Giving a Cleric of Helm the War Domain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Giving a Cleric of Helm the War Domain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Brenigin
03-14-07, 03:13 AM I have a player that wants to play a cleric of Helm, but wants to drop the Turn Undead class ability. He wants to take the War Domain in its place, in addition to his standard 2 domains.

I think it sounds unbalanced - any better ideas as a swap for Turn Undead? I'm going to encourage him to take a level of fighter to get the feats he'd get from the War domain.
Stigger
03-14-07, 03:20 AM Dunno... depends on how often you toss undead at the party I guess. Personally, I'd tell him too bad and to work towards the Divine Disciple PrC (4th level grants a third domain for a cleric) if he wants it that bad. Other than PrC's though, he's going to have to get to epic levels if he wants a third domain though.
bloodtalon
03-14-07, 08:11 AM to me that is way too strong with out a good reson. have him take the prestige class if he wants a third domain.
Mad Mage
03-14-07, 12:53 PM I'm echoing the general thoughts of bloodtalon & Stigger: TOO POWERFUL.

Brenigin, if either you or your player have access to it, you might want your player to consider a PrC. I don't know if the one bloodtalon's specifying is the Watcher of Helm (from Dragon #284) or not. :thinks:
Tevin Kevlak
03-15-07, 04:57 AM I wouldn't really call it too powerful personally. It's really only going to give him a +1 to hit with a Bastard Sword (plus the ability to wield it without penalties) and some extra options he can take for his domain spell slots (remember no matter how many domains you get you only get 1 domain slot). Turning undead is not an ability to be tossed away so easily, many enctouners can be effectively ended with one successful turning check not to mention there are numerous feats that allow one to get even more out of their turn undead uses. Divine Metamagic comes to mind.

However, I would tell him that if he wants to make this class feature swap he is at least going to have to pick a diety that can grant the War domain. Helm's domains are Law, Planning, Protection, and Strength... so no War domain.
Critalondel
03-15-07, 06:23 AM Extra domains are very powerful -- a third domain is something that isn't generally earned until 10th level or so (mid-levels in the few prestige classes that give them out), from what I remember. I'd tell him to just take a level or two of Fighter, or something, if he's heart-set on being better with a sword (or just take War instead of one of the other Domains he's wanting to take).
Tevin Kevlak
03-15-07, 04:26 PM Yes, some domains are very powerful. Travel comes to mind with the freedom of movement ability, or the death domain with it's death touch ability. The War domain is not really one of those domains, it is only going to make him attack as if he had a MW Bastard Sword. That's a +1 to hit. The only useful spells on the list (that is the only spells that the cleric couldn't already cast) are their level 7, 8, and 9 spells. So it's 3 useful spells once per day (given he decides to even use those for his slots) starting at CL 13 and a +1 to hit with a bastard sword for Turn Undead... it doesn't seem over powered to me.

Also, I'd like to know which PrC's you're referencing because I just took a look at my Complete Divine and the Church Inquisiter gains an extra domain at the first level of the PrC and you can gain that level at character level 4. In fact the only PrC's that I know of that gain an extra domain only after level 10 is the Contemplative (because you need to be level 10 to take the class) and the Radiant Servant of Pelor which gains it at 11th level because you gain the bonus domain halfway through the class.

Examples of considerably lower level domains gained:
Church Inquisiter - Extra Domain CL 4
Divine Oracle - Extra Domain at CL 6
Rainbow Servant - Extra Domain at CL 6 and again at CL 9
The Seeker of The Misty Isle - Extra Domain at CL 6
The Warpriest - Extra Domain at CL 7

