Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sosthenes 08-31-07, 10:20 AM	Note: The foundation of this discussion is based on some stuff revealed in part 2 of the Lady Penitant trilogy "Storm of the Dead". Therefore, let's start with a spoiler: I'm not that versed in the ancient history of the drow, as the sources I have don't go deeply in there, and 3E sources just have a few paragraphs about the Crown Wars, nothing more. So I was rather surprised, when the Storm of the Dead book basically said that there are two kinds of drow. The bad Illithyri, tainted by a demon, and the un-tainted Miyeritari. The first need to be redeemed to dance around naked with swords, the latter not so much. The black-and-white view of the Drow always rubbed me the wrong way. Ms. Smedman actually had a better approach than other writers to them and now this. This also suspiciously sounds like a retcon to justify the increasing numbers of "good" drow. And don't get me started about the Demon Taint - Original Sin thingee. So I'd like to hear your thoughts about this. I'm not exactly a Drow fan boy, but as I'm currently running a campaign mostly consisting of them (in my own continuity where Lloth friggin' stayed dead), I'm reading a bit more about them. And sometimes, the morality of things really is rather infantile... Note: Is this spoiler-worthy? This doesn't exactly reveal the plot, so we could continue normally...
Xaean 08-31-07, 09:15 PM	I haven't read Storm of the Dead yet, but this sounds like a very weird - and unnecessary - explanation for good drow. I think that the evil of most drow is part of their culture, but not an inherent racial trait - why do we need elaborate explanations for the occasional good member of an "evil race" - and I assure you that I frankly hate that term - but none for evil members of "good races" - nobody complains about evil surface elves, dwarves or gnomes, they just happen to be, but how can a drow ever be good? Or even an orc or goblin? I strongly dislike the idea of an inherent aligment for living creatures native to the material plane - a drow should be no more inherently evil than a human from Zhentil Keep. Outsiders are a different matter, as they are manifestations of the various alignments, but mortals should have free will.
Sosthenes 09-01-07, 08:12 AM	To be fair, redepmtion is possible even for the "evil" sub-race. But that one requires redemption and the other one doesn't seems a little strange -- and not really represented by existing literature. But it's not completely out of place for the Realms. How often does one read about the "goodly races" or somesuch? Compared to Greyhawk, the duality of good and evil has always been rather strong in this setting. Salvatare himself was rather adamant about the evil nature of Drow...
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 03:13 PM	-You need to brush up on your Elven history, then, because it's always been like that. ;) -Wendoni (sp?) working on behalf of Lolth, seduced and corrupted the Dark Elves of Illythiir. The Dark Elves of Miyeritaar were never seduced by the Balor, and the worship of Lolth never "caught on" there.
Sosthenes 09-04-07, 05:45 PM	Like I said in the initial spoiler, I'm not very familiar with the Crown Wars. I'll brush up on my reading. Nevertheless, that this comes up all of a sudden still seems a bit contrived. First of all, after all the time, pure bloodlines seem rather unlikely, considering that the drow don't seem to think in terms of ancient tribes anymore. Will Matron Mothers consult the lineage of their new patron before they conceive children? Also, the fact that some of your people are deceived by a demon will spoil all of your race forever seems quite, well, racist...
Lord Karsus 09-04-07, 08:12 PM	First of all, after all the time, pure bloodlines seem rather unlikely, considering that the drow don't seem to think in terms of ancient tribes anymore. Will Matron Mothers consult the lineage of their new patron before they conceive children? -I also felt that part was a bit unrealistic, and a little silly. Also, the fact that some of your people are deceived by a demon will spoil all of your race forever seems quite, well, racist... -Not really, when you think about it- especially given the context of the times, and what the Dark Elves were like. The Dark Elves were militaristic and agressive to begin with. They craved power. Even before the coming of Lolth, they often scuffled with other contemporary Elven kingdoms. For example, the Dark Elven city-state of Atornash regularly raided caravans from their northern neighbors. Once the first few Crown Wars started, the Dark Elves were already cast in a negative light. Lolth began her meddling, and was able to "net" those who were in power in Illythiir. Once the Descent begins, all Dark Elves suddenly find themselves in the Underdark, banished by their kin. The innocent and the guilty. Suddenly, Lolth is a savior, the only one who understands how the Dark Elves/Drow were slighted, and the only one who can help them survive in the Underdark. The indoctrination begins, and continues for tens of thousands of years...
