Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JaredCrowe 12-13-07, 09:18 PM	Is there a class specifically for Good Necromancers? I know of the True Necromancer but I wanted one that used the 'Good' alignment....
Phelf_Der_Zemit 12-13-07, 09:22 PM	um.. master specalist, oh well I guess that kinda works...
Green Elven Vampire 12-13-07, 09:28 PM	Is there a class specifically for Good Necromancers? I know of the True Necromancer but I wanted one that used the 'Good' alignment.... I don't know of any PRC's geared toward good Necro's, but there are a fair number of "good" necromancy spells that repel and damage undead.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:40 AM	-Mages with a 'good' alignment who practice Necromancy spells can be considered 'good necromancers'.
The_Shaman 12-14-07, 06:37 AM	Is there a class specifically for Good Necromancers? I know of the True Necromancer but I wanted one that used the 'Good' alignment.... Specifically, no. Master specialist comes closest, but even some of its abilities can usually be viewed as suspect. To what end you use your abilities is generally considered your own business. True necromancers are a particularly bad examples as they are also part clerics, and most non-evil Faerunian deities take a very dim view of anyone animating the dead. Practically the only good deities that have anything to do with it are Mystra and Sehanine - both involved in the creation of something like good liches (iirc at least Sehanine is opposed to undead in any other situation). Jergal is the only non-evil deity that I remember that could support such a necromancer, but even he will require that such aberrations are kept to a minimum, handled with care, and employed only to further the overall cause of "pure" death.
Fabius Maximus 12-14-07, 07:13 AM	I think white necromancer would focus on debuffing spells like Enervation rather than on creating undead.
JaredCrowe 12-15-07, 12:12 PM	Thats what I was thinking. One that concentrates on draining force instead of dealing with Undead.
BadCatMan 12-15-07, 07:20 PM	Necromancy also has some of the only arcane healing spells, like Healing Touch in the Spell Compendium and Book Of Exalted Deeds (can't think of the others right now). Even these involve draining your own life-force to heal another, which is surely a good act. Check out the BoED for more Good flavoured Necromancy spells. For kicks, play a Dread Necromancer (okay, it's Non-Good, but you can walk the Neutral line) from Heroes Of Horror, with the feat Tomb Tainted Soul (Libris Mortis). Use Healing Touch (obtained via Advanced Learning) to heal your party at the cost of your own health, then pump yourself full of negative energy from the DN and heal yourself to full. If you can get a wand of Healing Touch, you can outdo the Cleric for out-of-combat healing and undead control. Commanding the undead is little hard to justify though, but not impossible. Steal them from the enemy necromancer and say that you're liberating them from his tyranny then let them have their rightful revenge. When you're not combating liches but still need undead, purchase the bodies of the dead from relatives and let the deceased give something back to the community, ala organ donation or scientific research. When you're finished, let the undead to rest in peace with a full burial and honours.
Suin Bahhar 12-15-07, 07:50 PM	Mulhorandi Southern Magicians are quite good examples of good aligned necromancers. They preserve all former godkings as mummies. (I dont really know if they active all the time or at all).
The_Shaman 12-15-07, 08:50 PM	Thats what I was thinking. One that concentrates on draining force instead of dealing with Undead. Er, arguably that isn't much better. Besides, "dealing" has several meanings. Undeath to Death is a great spell for dealing with undead... permanently
Khaelieth 12-16-07, 01:41 PM	Don't Baelnorns create undead though? But they're the exception, like most elves!
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 01:53 PM	Don't Baelnorns create undead though? -Nope. Baelnorn aren't even Undead, technically.
Khaelieth 12-16-07, 02:22 PM	Could you check that? I remember something about it. And they're as undead as librarians.
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 03:50 PM	Could you check that? I remember something about it. -Like Archliches (Good Liches), Baelnorn can Turn Undead, but that's all. And they're as undead as librarians. -And, as librarians aren't Undead, neither are Baelnorn. Technically. Undead are powered by either Positive Energy or Negative Energy. That's what allows their bodies to keep on going after their souls depart. -Baelnorn are powered by the High Magic Ritual that creates them. Thus, since they aren't powered by Positive or Negative Energy, they truly aren't Undead. Deathless, or whatever it's called, it the most true-to-the-lore thing to call them, since an exact notation for what they are doesn't exist.