There's 5 that gain an extra domain fairly early in their career, at least earlier than 10th level, and that's just from 1 book. Bonus domains are by no means over powered and in my opinion are by no means more powerful than the Turn Undead class ability.
Tevin Kevlak
03-15-07, 04:59 PM Actually if all your character is looking for is a way to use his Dieties favored weapon without taking Exotic Weapon Prof there are the Weapon Group feats/class features presented in Unearthed Arcana. It basically lets you choose a number of weapon groups (such as small blades: daggers short swords etc.) based on what class you are (fighters gain more weapon groups than clerics for example). So your Cleric of Helm player could choose the Large Blade Group and the Exotic Group and be able to fight with his bastard sword as if he had proficiency. If he has his heart set on the Weapon Focus Bastard Sword he can simply take it as his feat at 3rd level. Remember that choosing weapon groups greatly limits what weapons your character will be proficient in.
Stigger
03-15-07, 06:36 PM Don't think it would be overpowered actually... well at low levels it might be a little imbalanced for a few levels, but whatever... I'd be more concerned about giving up something like turning undead that can perma-gimp a character at later levels in exchange for a feat or two, particularly when it will deny access to so many he could have later that have turn undead as a pre-requisite.
Dargoth
03-16-07, 09:28 AM Helm doesnt have the War Domain so hes out of luck if your willing to accomadate him I sugest you create a Heresy for Helm.

Ive created a Helmite heresy for my own campaign. Basicly the church of Helm in Amn has fallen to a heresy that was started by the Cleric of Helm who led Amns invasion of Maztica a decade or so ago. The church of Helm in Amn has a dogma thats kind of similar to logic the AI came up with in the movie I robot. The heretical Hemites believe that the people need a strong guardian whether they want it or not. If the Helms guardians need to kill a few people who refuse to accept Helms guardianship then so be it. The protection of the majority is more important than the lives a minority who refuse to accept the truth

Instead of the Planning domain Heretical clerics who follow the Heresy can take the War Domain. Followers of the Heresy are ussually LE or NE

