Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Narsil 08-09-07, 07:11 PM	Rightio, I've got a character that I need help with. A Drow/Elf hybrid (uses the stats of the drow and the cosmetics of a hybrid, to avoid any argument between anyone) who has been given the role of party wizard. I've made him a generalist, and I've taken the first of the elven substitution levels from Races of the Wild. The goal with him in this campaign is to take him to about level 30... I just need to give him a decent prestige class (due to all wizards desperately needing one, as always) and a decent build. Following starting stats; Str: 9 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 20 Wis: 13 Cha: 12 What I do not want; -Incantatrix -Mage of the Arcane Order A tiny bit of backstory; I've got him as a chaotic good drow who... couldn't really care less about Lolth's minions. As far as he's concerned, the only drow of any consequence was his father, and he doesn't know his father. Treat him, primarily, as an elf and not a drow. I'd basically like for something that fits the flavour of his character, and probably something that at least includes Daylight Adaptation.
Dielzen 08-09-07, 10:02 PM	Well, to the best of my knowledge there's zero PrCs that advance spellcasting that grant Daylight Adaption or have it as a pre-requisite. You've given next to no information to go on in regards to providing assistance other than he's an elf. In terms of FR-specific Elf-required PrCs -- Everskan Tomb Guardian Elven High Mage (epic level PrC) Master of the Yuirwood Olin Gsir Spellsinger There's more, check my sig for all the FR-specific PrCs to date, the 5 I just listed will grant you full arcane spellcasting progression, some are just harder to meet entry than others.
SirUrza 08-09-07, 10:33 PM	Was there a question in there? :) You don't want 2 prestige classes ok.. so what do you want besides level 30? :) Generalist is very nice, specialist features without the school restriction. I'll assume for a moment you want to STAY wizard and don't want to multiclass. Does he worship Lolth or a god? Cause if he doesn't then he's out the Arcane Devotee option and being Chaotic Good means Shadow Adept is out of the question. Both are prestige classes I like, since both agument Archmage nicely. They're also nice low level prestige classes. So with that in mind, I suggest Wild Mage and follow it up with Archmage when you qualify for it. If you some how get killed and brought back to life, you could go with Blood Magus, there are some neat abilities there, but seems like Wild Mage would be an interesting way to go. Always wanted to try a Wild Mage Arcane Devotee to be honest. The choatic nature of a Wild Mage would work well if he's a spider kisser though, if he's not, the the Wild Mage is a very ironic option for him regardless. :) Unfortunately A LOT of the arcane prestige classes revolve around multiclassed characters or being a Wizard for 10 levels.
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 12:25 AM	Well first off... for maybe the 50'th time this month, you cannot have a hybrid surface elf/drow combo. Never, ever unless you wish to play in a different setting. Whenever a drow and a surface elf have children, that child ends up either surface elf or drow. There is no half-half elven combo. If a moon elf and a drow had child, that child would be either a moon elf or a drow. Period, end of story.
Narsil 08-10-07, 04:17 AM	If a moon elf and a drow had child, that child would be either a moon elf or a drow. Period, end of story. Aren't you the rules lawyer? Either way, lad, pay attention; A Drow/Elf hybrid (uses the stats of the drow and the cosmetics of a hybrid, to avoid any argument between anyone) who has been given the role of party wizard. And also read page 297 of the FRCS. He counts as a drow, but has the bloody cosmetics of a hybrid, and I want to play Forgotten Realms, not Eberron or Greyhawk. Our house-rules permit it, and you're being very irritating about it. As for the rest; he was raised by his Mystra worshipping (moon elf) mother, if it helps, and has an appropriate reaction towards Shadow Adept. His alignment may be Chaotic but this is due to practically all elves being at least somewhat Chaotic, and I'm straying away from the Blood Magus Prestige Class due to a reduced caster level. Arcane Devotee of Mystra and Olin Gisir both look good, as does Elven High Mage for his higher levels (I don't think it'd be permitted, though, due to natural elven racism against drow), but Shadow Adept is out of the question for what I had in mind. Chaotic Good worshipper of Mystra and Sehanine Moonbow. Archmage is a no-brainer for any wizard, in my opinion. I did like the Magical Trickster as seen in Complete Scoundrel, though, and it doesn't seem to give me too much of a hit to my caster levels.