Sosthenes 09-05-07, 06:19 AM	I don't have a problem with the fall/descent of the dark elves, it's just the "taint" portion that rubs me the wrong way. Wendonai corrupts a few of the Illythiri, maybe even a major portion. Now they bear the demon taint. No problem. Their descendents carry the demons taint? No problem, either. But even all the people who didn't personally interact with the demon and/or pledge support? That seems a bit over the top. Cursing a whole race is more in the realm of the gods themselves, I always pictured the "relationships" of demons a bit more personal.
Lord Karsus 09-05-07, 09:14 AM	I don't have a problem with the fall/descent of the dark elves, it's just the "taint" portion that rubs me the wrong way. Wendonai corrupts a few of the Illythiri, maybe even a major portion. Now they bear the demon taint. No problem. Their descendents carry the demons taint? No problem, either. But even all the people who didn't personally interact with the demon and/or pledge support? That seems a bit over the top. Cursing a whole race is more in the realm of the gods themselves, I always pictured the "relationships" of demons a bit more personal. -As was demonstarted in Aryvandaar, you don't need your entire population to become "corrupted". You only need those who are in charge to become "corrupted". Everyone else, for the most part, follows.
Sosthenes 09-05-07, 11:42 AM	Like I said above, no problem with that. They followed, things happened. The history is full of that. But getting a stain on your soul and the souls of your descendants for all eternity by following the actual corrupted? A bit powerful for a demon. The philosophy/theology is what bothers me, not the historical bits.
GothicDan 09-05-07, 01:26 PM	I agree that this seems a bit 'big' for a demon lord in the Realms, when there were deities actively involved in the lives of the various subraces.
DarkSongKnight 09-05-07, 01:43 PM	I have a theory. Eilistraee's faith was active before the Descent, but collapsed when it occurred. Maybe she "marked" her faithful somehow when the Descent occurred, so that she could reclaim them in future generations when her faith once again flourished. "Redeeming" their descendants or some such. This would make a lot more sense than "bloodline" purity. Perhaps spiritual purity? Not all of the dark elves worshiped Lolth then, and not all of them do now... Take into account that she "foresaw a time when the dark elves would need a beacon of good within their reach." She also went willingly into exile, perhaps in honor of the "untainted" dark elves that got caught up in the High Magic ritual.
Sosthenes 09-05-07, 02:05 PM	That theory doesn't seem to match with the story provided. It's stated pretty clearly, that the whole Miyeritari aren't tainted and the only mark worked just the other way 'round. Still, maybe Eilistraee somehow arranged that the right Drow found each other, alleles arranged themselves the right way and the highly unlikely "rebirth" of some genetically pure equivalent to the Miyeritari of ancient times are just coming up. Or maybe the writers/designers just want good drow on a massive scale...
MarkHall 09-06-07, 12:59 AM	Are we basically arguing that drow suffer from Original Sin? And that some of them have been redeemed by Elistraee, their savior from evil?
SmartPaladin 09-06-07, 01:03 AM	Are we basically arguing that drow suffer from Original Sin? I donno, did they poke a badger with a spoon? I blame Eddie Izzard for that joke. :P
Meldread 09-06-07, 02:38 AM	Are we basically arguing that drow suffer from Original Sin? And that some of them have been redeemed by Elistraee, their savior from evil? As far as I can understand.... Yes.