Now this would allow your player access to the war domain however he'd still only have access to 2 if he wanted to take a third domain then he would have to take Divine Discple PrC
Stigger
03-16-07, 03:46 PM Really interesting thought there Dargoth... might have to lift that idea off you for my own upcoming campaign.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Brenigin 03-14-07, 03:13 AM	I have a player that wants to play a cleric of Helm, but wants to drop the Turn Undead class ability. He wants to take the War Domain in its place, in addition to his standard 2 domains. I think it sounds unbalanced - any better ideas as a swap for Turn Undead? I'm going to encourage him to take a level of fighter to get the feats he'd get from the War domain.
Stigger 03-14-07, 03:20 AM	Dunno... depends on how often you toss undead at the party I guess. Personally, I'd tell him too bad and to work towards the Divine Disciple PrC (4th level grants a third domain for a cleric) if he wants it that bad. Other than PrC's though, he's going to have to get to epic levels if he wants a third domain though.
bloodtalon 03-14-07, 08:11 AM	to me that is way too strong with out a good reson. have him take the prestige class if he wants a third domain.
Mad Mage 03-14-07, 12:53 PM	I'm echoing the general thoughts of bloodtalon & Stigger: TOO POWERFUL. Brenigin, if either you or your player have access to it, you might want your player to consider a PrC. I don't know if the one bloodtalon's specifying is the Watcher of Helm (from Dragon #284) or not. :thinks:
Tevin Kevlak 03-15-07, 04:57 AM	I wouldn't really call it too powerful personally. It's really only going to give him a +1 to hit with a Bastard Sword (plus the ability to wield it without penalties) and some extra options he can take for his domain spell slots (remember no matter how many domains you get you only get 1 domain slot). Turning undead is not an ability to be tossed away so easily, many enctouners can be effectively ended with one successful turning check not to mention there are numerous feats that allow one to get even more out of their turn undead uses. Divine Metamagic comes to mind. However, I would tell him that if he wants to make this class feature swap he is at least going to have to pick a diety that can grant the War domain. Helm's domains are Law, Planning, Protection, and Strength... so no War domain.
Critalondel 03-15-07, 06:23 AM	Extra domains are very powerful -- a third domain is something that isn't generally earned until 10th level or so (mid-levels in the few prestige classes that give them out), from what I remember. I'd tell him to just take a level or two of Fighter, or something, if he's heart-set on being better with a sword (or just take War instead of one of the other Domains he's wanting to take).
Tevin Kevlak 03-15-07, 04:26 PM	Yes, some domains are very powerful. Travel comes to mind with the freedom of movement ability, or the death domain with it's death touch ability. The War domain is not really one of those domains, it is only going to make him attack as if he had a MW Bastard Sword. That's a +1 to hit. The only useful spells on the list (that is the only spells that the cleric couldn't already cast) are their level 7, 8, and 9 spells. So it's 3 useful spells once per day (given he decides to even use those for his slots) starting at CL 13 and a +1 to hit with a bastard sword for Turn Undead... it doesn't seem over powered to me. Also, I'd like to know which PrC's you're referencing because I just took a look at my Complete Divine and the Church Inquisiter gains an extra domain at the first level of the PrC and you can gain that level at character level 4. In fact the only PrC's that I know of that gain an extra domain only after level 10 is the Contemplative (because you need to be level 10 to take the class) and the Radiant Servant of Pelor which gains it at 11th level because you gain the bonus domain halfway through the class. Examples of considerably lower level domains gained: Church Inquisiter - Extra Domain CL 4 Divine Oracle - Extra Domain at CL 6 Rainbow Servant - Extra Domain at CL 6 and again at CL 9 The Seeker of The Misty Isle - Extra Domain at CL 6 The Warpriest - Extra Domain at CL 7 There's 5 that gain an extra domain fairly early in their career, at least earlier than 10th level, and that's just from 1 book. Bonus domains are by no means over powered and in my opinion are by no means more powerful than the Turn Undead class ability.
Tevin Kevlak 03-15-07, 04:59 PM	Actually if all your character is looking for is a way to use his Dieties favored weapon without taking Exotic Weapon Prof there are the Weapon Group feats/class features presented in Unearthed Arcana. It basically lets you choose a number of weapon groups (such as small blades: daggers short swords etc.) based on what class you are (fighters gain more weapon groups than clerics for example). So your Cleric of Helm player could choose the Large Blade Group and the Exotic Group and be able to fight with his bastard sword as if he had proficiency. If he has his heart set on the Weapon Focus Bastard Sword he can simply take it as his feat at 3rd level. Remember that choosing weapon groups greatly limits what weapons your character will be proficient in.
Stigger 03-15-07, 06:36 PM	Don't think it would be overpowered actually... well at low levels it might be a little imbalanced for a few levels, but whatever... I'd be more concerned about giving up something like turning undead that can perma-gimp a character at later levels in exchange for a feat or two, particularly when it will deny access to so many he could have later that have turn undead as a pre-requisite.
Dargoth 03-16-07, 09:28 AM	Helm doesnt have the War Domain so hes out of luck if your willing to accomadate him I sugest you create a Heresy for Helm. Ive created a Helmite heresy for my own campaign. Basicly the church of Helm in Amn has fallen to a heresy that was started by the Cleric of Helm who led Amns invasion of Maztica a decade or so ago. The church of Helm in Amn has a dogma thats kind of similar to logic the AI came up with in the movie I robot. The heretical Hemites believe that the people need a strong guardian whether they want it or not. If the Helms guardians need to kill a few people who refuse to accept Helms guardianship then so be it. The protection of the majority is more important than the lives a minority who refuse to accept the truth Instead of the Planning domain Heretical clerics who follow the Heresy can take the War Domain. Followers of the Heresy are ussually LE or NE Now this would allow your player access to the war domain however he'd still only have access to 2 if he wanted to take a third domain then he would have to take Divine Discple PrC
Stigger 03-16-07, 03:46 PM	Really interesting thought there Dargoth... might have to lift that idea off you for my own upcoming campaign.