Narsil 08-10-07, 09:07 AM	Well, here's one of my first planned builds; CG male drow (by rules, mostly) Wizard 7/Ruathar 3/Olin Gisir 10/Archmage 5
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 09:09 AM	Next thing you know you'll give him a moonblade, and make him Queen Amlaruil's distant nephew with access to an Elf Gate. Cosmetics, smetics!! House rules are fine and dandy, and we all use them. D&D is a game to mold however you feel, but drow/surface elf hybrid is something that is just plain silly. Drow stats and surface elf cosmetics?? Whatever man, it's your game. Play well.:rolleyes:
Narsil 08-10-07, 09:19 AM	Next thing you know you'll give him a moonblade, and make him Queen Amlaruil's distant nephew with access to an Elf Gate. Actually, there was no Lyvanavel moonblade to speak of (not that a wizard would be the best person to use such a weapon), and there's no relation to the elfqueen as far as I've planned for the character. Why do people make this sort of silly judgement on a character the first single moment someone makes a mention of 'hybrid'? Cosmetics, smetics!! House rules are fine and dandy, and we all use them. D&D is a game to mold however you feel, but drow/surface elf hybrid is something that is just plain silly. Why? Why is it so silly that two people of the same species but a different subsection can breed? Hell, a much, much, much sillier idea by your logic is the half-elf. Yet we all accept them well enough despite the gulf between humans and elves being much bigger than drow and elves. I don't see any real logical reason why drow and elves cannot produce any sort of offspring that at least looks like a hybrid. Drow stats and surface elf cosmetics?? Basically; he looks like a drow crossed with a moon elf. Why, pray tell, does that bother you? Taller than a drow, slim as either parent, dark blue-grey skinned and white haired yet with the blue-gold eyes of a moon elf. The only different rules-wise to a drow is that he gains elven weapon proficiencies, and elven and common as automatic languages instead of elven and undercommon. He can't actually speak undercommon, on that note...
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 10:00 AM	Next thing you know you'll give him a moonblade, and make him Queen Amlaruil's distant nephew with access to an Elf Gate. That's just an insult, if you want to have an adult conversation then keep your little insults to yourself. Also, it might help if you actually read the posts, he doesn't have surface elven cosmetics, he has HYBRID cosmetics. In other words, no, he isn't trying to be a drow without the societal penalties.
jamesnero 08-10-07, 10:13 AM	Id look at the elf sub levels for wizard in races of the wild. If your DM allows it the first one is gold it really is. I must admit there are very few PrCs out there better for a wizard than incantrix its really to good to say no to. elf wizard 5/incantrix 10/ archamge 5 This one is a classic build but its solid too off topic I've been around the boards for abit and I've seen a couple of people with allegiance to Karsus in their sig. Are we talking about karsus the mad the wizard who punked out mystra??? If so where can I sign up?
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 10:22 AM	off topic I've been around the boards for abit and I've seen a couple of people with allegiance to Karsus in their sig. Are we talking about karsus the mad the wizard who punked out mystra??? If so where can I sign up? Yep, that's the Karsus in question, two parts of his soul inhabit these boards as "Lord Karsus" and "Karsus the Mad". Good fragments of souls to have around, and they created the "Hands of Karsus" (cause, you know, they're lacking in the hands department ;)) and they invite various miscreants to join. If you stick around for a bit and post pretty often then in a while they might invite you in. :)
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 10:32 AM	In the Realms if a Drow and a Moon elf, sun elf, copper elf or wild elf have child together, that said child will look like either a Drow a moon elf, or sun elf or copper elf or wild elf. There is no mixing their looks. Dark blue-grey skin? White hair with blue gold eyes? I've been playing since 1ED... over 20 years and not one person in all the vast campaigns I've played in would accept such a thing in cannon FR. And to the other poster... There IS NO hybrid elf/elf in FR. If a Gold elf and a Copper elf mate, then the child is either Copper elf or Gold elf. No gold elf skin with copper elf highlights. That is cannon FR material. You can read this in several FR accessory books as well as a few novels. Now, if you'd like to play a non cannon game, then it's your right to do so as I've stated before, D&D is your world to create. You could NOT take this particular hybrid of yours to a FR game convention and expect anyone to allow your PC to join their campaign.