DarkSongKnight 09-06-07, 03:29 AM	No, I wasn't talking about Original Sin... Thats a can of worms I don't care to open. ;) Heres what we know. 1.) Eilistraee's faith was strong in Miyeritar before the Dark Disaster. From this, we can assume that some of the dark elves of Miyeritar worshiped Eilistraee. 2.) The Ilythiiri were the southern dark elves, and were the ones who initiated attacks against their neighbors in supposed response to Aryvandaar's aggression against Miyeritar. It was around this time that the Dark Seldarine began to seduce the ruling families and powers in Ilythiir toward evil. From the above, we can assume that there were both those dark elves who embraced evil, and those that did not. 3.) Miyeritar is destroyed in the Dark Disaster. In response, the Ilythiiri began to openly worship evil gods and commit such acts of atrocities that all the remaining elven kingdoms decided to expel the Ilythiiri dark elves from Corellon Larethian's grace. 4.)Powerful mages and clerics succeeded in completing a ritual that was supposed to alter the Ilythiiri dark elves so that their bodies matched the corruption of their souls. It had the adverse effect of affecting all dark elves, not just the intended Ilythiiri. Theres more information on the Crown Wars here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Wars). More information can be found on Eilistraee and her faith in Miyeritar here (http://trismegist.nm.ru/de_eilistraee_eng.html). Heres something of interest. "Major Centers of Worship: Before the elven Crown Wars, Eilistraee's faith was strong in Miyeritar, and she had small numbers of faithful in Ilythiir and the other elven realms of the time. The Dark Disaster, unleashed during the Third Crown War, transformed Miyeritar into the blasted wasteland now known as the High Moor and dealt a devastating blow to the ranks of the Dark Maiden's followers. When the Ilythiiri were transformed into the drow and banished from the sunlit lands at the end of the Fourth Crown War some five hundred years later, Eilistraee's church effectively collapsed and was not reformed for millennia." With this information, it would only make sense that the Miyeritari dark elves would have been "innocent" or "untainted" at that time. Once the descent occurred, some of those may have turned to evil. Others may have retained their faith in Eilistraee. Its hard to say, really. But maybe now my last post and theory make more sense? XD
Sosthenes 09-06-07, 08:24 AM	With this information, it would only make sense that the Miyeritari dark elves would have been "innocent" or "untainted" at that time. Once the descent occurred, some of those may have turned to evil. Others may have retained their faith in Eilistraee. Its hard to say, really. But maybe now my last post and theory make more sense? XD The _race_ might have been untainted, but only _individuals_ could have been innocent. Also, there's not a source I know of that tells us of "good" drow in the underdark, the general story is that even those who might have been banished unjustified were corrupted by Lloth in the millennia since. Also, the Storm of the Dead novel explicitly says that the (definitely Lloth-worshipping) House Melarn is of pure Miyeritar blood and thus by definititon untainted and doesn't have to be "redeemed". This is stated by both Wendonai and the Kiira spirits. Any theory explaining this would have to take Halisstra and her brother into accountl.
Zanan 09-06-07, 11:01 AM	One may keep in mind that the corruption / tainting story comes from the lips of Wendonai and whether he actually tells the "truth", i.e. "canon truth" - him being (make that: having been) a fiend of corruption - is up for debate.
Sir Aurik 09-06-07, 11:16 AM	Note: The foundation of this discussion is based on some stuff revealed in part 2 of the Lady Penitant trilogy "Storm of the Dead". Therefore, let's start with a spoiler: I'm not that versed in the ancient history of the drow, as the sources I have don't go deeply in there, and 3E sources just have a few paragraphs about the Crown Wars, nothing more. So I was rather surprised, when the Storm of the Dead book basically said that there are two kinds of drow. The bad Illithyri, tainted by a demon, and the un-tainted Miyeritari. The first need to be redeemed to dance around naked with swords, the latter not so much. The black-and-white view of the Drow always rubbed me the wrong way. Ms. Smedman actually had a better approach than other writers to them and now this. This also suspiciously sounds like a retcon to justify the increasing numbers of "good" drow. And don't get me started about the Demon Taint - Original Sin thingee. So I'd like to hear your thoughts about this. I'm not exactly a Drow fan boy, but as I'm currently running a campaign mostly consisting of them (in my own continuity where Lloth friggin' stayed dead), I'm reading a bit more about them. And sometimes, the morality of things really is rather infantile... Note: Is this spoiler-worthy? This doesn't exactly reveal the plot, so we could continue normally... Allright, i forget the name of the novel, but it detales the complete history of the elves in Farune. In it they cover several chapters on the crown wars, ending in the high-magic that transformed the dark elves into drow. in it, they tell that the dark elves that turned to loth and were corupted were a majority faction of the dark elves known as the Illithyri, and the high magic was ment to only bannish them (the transformation into drow beeing a side effect). However, the magic inadvertently affected all dark elves, un-tainted Miyeritari. An error for which they werent terably conserned. It should be noted that the sun elves in the crown wars werent all that virtiuos eather.
