entry specifically states a need for it (as in a special attack).
Slayergnome 07-12-07, 06:49 PM	players "knowing" the bludgeoning weapons are the only mundane weapons that affect undead. You could do some sneaky stuff like change what does the good damage to certain undead. Maybe ghouls and zombies muscles are their weak spots so slashing is best. Its your game change the ways thing work how you like. the undead are invariably evil and it's next to impossible (rather, it is) to have a neutral or good necromancer. There are in Toril examples of good undead. One example is the elf lich's that serve to protect the holy places of their people. Necromancers aren't always evil. Given they are bent towards madness and evil by their close proximity to the Negative plane. But don't sell Necromancers short. In any case, I was wondering how much common knowledge a typical person - or a typical adventurer - would have about undead. A guy walking towards you with open wounds who just ate your neighbor is something to run from. Men who fly around drinking your neighbors blood are bad. Scary things are scary. I would say see how much Knowledge:Religion a person has. That is where you get your information on most Undead. Though it could be argued some information can be learned via Knowledge: Arcane as well. If players are using ooc knowledge to know things they haven't experienced in game make them buy Knowledge:Religion a few ranks next time they level. undead positive energy powered. Likely this would result in them becoming susceptible to sneak attacks, Fortitude saves, and some other things that the typical undead are NOT susceptible to, but also making them nearly immune to turning attempts. Personally I don't care what a undead is powered by I feel they would still be immune to all that jazz you just said. Its the fact they are walking dead and not what powers them that gives them that immunity. They dont have a weak spot etc etc. Also if I made a positive infused Undead I wouldn't make it immune to turning. But I would let it gain energy from Cure Damage spells (which would flip out your meta-gaming players) and take normal damage from Cause damage. Change the little things I would say. My question here: Is an undead infused with positive energy a totally off-the-wall, I'm-crazy-and-need-a-new-hobby thought? Or could it be plausbile? There is so much crazy stupid stuff in 3.5 in the form of templates and the like. Your ideas is very viable and easy to see implemented.
Swiftblade 07-12-07, 09:34 PM	I have to say, I have a veteran gamer in my group that loves to metagame. Just remember, when you have someone fight something don't always let them have everything they need, make them fight something prior that limits their resources to make it a challenge. As far as undead go, if like it sounds you use alot of skeletons, use more zombies, which are weak against slashing weapons. I have punished gamers in the past for metagaming by using it against them. If they think they know all there is to know about something, throw a monkey wrench into things. "A host of skeletons, woot, this is easy, I'll just hoist my warhammer and smash them to bits." Not realizing that a necromance has worked on these skeletons making them immune to blunt weapons, and also given them other protective spells making them almost invincible for CR2 or CR3 creatures. Ask them not to metagame, but it is hard not to, as a player I openly admit that myself, but ask them to try not too, and if it becomes a necessity to quirk things a bit, not fault there, I have a friend who created his own homebrew skeletons. I was the only one with blunt attacks as the Monk in the party, but what made me nervous was 3 rounds after I had dropped the first skeleton it reassembled and stood up to take a swing at me, make them only be destroyed with certain triggers or look into regeneration unless defeated with a specific weapon or source. You have almost limitless control over the monsters in the game. If they want to be metagamers, you can always change your tactics, use creatures that they do not know much about and use those from now on, like Demons and Devils or other large classifications of monsters.