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 10:35 AM	Also, it might help if you actually read the posts, he doesn't have surface elven cosmetics, he has HYBRID cosmetics. And again... There are NO hybrid cosmetics in FR cannon!!!
Dielzen 08-10-07, 10:39 AM	I think everyone understands that GEV. I dare say that only 2% of people (if that many) use the entire Realms Canon in their games. It's a game, if what they do makes it more fun/interesting/appealing don't begrudge them that.
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 10:42 AM	Is that so? Well thanks for the enlightenment! :rolleyes:
Narsil 08-10-07, 10:51 AM	And again... There are NO hybrid cosmetics in FR cannon!!! Except for Zhai, who's semi-canon via the novels and games. And naturally the very precarious statement on page 297 of the Campaign Setting; (Bolded emphasis mine) The campaign setting is packed with details about Faerun and the world of Toril, but the book provides only a broad sampling of the people, places and things the world contains. The real details are left up to you. Make additions as you see fit. For example, if you need a village, a small town, or a dungeon in some locale to make an adventure work out right, go right ahead and add it. Likewise the details in this book reflect what the people of Faerun know about their world - but only you know the truth. So if your players read this book and try to dictate details of the world for you ("No, the river runs through Silverymoon!"), stand firm. It's your world. Don't be a slave to the map or this book, and don't be afraid to alter anything you want to. As for the incantatrix, I'm awfully tempted but I've designed the character as a staunch generalist and thus it goes OOC if he gives up the spell school. Another approach (and a pretty powerful one) is perhaps this; Wizard 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 5
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 10:51 AM	And again... There are NO hybrid cosmetics in FR cannon!!! And again, he was asking about an elven wizard build, not your critique on how to play canon (cannons go boom, canon means "by the book") Realms. But, you are correct, there are no hybrids in FR canon, good job for finding the noncanon aspect of his character. There was ABSOLUTELY no reason to be a jerk about it. Further, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to belabor the point. I wouldn't accept such a thing in a game where I as adhering to canon either, however, if it makes a good story then I generally accept what my players would like to play, so long as they do the leg work to justify the situation (ie. write a good background).
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 10:57 AM	Except for Zhai, who's semi-canon via the novels and games. Zhai is about as "cannon" as a +3 Shocking Burst Cheeseburger. Zhai is not a good example to go by my friend.
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 10:59 AM	Zhai is about as cannon as a +3 Shocking Burst Cheeseburger. Zhai is not a good example to go by my friend. If your going to be condescending then at least use the correct word, it's canon. Nice edit.
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 11:04 AM	But, you are correct, there are no hybrids in FR canon, good job for finding the noncanon aspect of his character. There was ABSOLUTELY no reason to be a jerk about it. Who was being a jerk? Whoever they are, they're gonna pay for it. Seriously, I'm just being blunt, forward and to the point. Did you somehow hear the tone of my voice as you read my words to decipher wheather or not I'm being a jerk? C'mon, let's play nice now, shall we?
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 11:07 AM	If your going to be condescending then at least use the correct word, it's canon. Nice edit. What if I used Chanun with a silent H? :rolleyes: Or perhaps Kanan would please you better?
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 11:09 AM	Who was being a jerk? Whoever they are, they're gonna pay for it. Seriously, I'm just being blunt, forward and to the point. Did you somehow hear the tone of my voice as you read my words to decipher wheather or not I'm being a jerk? C'mon, let's play nice now, shall we? You have been writing in a very condescending manner, the OP has read it that way, I've read it that way and I'm quite sure that others would as well (you know, the eye roll was a bit of a clue to the condescending nature of your comments). And no, you're not being "to the point", that'd be a statement along the lines of; "There's no canon support for a moon elf/drow elf hybrid, in canon they are one or the other." Not; Next thing you know you'll give him a moonblade, and make him Queen Amlaruil's distant nephew with access to an Elf Gate. Cosmetics, smetics!! House rules are fine and dandy, and we all use them. D&D is a game to mold however you feel, but drow/surface elf hybrid is something that is just plain silly. Drow stats and surface elf cosmetics?? Whatever man, it's your game. Play well. Your first post was blunt and to the point, your further posts have been condescending to the point of insulting.