Sosthenes 09-06-07, 12:20 PM	One may keep in mind that the corruption / tainting story comes from the lips of Wendonai and whether he actually tells the "truth", i.e. "canon truth" - him being (make that: having been) a fiend of corruption - is up for debate. Well, he was in I'm-gonna-kill-you-soon-but-first-let-me-tell-you-mode so beloved of cliche villains, which obviously works as some kind of truth serum ;) But yes, he certainly was exaggerating in the effect of the effect, as the dumb drow knight showed him instantly (she seriously gets on my nerves) by killing him. On the other hand, the kiira implied something rather similar. I'll have to get back to my book for that, though...
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 01:29 PM	One may keep in mind that the corruption / tainting story comes from the lips of Wendonai and whether he actually tells the "truth", i.e. "canon truth" - him being (make that: having been) a fiend of corruption - is up for debate. -I was going to mention that, too, but the Kiira that male Melarn wizard Q'whatever sort of verified what Wendonai was saying. Theoretically, though the Kiira could be lying too.
Legdiwena 09-06-07, 02:01 PM	I thought it was that Lolth tried to take over the home plane of the Elven gods and was banished and cursed and the drow with her. Eilistrae went in to exile willingly to help drow come to light, she wasn't banished like others.
MarkusTay63 09-06-07, 02:57 PM	I have given my thoughts on these issues - and argued over them - extensively on several old threads, so I do not need to re-hash them all here. Suffice it to say that ALL Dark Elves are competative; in the Illythiiri strain this went to the extreme. This is not really that foreign an idea, really - do not Gold Elves hold themselves superior to all others? So, too, did the Illythiir, and it was because of this point of contention that these two mighty sub-races fought. The reasons for the wars were inconsequential - they were just excuses to prove which was truly the superior Elf. The other sub-races got caught up in it as well, although some of the smarter ones stayed out of the way and let them kill each other (Keltormir comes to mind). The Miyeritar Elves were also competitive against the Vyshaan/Aryvandaar Elves, but their inner need to be better took the form of culture - mostly in art and magical prowess. Because they truly WERE better, the Vyshaan destroyed them. This is NOT a Dark Elven concept, apparently, but a universal one. If we cannot be better by our own talents, then we WILL be the best by destroying those who ARE better. It is the curse of the prideful Elves... and the trait is most apparent in the Gold and Dark strains. The reason why most folks only imagine the Illythiir-style Drow is because those are the ones we are most familiar with. THEY are the ones who established Bhaerynden, and spread throughout the Underdark after it's collapse. The Dark Elves of the North (Miyeritar and perhaps others) were not evil (at least, not at first), but they were VERY bitter. Many who did not participate in the Illythiir attacks were cursed, so one cannot blame them for their hatred of their surface brethren. It is interesting to note that in the histories it specifically mentions northern Drow (early on) fighting against the advance of Aryvanaar in guerilla-type tactics from underground - and even had a hand in saving Keltormir from falling to the Vyshaan. More then likely, those were the ones who were NOT associated with the Illythiir and got along VERY well with Keltormir (which hid away many of Miyeritar's citizens after the Dark Disaster). If you read Underdark very carefully, you will find several Dark Elven Realms that have no problem with surface dwellers - they are the ones that DO NOT follow Lolth, or at least are not led by her priesthood. Remeber, it was Lolth who corrupted most of the Dark Elves - they did not start out Evil (just violent).
Zanan 09-06-07, 04:35 PM	Several ... ? There is less than half a handful of drow settlements which are less hostile to anything surface - Eilistraeen places left aside. Cormanthor settlements too, as not only have they sprung into existence only with the ascendence of 3E, but also aren't exactly "open" to surfacers. If at all, they do it out of necessity. Well, while we are a demographics, it should be noted here that many currently-known drow cities have only been established 3,000 to 5,000 years after the Descent. Who knows what the drow did inbetween. Interestingly enough, given the location of Miyeritar and Ilythiir, one would expect that the more to the north you come, the more Miyeritari the blood should get. That said, we have to keep in mind that most Miyeritari died during the Dark Disaster, 500 years before the Descent. Will there be that much Miyeritari blood left? Of course, that demon's taint stuff boasted about by Wendonai and taken up by the kiira-folk ... come on, if that was taken literally, this single demon must have had more drow females in his day than a legion of succubus. How likely is that? (Obviously, one might get the feeling that Lisa read my debates with Gothic Dan about this issue hereabouts and stole the idea ... the wrong idea.)