Stigger 12-16-07, 04:20 PM	Hate to tell ya LK, but according to Monsters of Faerun, baelnorn are undead now.
Suin Bahhar 12-16-07, 04:27 PM	Undead are created by mundane (epic) magic too. How are Bealnorn affected by cure spells?
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 04:34 PM	Hate to tell ya LK, but according to Monsters of Faerun, baelnorn are undead now. -If you read what I said above (mostly the "it the most true-to-the-lore thing to call them, since an exact notation for what they are doesn't exist" part), you'll see that I acknowledge that. If they need to be lumped into one of the type categories that exist in D&D, Undead would be the closest. However, they aren't truthfully and technically Undead. It's like being given the choice of "Reptile or Bird", and saying that Frogs are reptiles. Of the choices that exist, reptile would be the closest match. Undead are created by mundane (epic) magic too. -Baelnorn are sustained by High Magic, unlike normal Undead, which are sustained by the Positive/Negative energy infused within them. Elves that become Baelnorn don't actually die, technically, either. Small, but major, differences. How are Bealnorn affected by cure spells? -Like anyone else, they'd be cured by the Positive Energy.
Khaelieth 12-16-07, 04:50 PM	I agree with you now LK=) I was going for type, not what they actually were=)
Suin Bahhar 12-16-07, 05:31 PM	So they are uneffected by undeath to death spells. BROKEN! :P
Karsus the Mad 12-16-07, 07:43 PM	-Baelnorn are sustained by High Magic, unlike normal Undead, which are sustained by the Positive/Negative energy infused within them. Elves that become Baelnorn don't actually die, technically, either. Small, but major, differences. Something to add to that is that baelnorns can also utilize the clone spell, which requires the recipient to be living. CEoE does specifically refer to baelnorns as undead. Under the Fhaor ’Akh ’Tel’Quess ritual it also calls them undead, but also points out that they're not quite undead but not alive in the conventional sense for an elf.
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 09:37 PM	So they are uneffected by undeath to death spells. BROKEN! :P -From a rules point of view, they would be, since their 'type' is Undead. However, from a technical point of view, no, they wouldn't, since they're truly not Undead. Something to add to that is that baelnorns can also utilize the clone spell, which requires the recipient to be living. CEoE does specifically refer to baelnorns as undead. Under the Fhaor ’Akh ’Tel’Quess ritual it also calls them undead, but also points out that they're not quite undead but not alive in the conventional sense for an elf. -See, it's all very complicated. No wonder most Baelnorn are loners.
Stigger 12-17-07, 04:02 AM	Don't really care for the idea of magically sustained undead... just gonna treat them as PE Undead for all intents and purposes. Not that its ever going to come up in one of my stories...
Khaelieth 12-17-07, 08:52 AM	Let's solve it with one question... Can they have sex (and propagate!)? No! They're undead!
Karsus the Mad 12-17-07, 10:19 AM	Don't really care for the idea of magically sustained undead... just gonna treat them as PE Undead for all intents and purposes. Not that its ever going to come up in one of my stories... Since they are sustained by magic, then technically speaking, they can be dispelled...which I find to be a silly notion.
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 03:44 PM	Let's solve it with one question... Can they have sex (and propagate!)? No! They're undead! -Undead can procreate as well. See the Half-Undead template in DRAGON magazine. Since they are sustained by magic, then technically speaking, they can be dispelled...which I find to be a silly notion. -They are sustained by Elven High Magic. You can't dispel a Mythal, can you? Thus, you can't dispel a Baelnorn.
Stigger 12-17-07, 03:48 PM	No game I ever DM is ever, ever, ever going to allow a half-undead template... And actually, you can dispel a Mythal... we even have mechanics on how to do it... not easy, but it can be done.