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 11:16 AM	Sorry you feel that way my friend. I was encouraging him/her to play the game as he felt was good, but that it wouldn't pass in cannon FR. Saying I'm being rude is an opinion of yours and possibly others, but let us not forget that what is acceptable in some cultures is Taboo in another. Now, shall we not hijack this thread any longer?
Narsil 08-10-07, 11:22 AM	C'mon, let's play nice now, shall we? And the Green Elven Vampire wins the irony award... ah well. Here's a proposed progression below: (Swap familiar for bonus feat and also having the noncombatant flaw, * = bonus feat of any sort) Wiz 1; Iron Will,* Spellcasting Prodigy (Int), Extend Spell* Wiz 2: Wiz 3: Spell Focus (Abjuration) Wiz 4: (Int improved to 21) Wiz 5: Empower Spell* Wiz 6: Daylight Adaptation (fits with the character) Wiz 7: Wiz 8: (Int improved to 22) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 1: Craft Wondrous Item (Ancient Artifice secret), Craft Wand Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 2: (Signs and Portents) Wis 8/Olin Gisir 3: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 4: Quicken Spell, Chain Spell (Forgotten Spell Lore secret), (Int improved to 23) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5: (add dispel evil to spell list) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 1: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 2: Spell Focus (Transmutation) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 3: (Int improved to 24) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 4: Wis 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 5: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 6: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7: (Int improved to 25) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 1: Improved Spell Capacity (10th), (Arcane Reach 30') Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 2: (Mastery of Shaping) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 3: (Mastery of Elements) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 4: (Arcane Reach 60'), Automatic Quicken Spell (1-3), (Int improved to 26) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5: (Spell Power +1) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 1: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 2: (Fiend Warding), Automatic Quicken Spell (4-6) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 3: (Holy word added to spell list) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 4: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 5: (Lore of inner strength), Improved Metamagic
Narsil 08-10-07, 11:34 AM	Your first post was blunt and to the point, your further posts have been condescending to the point of insulting. I myself know of this canon point, but me and my fellow gamers tend to kind of sort of ignore it completely because we don't feel it makes any sense in the long run, which is why page 297's disclaimer is so damn useful. As for the character's backstory, he's a drow/elf hybrid (should be followed by a thunderbolt from GEV's reaction), who was raised by his mother and gained absolutely no cultural influence from his drow half of things. And quite a significant part of the planned campaign will involve him encountering his biological father - who just so happens to be a neutral evil bastard hoping to take revenge against his own drow house. The character himself is a Mystra worshipper and obsessed more with arcane lore and hedonism than proving himself to be a good and noble person. He feels that it's self-evident and he's a bit of an arrogant twit, at that... this is mainly due to being an elven wizard because most elves are stuck-up arrogant twits and most wizards are stuck-up arrogant twits. Aside from that, he's quite willing to adventure for the greater good, he'll just never let anyone forget that he's adventuring for the greater good. Unless something serious and grave happens, in which - through all of his damn arrogance and stuck-up nature - he's definitely the good guy and tends to get all high, mighty and moralistic.
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 11:43 AM	*Sigh* Have fun, good gaming.