GothicDan 09-06-07, 04:46 PM	Pretty likely, apparently. ;)
Zanan 09-06-07, 05:16 PM	Pretty likely, apparently. ;) Are you Lisa in disguise? :detect:
GothicDan 09-06-07, 05:46 PM	Believe me, if I could muster the collective attention to write a novel, it wouldn't be about the Drow. :)
MarkusTay63 09-06-07, 06:07 PM	Definition: Several = three or more. Of course there were very few Miyeritar Elves left, but the histories DO tell us that some refugees were hidden away by the Keltromir Elves BEFORE the Dark Disaster. They also tell us that for 500 years (GHotR: -9600 DR) the Dark Elves beneath the north fought against the Vyshaan and helped stop the takeover by them of Keltormir. They do not sound like bad guys to me... I do find it strange that the more violent, opressive Drow cities all lie beneath the lands that should have been held by the Miyeritar Drow. However, since there probably wasn't too many left, one can only assume that the few settlements of neutral Drow were all destroyed or taken over by the north-migrating Illythiir Drow AFTER the fall of Bhaerynden. Who knows? There may yet be a few pockets of more neutrally minded Drow around Faerūn who were NOT of Illythiir stock - The Drow of Maztica, the Maviddi of Kara-Tur, and the Akota of Zakhara are all likely candidates. Really, people need to stop confusing core Drow - who were always mean and rotten - with FR Drow, who had a VERY high culture before the coming of the Tintageer Elves. They were always violent and bloodthirsty... but what they lost was their nobility. Once they gave up any sense of honor, they were truly lost...
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 06:43 PM	Wendonai and taken up by the kiira-folk ... come on, if that was taken literally, this single demon must have had more drow females in his day than a legion of succubus. How likely is that? -I took all of that more metaphorically than literally. When Wendonai was talking about Demon taint, I took it as more of a taint of the spirit, worshipping Lolth and falling from the good graces of the Seldarine and all, rather than a physical, blood taint. Of course, the book kind of extrapolates on the latter, but I like my idea better. Are you Lisa in disguise? :detect: -Having read the novel, and knowing Dan, I think it is very safe to conclude that the two are seperate and distinct entities. -However, if you take out the 'D', 'A', and 'N' in Lisa Smedman, you come up with the following anagram: 'Is A L S Mem', which could possibly stand for 'Is a Long Standing Member'...
GothicDan 09-06-07, 08:24 PM	Is a mystery.
SgtAnjay 09-07-07, 10:55 PM	I've always wondered what effect the fact that the deity specifically designated as their patron (Araushnee) had been turned into a demon and banished had on the dark elves, culturally [I]and[I] spiritually. It had to have had some kind of effect, but I dont think I've ever seen it directly addressed. Also wonder if Corellon had thought that one quite through considering the end-fate of the dark elves.
Zanan 09-08-07, 08:54 AM	It is hard to tell whether the dark elves actually knew/know of Araushnee's time spent as a "tanar'ri". Within Realmspace, her (re-)ascendance to divinity didn't take that long and she presented herself to the dark elves of Faerūn as the goddess Lolth straight away.
Tyberian 09-08-07, 02:31 PM	Like I said in the initial spoiler, I'm not very familiar with the Crown Wars. I'll brush up on my reading. Nevertheless, that this comes up all of a sudden still seems a bit contrived. First of all, after all the time, pure bloodlines seem rather unlikely, considering that the drow don't seem to think in terms of ancient tribes anymore. Will Matron Mothers consult the lineage of their new patron before they conceive children? Also, the fact that some of your people are deceived by a demon will spoil all of your race forever seems quite, well, racist... Something that I haven't seen taken into account is the elven priests (of Illefarn or Earlann, I,m not sure) having years of continual prayers answered and the dark elves changed into drow. I always interpreted this as being the lierary version of a great epic spell with scores of epic participants and a casting time of decades. Naturally the elves overreached and the good were punished with the bad. I haven't had time to read this whole thread since returning, so sorry if I missed something already said. Also, in Lost Empires it mentioned all the Miyeritari high mages dying to cast a great work to resurrect the nation. Obviously, that was directly related to Khelbun's death, but perhaps it was more far reaching. Perhaps it was a like a scattering of seeds many of which died before the final fruition. For instance, perhaps the fluorishing of moon magic in Cormanthyr was a resurgence of the ancient Miyeritari magic arts subtly worked by the spell throughout the years. Perhaps it had a hand in the Ladystone falling from the sky (date?), and perhaps it had the effect of saving some of the dark elves from the taint when the great curse was later worked. I hope I didn't ramble too much.