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 04:32 PM	No game I ever DM is ever, ever, ever going to allow a half-undead template... -I wouldn't either. It was an extremely dumb idea. The premise behind it was that the mother becomes Undead while the child is still in her wobm, but it somehow continues to live, the mother somehow gives birth to it, and it somehow survives not being eaten. Give me a break... And actually, you can dispel a Mythal... we even have mechanics on how to do it... not easy, but it can be done. -Oh? Do tell. Mind you, I'm talking about Dispel Magic, or some form thereof, and not casting a spell of Mythalsight to individually rip each and every magical strand.
Stigger 12-17-07, 05:04 PM	Epic Dispel Seed, nothing below 9th level is going to do much beyond suppressing it a while, don't think even Mordenkainen's Disjunction does much beyond suppression if I recall correctly.
Khaelieth 12-17-07, 05:22 PM	-I wouldn't either. It was an extremely dumb idea. The premise behind it was that the mother becomes Undead while the child is still in her wobm, but it somehow continues to live, the mother somehow gives birth to it, and it somehow survives not being eaten. Give me a break... Not a fan of such and I ignore them alongside the half-vampire template.
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 05:31 PM	Not a fan of such and I ignore them alongside the half-vampire template. -The entire premise of being half alive and half dead makes little sense, period. The closest thing you can get is maybe having a major stroke, but even then, you're still fully alive, just half paralyzed.
The_Shaman 12-17-07, 05:35 PM	Since they are sustained by magic, then technically speaking, they can be dispelled...which I find to be a silly notion. By the same rule, you should be able to paralyze any lich with a boosted enough dispel undead that suppresses its magics (like it does for a magic item). Something like a disjunction should kill them outright. I've often wondered why the magic animating undead can't be attacked more directly. In fact, I had planned a few spells for that that a necromancer character of mine will research if she reaches lvl 10 or so... I'm sick of anti-necromancy spells targetting their will save anyway. If you're good enough to make a spell that kills undead, you can improve it to target their weak spots more effectively... like that fortitude save :)
Stigger 12-17-07, 05:36 PM	But if that's not the case, how can we get our Blood Rayne clones to work? :D You know, in all seriousness, I've never had a player actually try to pull any of that sort of crap on me... I'm starting to wonder where these people lurk that I don't ever meet them. Those are good points Shaman... ones I definitely take account of in my game. One of my players using a Sphere Mage came up with a Correspondence 3/Entropy 1/ Spirit 1/Prime 1 effect that let her hunt phylacteries and pinpoint their locations so long as she had something that connected to the lich she was targetting (preferrably a flake of skin or something like that), sympathetic resonances and spiritual connections being the base of her reasoning. I had to allow it, her reasoning was spot on with it (how can you not have a strong connection to something your soul's supposed to go into when you die?)... not that it was easy to overcome warding, but she managed it, so that was one less lich in the campaign. Once they got the hang of it, they adopted some really sneaky tactics against them, making liches relatively easy to take down by exploiting very specific weaknesses. Was a fun bit of work watching them sit in libraries and consulting sages to find out as much as they could about them, looking for that little exploitive chink in the armor. And yet they still feared hordes of goblinoids...
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 05:47 PM	By the same rule, you should be able to paralyze any lich with a boosted enough dispel undead that suppresses its magics (like it does for a magic item). Something like a disjunction should kill them outright. -Insteresting. Though, technically, should the magic be dispelled or supressed or whatever, I think the Lich's body would die, but his/her soul would return to the phylactery, since that's the source of the magic that keeps the Lich "alive". Attacking the phylactery with such methods should screw the Lich, though.
The_Shaman 12-17-07, 05:54 PM	That's right... although in the case of disjunction, you can say that something that powerful should even sever the link to the lich's phylactery just as it severs any ongoing spell or magic effect.
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 06:00 PM	That's right... although in the case of disjunction, you can say that something that powerful should even sever the link to the lich's phylactery just as it severs any ongoing spell or magic effect. -Well, with a Will Save/Fort Save. ;)
Stigger 12-17-07, 08:08 PM	Could be a Fort save if you interpret it right. As in the link is severed and the lich has to use the Fort save to keep his body from rejecting his soul and sending him into the planes for another go on the cosmic merry-go-round. But you could just as easily justify a Will save there... DM's discretion I guess.
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 08:29 PM	-Will Save, Fort Save...Whatever, whichever.