ShadezofDis 08-10-07, 11:46 AM	As for the character's backstory, he's a drow/elf hybrid (should be followed by a thunderbolt from GEV's reaction), who was raised by his mother and gained absolutely no cultural influence from his drow half of things... Not too shabby. I was more interested in the story of his mother and father though, and also about how the elven community his mother was a part of interacted with the mother and the child. :) That would be my major sticking point as a DM. Otherwise, good stuff. Now, shall we not hijack this thread any longer? Great plan, I agree fully. :)
Narsil 08-10-07, 01:28 PM	Not too shabby. I was more interested in the story of his mother and father though, and also about how the elven community his mother was a part of interacted with the mother and the child. :) That would be my major sticking point as a DM. Well, mother and father to cut it short; Mother and father are both mages of some significant power. Mother was an Olin Gisir who - upon discovering a useful spell - managed to disguise herself as a drow and visit the Underdark for the sole purpose of pilfering quite a bit of lore. She ended up getting drunk or intoxicated by some goings on, and wound up in bed with the father; upon realising the mistake - and waking up naked and looking quite a lot like a moon elf the following morning in the bed of a drow - she buggered off via a quick teleport spell. The father - being a travelling adventurer mage of great power (though one who'd be more likely found in the infamous BoVD or our ever-favourite Heroes of Horror) - noticed her moon elf nature and decided not to mention it ever again and decided to pretend it never happened in the first place as not to embarass himself. He did, however, keep some scrying-based tabs on her at first, noticed her carrying child and then decided to leave that as it was until the child would become useful. As for the child's association with the elven community, the mother actually made a very vast attempt to avoid the majority of elven community and eventually sought out the worshippers of Eilistraee. He was raised with elven and arcane lore in mind, accepted for what he was the eyes of Eilistraee's clergy, and eventually became accepted in some of the local elven villages due to proving himself via action. Baby-steps, naturally, but it was doable enough for him to qualify to become an Olin Gisir. His bloodline causes trouble while travelling, but we're going to try and get as much comedy out of his excuses for being a drow as possible. Because Dungeons & Dragons is about fun at the end of the day.
GothicDan 08-10-07, 02:35 PM	Zhai is not canon. But as one of the elected Elven Masters of these boards, I have no problem (theoretically) with a 'hybrid' Elf that uses one Elf's stats and has mixed features of another. Phenotype versus genotype, people (if one wants to use biology to describe it). And I'm pretty sure one of the designers (or semi-designers) has commented on this sounding plausible.
Narsil 08-10-07, 04:39 PM	I made a few mistakes with the original build; here's the upgrade. Wiz 1; Iron Will,* Spellcasting Prodigy (Int), Extend Spell* Wiz 2: Wiz 3: Spell Focus (Abjuration) Wiz 4: (Int improved to 21) Wiz 5: Empower Spell* Wiz 6: Daylight Adaptation (fits with the character) Wiz 7: Wiz 8: (Int improved to 22) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 1: Craft Wondrous Item (Ancient Artifice secret), Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 2: (Signs and Portents) Wis 8/Olin Gisir 3: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 4: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Chain Spell (Forgotten Spell Lore secret), (Int improved to 23) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5: (add dispel evil to spell list) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 1: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 2: Spell Focus (Transmutation) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 3: (Int improved to 24) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 4: Wis 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 5: Quicken Spell Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 6: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7: (Int improved to 25) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 1: Improved Spell Capacity (10th), (Arcane Reach 30') Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 2: (Mastery of Shaping) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 3: (Mastery of Elements) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 4: (Arcane Reach 60'), Automatic Quicken Spell (1-3), (Int improved to 26) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5: (Spell Power +1) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 1: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 2: (Fiend Warding), Automatic Quicken Spell (4-6), Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 3: (Holy word added to spell list), (Int improved to 28) Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 4: Wiz 8/Olin Gisir 5/Initiate 7/Archmage 5/Olin Gisir 5: (Lore of inner strength), Improved Metamagic
danielmayer 09-08-07, 11:26 AM	Hi, Narsil, yep, sounds ok for me. I first wanted to critisize the "quicken spell" in 12th lvl, but you corrected that by yourself ;) I personally think the Olin Gesir as boring class. Not because of its features, but because I think it's a job of sitting in front of a door and... wait... :P Perhaps the standard Loremaster would suit better, but that's your choice. Aside from possible age-adjustments, the INT should be 27 three lines from bottom. For an Olin Gesir, wisdom improvements should be considered instead of constant INT improvements. Considering the powerful enemies he faced/ has to face, perhaps instead of automatic quicken he should have improved spell capacity (for your metamagic) or even epic spellcasting for some punching spells against high spell resistance. But most of your PC will be defined by items, I think. Being 30th-lvl, he'll have some of them boosting his personal danger class (pdc) most likely. Greetings!