Lord Karsus 09-08-07, 06:07 PM	It is hard to tell whether the dark elves actually knew/know of Araushnee's time spent as a "tanar'ri". Within Realmspace, her (re-)ascendance to divinity didn't take that long and she presented herself to the dark elves of Faerūn as the goddess Lolth straight away. -That they knew, I would think, is doubtful. When going on a job interview, you show your potential employer your strengths, not your faults. On an interview, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you, there never was, and there never will be. When 'wooing' the Dark Elves, I doubt that Lolth let on to the fact that, at some point, she was "less" than divine. Nowadays, however, I'm sure that scholars are aware.
SgtAnjay 09-09-07, 12:27 AM	Araushnee was the Dark Elves' patron. I have to assume there was a sizable church structure with attendant clergy. As their patron, Araushnee would be their spiritual touchstone. So again, what happened when she was demonized (literally) and banished? I'm not asking how Lolth became their patron, I'm asking what happened to the Dark Elves, culturally and spiritually, when their "previous" patron (she-who-would-be-Lolth) gathered the Anti-Seldarine and betrayed the rest of the pantheon?
Vulpes 09-09-07, 04:20 AM	I sort of took Wedonai's "taint" talk to mean that his descendants, which would be most of the drow since the Illytheri made up most of the original drow, are "genetically" more susceptible to his (and by extension his patron, Lolth's) corruptions and blandishments through virtue of their -- very diluted -- demonic heritage. I'm on very shaky grounds here, since I don't actually roleplay but read the books for "fluffy" stuff, but aren't tieflings usually inclined to take after their fiendish parent in terms of alignment and behavior anyway? Combine this with thousands of years of religious indoctrination and social engineering, and you get the modern "pure evil" drow. Drow with a strong Miyertiri bloodline simply don't have the "genetic" corruption hurdle to jump; sort of like a weird "lactose intolerance" kind of thing. But Illytheri elves, such as Cavastina, can still certainly be redeemed, and obviously Miyertiri drow can be as debased as any (besides Halisstra and Q'arlynd, House Melarn seems to have been a typically nasty drow house, no matter their "purity"). Of course, that demon's taint stuff boasted about by Wendonai and taken up by the kiira-folk ... come on, if that was taken literally, this single demon must have had more drow females in his day than a legion of succubus. How likely is that? Actually, I would think it fairly likely. I mean, the "man" had centuries to spread his seed as it were, and demons can be very virile. Plus, with thousands of years since Wedonai's initial forays, even a small group of offspring could have resulted in most drow having his blood in them. The last common male ancestor of most European, for instance, could have lived as recently as 1000 AD! Multiply that a few times, and his claims don't have to be all that exaggerated.
Zanan 09-09-07, 05:52 AM	Araushnee was the Dark Elves' patron. I have to assume there was a sizable church structure with attendant clergy. As their patron, Araushnee would be their spiritual touchstone. So again, what happened when she was demonized (literally) and banished? I'm not asking how Lolth became their patron, I'm asking what happened to the Dark Elves, culturally and spiritually, when their "previous" patron (she-who-would-be-Lolth) gathered the Anti-Seldarine and betrayed the rest of the pantheon? Unless I am mistaken, Araushnee was the patron of the Dark Elves within the Seldarine, but that was before her time on Toril. The Banishment was -30,000 D.R. and methinks the arrival of the elves on Toril was after that. In any case, if there was any worship of the Seldarine, we know nothing about it. Going by the description in Lost Empires, it looks more like "Araushnee" showed herself on Toril as Lolth only.