Karsus the Mad 12-17-07, 09:20 PM	By the same rule, you should be able to paralyze any lich with a boosted enough dispel undead that suppresses its magics (like it does for a magic item). Something like a disjunction should kill them outright. Liches, and other "regular" undead are created via magic, but are sustained by negative energy. At least in FR, we know that at least a liches tie to the negative energy plane aren't dependent upon magic (tho' magic may be used to disrupt that link). At least that's what I understood from that little battle with the Lichlord in How the Mighty Have Fallen. Think of them as instantaneous effects. Liches require magic to bring into existence, but don't require magic to sustain that existence. Their ties to the energy that sustains them, negative energy, are bound by their phylactery. You may destroy them, but so long as their phylactery exists, their ties to the energy that sustains them remains. Baelnorns seem more of continuous or permanent effect. Magic both creates and sustains them. They don't really seem to work on the same principles. Just my opinion of course. Oh, and I agree, casting disjunction on the lich should destroy his body. Casting disjunction on his phylactery should erase him from existence. And I believe it does, since his phylactery is technically a wondrous item.
Alediran 12-18-07, 08:35 AM	Oh, and I agree, casting disjunction on the lich should destroy his body. Casting disjunction on his phylactery should erase him from existence. And I believe it does, since his phylactery is technically a wondrous item. Just make sure to use the targeted version or stay far away from him :D.
HVulpes 12-18-07, 01:14 PM	I have a word to speak. I know that undead have been linked with evil in D&D. But in 2ed undead of the Zombie and Skeleton type were more neutral then evil. It reminds me of a certain character from a 'Pun'ic series about a wizard who soul power was the creation of Zombies. He used them as servents and aids to other people in this world. He even turned himself into a Zombie so he could out wait a curse on his true love, before a spell was used to revive him so he could marry her and have kids. He would seem to be a classic good Necromancer, so I was wondering if anyone had bent the rule so such a character would exist. Or have you created a situation where he could use his magic in peace. do you think fourth edition would allow him to exist or will necromancy still be heavily link with evil. HV
Stigger 12-18-07, 07:03 PM	I can't say I've ever viewed necromancy as inherently evil myself. I tend to subscribe to the thought that its not what you do, so much as why you do it, the Malconvoker PrC being a prime example of how that can work. Of course there are some things that can't help but be corrupting, ala the BoVD, but those are few and far between as far as I see it.
Soltares 12-18-07, 09:41 PM	Anything involving sacrificing / killing others for power (Death Knell) or bringing into the world things like Shadows or Ghouls that thrive on killing people and making more of themselves counts as evil, in my book. Skeletons and Zombies are pretty much mindless, as currently defined, and count as being disrespectful, nasty, possibly disease-spreading, etc. but not technically 'evil' in an absolute sense. If Skeletons and Zombies, which have recently been revised to be mindless, yet Evil (a neat trick!), are further revised to have an animalistic life-hating sentience, and to engage in wanton slaughter if ever released from their masters control, then yeah, evil. And given the changes between 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed and now 3.5, that seems to be where WotC is going. They just didn't really finish the thought and left Skeleton and Zombies mindless, and the Negative Energy Plane a neutral place with no alignment tendencies, which undercut where they were going. I'm not a fan of half-measures. In the games I've run I have used both options; 1) Skeletons and Zombies are mindless and not evil. Creating them isn't specifically evil, although the circumstances may be evil, and the uses to which they are put may be evil. 2) Skeletons and Zombies are evil and have Int 2. Malicious and tortured shreds of the original owners souls are trapped within their bones, and it is thought that those whose bodies are animated can sense it in their final reward and feel anguish at the uses to which their former bodies are put. Regardless of the nature of the person in life, the animation process twists and torments the fragmentary energies left, and the Skeletons and Zombies are malevolent and life-hating, and yet also despise their own existence and while they will not actively kill themselves, they will not take any action to preserve their own existence, running into vastly superior forces with no hesitation. The Negative Energy Plane is a life-hating vortex of entropy that hungers for the annhilation of all that lives. Eeeeevil! The idea of staking out some dubious and contradictory position between these two extremes just bugs me. It's a tool or it's bad. Pick one.